Helioptile (QC 2/3)

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Overview
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  • Has a niche thanks to Solar Power and Electric typing
  • Can hit 24 Special Attack in sun with max investment
  • Resists Flying attacks and threatens Fletchling, Vullaby, and other Flying-types that give sun teams trouble
  • STAB Volt Switch is great
  • Normal typing grants it a handy immunity to Ghost-type attacks, but an unfortunate weakness to Fighting-type attacks.
  • Limited offensive movepool
  • Bad defenses
  • Outclassed by Chinchou without sun

Offensive
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name: Offensive

move 1: Volt Switch
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Dark Pulse
move 4: Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Fire
ability: Solar Power
item: Choice Scarf / Berry Juice
evs: 84 HP / 12 Def / 192 SAtk / 12 SDef / 200 Spd
nature: Modest / Timid

Moves
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  • Volt Switch helps keep momentum, in and out of sun. It can help safely bring in Chlorophyll users to sweep or Vulpix to set up sun.
  • Thunderbolt is Helioptile’s strongest option in sun, and gives it a chance to sweep when the opponent is weakened.
  • Dark Pulse is Helioptile’s strongest coverage move, hitting Misdreavus for super effective damage.
  • Hidden Power Ground and Hidden Power Grass give Helioptile super effective options for Chinchou, which otherwise walls this set. Hidden Power Ground hits Magnemite, while Hidden Power Grass hits Ground-types.
  • On the other hand, Hidden Power Fire gives Helioptile near-perfect coverage (only Deino not hit neutrally). It is boosted by sun (which is essential given its low base power) and hits Grass-types hard.
Set Details
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  • This set Helioptile a chance to sweep late game and also function as a revenge killer.
  • Although Helioptile has decent speed already, with a Choice Scarf, Helioptile outspeeds the entire unboosted tier. It also doesn’t mind being locked onto a move much because of Volt Switch and its lack of good secondary options.
  • The listed EV spread maximizes Special Attack and Speed. The remaining EVs are used to boost Helioptile’s defenses.
  • A Modest nature is recommended because Helioptile needs all the extra power it can get, but with a Timid nature, Helioptile outspeeds +1 Adamant Carvanha.
  • Between its poor defenses and Solar Power recoil, Helioptile can rarely afford to take a hit. Berry Juice can be used instead to improve Helioptile's ability to switch into Flying-type moves.
Usage Tips
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  • Doesn’t hit as hard as other sun abusers, so recklessly hurling off Thunderbolts at the start of the battle is inadvisable.
  • It is best used early in the battle to deal some damage while maintaining momentum and to take out specific counters.
  • It can be difficult to switch Helioptile in safely, but making use of immunities to Thunder Wave and Ghost-type moves can pay off. A VoltTurn core can also prove useful.
  • Important to keep sun up, as Helioptile is very pedestrian outside of sun.
  • Choice Scarf allows it to revenge kill faster threats like Misdreavus and Ponyta.
  • Can perform as a late game sweeper if opponent’s team is sufficiently weakened.
Team Options
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  • Vulpix, Larvesta, and Ponyta are good teammates, as they can set up sun for Helioptile.
  • Chlorophyll users like Oddish, Bulbasaur, and Bellsprout appreciate Helioptile’s ability to threaten Fletchling and Vullaby.
  • Knock Off support gives Helioptile a chance to sweep. Mienfoo is always a good option, and forms a VoltTurn core with Helioptile. Vullaby is another fantastic choice, as it can switch into the Ground-type attacks that threaten Helioptile. Vullaby can also use STAB Flying attacks to threaten Timburr and Croagunk, U-turn to form a VoltTurn core with Helioptile, or Defog to eliminate Stealth Rock for Vulpix and Fire-type sun abusers.
  • Archen, which has an immunity to Ground-type attacks, can also use Defog to eliminate Stealth Rock for your team’s Fire-types. It also carries Stealth Rock, which can help wear down Flying-types, as well as Knock Off and U-turn. With Archen as a teammate, there is less pressure on Helioptile to take care of Fletchling.
Other Options
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  • Life Orb is an option to improve Helioptile's damage output, but it doesn't appreciate the extra recoil damage and lack of speed.
  • Surf is unfortunately weakened by sun, but is a good secondary option outside of sun.
  • Helioptile gets another solid ability in Dry Skin, which allows it to switch into Water attacks and threaten with STAB Thunderbolt/Volt Switch, but Dry Skin sets are mostly outclassed by Chinchou.
  • Helioptile also gets U-turn, which works against Ground-types and Chinchou.
  • Parabolic Charge is basically an Electric Giga Drain that could theoretically help offset Solar Power recoil, but it's far too weak.
  • Only LC Electric type to get Sandstorm, which could theoretically be useful since it threatens Water-types and has Volt Switch.
  • Helioptile also gets Sand Veil, which could be useful on a Sandstorm set or alongside Hippopotas.
  • It gets two decent status moves in Glare and Toxic, but because of its poor defenses, Helioptile needs to spend most turns attacking.
  • Gets Agility, Charge Beam, Rain Dance, Thunder, but outclassed by Chinchou.
  • Has some decent physical moves (Wild Charge, Rock Slide, Dragon Tail), but horrible Attack.
  • Basically nothing else is really viable because defenses suck, speed isn’t awesome and special attack isn’t anything special outside of sun
Checks & Counters
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  • Ground-types can switch in to prevent Helioptile from using Volt Switch. Diglett in particular can trap and KO Helioptile (as well as Vulpix).
  • Not only does Chinchou outclass Helioptile, it also walls the hell out of it unless Helioptile carries Hidden Power Grass or Ground.
  • Goldeen, Blitzle, and Electrike can all switch in on Helioptile's STAB and pick up a stat boost.
  • Bulky Normal-types like Munchlax, Lickitung, and Porygon can take any attack from Helioptile with relative ease.
  • Grass-types resist Volt Switch and Thunderbolt, but must be wary of HP Fire. Snover, which gets rid of sun, gets special mention. Foongus, which can switch in repeatedly thanks to Regenerator, is another notable example.
  • Fighting-types can KO easily with STAB Fighting moves, although none of them enjoy switching into STAB Thunderbolt in sun. Timburr and Croagunk deserve special mention because they can switch in and hit with Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave.
  • Anything with priority can do a good chunk of damage to Helioptile before taking a hit.
 
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How is a dry skin set outclassed by chinchou as for one they usually run volt absorb I believe second of all dry skin gives health in the rain, helioptile also gets a rain boosted surf, thunder and other moves that make it better in the rain then the sun but that's my two cents
 
Ranger Mike
Here's my assessment of Dry Skin Helioptile.

Dry Skin Helioptile only has two advantages over Volt Absorb Chinchou in rain: its immunity to Water attacks and the HP recovery from Dry Skin. Neither of these is significant for the following reasons:

1) Volt Absorb Chinchou still resists those same Water attacks, while having an Electric immunity that I would argue is more useful, given that most rain abusers are weak to Electric attacks.
2) Dry Skin Helioptile in rain would regain only 2 HP per turn (unless you heavily invest in HP), which isn't particularly helpful for something with such bad defenses.

Chinchou, on the other hand, has superior defenses and typing, gets STAB on Surf and Thunder, and has access to a number of other good attacking options (Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Dazzling Gleam). The only niche Dry Skin Helioptile really has over Chinchou is that it has access to Dark Pulse and can switch into Ghost attacks. I don't think this merits using it over Chinchou, especially since Chinchou's Hydro Pump hits Misdreavus as hard as Helioptile's non-STAB Dark Pulse.

However, I will give Dry Skin Helioptile another look to see if I can find a set worth using. If you have one to suggest let me know.
 
Fair enough helioptile has the versatility for both IMO but solar power after testing I have deemed is better however what really pisses me off is the fact that helioptile doesn't learn solar beam
 

Corporal Levi

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Would HP Ground warrant some use over HP Grass, since it beats magnemite and weakened Pawniard while also hitting Chinchou? I'm not sure how important ground types are at the moment.
 

Rowan

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good analysis tbh, not much to say, here goes:

TEAM OPTIONS
-'Chlorophyll users like Oddish, Bulbasaur, and Bellsprout appreciate Helioptile’s ability to threaten Vullaby' <-- AND FLETCHLING! :)
-mienfoo can voltturn and provide knock off since helio is kinda weak
-mention larvesta can take on fighters, for it specifically timburr and gunk who have prio - you can mention vullaby can do this + u-turn core as well

OTHER OPTIONS
-u-turn mention higher up since it can provide utility in the fact it can switch around without worrying about ground types
-mention sand veil if pairing with hippo or something

CHECKS AND COUNTERS
-other electric immunes alongside chou like goldeen and blitzle
-grass types don't care much for helio's moves, stuff like foongus can switch in etc... just watch out for hp fire/ice


QC 1/3
 
Corkscrew: I put in all your suggested changes. (I added a little blurb for Knock Off generally, and put Mienfoo/Vullaby in there).

Corporal Levi: First off, Thunderbolt hits Pawniard harder than HP Ground does and HP Fire is plenty effective against Magnemite (as long as sun is up). I personally think hitting Ground types (even without Gligar around) should be the priority, since they stop Volt Switch. I do think you have a point though, it could be helpful to have something that hits both Chinchou and Magnemite. I don't want to slash 4 things on the HP line though (especially since HP Fire is really the only one worth using). I think I'll put in HP Ground in place of HP Ice.
 
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•Glare is the best paralysis move in the game now, but with Gligar gone it's hardly better than Thunder Wave.
Even if 1 major Pokemon is gone, Thunder Wave is still inferior. Thunder Wave has 0 advantages. Not only is it blocked by Ground types, but it also triggers Volt Absorb & Lightning Rod.
 
I think Hidden Power Ground is an absolute must due to Chinchou walling the hell out of basically any Helioptile set. Additionally, I somewhat successfully ran a Berry Juice set that works similar to Chinchou with horrible coverage BUT can use Solar Power. I think I used Volt Switch / Thunderbolt / Hidden Power Ground / Toxic. Works better as a Sun team Acrobatics taker than the Scarf set, at least mention it.
 
The thing with HP Ground (or HP Grass) on the Scarf set is that even if you predict the switch, HP fails to OHKO even the frailest Chinchou, so your opponent can just switch out and now you're locked onto a 60 BP non-STAB move, which isn't going to do much regardless of Solar Power. I'll switch the order to put Ground and Grass first, but I'm probably going to leave HP Fire there just because it's so much more respectable when Sun is up.

I'll add something about the Berry Juice set, but I'd like to try it out first. Just out of curiosity, why Toxic and not Dark Pulse?
 
Honestly, Toxic as a last ditch effort against something like Calm Mind Spritzee. Dark Pulse can probably used, U-turn can probably even be used. Substitute too. It just has basically no use for that last moveslot because it has no real good options.
 
Okay well I've been testing BJ Helioptile and here's what I've found so far:

-Definitely better than the Scarf set
-Volt Switch/Thunderbolt are obvious
-I never ended up using HP Ground and HP Grass. They're just too weak. Besides, Chinchou isn't really a big deal for sun teams because it's destroyed by SolarBeam and even loses to Fire-types with sun up. I found U-turn was the much better option, since it lets you switch out to something like Bulbasaur and put your opponent in a tough spot. I think U-turn is a must.
-I think Glare is best in that last spot, mostly because of Diglett. Diglett can be very scary for sun teams, since it can trap and KO Vulpix (in addition to Ponyta, Bulbasaur without sun, etc). Glare gives Helioptile a way to cripple Diglett for the match. It's situational, but I think it's better than HP Whatever or Dark Pulse. Toxic might be useful on another team, but my team was too offensive for it to be worth much.

I think I'm going to leave the Scarf set there too, just because Scarf Helioptile can also serve as a revenge killer (which is nice in case sun runs out), but I put the Berry Juice set first.

I'm sure there are some mistakes in there since it's way too late but I'll fix them sometime later.
 

Celestavian

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Mention that Electric-types are still immune to Glare, in case there are people out there that believe that Electric-types are only immune to Thunder Wave and not paralysis itself (like me, before today).

Otherwise, this is good.

QC 2/3
 
Alright this has been approved and all but the first set seems literally 100% terrible and I kind of just want it to go away.

I really just want the second set on the analysis, with item slots. Kind of like this...


move 1: Volt Switch
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Dark Pulse
move 4: Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Fire
ability: Dry Skin / Solar Power
item: Choice Scarf / Life Orb
evs: 84 HP / 12 Def / 192 SAtk / 12 SDef / 200 Spd
nature: Modest / Timid

That's how I would do it, the first set seems pretty terrible and I would need some incredible convincing to want it on the analysis. IMO what I've posted is all Helioptile's got going for it.
 
Can you tell me why you think that first set is so bad? Have you used it at all?

The problem with any non-BJ Solar Power set is that you can't guarantee even one safe switch into Fletchling with sun up. Fletchling's Acrobatics does 10+ damage 7 out of 16 times, which gives Fletchling a 2HKO (and a guaranteed 2HKO with SR). That means you're basically negating Helioptile's most useful resistance. The ability to switch into Fletchling is invaluable for sun teams. After Bellsprout/Bulba/Deerling/whoever netted a KO, my opponent frequently brought in Fletchling to revenge kill for obvious reasons. The Berry Juice set allowed me to bring in Helioptile and then Volt Switch (or U-turn) right back into my Chlorophyll mon to make the best use of the remaining turns of sun.

So what advantages does Helioptile have over other Fletchling switch-ins (not to say that you can't use more than one, I think Archen's a great teammate)?
Archen: Unless you're running U-turn, you're going to have to double switch to get your Chlorophyll sweeper back in. And Helioptile's sun boosted Volt Switch is going to do a lot more than Archen's U-turn anyway (plus Volt Switch actually KOs Fletchling, whereas U-turn does not).
Chinchou: Helioptile deals more damage thanks to Solar Power. Furthermore, U-turn gives Helioptile an option if your opponent has Diglett/Chinchou/whatever. Also Helioptile isn't stopped from Volt Switching by Porygon.
Magnemite: U-turn lets you get away from Chinchou/Diglett, and Helioptile isn't OHKOd by Fletchling's Overheat. Aside from that Magnemite is basically better.

So it's a very small niche, but I think it's by far Helioptile's best one. If you're using Vulpix/Chlorophyll sweeper, you're going to be at a huge disadvantage against FletchDig. It's going to be hard to set up sun because of Vulpix, and then hard to sweep under sun because of Fletchling. Berry Juice Helioptile is the most effective answer to this in one team slot, countering Fletchling without sacrificing offense or momentum. (Plus Helioptile actually does lure Diglett, nobody expects their Ground-type to get paralyzed and most people don't expect U-turn).

Look, I understand that first set looks weird. When Heysup first mentioned it, I was also skeptical. But I find it hard to justify any other set.

First of all, for the choice of ability, why would you ever use Dry Skin? I mentioned this in a post earlier in this thread, but I don't see a single reason to use a Dry Skin Helioptile set over Chinchou. It's basically just like using Chinchou with Water Absorb and HP Ground (which is just worse in every way). Am I missing something?

Now assuming Helioptile is being used with sun:

Life Orb: The problem with Life Orb is that it can't switch into anything. Fletchling can 2HKO. All the other relevant Flying-types besides Vullaby outspeed and OHKO. It has a Ghost immunity, but it fails to OHKO Misdreavus even with Dark Pulse and is 2HKOd by Dazzling Gleam or HP Fighting. Resistances to Electric and Steel aren't anything to write home about, especially when the most common Electric move is Volt Switch. So basically, unless you bring Helioptile in on a predicted Thunder Wave, you're going to have to make a concerted effort to bring it in safely. That's just not worth it when you could just use a Chlorophyll sweeper (or even Solar Power Charmander) instead. Electric STAB just isn't that good, since it only hits Flying types and Water types super effectively. Most Flying types outspeed, and the most common Water type is immune to Electric attacks, so there just aren't many mons that Helioptile hits hard enough to OHKO. Unless your opponent lacks an Electric resist, there's a good chance you aren't even getting one KO, and even if s/he doesn't have an Electric resist, you're just going to get revenge killed by something faster or something with powerful priority. If you're going to go to the trouble of using Heat Rock Vulpix (because without Heat Rock Vulpix, Life Orb Helioptile just sucks), you might as well use something like Bellsprout, which can actually make good use of sun. In my eyes, the only niche LO Helioptile has is that it can OHKO Vullaby (which Solar Power Charmander can also do).

Choice Scarf: In my opinion, the Scarf set is far better than Life Orb because it can at least perform as a revenge killer and late game cleaner. Scarf Helioptile in sun can OHKO Scarf Pawniard, take down Missy 1v1, deal massive damage to Ponyta, revenge kill plenty of mons at +1 (or Tirtouga at +2). It still suffers from many of the same problems as the LO set (you still can't take a hit), although you can now switch in on some Flying mons or Missy's Shadow Ball and actually do some damage. Of course the glaring issue with the Scarf set is that you're locked into a move, which especially sucks because of Diglett and Chinchou. So once again, it's hard to see why you would use Helioptile instead of a Chlorophyll mon. The Scarf set is more usable outside of sun than, say, Bellsprout, but then why not use Deerling, which is also somewhat usable outside of sun and can switch moves? Here I think Helioptile does have a niche (it's probably more useful alongside Scarf Vulpix than most Chlorophyll sweepers, plus it can beat Vullaby), but it's a very small and not particularly useful one.

Frankly, Helioptile sucks. Without sun, it's basically a really shitty Chinchou (aside from Dry Skin, it's basically a Special Blitzle with worse defensive typing and a shittier movepool). Even with Solar Power, it's the worst sun abuser there is. So yes, that first set probably is terrible. But it's the best niche Helioptile has.

tl;dr: Chlorophyll users have Sleep Powder, much better coverage, and 26+ speed (with the ability to switch moves), so they pretty much completely outclass Helioptile as a sun sweeper. Helioptile's best niche is as a sun abuser that can switch into Fletchling, and only the Berry Juice set can reliably do this.
 
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The reason I made the suggestion I did is that what that set was is just disgusting. I did not use it but it's just genuinely gross looking. If we want a Helioptile set on a Sun team, I would just use Scarf Solar Power, which lets it abuse Volt Switch without taking the damage from Solar Power. We can likewise use Berry Juice if Life Orb is actually not good on it (though it's at least an OO option), but the set should remain offensive. Same moves, just different item. That way Helioptile can actually switch into Fletchling. I recommended Dry Skin first as if Helioptile is not being used on a Sun team, it can still be useful--it works as a Chinchou counter that checks Misdreavus. If we do not like that, just emphasize Dry Skin in OO, no skin off my nose. But the only set I am willing to approve is an offensive one, what I proposed. If you want Berry Juice > Life Orb for Fletchling reasons, that's fine with me. But it has to be that one--the first set on this analysis is simply disgusting.

move 1: Volt Switch
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Dark Pulse
move 4: Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Fire
ability: Solar Power
item: Choice Scarf / Berry Juice
evs: 84 HP / 12 Def / 192 SAtk / 12 SDef / 200 Spd
nature: Modest / Timid

works fine with me. Recommend Life Orb and Dry Skin / Surf in the OO. Dry Skin is not outclassed by Chinchou as the Normal type makes it immune to Misdreavus's Shadow Ball. You did not even mention Life Orb once in the analysis.

That first set has to go, I am sorry. Just give Helioptile four offensive moves and a choice in items / abilities.
 
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