QC generally didn't approve of Flame Orb, and Heracross is probably only going to stay in the battlefield for two or three turns per use, lessening the damage by the Toxic Orb.
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Heracross (Analysis)
- Thread starter Majora_younglink
- Start date
Pretty much this, since Heracross is generally only staying in for 1-3 the damage it will be getting from Toxic will generally be the same if not lower than burn damage.
Flame Orb is more useful for ruin Trick users, specificaly Jirachi...
Flame Orb honestly has less utility outside of that. It's difficult to identify Trick users, Heracross will take more damage from a burn substantially, and, again, since Heracross will only be staying in for a few turns, Toxic Orb is substantially better due to a decreased damage range. QC officially said "no" to it, anyways.
I'm curious about something, having never actually used Heracross in the 5th Gen.
Why is the SD unviable, while the BU set is viable? The SD set is supposed to be too slow to get a good sweep off, leaving it very prone to revenge killers. On top of that, it has a severe issue with residual damage, given that you want to activate Guts, but must gets status'ed to do so.
However, the BU set suffers these problems as well. Because you boost more slowly, and you have less Attack to start with, you require several more boosts to get the same amount of power. However, this leaves you open to more attacks, making BU Heracross very reliant on its bulk. However, with no defensive EVs whatsoever, and no recovery outside of Leftovers, Heracross' bulk probably won't stretch as far as one might think.
Like I said, I haven't used Heracross this Gen, so I might figure this out by doing so. But, as it is, I'm curious why BU is viable and SD isn't.
Why is the SD unviable, while the BU set is viable? The SD set is supposed to be too slow to get a good sweep off, leaving it very prone to revenge killers. On top of that, it has a severe issue with residual damage, given that you want to activate Guts, but must gets status'ed to do so.
However, the BU set suffers these problems as well. Because you boost more slowly, and you have less Attack to start with, you require several more boosts to get the same amount of power. However, this leaves you open to more attacks, making BU Heracross very reliant on its bulk. However, with no defensive EVs whatsoever, and no recovery outside of Leftovers, Heracross' bulk probably won't stretch as far as one might think.
Like I said, I haven't used Heracross this Gen, so I might figure this out by doing so. But, as it is, I'm curious why BU is viable and SD isn't.
If you'd have read the comment section on the Bulk Up set it's viable because of the fact it can actually set up alongside and then break through some of it's biggest walls. Gliscor for example, one of Heracross's most common switch-ins, is easily set up on even if it has SD and is broken through. SD however can't even come close to this sort of hard countering since you don't gain those boosts in defense that make the set able to survive so well and break through pretty much every variant of Gliscor. The fact it can even Bulk Up alongside and win against the VERY common Conkeldurr is also a huge plus for the set.
Guts + Flame Orb negates the effect of the 50% Attack drop. So Flame Orb is best unless they use something rare like Gastro Acid.
But SD Gliscor (and a few Toxic Gliscor) commonly runs Taunt, and then it would shut you down anyway.
And don't you wall Payback Conkeldurr anyway?
I dunno, I'm probably just being ignorant about it, but it doesn't seem that much better to me.
Flame Orb hurts Heracross more on the first 2 turns and, since usually Heracross won't be on the field for so long, Toxic Orb is the best option.Guts + Flame Orb negates the effect of the 50% Attack drop. So Flame Orb is best unless they use something rare like Gastro Acid.
The thing is though they'll almost always assume they can get a free SD because typically Heracross can't do anything to Gliscor. Add along to the fact that most won't run enough speed to outrun Heracross and that means typically means Heracross will get two Bulk Ups before opposing Gliscors can Taunt if they even do carry it.
Conkel isn't walled. It's checked at most by Heracross since it can and will Bulk Up given the chance and recover quite the bit from Drain Punch. Really it was more an example of a popular Pokemon Heracross can boost alongside and then beat.
It may not be much better but the fact that it is better is why Bulk Up Heracross is a main set over SD. I've used both extensively and I can tell you that SD isn't viable and Bulk Up is viable enough to warrant a set.
@first paragraph: Seems logical. Looks right.
@second paragraph: Good enough for me.
@Cam Chandelure is hit SE by Stone Edge so that hardly matters. Tentacruel isn't a check at all, it has bad physical defense and will often be taken out with just neutral hits, this is before mentioning it doesn't carry any moves to even threaten Heracross. Metagross is hit with Megahorn and Close Combat for neutral damage for 180 Damage which is basically equal to a 200 SE Earthquake. The Nido are the only reason you'd want to carry Earthquake and they're hardly that common to warrant being mentioned.
@one Edited. Thanks, sometimes I miss minor things. :x
@one Edited. Thanks, sometimes I miss minor things. :x
This why you don't do things when you're half asleep. :c
Fix'd.
Fix'd.
No, actually, the drop from the burn is negated.Guts + Flame Orb negates the effect of the 50% Attack drop. So Flame Orb is best unless they use something rare like Gastro Acid.
Anyway, 3 turns with burn = 3 turns badly poisoned.
QC says no anyway, but, meh, u know...
See ya.
I've been looking at the BU set ever since my discussion of it earlier.
By running an EV spread of 216 HP / 4 Def you avoid being 2HKOed by Adamant LO Excadrill Earthquake. There are other changes you could make to avoid the 2HKO, but this one uses the minimum number of EVs to do it.
This way, Heracross can serve as a good Excadrill check even without any boosts, because it can take 2 hits, while Excadrill cannot take 2 hits in return.
It's not worth being the main spread, but it could possibly deserve a mention.
edit: sorry 4 bump
By running an EV spread of 216 HP / 4 Def you avoid being 2HKOed by Adamant LO Excadrill Earthquake. There are other changes you could make to avoid the 2HKO, but this one uses the minimum number of EVs to do it.
This way, Heracross can serve as a good Excadrill check even without any boosts, because it can take 2 hits, while Excadrill cannot take 2 hits in return.
It's not worth being the main spread, but it could possibly deserve a mention.
edit: sorry 4 bump
I would say that what you mentioned was a really nice thing to be able to do but the thing is most Excadrills carry Rock Slide and/or Return to the point that BU Heracross is still very likely to be 2HKO'd by pretty much every variant of Excadrill out there and it hardly matters regardless since Heracross is easily able to threaten them with possible high powered fighting moves. (If only Heracross had Drain Punch, if only.)
The thing is that Rock Slide has the exact same base power against Heracross as Earthquake (because of the STAB). Therefore, it could not 2HKO either.
The ONLY way for Excadrill to 2HKO that Heracross is with Return, which isn't even the most common coverage move (X-Scissor is, I believe).
Furthermore, the current Heracross spread can't OHKO Excadrill with Low Kick, which means that that Heracross needs to be able to deliver 2 hits in order to kill Excadrill.
I know that you can bluff Close Combat or something, but suppose that they call your bluff or they're willing to sac Excadrill or something. It's not worth letting Excadrill (without Return) come out on top.
I know that the current spread is tested and works very well. But I'm only suggesting that 12 EVs be moved, which hardly even makes a difference, especially since you'll be boosting your Attack anyway.
You forget the flinch change added on top that make it a very real possibility to be 2HKO'd anyways without being able to do anything and if there are hazards around you're very likely to be 2HKOd anyways.
I'm honestly unwilling to shift the EVs in the main spread for something that is so niche but I will add a mention that more attack EVs can be shifted to HP to survive a few attacks.
I'm honestly unwilling to shift the EVs in the main spread for something that is so niche but I will add a mention that more attack EVs can be shifted to HP to survive a few attacks.
Well, it's true that there's a flinch chance (technically, Rock Slide could miss, but always assume the worst, so w/e). And that hazards will get you 2HKOed. And that you could die to SandStorm damage if Excadrill rolls high. I agree that the EV change is incredibly situational.
However, it's more of a "why not?" kind of thing. The only drawback is 3 Attack points, which are pretty insignificant in the long run.
It's not just a question of why someone would change it, because the answer is: "for that one-in-a-million scenario". It's also a question of why someone wouldn't change it.
There's a reason most builds aim for Leftover, Life Orb, and Stealth Rock numbers and that is because it's an optimized overall build for the Pokemon. I already added an extra sentence basically stating that you can do what you suggested Slim but the EV spread you listed just is too niche for the main set. (Also who doesn't run Exca without a bunch of hazards?)
Leftovers numbers are meaningless. They try to get the maximum Leftovers recovery with the least amount of EVs, which is why they park right at the threshold. It's about recovery and conserving EVs, not because the actual Leftovers number is special. Also, the current spread doesn't even give a Leftovers number! 352 HP is the Leftovers number, while 208 EVs gives you 353 HP! 204 EVs gives the Leftovers number.
Life Orb numbers are, as SDS once said, silly. Any number that is not divisible by 10 works just as well as " LO numbers".
Stealth Rock numbers are legit, though, so I gotta give you that one (although I fail to see how those are relevant to this conversation).
It's your analysis, so you're the boss, and I gotta accept how you choose to proceed.
I jut wanna know what those 3 Attack points are doing for Heraross. What KOes those 3 points are getting. What you lose by diverting them.
Edit: Ok, I just read the sentence you added, and it was enough to sedate me. I'm happy now. Although I would still like the answers to my above questions, I'll stop arguing.
It's because otherwise the extra HP EV would be shifted into either attack or speed and neither does anything for Heracross due to speed already being at its optimum area and an extra Attack point causing Heracross to have an odd attack stat. This then means that it will not get the benefit from the 1 extra Attack unless it gets +2, +4, or +6. However if the 4 EVs are shifted into HP it means Heracross will gain the benefit of an odd numbered HP thus taking less hazard damage as a percent.
The attack points might be negligible on a regular basis but so is Excadrill. There is almost no situation at all where an Excadrill will want to switch in on Heracross and much less the Bulk Up set. It's just the overall fact that Heracross scares out Excadrill with the threat of high powered moves and that fact that any hazard makes Life Orb Excadrill 2HKO anyways makes the whole EV set just not as good as the one listed.
We good now?