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Heatran (Sunny Day)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by AccidentalGreed, Dec 26, 2011.

  1. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Because it's a legitimately good individual set in its own right, and I've grown bored of Kingdra being constantly weathered by stray hazards, attacks, and Ferrothorn. Plus THAT FEEL every time it sets up Sunny Day when Politoed/T-Tar's gone.

    So yeah.

    Status: Writing

    QC Approvals (3/3): (PK Gaming) (Iconic) (Bloo)

    GP Approvals (2/2): (November Blue) (Steven Snype)
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    [​IMG]
    One Scizor dies everytime I use 160 Spe EVs.

    [SET]
    name: Sunny Day Attacker
    move 1: Sunny Day
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: SolarBeam
    move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Earth Power
    item: Leftovers / Life Orb
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Considering the existence, not to mention the popularity, of Drought Ninetales in OU, the use of Sunny Day Heatran requires some explanation. The actual purpose of this set is to not set up sun for sun-reliant Pokemon (a role Ninetales is superior in), but rather reverse the momentum of the match against opposing weather teams and conventional Heatran counters. To explain how this works, consider this: the sight of Ninetales usually prompts many opponents into keeping their own Tyranitar, Hippowdon, or Politoed alive, often leading to time-consuming weather wars. Sunny Day Heatran, however, tends to avoid these types of situations. Without the threat of Ninetales, the opponent has little incentive to maintain their automatic weather inducer, and thus, after these Pokemon have been weakened or eliminated, Heatran can instantly turn the battle around in its favor by summoning sun. All things considered, this Heatran is best used on a weatherless team, where it can disguise itself as one of its other sets and fire off powerful Fire Blasts, with and without sun.</p>

    <p>As stated before, Heatran may also win against its usual counters. As long as the sunlight is in effect, all Water-type moves are weakened and SolarBeam loses its charge-up period. These factors allow Heatran to survive powerful assaults from and retaliate against a number of counters. To put this in perspective, Timid Rotom-W's Hydro Pump, which would normally deal 99.1% - 117.6% in clear skies, will only manage 50.2% - 59.4% in sunlight. Heatran can return the favor with SolarBeam (assuming Heatran carries Leftovers), which will deal a massive amount of damage to Rotom-W even if it avoids the fatal OHKO. This situation applies to many of Heatran's Water-type counters (and also non-Water-types who use Water-type attacks), most of whom also risk being weakened by Sunny Day and KOed with SolarBeam. It should be noted that an unboosted SolarBeam is stronger than a Life Orb Hidden Power Grass, giving Heatran the freedom to choose Hidden Power Ice rather than waste it on Grass. If opposing Heatran still prove to be a problem, using Earth Power is always welcome for hitting them.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Despite what you may think, Heatran doesn't lose any notable KOs in the sun with Leftovers and a Timid nature. The Timid nature allows it to outrun and possibly KO neutral-natured Dragonite and Rotom-W, so using a Modest nature isn't particularly recommended for the extra power. Furthermore, if Heatran uses Hidden Power Ice, it does not require maximum Speed EV investment, simply because it has no way of bypassing other Heatran. An alternative EV spread is 56 HP / 252 SpA / 200 Spe, which places Heatran above all max Speed positively natured base 70s, including Breloom and, more importantly, Politoed. Another move to consider on this set is Magma Storm; Sunny Day Heatran has the the ability to use this attack more effectively than other sets because it gains the ability to trap and then KO weather inducers for its own purposes.</p>

    <p>As far as the item of choice is concerned, Sunny Day Heatran has several options. As explained above, it doesn't lose out on important KOs without specific boosting items. The recovery gained from Leftovers not only keeps Heatran healthy in the long run, but also puts it under the guise of the Specially Defensive set. Of course, Life Orb deserves a mention; the power boost, when combined with the sunlight's benefits, turns Heatran into an offensive juggernaut with few safe switch-ins. Even Blissey and Latios face a potential 2HKO from a sun-boosted Fire Blast with entry hazard support. Other items to consider are Air Balloon, Heat Rock, Expert Belt, and Flame Plate, all of which come with their own obvious benefits.</p>

    <p>Rather than question what your team can do for Heatran, ask what Heatran can do for your team. Heatran's ability to set up sun opens opportunities for Pokemon that can benefit from the elimination of other weathers and certain Pokemon. For example, with Heatran being able to lure in and KO several bulky Water-types such as Vaporeon and Jellicent, the likes of Dragonite and Infernape can start their own sweep without a hitch. Eliminating other weather (particularly hail and sandstorm) also lessens the amount of damage and recoil these sweepers take every turn. Heatran, of course, requires some support to function effectively. Using Sunny Day too early will result in a weather war, with the opponent determined to keep his or her weather inducer alive. Therefore, having a way to dispose of offensive Politoed, Tyranitar, and Hippowdon early in the game is highly recommended so the weather is in your team's favor. Reversal Dugtrio does the job fairly well; it can also trap and eliminate opposing Heatran who would otherwise threaten this set. Simply wearing these Pokemon down with Choice item-wielding attackers (such as Dragonite, Salamence, and Terrakion, among others) and entry hazards is also a satisfactory alternative.</p>
  2. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Yea, this Heatran set looks SO deadly. It's pretty self-sufficient, the Sun providing it all the offensive boost it needs to really bang up teams.

    I would probably mention Air Balloon in AC. Since Drought Teams struggle with opposing Heatran and Ground-types, Air Balloon on Heatran provides the team with a relatively safe switch into these threats.

    Good set!
  3. TrollFreak

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    I Have a question, why do you have 200 Speed EVs?

    other than that, great set, can't wait to test it out
  4. Cherub Agent

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    Yep, used this for a while and it's highly effective. But I agree with TrollFreak, what are the Speed EVs for?
  5. New World Order

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    By the way AG, I believe this is untrue. Modest Heatran with 200 Speed EVs gives you 240 Speed, whereas Modest Politoed and Adamant Breloom hit 239. I think you meant to say "outrun all neutral base 70"
  6. Cherub Agent

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    The Heatran is Timid, not Modest
  7. Mynism

    Mynism

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    If you use both Jolly and Earth Power, there's no reason to not max speed. Killing other sun team's Heatran is priceless for a sun team. Way more than having 19 extra HP imo

    Edit @ New World Order : max speed is only useful if you use Earth Power. There's no need to max speed with HP Ice if you 1. don't at least tie with Heatran w/o HP Ice because 30 speed DVs 2. can't do more than 7 or 8% to him (oshit it 1/4 or absorbs my attacks !!)
  8. New World Order

    New World Order Licks Toads
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    Lol yeah, I forgot to multiply by 1.1. Anyways, Mynism has a point. It would be a shame if you're on your ways to getting a sweep, only to be stopped cold by an opposing Life Orb Heatran or something. As well, outspeeding base 70s is a common benchmark many Pokes aim to hit, such as Ninetales. I do think that the extra bulk could come in handy for taking random Draco Meteors, so perhaps AC the 56 HP / 252 SpA / 200 Spe set.
  9. Birkal

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    Speaking of Life Orb, why no mention of it within this set? While Leftovers recovery is always appreciated, LO allows for some significant damage to get some of those Solarbeam calculations within OHKO range after Stealth Rock damage. For example, 252/4 Politoed is always OHKO'd by Life Orb Solarbeam after SR.

    To take it even a step further, throwing on Modest allows LO Heatran to always OHKO 252/0 Jellicent after SR, which is a pretty significant for Heatran. And I'm sure the power of LO Modest 252 Sun-boosted Fire Blast is very good. Throw a Flash Fire boost into the mix and I'd bet it's banking on ridiculous. These are just my thoughts; do with them as you please! I will definitely be testing out this set. I've been looking for a good secondary Sunny Day user.
  10. Cherub Agent

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    Yeah, I think Life Orb and Modest should be mentioned in AC, for the sheer power. Pretty sure Heatran can 2HKO Blissey in this manner
  11. BTzz

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    Love this set. I think you should slash Life Orb as a second option (or atleast ac). You can actually do 87% - 103% to Latios with Timid LO Sun boosted Fire Blast.
  12. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Long story short: Viva Las Vegas equals little time to respond, so sorry about the delay in reviewing the thread. I will either be glancing at this through an iTouch or making rare wholesale edits through a mini-Laptop.

    So judging from the responses, I guess the original 252 SpA/252 Spe is easier to understand and use than the (admittedly) random 56 HP spread. I'd be happy to place THAT in the AC, just because the extra 14 points does make some difference in the calculations.

    I would also be happy to add Life Orb, along with the Modest nature, to the set. I ran a couple of calculations earlier, and, to my pleasant surprise, Modest Life Orb Heatran does a whopping 45.1% - 53.1% to 252/0 Blissey, and 41.3% - 48.7% with a Timid nature. The extra power against bulky Water-type Pokemon doesn't hurt either, so both will surely get slashes.
  13. PrezEvil

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    Personally I use Volcarona with Sunny Day and Starmie with Rain Dance together on a weather-less team. It catches a lot of weather teams off-guard because they quickly send their weather Pokemon off to die at the beginning of the match and don't have many options once their weather is gone. I don't think it would be a bad option to include a Pokemon with Rain Dance (or even Hail or Sandstorm) as a teammate for weather-less teams.
  14. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
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    @Mynism: A perfect Speed HP Ice spread exists (31/30/30/31/31/31).
  15. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    This set is pretty powerful and versatile, so no objections here!

    QC APPROVED (1/3)
  16. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Thanks for the check PK.

    So thinking about it, the previous spread (56 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe) seemed a bit arbitrary when compared to all the other offensive Heatran's spreads, so I'm making 252 SpA / 252 Spe the main spread for the sake of consistency and simplicity. 56 HP will of course get a mention for a little more bulk.
  17. Bloo

    Bloo
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    Tried this out and was impressed with the results!

    QC APPROVED (2/3)
  18. Iconic

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    is modest even worth it a mention? adamant dragonite is the biggest threat in the entire game so if you run hp ice you're sitting pretty against it. also please mention duggy; you're hard walled by other heatran, and most sun teams make great use of our little triple winky friend

    good show

    QC Approved 3/3
  19. Moo

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    You should definitely include calcs against Tyranitar in the sun. I looked them up now and they were pretty impressive. Heatran can do from 80-90 percent max depending on the EV spread, but I won't paste any here, because I'm not sure that the standard spread is nowadays
  20. Magma

    Magma

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    Even with it's terrible accuracy, I think Magma Storm deserves a slash on this set. It traps incoming Pokemon and eases Sunny Day/Solarbeam predictions against other weather teams - this really comes in handy when trying to decide whether to Solarbeam Bulky Waters (Jellicent, Gastrodon, or Vaporeon) on Rain teams or use Sunny Day to negate a Politoed switch-in.

    Magma Storm also makes Taunt or Metal Sound a potential option for the final moveslot, but these status moves don't completely fit on this analysis since they turn Heatran into more of a Wall Breaker than an Attacker. However, a Wall Breaking Sunny Day Heatran pairs well with certain Sun Sweepers (Volcarona, Venusaur, Charizard, Lati@s, and Hydreigon) who benefit from the removal of Blissey, Chansey, and Auto-weather Changers, so maybe Taunt/Metal Sound can be mentioned in AC.
  21. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    After a long week of being on Christmas vacation mode, I've finally written up this thing up! Hopefully it isn't too long to go on-site, but this kind of Heatran requires many details, and this is what GP checkers are for, so...yeah. Make it better!

    As for posts above me:

    Adding these things would only mean the analysis becomes longer than it should, and while Magma Storm sounds like a decent option, I don't really want to add the other moves because they haven't been mentioned in other similar sets. I'll make a short mention of Magma storm in AC.

    I assume you wanted me to implement this suggestion when I provided calculations for Quality Control. Sadly, making a new html list of calculations, in my opinion, would only give this analysis more clutter to read through. As for stuff regarding Tyranitar, I added a "be careful" note in the AC.
  22. SOMALIA

    SOMALIA Fuck Ass Noob
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    [SET]
    name: Sunny Day Attacker
    move 1: Sunny Day
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: SolarBeam
    move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Earth Power
    item: Leftovers / Life Orb
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Considering the existence, not to mention the popularity, of Drought Ninetales in OU, the use of Sunny Day Heatran indeed requires some explanation. The actual purpose of this set, rather than setting up for sunlight-reliant Pokemon (a role Ninetales is dominant in), is to reverse the momentum of the match against opposing weather teams and conventional Heatran counters. To expand on the former, the sight of Ninetales usually prompts many opponents into keeping their own Tyranitar, Hippowdon, or Politoed alive, often leading to time-consuming weather wars. Sunny Day Heatran, however, tends to avoid these types of situations. Without the threat of Ninetales, the opponent has little incentive to maintain their automatic weather inducer, and thus, after these Pokemon have been weakened or eliminated, Heatran can instantly turn the battle around in its favor by summoning sunlight. All things considered, this Heatran is best used on a weatherless team, where it can disguise itself as one of its other sets and fire off powerful Fire Blasts, even without sunlight.</p>

    <p>As stated before, Heatran may also win against its usual counters. For as long as the sunlight is in effect, all Water-type moves are weakened, and Solarbeam loses its charge-up period. These factors allow Heatran to survive and retaliate against a number of counters. To put this in perspective, Timid Rotom-W's Hydro Pump, which would normally deal 99.1% - 117.6% in normal conditions, will only manage 50.2% - 59.4% in sunlight. Heatran can return the favor with Solarbeam (assuming Leftovers), which will deal a massive amount of damage if Rotom-W avoids the fatal OHKO. This situation applies to many of Heatran's Water-type counters (and often non-Water-types who run Water-type attacks), most of whom also risk being weakened by Sunny Day and KOed with SolarBeam. It should be noted that an unboosted Solarbeam is stronger than a Life Orb Hidden Power Grass, giving Heatran the freedom to choose Hidden Power Ice rather than waste it on Grass. Of course, if opposing Heatran still proves to be a problem, using Earth Power is always welcomed for hitting it them. (Pokemon are referred to as plural)</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Heatran doesn't lose any notable KOes in the sun with Leftovers and a Timid nature, which allows it to outrun neutral-natured Dragonite and Rotom-W. Speaking of which, if Heatran uses Hidden Power Ice, it does not require maximized Speed, mainly because it has no way of bypassing other Heatran. Investing in bulk from rather than Speed is optimal, losing too much Speed means Heatran will again have speed-related problems. A good benchmark is 56 HP / 252 SpA / 200 Spe, which places Heatran above all max speed positive base 70s, including Breloom and especially Politoed. Another move to consider on this set is Magma Storm; Sunny Day Heatran has the distinction of using this attack better than other sets since Heatran gains the ability to trap, then KO, weather inducers for its own purposes.</p>

    <p>As far as the item of choice is concerned, Sunny Day Heatran has several options. As explained above, it doesn't lose out on important KOes without specific boosting items. The recovery gained from Leftovers not only keeps Heatran healthy in the long run, but also puts it under the guise of the Specially Defensive set. Of course, Life Orb deserves mention; the power boost, combined with the benefits of sunlight, turns Heatran into an offensive juggernaut with little safe switch-ins. Even Blissey and Latios face a potential 2HKO from a sun-boosted Fire Blast with prior damage. Other items to consider are Air Balloon, Heat Rock, Expert Belt, and Flame Plate, all of which comes with their own obvious benefits.</p>

    <p>Rather than question what your team can do for Heatran, do the opposite. Heatran's ability to set up sunlight opens opportunities for Pokemon that can benefit from the elimination of other weathers and certain Pokemon. For example, with Heatran being able to lure in and KO several bulky Water-types such as Vaporeon and Jellicent, the likes of Dragonite and Infernape can start their own sweep without a hitch. The elimination of other harmful weathers (especially hail and sandstorm) also lessens the amount of damage and recoil these sweepers take every turn. Heatran, of course, requires some support to function effectively. Using Sunny Day too early will result in a weather war, with the opponent determined to keep the weather inducer alive. Therefore, having a way to dispose of offensive Politoed, Tyranitar, and Hippowdon early in the game is highly recommended so the weather is in your team's favor. Using Reversal Dugtrio is one of the many ways of doing this, and as a side benefit, it can also trap and eliminate opposing Heatran. Simply wearing these Pokemon down with choiced attackers (Dragonite, Salamence, and Terrakion, to name a few) and entry hazards is also a satisfactory alternative.</p>
  23. Salemsectra

    Salemsectra

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    Here's my grammar check. Feel free to take none, any, or all of my suggestions or PM me if anything doesn't make sense.

    Lastly, I wonder about the effectiveness of Reversal Dugtrio. You might want to mention it either gets opposing Heatran or weather inducers. How would it take out both?
  24. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Teammates technically benefit from the elimination of other weathers as oposed to the automatic weather inducers themselves. Otherwise, you certainly do know your stuff, so I'll implement most of the changes when I get a good computer.
  25. November Blue

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    Working on top of Salemsectra's excellent check.

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