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Heavy Offense

Discussion in 'Stark Mountain' started by Sprinkles, Sep 24, 2009.

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  1. Sprinkles

    Sprinkles

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    Introduction

    Hey Smogon. This thread is to enlighten the users here of the selling points of heavy offense. Here's how it is-mostly everyone uses bulky offense or stall. Heavy offense is designed to destroy either one of them. A well made HO team will completely annihilate any other team without a reliable scarfer, priority user, or very sturdy wall. Even if the opponent has a scarfer or priority user, a well made team will have another mon waiting in the wings to set up and sweep. Scizor Bullet Punched your Salamence? Send in Agility-gross. Zapdos destroying your Metagross? Send in DDTar(more and more HO teams utilize this.) These are just a few selling points of HO, but wait, there's more!

    The Future of HO
    My good friend Stathakis believes that HO is headed in the direction of utilizing water types. Packing offensive and defensive power alike, they make a great asset to any team. In HO though, multiple water types means breaking down the lone bulky water on your opponents team, and eventually sweeping. Generally teams do not have more than 1 bulky water(except in the case of stall, when Gyarados and Swampert are often seen together.) I believe Stath's prediction is correct, as Roserade is becoming one of the most common Pokemon out there. Roserade sets up Toxic Spikes, which are absolutely required for a hard-hitting Empoleon or Gyarados to sweep. As Roserade sees more use, so will water types.

    Prediction vs. Thinking
    Bulky offense utilizes prediction more than anything. HO uses thinking. What are the differences you may ask? Well, you HAVE to know when to sac the right Pokemon, at the right time. HO takes time to learn because it's difficult to think long-term for most people.


    Conclusion
    Simply put, Heavy Offense is one of the most lethal, yet underrated team styles out there. You wear down similar counters, and sweep. HO is one of the most simplest team types to use, but requires long-term thinking. Prediction is rarely required here. After all these selling points, won't you give HO a try?


    Edit: I was going to put in Stath's link to his ho thread, but he edited it out and it's not there anymore. =[

    2nd edit: Here's an example team of your basic heavy offense.

    Azelf @ Light Clay
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 Spd
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Reflect
    - Light Screen
    - Taunt
    - Stealth Rock
    ---
    Salamence (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast
    ---
    Infernape (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Blaze
    EVs: 252 Atk/6 Def/252 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Close Combat
    - Flare Blitz
    - Stone Edge
    - Swords Dance
    ---
    Gyarados (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Waterfall
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake
    ---
    Lucario (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Inner Focus
    EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Close Combat
    - Crunch
    - Extremespeed
    - Swords Dance
    ---
    Metagross @ Life Orb
    Ability: Clear Body
    EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Meteor Mash
    - Agility
    - Explosion
    ---
    Infernape's spot can be a few things, it's irrelevant. Tyranitar, Kingdra, and Scizor could all go in that spot.



    Stathakis wrote this for those wondering:
    What is the goal of heavy offense?

    In short, to minimize prediction. That's it. Good players don't like to predict. On a day to day basis, you may be a good player, and you may lose to 5 idiots due to getting outpredicted. Prediction leaves too much up to chance rather than skill, since the less skilled can beat the more skilled. So we, the more skilled, prefer to remove it from the game whenever possible. Heavy offense is a way to do that.



    How do we minimize prediction?

    The quickest, most apparent way to remove prediction is to not switch if that's possible. Switching entails a few things. You give your opponent a free turn to do whatever they want while you switch. The more turns that pass without your pokemon using moves, the less you get done, the more that gets done to you. Not only that, but you have to predict correctly in order to not just give up a turn. Additionally, if they use the turn to set up without any cost to themselves, it's bad news. You also have to pack unnecessary bulk on your team if you are switching, since you are taking more hits, lessening the amount of hard-hitting mons you can have. So, the less we have to switch, the better. So why do we switch in pokemon anyways? We switch because we can't threaten things, or there are faster things out that threaten us. Things like ddgyara that has gotten his dds in, +2 sdluke, agilipoleon that's in torrent range with a substitute up and +2 speed, those things threaten darn near everything, and are often fast enough to not be threatened by faster stuff. Setup sweepers are the staple of heavy offense. Setup sweepers don't have to switch after killing mons since they are free to use whatever move they want, unlike choiced sweepers, which we want to stay away from whenever possible. Choiced sweepers bring prediction into that game by being locked into a move and switching often. What this means is that choice scarfers are out of the pictuer completely, except in very very rare occasions when the team is so horrendously mean to stall that it can beat it without using the scarfer at all. Without choice scarfers, aren't we vulnerable to stuff that we would normally revenge kill? how do we deal with the ddgyaras and ddmences? Well, if you can't revenge kill it, don't let it set up. How do things set up? When we switch. so if we use hard hitting mons that ohko near everything, nothing can set up on us. DDgyara may ohko every mon on the team if he gets in a dd, but if he cant get a dd due to every single mon on the team ohkoing him, he's not a problem.




    So if we don't switch, what do we do when things threaten us?

    Most of the time, we will let the mon die. Just sacrifice your pokemon. The reason for this is that when you sacrifice your pokemon, you not only cripple what's out most of the time, you also let any pokemon on your team come in with zero damage. This means that if you have lots of resistances on your setup mons, you can bring in one that isn't threatened by whats out, forcing the opponent to switch. The free turn that we get from the opponent switching is key. This free turn is what allows our sweepers to be so dangerous and not have to switch away from stuff. Oftentimes you'll kill two or three pokemon in return for the pokemon you sacrificed. Once your sweepers are set up, usually you can just sacrifice and get the next mon in, using the free turns to set up, kill more mons, and then sac for the next guy to come in. It is very difficult for the opponent to stop this kind of momentum, and you almost always win without having to predict.




    You aren't seriously telling me that it's THAT easy, are you?

    No, I'm not. To be able to constantly be killing mons with your setup sweepers, their counters have to not be present. Well how do we keep their counters from being present? Again, the answer is in the sacrifices. If you have built your heavy offense team well, your sweepers have good offensive synergy. In other words, they are all walled by similar things. In pokemon, people often don't carry more than one or two counters to the same thing. Doing so is a waste of space and limits the amount of pokemon they can counter. So if five of your pokemon are walled by blissey, you can sacrifice one to cripple her, and the rest can have a party.




    Well what else do I need to do to make it work?

    Teambuilding is a paramount step. It's what's going to win you your games. If you don't want to use prediction to win, you need to predict and longterm think like a cool person. But no amount of good playing will make up for a bad team. These are a few things you need to keep in mind when building a HO team.

    1. Offensive synergy - you need this, or else any team will be able to beat you, take away your momentum, and stop you cold. after that, your sacrifices are useless and you're absolutely disheveled. With heavy offense, there are plenty of chances to regroup (five mons that can sweep a whole team), but often if you have to you aren't dealing damage fast enough. regrouping from hax is easy (by comparison to other teams) because you just bring the next guy in. regrouping from getting stopped by a wall is not so easy because generally your team is bad and you haven't built it right. if you've built your team with good offensive synergy, walls won't stop you.

    2. Resistances - these are needed in order to keep up the momentum after you've sacced. If you don't have anyone who has the resists to take advantage of the enemy mon that is out, how do you expect to get free turns? Every mon on the team should be able to force switches. If you can help it, they should all have very good resists as well, so you can continue the momentum. You can continue momentum using threatening mons that force switches on their own, such as infernape, but it's much more difficult to keep up the momentum against scarfers if you don't pack good resists and decentish bulk. In fact, they walk all over you if you don't have resistances and bulk. These resistances are often overlooked by people playing HO and seperate the great ho teams from the ok ho teams.

    3. Win conditions - every pokemon on the team should be able to sweep on a moments notice. This way, nothing has to switch out, since they are all the sweeping type of offensive mons. In addition to that, it's ok to sacrifice yourself into a deep disadvantage (5-2 or 5-1) and then win. of course, if you are making that many sacrifices, you ought to have the whole game planned out move for move and know for sure you will win, otherwise you will surely lose. Having lots of win conditions means that you have lots of pokemon that might murder the enemy team. In other words, a winning team matchup against nearly every different team. In addition, lots of win conditions that can kill multiple mons at a time are the only way for you to be able to sacrifice, or else you are losing mons faster than you are killing enemy ones.

    4. Threatening pokemon - If you carry threatening pokemon, you don't need to switch. If gyara can't come in anywhere, so what if he wins if he gets a dd. He's never gonna get it. If you carry a team full of threatening pokemon, nothing will ever wall you to the point where you have to switch, meaning you'll... not have to switch

    You guys can refer to this thread for some good discussion about an example of a ho team.






    Longterm thinking.

    Any idiot can steal a team. How you play it, however, is what seperates the best from the rest. It's very difficult for me to explain longterm thinking to those who haven't played chess. Basically, it's an acquired skill. It takes practice. Basically, from turn one, you have to be looking at what's on the opponent's team. Deciding what's better to use early game, what's better to use late, what you can sacrifice and what you should keep. Once you've grasped the concept (when I have access to shoddy I'll eventually update this thread with logs of me analyzing the game on a turn-by-turn basis so you can see what I mean), there is only one way to improve this skill, and that is by playing lots and lots of heavy offense or heavy stall (or chess, if you're cool enough). A favorite activity of mine when I'm teaching my tutees to play heavy offense is going into their matches and saying "game analysis," at which point they tell me everything about the match: what mons the opponent has left that can stop which mons on the tutee's team, what mons can sweep most easily, what needs to be weakened, and how the tutee intends to win the game. this type of thinking should be done during every turn of every match in order to constantly know what's happening and how you are going to win. As you do it more often, you get better. You make fewer mistakes. That's about all I can tell you. Longterm thinking is only teachable in the beginning. There are no magic words that I can tell you to make you good. You just have to do it, and do it a lot. That's about all I can tell you.





    Heavy Offense Today

    In this section I will share some thoughts about where heavy offense is headed. I believe that the future of heavy offense lies in the water type. No, not those fearsome dragons or fighting types that hit so hard, water types. The reason? Their stabs have excellent offensive typing, hitting everything in ou save grasses, frail dragons, and fellow waters for at least neutral damage. In addition, water types are generally very bulky and have excellent defensive typing (there are also a lot of handy high powered dual-typed waters like kingdra, empoleon, gyarados, etc). They generally learn strong ice moves to complement their water STABs and hit everything their stabs cant for supereffective damage, with the exception of other waters, though players rarely carry more than one or two and even then they are, with the exception of rest suicune, easily neutered by toxic spikes. Water typed attacks are also massively boosted by rain, and many of them also have the ability swift swim, making lots of sweeping possibilities for lots of water typed pokemon. The most common weather changers get hit by water attacks for supereffective damage as well. The excellent bulk and defensive typing while at the same time just as good offensive typing makes waters very hard to wall. In addition, the only things that wall waters are easily neutered in the beginning in the game by toxic spikes, making it doubly hard on the opponent. For these reasons, I think that water attacks are the future of heavy offense, which was originally solely based on hitting from one side of the physical/special spectrum.




    In conclusion

    Heavy offense is very demanding in the way of teambuilding, because everything has to be perfect to work in the most possible scenarios. It also is demanding in the way of longterm thinking, because while there is SOME room for error (when you have good team matchup), you can't get anywhere if you don't play it right. anybody who tries to play the teams I tell them to play will tell you that. However, prediction is not even needed at all. In addition, it is by comparison much easier to deal with bad luck than with other types of teams, due to the large number of win conditions on the team (remember, there is no team impervious to hax, but these teams makes it a teeny bit easier to beat). These two factors make heavy offense a much, much more consistent and reliable way to win for those skilled enough to use it. In addition, once you get the hang of it, you can win just as easily against good players as against ladder idiots, making it a very formidable weapon in tournaments where the players are better (meaning they can break stall).
  2. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

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    In the prediction vs thinking I think you missed a huge point: Risk vs Reward. Risk vs. Reward is probably the most important thing when playing heavy offense IMO.
  3. Sprinkles

    Sprinkles

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    Ah ok. Thanks for your input Heysup, I'll be sure to edit that in when I get an oppurtunity.
  4. Justinawe

    Justinawe

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    I have used Hyper Offense teams many times, and have always had a lot of success with them. The main benefits of the team come from when you use a team that is either mostly physical or special. Stath's Greek RMT is a great example of abusing moves on the Special spectrum. For the physical side, a team of Azelf/Lucario/Gyarados/Salamence/Metagross/Kingdra is able to help wear down its counters. When you have lures taking care of pokemon that wall your other pokes, there is a great chance you will be successful with the team. Another great thing about them is that prediction isn't needed as much as you may think. As long as you can think ahead and see the opponent's team, you won't have to worry about heavy predicting.

    All in all I enjoy HO teams, as they take care of many threats while being very fun to play.
  5. Sprinkles

    Sprinkles

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    Yea I looked over his RMT while writing this. Great team.
  6. Anachronism

    Anachronism

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    Thank you for starting this.

    People know frighteningly little about Heavy Offense. I have had huge success in Ubers with Hyper Offense and moderate success in OU too. It is a completely viable strategy, but it takes a LOT of long-term thinking to do correctly. I have to say though that I don't always sac things. Since people almost always stop predicting by the end of the game, I start to make small, obvoius predictions. For example, if a gliscor comes in on lucario, I will almost always go to Mence/Gyara in the late game since my opponent will see me sac things right and left and will assume I will sac again.

    When playing Heavy Offense, the game is brought down to a more basic level without constant prediction in a similar yet opposite way that stall allows you to predict little. The difference is that HO takes plan-making skills. Instead of predicting, you instead make game-winning plans multiple times. Every time a move misses or some type of hax occurs, you have to go back to the drawing board. It is a skill that takes time to develop.

    The most classic example of HO is the Dual Screen Azelf, SD Lucario, DD Kingdra/Tyranitar, DD Mence, Agiligross, SD Scizor/DD Gyarados team. Tyranitar, as sprinkles said, is great for coming in on Zapdos, who is a sort of problem poke for the rest of the team. Electric is not a type that the best physical sweepers resist and Zapdos also happens to wall a great deal of the team. There are ways around it though. Any set is beaten by a member. The Defensive ones are beaten by Gyarados Stone Edge while the Offensive ones are taken out by Lucario Extremspeed, so there are ways around it, assuming you can force it out and then force it to come in again, but that isn't always possible.

    Anyway, I urge everyone to try the team. It is a lot of fun and takes a completely different skillset than normal teams to use effectively.

    EDIT: Oh wow, a lot of people posted before me before I could finish typing this lol
  7. Sprinkles

    Sprinkles

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    Anachronism summed it up very nicely.
  8. chenman333

    chenman333

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    Offense is like water; it must flow without inhibition. Like water in a damn, it needs to constantly provide pressure on the opponent; force them to be either idiotically ballsy or make the "right" choice. With pressure, you heavily influence their decision, allowing you to make powerful moves that can dictate the match keep pressure and momentum on your side.

    Your pokemon need synergy to keep this flow and pressure; having similar counters, complementing each other's weaknesses, etc. are vital to the success of heavy offense.
  9. Quaily

    Quaily

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    One time I tried putting together a team thinking what if every poke on it could sweep an entire team? So I combined a bunch of set up super offense ones:

    jirachi
    salamence
    latias
    infernape
    lucario
    gyrados

    with all of them holding life orbs except jirachi, and mence lucario and gyrados could set up with DD/SD. The success never really materialized though. It was a couple weeks ago so I forget exactly why. It could be the team was flawed, I didn't apply the same reasoning that the TC did by combining like types to wear down counters. It's prudent to expect most teams to have a counter to salamence so you can't just bring it out and sweep. Water has the advantage that three highly used ones counter their only 2 weaknesses(swampert and gyrados/empoleon)

    That or I'm simply not good enough to make such a team work. I definitely would not classify myself as one of the pros. My stratagy boiled down to bring in the best counter to whatever they had out, set up, and attempt to sweep.
  10. akarias

    akarias

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    Heavy offense is very powerful, no doubt. I currently used a specially based one based off of CM+LO raikou and suicune to overwhelm the opposition. However, I do not think we're going to be going into a water-based metagame.

    No, this is not because water isn't a fantastic attacking type. Suicune's +1 hydro pump demolishes pretty much everyone. No, obviously waters are all very bulky. Gyara, suicune, and empoleon are all proof of that. It's just that there aren't that many good water offensive types for each type. Gyara's pretty much the only good offensive physical threat. Kingdra's...meh outside of raindance just because he's too balanced. Swampert's too tanky for true hyper offense. Then on the special end you have suicune who's awesome but then empoleon who's very inflexible. More importantly, unless you're as awesome as suicune other waters get walled heavily by vaporeon.

    For those who don't know heavy offense, I'll show you my retired team. It's again, Hyper special offense. Lead physically bulky roserade, scarftran, scarf-rotom, CB scizor, CMLOcune, CMLO raikou. Try it out, I'm sure you'll find it very satisfying and effective.

    BTW the BIGGEST problem hyper offensive has to overcome isn't blissey for specially based ones, gliscor for physically based ones, or anything other than that. The biggest problem is STATUS from bulky offense. status prevents you from even saccing the guy you want to. Status prevents your setup sweeper from going anywhere. Thus to beat status you want to a) prevent them from getting off status, from the momentum of hyper offense, and b) have someone absorb most status. For instance, in the team I put above, scizor takes twaves from blissey/celebi, etc.. The team doesn't mind WoW, and the bulky roserade (no it's not suicide) absorbs toxic spikes. Status is without question the #1 thing that upsets the flow of hyper offense.
  11. Quaily

    Quaily

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    Well if we brainstorm a bit about team make up of a water based one the 4 easy ones would definitely be swampert, gyrados, kingrda and empoleon.

    Some other water options would be milotic, suicine, ludicolo and vaporeon, but they don't fit all that well into an offense team. From what I understand milotic does have a good rep in UU as a life orb sweeper with it's coverage. A scarfed version of it or suicine could be decent too since they have such good coverage. Ludicolo is neutral to water and grass and has a decent sp attack. Maybe you could include raid dance to up the power of your water move sweepers? that could be interesting, since the team doesn't fall flat on it's face without the presence of rain.

    For non water types could have something like tinkerbell celebi or jolteon to absorb attacks as well, specs jolteon hits ludicrously hard and absorbs electric attacks. Celebi walls water/electric and can absorb status with dishing out big hits with leaf storm.
  12. The Plant

    The Plant

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    I have some rather specific questions, since these are puzzling me when i play it ( I had tyranitar/scizor/gyra/salamence/lucario).

    A) How do you deal with lead metagross
    B) How do you deal with staus (Say wisp rotom)
    c) Who do you send on double switches (say Lo kills somebody)

    Also the complicated question, doesn't choice scarf present a serious problem.
  13. Sprinkles

    Sprinkles

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    A) taunt it, reflect it, sr it, light screen it in that order
    B) sacing Pokemon, knowing which can take it and still win the battle
    C) well you have to determine that with long-term thinking

    Choice scarf users are one of the banes of HO unfortunately, really you just have to set up and hope you outspeed it when it comes in.
  14. familyguyman

    familyguyman

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    I never got into HO mainly because whenever I got out predicted, I couldn't safely switch anything in and I was basically boned. I get nervous when I don't have at least one extremely safe switch in to most situations.


    To me, HO is do or die. Either you overwhelm the opponent rather brutally or you are playing catch up the whole time.


    Too risky for my likings.
  15. Quaily

    Quaily

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    To go along with your multiple water types I put together a team of:

    dual screen azelf
    physical swampert
    DD gyra
    3 attack agility empoleon
    rain dance kingra
    tinkerbell celebi

    and it's working so far(I got over 1300 for the first time ever), but it doesn't really feel like 'hyper offense'. Everything is super slow until I get the necessary set ups of rain dance/dragon dance/agility. One thing I can say though is empoleon is a complete beast. Hydro pump's shaky accuracy has cost me 2 sweeps, but at that point I have already taken out 2-3 pokes, including whatever water counters they have, and victory is assured. Torrent hydro pump in the rain with a life orb can only be described as pain. It OHKOs practically everything.
  16. Wyzra

    Wyzra

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    Fans of heavy offense should try NU, where this style can really shine. That is because there are few powerful priorities and all walls are beatable (Dusclops, Lickilicky, Quagsire, etc...instead of Blissey, Rotom, Swampert).
  17. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    Not necessarily. You can send in a Poke that resists or doesn't take much damage from the Choice attack. In HO, DD Tar would be a good choice to revenge kill Jolteon.

    Perhaps this is one of the reasons that Water-types are becoming so common, and are so good on HO. They are very hard to OHKO without a super-effective attack (and they have only two weaknesses). This means they can use that turn of survive to set up and then prepare for a sweep. For example, Jolly Gyarados can get a DD on Scarf Heatran and then sweep.

    It is easier to set up on your opponent's attack if he is unable to get their SR up, as your Pokemon retain a proportion of their HP. In the Heatran example, Gyara can get two DDs up if SR is off the field (barring priority attacks and if you're you happy with using 3 attacks (this isn't a bad thing; you can lure out Scizor and set up on it, or otherwise, Gyarados has done its job if it dishes out three strong attacks)). Depending on your opponent's team, it may be far easier to stop SR from being set up than with any other team. When leading with Azelf, it has a fast Taunt, and your opponent will have to respond quickly to the sweeper that comes in guarded with DS or after Azelf's Explosion. The rest of the team applies strong offensive pressure, and there is no time for your opponent to set up SR, or he risks a game-breaking sweep.

    Worse case scenario against Scarfers is that you'll have to rely on priority attacks. Like revenge killing Jolteon with Lucario's Extremespeed if Tyranitar is gone. It's not as good as the other method, as you miss out on your chance to get a stat boost, which hinders your ability to sweep. For example, Lucario really needs that SD boost to net many important OHKOs. If you're using a Special HO, you're very limited in priority attacks (NP Ape's Vacuum Wave is probably the way to go).
  18. Sparko

    Sparko

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    wow I've been waiting for a thread like this to be made for quite a while now... I'm a heavy offence player, or used to be, before Rotom-a became the #5 OU Pokemon, frankly its burns and overall decent coverage against HO with t-bolt/discharge made me put heavy offence away for a while though deep down I know its my style as I hate making predictions.

    I think I can contribute abit to this thread seeing that I've played this style in the past. Firstly, when facing lead metagross, you use reflect, then taunt, then stealth rock, then retreat/light screen, never use taunt first as it can 2hko you with bullet punch/meteor mash and you'd have done nothing with azelf except taunt :/ secondly, NEVER use choice scarf pokemon on a HO team as it give your opponent time to set up! (looking at those people who posted teams with scarfs on their teams :/) unless its lead jirachi/uxie with trick...

    Another thing, try to avoid using explosion on metagross, this will either result in a switch to a ghost type which will make his sacrifice fruitless and moreover, using explosion leads to you and your opponent sending out your pokemon randomly, which can lead to a bad match up based on lucky, and throw off your momentum (which is vital in such teams) thunderpunch is viable over explosion...

    now, to the more interesting part of my post, and at the same time, the most pedantic... threats of physical heavy offence (I've never tried special but from what I've heard the Greek RMT isn't viable anymore as its walled by latias, so some team changes may have to be made) Gliscor, Swampert, Hippowdon, Skarmory, Celebi and Rotom-H all threaten heavy offence, really badly. The first 4 are just hard as hell to take down and 3 of them have recovery moves, which is really bad as you can't wear them down easily, and they can roar/whirlwind you away rendering stat ups useless. I have found "temporary solutions" for such pokemon in my HO teams though they are far from perfect. Firstly, to take down celebi/rotoms, tyranitar is almost a must in such teams as it acts as a special absorber to things like zapdos and latias as well, apart from hitting celebi/rotom for super effective with its stab move. Keep in mind that scarf latias will outspeed all your team, rendering stat ups useless, which means 2 things: don't stat up at the beginning of the game, but attack hard to wear down things (personally I spam Waterfall with gyarados since it offers the best coverage, except against something like vaporeon, in which case I either send out scizor/metagross/lucario, stat up and hit whatever comes in) and secondly, if the opponent sees you DD'ing with your pokemon, s/he is bound to send out their scarfed pokemon, which threaten and offer HO teams opportunities at the same time. So here's what you should normally do: attack with your first pokemon (gyara in my case), if the opponent sends out rotom/scarf latias send out tyranitar, stat up on the switch since scarf latias doesn't really threaten tyranitar even if its faster (surf does like 45% if timid iirc, alot less with screens) your opponent will probably send out scizor to stop t-tar, in which case you hit it with fire punch (if you use babiri tar) and if they send out gliscor/hippo/skarm/swampert keep hitting it hard (and hope stone edge keeps aiming xD) they will keep EQing you till t-tar dies so you have to wear them out. Next, send out either scizor to Swords dance up and get rid of skarm/swampert/gliscor or just hippo really hard with gyara. The key is to keep hitting hard, not gaining stats with DD/SD, because at the beginning of the game your opponent is going to try and phase you, so if you keep the pressure up even their recovery moves will be useless.

    Regarding teams: my personal favourite was this:

    DS Azelf/Encoreape
    DD Kingdra/DD Gyara
    DD Salamence
    DD T-Tar (helps against rotom, personally I use babiri-tar since scizor is spammed nowadays)
    SD Lucario
    SD Scizor (helps against gliscor/swampert/skarmory/hippo alot)

    Now, onto my final words (hopefully I was abit fruitful with my post), firstly I would like to thank you sprinkles for posting this topic, as it might re-fuel my liking of heavy offence ^^ secondly, I have some questions that hopefully you or some experienced HO players (looking at you Stathakis/Reyscarface :P)

    Is heavy offence still viable nowadays with all the rotoms around here?
    Is there a better solution to rotoms? (I tried heatran to absorb wow)
    What is the best HO team you used in HO? (is it the one you posted?)
    Did you make it to top 50 on shoddy with a HO team? (off topic question but I was just wondering xD)

    Thanks, cheers, and hope my post was abit productive ^^
  19. monkymeet

    monkymeet

    Joined:
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    Though I wouldn't completely suggest it for the entire team, but tossing in more than one Band user will throw people off, especially since most wouldn't do it. It allows for said heavy attacks without the need for setup, especially once you start getting hang of the opposing team and their counters.
  20. Sprinkles

    Sprinkles

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2009
    Messages:
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    Is heavy offence still viable nowadays with all the rotoms around here? Yes, Infernape can absorb WoW and survives thunderbolts with screen support.
    Is there a better solution to rotoms? (I tried heatran to absorb wow) DDTar with Lum Berry perhaps but should come in after it kills something.
    What is the best HO team you used in HO? (is it the one you posted?) Nah, that's just the generic HO team used by everyone. Very simple, and effective. Stathakis uses a lot of water teams now. xD
    Did you make it to top 50 on shoddy with a HO team? (off topic question but I was just wondering xD) I haven't, not sure about Rey, and Stathakis is always getting haxed to get too far. His highest is maybe top 50 or 40.
  21. Sparko

    Sparko

    Joined:
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    I guess I could try out ape along side metagross so that latias won't wall the team too much... Thing is, I don't like relying on screen support too much nowadays, which is why I use encore-ape as a lead to give me the advantage/serve me as a late game killer if it doesn't die but like I said, physical ape could work :)


    I guess its a matter of killing scizor or killing rotom (I use babiri-tar)


    ah I think I know which team you're talking about then, he used to use venomoth as a lead, then bronzong as support and the rest were kingdra, empoleon, gyarados and sub charge rotom to lure in tyranitars and smack them with hydropump =] I hated relying on low accuracy moves with such a team but I didn't know he still used it...


    thanks for answering my questions dude ;) I'm re-trying my old HO team and its 8-1 so far, but I'm yet to face a decent player...
  22. Objection

    Objection

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2008
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    5,695
    The problem I have with heavy offence, especially the example team in the OP, is what do you do when something starts spamming Toxic/Thunder Wave? These two statuses will spell the end of any heavy offence team, and indeed any team without at least one status healer. Even having a dedicated status absorber like Crocune or Guts Machamp is not a complete solution because then you have to predict a status move and immediately send in your status absorber, losing all your Salamence's Dragon Dances.

    Unless you run a sweeping Celebi with Heal Bell or something similar, pure heavy offence will fall to a combo of Toxic and Thunder Wave.

    Adamant DDGyara after 2 Dragon Dances 2HKOs max/max Skarmory after Stealth Rock without a boosting item.
  23. cmurph

    cmurph

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2009
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    If you're a fan of heavy offense play ubers! Heavy offense is easier to use there than any other tier I think. The set-up sweepers are out of this world powerful, and can usually break through any bulky team with virtually no prediction, and very little effort. Wobb support makes this even easier because your opponent can't destroy you with status moves. Just send in wobb, encore, and safeguard, and your sweepers get in for free. Another thing thats nice about ubers is that an all-special team can break through blissey without resorting to risky exploders or even mixed attackers.

    Anyway, you guys should all try heavy offense. It is my favorite style of play by far because its so fast paced and fun, and you don't have to get into the guessing game that is prediction.
  24. Aeroblacktyl

    Aeroblacktyl The pizza doesn't scream in the oven! LOL!
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL + WCoP Winner

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    lol uh................you sure as hell better put something creative/unorthodox in here or it'll just revert to the days of dual screen deoxys-s->gliscor pass and whoever gets off their taunt first wins pretty much
  25. Sprinkles

    Sprinkles

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    Yea stathakis used venemoth as a lead for one of his teams. Simple, albeit effective. Also, aeroblaktyl, I find HO underappreciated so I'm just trying to spark some discussion!
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