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Heaven's on Fire (warning: contains CHARIZARD)

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by Sweep, Aug 2, 2013.

  1. Sweep

    Sweep
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    Hi! I am Sweep from Pokemon Showdown, here to present another Ubers team. This one involves the use of a certain fiery lizard that might be the cause of some controversy. With everyone bashing poor Charizard and talking about how unviable it is in the Ubers tier, I wanted to try it out for myself. Is Charizard universally hated because it genuinely sucks, or because it is misused by most ladder players? From what I saw, Charizard wasn’t really that terrible; just horribly outclassed by Ho-Oh and to a lesser extent Reshiram. However, I found a set that took advantage of its naturally high Speed stat and ability to abuse both SolarBeam and Fire Blast. This set, which I will describe later, allowed itself to perform a role in which it wasn’t badly outclassed by Reshiram or Ho-Oh!

    The team really centers around Specs Palkia more than anything else, as its ability to blow up walls with its ridiculously powerful STAB moves gives Scarf Dialga and EKiller an easier time to clean late-game. Charizard can OHKO threats that even Specs Palkia cannot, such as Cresselia and Deoxys-D, so virtually every pokemon in the game is immediately threatened by at least one member of my team so long the sun is out.

    I peaked at #1 on the Showdown ladder under “Charizardrulez” a week ago and am currently #3 under the alt “UbersCharizard.” I have assembled a 125-14 record under these alts and two others like it, which can also be found on the top 100 on the current ladder. Whether this record shows how good Charizard is or how terrible the ladder is, I will leave up to the reader.

    Team at a glance:


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]





    [​IMG]
    Groudon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 12 Spd / 248 HP / 248 SDef
    Careful Nature

    - Thunder Wave
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Dragon Tail


    Groudon sets the sun Charizard needs to thrive. It also reliably sets up Stealth Rock and hits frail sweepers relatively hard with Earthquake, even though it is uninvested in Attack. Dragon Tail is for phazing set-up sweepers, and 12 speed EV’s allows it to creep most Giratina-A, allowing me to phaze it before it phazes me. Despite being a specially defensive variant, Groudon easily survives a +2 Arceus-Normal Extremespeed and therefore can check it once.

    In general, I prefer Physically Defensive Groudon to Specially Defensive but this team has more difficulty taking down Special attackers, especially CM Arceus. I enjoy paralyzing them with Thunder Wave and either phazing them out with Dragon Tail or hitting them with Earthquake, depending on my remaining health. Without Thunder Wave, I would be at the mercy of monsters such as Calm Mind Ghostceus. I also dislike not carrying Stone Edge as this team is weak enough to Ho-Oh already, but I was basically choosing between Scylla and Charybdis in terms of being CM Arceus weak or Ho-Oh weak. I picked Ho-Oh because Palkia can OHKO it with Draco Meteor if Stealth Rock is up, while I literally have nothing else for CM Arceus.


    [​IMG]
    Xatu @ Light Clay
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 4 Spd / 252 HP / 252 Def
    Bold Nature

    - Reflect
    - Roost
    - Light Screen
    - Heat Wave


    I prefer Xatu to Espeon due to its Flying typing, which allows it to switch in on Ferrothorn and Support Groudon, the latter of which cannot OHKO with Stone Edge while Xatu outruns and Roosts off the damage. Heat Wave hits Forretress and Ferrothorn really hard if they choose to stay in while denting Impish Groudon and support Dialga. Because Xatu can take weaker hits, I don’t see a reason to put Focus Sash on it and opt to put Light Clay on instead. Light Screen allows Palkia to have an even easier time taking on Kyogre while providing 8 turns of support; Reflect naturally helps the team deal with physical attackers like Groudon and Zekrom. Since I am an offensive team and games often last less than 20-25 turns, these screens are around for a good portion of the match and significantly increase my chances of winning if I can get them up.

    Magic Bounce keeps Stealth Rock and other hazards off the field for as long as possible. It is a crucial ability that is necessary to have on this team so that Charizard does not lose half its health every time it switches in. Spinners often struggle to spin away hazards against the brutally bulky spinblockers found in the Ubers tier, so I prefer to use Magic Bounce. Xatu fairs well against most common SR setters but dies violently to Arceus-Ghost, support Dialga with Draco Meteor, and most Deoxys-A. I like leading Xatu against Dialga so I can set up a Light Screen before it has a chance to attack. I then switch out to Groudon to set up Sun, double switch back to Xatu to attempt to bait the SR, and finally go to Charizard if Dialga stays in and kill it with Fire Blast. Deoxys-A are very difficult to handle and SR Arceus Ghost is essentially guaranteed rocks.


    [​IMG]
    CHARIZARD!!!!! (Charizard) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Solar Power
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk

    - Fire Blast
    - Dragon Pulse
    - SolarBeam
    - Sunny Day


    There is nothing more satisfying than being made fun of by your opponent for using this thing, then proceeding to annihilate him with this. Solar Power and Life Orb means that Charizard will lose 22% of its health for every turn it attacks in the sun, but who cares when you can OHKO 252 HP Arceus, Support Dialga, Deoxys-D, and even KYOGRE in sunlight? 100 speed allows it to outpace a good portion of the metagame and speed tie with Palkia lacking a Choice Scarf. It can even 2HKO Chansey after SR, ensuring that pink blobs cannot safely switch in. Kyogre and Tyranitar both ruin its sun rampage…but they are predictable switchins and Sunny Day starts Charizard right back up again! I cannot tell you how awesome it is to slaughter Kyogre with Charizard when Ogre is cited as one of the primary reasons to never use Charizard in Ubers.

    Sadly, Charizard is still walled by Specially Defensive Ho-Oh and Heatran. An offensive Ho-Oh of my own carrying Earthquake would help vs. both of these threats, and admittedly Charizard should never be used in a Premier League/Ubers Open match. However, Charizard’s relatively high speed and ridiculous power allow it to perform admirably well on the ladder if Xatu can keep SR off the field. If Life Orb doesn’t quite suit you, Charizard can always carry Choice Scarf to outpace almost the entire metagame while retaining most of its power, though it can no longer OHKO Arceus and is now ruined by the omnipresent Kyogre. I really think Life Orb is the best set for it and hopefully QC takes a look at this J.


    [​IMG]
    Palkia @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Timid Nature

    - Spacial Rend
    - Draco Meteor
    - Fire Blast
    - Thunder


    Complete monster. It switches in on Kyogre and immediately starts spamming its powerful attacks. Spacial Rend 2HKO’s Specially Defensive Dialga that think they can switch in, while Fire Blast OHKO’s or near OHKO’s Ferrothorn, even in Rain. Thunder mauls Manaphy that try to set up, as well as Kyogre itself. Finally, Draco Meteor is just a nightmarish nuke that obliterates almost anything that doesn’t resist it/or is a pink blob. Palkia’s ability to break down walls and simultaneously check Kyogre gives it a spot on this team.

    Latios cannot check Kyogre effectively and I don’t find Latias quite threatening enough in comparison to Palkia. Credit to Aless123/HackHeMust/others for using this set effectively, thus inspiring me to try it out. It is probably the most productive member of this team and often nets 2-3 kills a game. It hates getting paralyzed by Kyogre’s Thunder though, and TWave Ogre drives it nuts.


    [​IMG]
    Dialga @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 204 Spd / 52 Def
    Modest Nature

    - Draco Meteor
    - Fire Blast
    - Aura Sphere
    - Sleep Talk


    Dialga is a great scarfer due to its resistance to priority, allowing it to revenge weakened EKiller. It also performs well against Darkrai, OHKOing it with all three of its moves in sunlight after Stealth Rock. Because all three of its moves are good options against Darky, I have no problems switching this into a Dark Void. It also removes the need to risk Magic Bouncing Void back with Xatu, which is OHKO’d by Dark Pulse if the Xatu switch is predicted. I run Modest Dialga to hit as hard as possible while still outrunning Mewtwo and below. I see no reason to go for a speed tie with other base 90 scarfs, particularly when Dialga beats most of them 1-1 anyway.

    Many players do not expect Dialga to carry a Choice Scarf, enabling it to destroy threats like Palkia and Kyurem-W. Fire Blast gives me yet another way to beat up on poor Ferrothorn, as well as Arceus-Steel. Aura Sphere helps against Tyranitar and is Dialga’s only 100% accurate move. Burn does not reduce the power of Dialga’s attacks while Dialga is immune to Toxic, so I really only need to beware of Thunder Wave in terms of status.


    [​IMG]
    Arceus @ Silk Scarf
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 64 Spd / 252 Atk / 192 HP
    Adamant Nature

    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Swords Dance
    - Earthquake
    - Shadow Claw


    Ah, Extremekiller. Say what you want about its viability in competitive matches, but it tears apart newer players on the ladder like a hot knife through butter. Its ability to quickly end matches made it a joy to ladder with. It can also kill off slightly weakened pokemon such as Shaymin-S, Darkrai, Blaziken, and random Genies. Its supreme bulk enables it many opportunities to set up throughout the match, and its three moves grant it decent coverage. Because I use a Sun team with Xatu, I do not need Brick Break to deal with Ferrothorn so I go with Earthquake to hit Dialga and Fossils harder. It also OHKO’s Heatran, which gives this team significant problems. Extremespeed is self-explanatory and with a Silk Scarf equipped, it can OHKO a large number of Ubers pokemon after a Swords Dance boost (including Kyogre, Palkia, Kyurem-W, Mewtwo, and others). Since I do not have Spikes support, Lum Berry is simply too weak and fails to garner crucial KO’s. I do my best to keep EKiller safe from status but it can be easily crippled by Will-O-Wisp. 64 speed EV’s outrun Adamant Rayquaza, as well as other EKiller than attempt to outrun Adamant Rayquaza. Hue.

    EKiller is so strong, that it has very few checks/counters! Only Skarmory, Giratina-A, Giratina-O, Scarf Dialga, Terrakion, Arceus-Fighting, Arceus-Ghost, Support Arceus with Will-O-Wisp, Kabutops, Sableye, Omastar, Hippowdon, Physically Defensive Kyogre, Groudon, Quagsire, Forretress, Lugia, Landorus-T, Bronzong, and Dusclops can hope to check this beast. I sadly cannot bring Arceus out until these threats are weakened or killed L. EKiller struggles against better players in general so if you are unfortunate enough to draw a skilled ladder player, be very wary of brining in EKiller too early in the match. Even against good players, EKiller can potentially revenge kill and do decent damage, ensuring it is not dead weight. I like it more than a lot of people because it does perform fairly well against offense, arguably the best team archetype. It has a lot of problems against stall, though it might be able to attempt a late sweep if it is the last pokemon standing.


    Threats to the team:

    Heatran-Offensive scorches Groudon with Overheat while defensive walls most of this team, especially if it carries Air Balloon for Groudon.

    Ho-Oh-I cannot beat it. I can speed creep Groudon some more and give it Stone Edge, but none of its current moves are really expendable.

    CM Arceus-If Groudon is dead or badly weakened, this is troublesome.

    Scarfed Dragons-I have no Dragon resists. These are troublesome, though can also be used as set-up bait for Arceus late-game.

    Good players.



    In theory, a Specially Defensive Ho-Oh with Earthquake would solve most of my problems, and would allow Groudon to use Stone Edge over Thunder Wave since I wouldn’t need Groudon to cripple CM Arceus. But what fun is that? If I can fix or at least lessen these issues without replacing Charizard, please let me know! Below is a pastebin of the team. I will also post replays when I get the time.


    Edit 1: Copy & Pasted wrong moveset for Xatu, oops. Actual team: http://pastebin.com/eex11Gak

    Edit 2: Replays!

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-39450015 vs. Dante Grimm
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-39289552 vs. Hugendugen
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/joimslab-ubers-269 vs. AnikRahman
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-39766354 vs. Chillarmy
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-39302238 vs. AlexanderCtr
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-39448628 vs. 1-800-CRY-MORE
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-42446681 vs. saix721
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-40563020 vs. Master Leon
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-40323598 vs. T0rch3d
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-40557022 vs. cuntology
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-42113209 vs. Xcellofantastico
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-42113986 vs. manetbo
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers-42075853 vs. Frillssss
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
  2. mesweepsta

    mesweepsta

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    Just putting this out there, very few checks and counters should not be followed by a really long list of checks and counters. I counted 19
  3. Chillarmy

    Chillarmy

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    js this team has taken down some top players like hugendugen and the legendary chillarmy, so this isn't a troll post

    that said, have you considered running scarftran > dialga and cm rockeus? together, they can check the good cm arceus types, ho-oh, and the former gives you a dragon resist as well as a second sun abuser. kingdra becomes a problem at this point, I guess, but specs is the only good set and you can probably play around that if you're smart; seems like a good tradeoff imo.

    p.s-just use moltres
  4. peacaroo

    peacaroo

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    You could consider running Mewtwo in place of Arceus. I know it doesn't beat Arceus-Ghost one on one but it can prevent the latter from setting up, since Psystrike does around 60%. It can revenge kill most CM Arceus forms that are sitting at less than 60%, or dent them so Dialga can clean up afterwards.

    Mewtwo can also hit Ho-Oh hard.

    I would hesitate doing that though, since Ekiller is just too good against noobs.
  5. Sweep

    Sweep
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    That was sarcasm, EKiller has many checks (though some are admittedly loose).

    And thanks chillarmy and peacaroo, Scarf Heatran is something I would like to try.
  6. Paul L.

    Paul L.

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    If ur going to run scarfed Heatran, I recommend using Latias instead of Palkia. Heatran and Latias have absolute sync (Heatran resists all of Latias weaknesses, while Latias resists all of Heatran's weaknesses)
    The heck I don't even think they have a neutrality together, which probably shows how effective this combo really is, imo.

    Edit: Rock I feel stupid now.
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
  7. apt-get

    apt-get platinum happy
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    Rock
  8. Sweep

    Sweep
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    I copied and pasted the wrong set onto Xatu! Oops, I edited the OP and changed Xatu's set to Dual Screens+Heat Wave+Roost.

    Paul L, I need Palkia for wallbreaking or else stuff like Specially Defensive Giratina-A become a nightmare :(. Thanks for the rate though!
  9. moonbase

    moonbase

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    I have never beat this team without hax before. Shows how much I suck at ubers. : (

    You can add this team to the list of NU pokemon that you have peaked with : ]
  10. Donkey

    Donkey

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    congrats you put an NU poke on a team with Swords Dance Arceus-Normal - which no one ladder knows how to handle
    lousy918, Furai, Blue Jay and 2 others like this.
  11. Sweep

    Sweep
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    gdi donkey don't spoil the secret to foiling the ladder.

    (in other news, OHKO'ed a support Fightceus with Fire Blast)

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