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Pokémon Heliolisk

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by gsumbreon, Oct 14, 2013.

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  1. gsumbreon

    gsumbreon

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    [​IMG]
    Heliolisk
    General Information


    Pokedex Number - [695]
    Types - Electric/Normal
    Base Stats- 62 HP / 55 Att / 52 Def / 109 Sp Att / 94 Sp Def / 109 Spd (Serebii)

    Abilities
    Ability 1 - Sand Veil: Raises evasion in sandstorm
    Ability 2 - Dry Skin: Reduces HP if it's hot. Water restores HP.
    Hidden Ability - Solar Power: During sunshine, the Pokémon’s Special Attack raises to 1.5 times but HP decreases every turn.

    Moves:
    Level up:

    Eerie Impulse
    Electrify
    Razor Wind
    Quick Attack
    Thunder
    Charge
    Parabolic Charge

    Mud-slap
    Thundershock
    Bulldoze
    Volt Switch
    Thunderbolt

    TMs/HMs:
    Toxic
    Hidden Power
    Hyper Beam
    Light Screen
    Protect
    Rain Dance
    Frustration
    Thunderbolt
    Thunder
    Return
    Dig
    Double Team
    Sandstorm
    Rock Tomb
    Facade
    Rest
    Attract
    Low Sweep
    Round
    Focus Blast
    Charge Beam
    Giga Impact
    Flash
    Volt Switch
    Thunder Wave
    Psych Up
    Bulldoze
    Rock Slide
    Dragon Tail
    Grass Knot
    Swagger
    Sleep Talk
    U-Turn
    Substitute
    Wild Charge
    Dark Pulse
    Confide
    Cut
    Surf

    Potential Movesets:
    Heliolisk @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Dry Skin
    Nature: Timid/Modest
    EVs: 252 Sp Att/ 252 Spd/ 4 HP

    -Thunder/Volt Switch
    -Surf
    -Grass Knot
    -Hidden Power Ice


    Despite the nerf to auto-weather, Heliolisk can serve as a solid hit-and-run choice user in the rain. Thunder at 100% acc, boosted Surf, Grass Knot to deal with the likes of Gastrodon, and HP Ice to take on dragons. 109 speed outspeeds most Pokemon that aren't holding a scarf, and it will tear holes in your opponent's team. Volt Switch is also always a great move on any special choice user, which is a viable option if you don't mind the power drop.

    Heliolisk @ Leftovers
    Ability: Dry Skin
    Nature: Timid
    EVs: 252 Sp Att/ 252 Spd/ 4 HP

    -Thunderbolt/Parabolic Charge
    -Surf
    -Grass Knot/HP Ice
    -Substitute

    Similar to the choice set, but with a slightly different purpose. Substitute to block status and debuffs, then fire off attacks with the safety of your sub. As with the previous set, this set is best with rain support. Parabolic charge can be used in conjunction with a Life Orb if you really want, but the power drop isn't something I'd recommend.

    I'm sure there's a way to take advantage of his Sp. Def, but it would be vastly inferior to what I've listed here.

    Here's a pokemon that I didn't expect much from at first, but I used anyway and immediately began to see potential. Its Sp. Att. is respectable, and it has movepool options that make a lot of Electric types jealous. If gen VI follows similar paths to gen V, then Dry Skin and Solar Power will be the only legal choices for abilities, which will make rain or sun support preferable. Dry Skin also lets it switch into the likes of Jellicent or choice-locked Keldeo without issue. In the upcoming metagame, immunities to Water and Ghost are certainly positive traits to have. What do you guys think? Lower tier powerhouse or solid OU revenge killer? Or just trash altogether?Charge
    Parabolic Charge
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2013
    deathwreaker, Hyota and Lord Ghetsis like this.
  2. Cabol

    Cabol

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    I can see Heliolisk acting like a special variant of Toxicroak in the rain. Set up a sub, pending on what other moves become available set up a boost or start dropping massive attacks. Not 100% sure how viable these sets will be anymore though with weather gen abilities being nerfed to 5 turns.
  3. Vitiel

    Vitiel

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    Might Focus Blast be a decent enough option on this guy, despite the shoddy accuracy?
  4. Magnemite

    Magnemite arceus with wings
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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    Don't forget about Volt Switch, which is great on almost any Choice set. For some reason, Heliolisk's stats are much lower on Showdown all of a sudden, with its Special Attack and Speed being lowered to around 105. Whatever its actual stats end up being should determine whether or not it will be worth using, as it will have to compete with Thundurus-T, Jolteon, and most likely Thundurus-I for a teamslot in OU.
    Aragorn the King likes this.
  5. Erionn

    Erionn

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    I'm pretty sure it still does. There is even an NPC in game that says Thunder is 100% accuracy in rain.
    Mjolnir128, Slashari, Hyota and 4 others like this.
  6. gsumbreon

    gsumbreon

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    Didn't notice it on the TM list, I'll add it now.
  7. TEzeon

    TEzeon I'm a ramblin gamblin dude!
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

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    I like Heliolisk quite a bit! He has a ton of tricks up his sleeve, and the seemingly bad Normal type actually helps him out against Gengar and Aegislash, so its not half bad. I can see him being a replacement for Rotom-W on aggressive rain teams due to his superior speed and offenses, and the fact that he can absorb Water moves rather than needing to tank them like Rotom-W does.
    Sir Lemongrab likes this.
  8. Fundance

    Fundance

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    This thing is straight up beastly, imo. For starters, with Dry Skin it gets an immunity to both ghost and water moves, meaning that it can come in on Jellicent, not have to worry too much about being burned, and get a free heal off Scald (effectively negating stealth rock damage with a well-predicted switch thanks to Dry Skin).

    It gets Surf to cover ground types trying to ruin its day, and can learn Volt Switch coming off 120 base special attack, making it a powerful scouter. It also is immune to Azumarill's Aqua Jet, though it has to fear all other kinds of physical priority. Since we are definately going to see a lot more of Azumarill, the fact that it can safely revenge kill Azumarill without needing to worry about Aqua Jet has to speak for something.

    And then there's Solar Power...where Parabolic Charge will be able to keep it healed and negate the constant HP drain while being boosted significantly. Combine it with electric terrain if possible and it's a powerhouse right off the bat on a sun team that's also capable of destroying rain setters.

    edit: this post is outdated information, stop liking it people.
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2013
  9. bluemon

    bluemon

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    I just find it amazing that he has the abilities to abuse the 3 most used weathers.

    Why not use solar power in the sun?

    with the moveset of

    nature power (if it learns it, which i think it would)
    thunderbolt
    hp ice/fire
    grassknot/volt switch

    i think it can perform decently well in sun teams
    ness64 likes this.
  10. Fundance

    Fundance

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    You can also try to use the solar power version on a rain team as a way to combat sun setters. It still benefits from rain because it gets a boost to Surf and an accurate Thunder. It has Grass Knot to deal with Swampert and gastrodon, and Electric Terrain stacks with other weather conditions, allowing it to have pseudo stab regardless of whether sun is up or not.
  11. Setotus

    Setotus

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    I decided to breed a Heliolisk my self, and encountered an issue.

    It seems like its base stats ARE NOT 120 in Special Attack and Speed, but rather around 100. My Heliolisk at level 10 with a Timid nature, unknown Sp.A IV (but definitely alright), 31 IV in speed (confirmed), only reached the following stats in Sp.A and Speed:

    Special attack: 28 Base 120 Neutral natured pokemon with ZERO IV should reach 29...
    Speed: 31 Base 120 Positive natured pokemon with 31 IV should reach 35...

    It looks like Heliolisk Does have around 100 in both of these stats, unfortunately. I had high hopes.

    NOTE: EV's are NOT significant in these calculations.
  12. Fundance

    Fundance

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    That's a shame, but still it's not exactly terrible, considering all the other perks it gets. Solar Power Heliolisk in the sun is going to hit really hard for something with base 100 speed.

    I've been noticing that priority tends to screw Heliolisk over a bit though. Especially since it has no answer to Mach Punch or Vacuum wave.

    As much as I don't personally like doubles, Electrify on opponents combined with a partner who has lightning rod or volt absorb could possibly interesting. It makes the opponents moves electric for the turn its used, so they'll be attracted to the lightningrod user.

    I have a modest heliolisk, lv 47 right now but unknown IV's. I'll try doing some checks myself when it gets to lv 50 just to make sure. Just for immediate reference though, his special attack and speed with max SP attack and speed EV's is 161 and 142 respectively. Likes to relax (so its offense and speed IV's could be bad for all I know)
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2013
  13. ABNDT

    ABNDT

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    This is most strange: I am trying to evolve my Helioptile, but the Sun Stone "won't have any effect." Perhaps Helioptile can only evolve during the day?

    Nope, I just forgot it was holding a Everstone.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2013
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  14. BROloom

    BROloom

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    My level 56 Hasty Helioptile with 252 special attack and speed has...

    151/72/62/167/115/196.

    That implies a base sp atk of around 100-110 depending on IV's (I remember them being higher rather than lower) and a base speed of 109 (it has 30 speed IVs). Rather a shame, it's not really that fast or that powerful.
  15. Fundance

    Fundance

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    So it's stats are looking more like Mismagius rather than starmie. That is a shame, but again it's faster than Toxicroak and has better defense on the special side. It's also faster than Meinshao and hits harder in the sun. So at the very worst it'll be great for switching in on slower ghost pokemon and water types, then getting out with Volt switch. Solid UU material at worst.

    110 ish on both categories is respectable, especially if you factor Solar Power.

    Anyway, here is my Heliolisk. I used a reset bag to check its stats without EV's for simplicity's sake.

    Lv 50 Heliolisk, Modest nature, no EV's, unknown IV's. (likes to relax)

    HP: 134
    ATTACK: 59
    DEFENSE: 57
    SP.ATK: 137
    SP.def: 103
    Speed: 119
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2013
  16. Aura Flare Riolu

    Aura Flare Riolu

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    According to Serebii, Heliolisk has 62/55/52/109/94/109 stats. It's still pretty decent.
  17. Fundance

    Fundance

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    Frail lizard is frail.

    I think either way we can expect it to die horribly to mach punch and priority moves other than Aqua Jet in general. I wonder if it can learn Electric Terrain as an egg move? Unlike Toxicroak it doesn't have Sucker Punch to get it out of tight spots nor does it get bulk up or calm mind...then again it's faster, hits harder and can enjoy volt switch. I can't see it being OU but it has a definate niche on OU sun teams. If only it had some way to deal with grass types outside of HP Ice and a way to boost.
  18. Copes

    Copes

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    I use a Jolteon on my Gen V sun team, and I've been toying with this guy as a potential replacement.

    Thinking something along the lines of:

    Heliolisk @ Lifeorb
    Ability: Solar Power
    Nature: Timid
    EVs: 252 Sp Att/ 252 Spd/ 4 HP

    -Parabolic Charge
    -Surf
    -Grass Knot
    -Volt Switch


    Under Drought, with Life Orb, this thing should hurt. Has solid coverage (Rocks, Grounds and Bulky Waters beware) and can heal Life Orb damage with Parabolic Charge. The Solar Power + Life Orb multiplier excites me.
  19. Fundance

    Fundance

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    Now factor the boosts from Electric Terrain + Sun + Life orb. Heh.

    Parabolic charge is abyssmally weak though, at 50 base power. It seems intended to be used in doubles where it can hit multiple targets. I can see it being great for healing off life orb damage, but using it is going to require some finesse in singles.

    under the sun, it's essentially an electric, slightly more frail charizard that doesn't have to worry about stealth rock quite as much and gets owned by mach punch and fire moves. I think it'll see some use as a revenge killer on sun teams for sure, but not so much as a sweeper.
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  20. Robert Alfons

    Robert Alfons The Lord's Favorite
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    Solar Power + Life Orb = suicide

    Seriously, Heliolisk would kill itself in 5 turns in the most fortunate cases. If entry hazards are on the field he'll die in 4 turns. I'd rather use Choice Specs or maybe Scarf to keep it around for longer while providing a more significant boost. Also, Parabolic Charge is too weak to KO stuff, even with Solar Power and Life Orb factored in, and due to its frailty it means that he'll die even faster, ironically. Surf would also be kind of redundant considering you're running it under sun, meaning Surf will become weak as hell. I'd rather use Thunderbolt over Parabolic Charge and Volt Switch or HP Ice over Surf (either a way to scout and maybe avoid Solar Power damage, idk, or better coverage)
  21. Fundance

    Fundance

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    yeah, Surf is for Dry Skin heliolisk only. For sun teams you'll want Hidden Power.

    I would probably run specs too rather than life orb, but I'm not prepared to write off Parabolic charge just yet. If it can be used to revenge kill certain targets (or force them out) it can still drain enough to heal off the damage from life orb and hazards at least, especially if boosed further by electric terrain.

    As a partner for Heliolisk, there's got to be something that can safely set up Sunny Day and Electric terrain...Manectric perhaps? Lanturn? That's assuming Lanturn gets ET.
  22. Copes

    Copes

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    Valid points. I completely disregarded the damage associated with Solar Power as well. Sorry about that. Not thinking. Would Parabolic Charge be too weak to cover this damage? Perhaps only if you successfully land a super effective hit, otherwise you're doing more damage to yourself than its worth? Have only really started thinking competitively over the past few months so I apologize for being unable to provide any calculations. Still learning.

    And yeah I do suppose surf is redundant. My thought is that with the changing weather mechanics, its not unlikely to think that the sun will have downtime. You're right though, it is silly to use a valuable move-slot on a move that is weakened by the core strategy of the team. Nice for coverage, but doesn't really fit.
  23. Urza

    Urza

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    wouldn't hp fire be better for sun teams against grass types? or does the hp ice coverage hit required things?
  24. Fundance

    Fundance

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    HP ice allows you to deal with slower dragons I guess, who otherwise resist fire and electricity. And you can bet that Goodra is going to show up and ruin your day, especially if you're up against a rain team.

    With 109 base speed, it barely outspeeds the likes of Garchomp, Salamence, Dragonite and Flygon before a boost. If they're going to switch in on you, may as well hit them as hard as possible.

    The fact that it misses out against matching speed tiers with Gengar, Latis, Espeon, Froslass, Arceops the Genies by 1-2 points is infuriating though.
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2013
  25. Robert Alfons

    Robert Alfons The Lord's Favorite
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    It's quite possible that 109 isn't completely accurate and that it does have a base speed of 110. All the base stats that have been calculated so far are not completely true as far as we know. I'm gonna go ahead and assume that its base speed will be 110 in reality because fuck numbers that aren't dividable by 5.
    Sir Lemongrab likes this.
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