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Heracross (BW2 Revamp)【QC 3/3】【GP 2/2】

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Husky, Jul 13, 2012.

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  1. Husky

    Husky

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    [​IMG]


    QC approvals: 3/3 [ ginganinja || PK Gaming || shrang ]
    GP approvals: 2/2 [ sirndpt || Aeron Ee1 ]


    [Overview]

    <p>Heracross was always a potent offensive Pokemon; high base Attack combined with helpful typing and access to two ridiculously powerful STAB moves has always made Heracross hard to handle. It also has access to Guts, which is still one of the best abilities for an offensively orientated Pokemon, as it makes Heracross virtually immune to any sort of status. BW2, however, granted Heracross another great ability, Moxie. With a couple of boosts under its belt, even fewer foes will be able to stand against its powerful attacks. However, Heracross's low Speed is its downfall, and the main reason for its low usage. In addition, BW2 also introduced several new threats that give Heracross a hard time, such as the new Therian formes, Tornadus-T in particular. You'll have to keep all these factors in mind in order to make Heracross to shine; however, it isn't too hard to work with. Just let me give you a tip for your journey: Don't bug this Bug.</p>


    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Close Combat
    move 2: Megahorn
    move 3: Stone Edge
    move 4: Sleep Talk / Night Slash
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Guts / Moxie
    nature: Jolly / Adamant
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This is one of the best, if not the best, way to use Heracross. A Choice Scarf bypasses its Speed issues by granting it a one-stage boost off the bat. Close Combat and Megahorn are the main attacking options. After factoring in the immense 120 Base Power of both moves, as well as boosts from STAB and possibly Guts, even Pokemon that resist them will think twice about switching in. For instance, the former move 2HKOes even 252/252+ Skarmory.</p>

    <p>Stone Edge is virtually mandatory on any Heracross set, as it deals with most opponents that resist both Heracross's STABs, especially Flying-types such as the ever-common Tornadus-T. In the last slot, both Sleep Talk and Night Slash are viable to help Heracross to cover certain threats; your choice should depend on what your team needs. Sleep Talk enables Heracross to absorb Spore from the likes of Breloom and Amoonguss, whereas Night Slash deals with any Jellicent that dare stand in Heracross's way.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>A Jolly nature is the best option here as it allows Heracross to outspeed many more foes, most importantly +1 neutral-natured Haxorus. An Adamant nature can provide Heracross with even more power, but the lack of Speed will be noticeable. For instance, it will lose the ability to outrun neutral-natured Choice Scarf Rotom-A, positive natured Choice Scarf Heatran, and the (albeit rare) positive-natured +1 Dragonite. However, Heracross would gain the impressive payoff of a guaranteed OHKO on 252/0 Scizor with a boosted Close Combat after Stealth Rock. Pursuit might look tempting, but it's only really useful against Latios and Latias that have already used Draco Meteor.</p>

    <p>Heracross can take advantage of both of its great abilities on this set. Guts makes it a valuable status absorber for burn, poison, and sleep, especially if using Sleep Talk. Gaining a huge power boost from status, it can act as more of a revenge killer. In contrast, Moxie transforms Heracross into a late-game cleaner that truly shines after walls have been weakened and rendered unable to sponge the next Close Combat. However, Moxie sets tend to require more team support than Guts variants do, because Heracross struggles to land KOes as easily as for example Salamence because of its lesser base Attack and typing issues. In the end, it's largely a matter of preference as both abilities have their merits and uses; pick which your team needs more.</p>

    <p>Heatran makes an exceptionally good teammate for Heracross as they cover each other's weaknesses well. They can form a decent offensive core for a team, as they resist all types between them except for Water, Electric, and Rock, which Gastrodon handle easily. Even with a Guts boost, Heracross struggles against the likes of Gliscor and Landorus, which are both 3HKOed at best. Jolly Choice Scarf Heracross's Guts-boosted Stone Edge does a mere 29.1% - 34.46% to 252/184+ Gliscor and 36.36% - 42.95% to 0/0 Landorus-T, factoring in Intimidate; therefore, Ice-type attacks will obviously be helpful. For instance, the aforementioned Heatran can run Hidden Power Ice and Gastrodon can use Ice Beam. Heatran, however, might be outsped by offensive variants of the two, whereas Gastrodon needs Stealth Rock support to reliably KO Gliscor. Another great partner would be Tornadus-T, which doesn't have any problems OHKOing both Gliscor and Landorus-T.</p>


    [SET]
    name: All-Out Attacker
    move 1: Close Combat
    move 2: Megahorn
    move 3: Stone Edge / Night Slash
    move 4: Facade
    item: Flame Orb
    ability: Guts
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>In contrast to the Choice Scarf Set, this one forgoes longevity to deal as much damage as possible within a short time. Close Combat, Megahorn and Stone Edge are Heracross's main attacking options, and give it two immensely strong STAB moves along with the best possible coverage move. If your team can take out Flying-types easily, Night Slash gives opposing Jellicent a far harder time against this set, as it easily 2HKOes even the physically bulkiest variants after Leftovers and Stealth Rock. Facade is yet another coverage move; in addition to being reliable, it can potentially 2HKO Gliscor.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread is also rather straightforward: maximum Attack and Speed ensures that Heracross hits as fast and as hard as possible. The last 4 EVs are moved into Defense to give Heracross an odd HP number, which might help it out in the end keeping in mind all the residual damage it will have to take. In conjunction with an Adamant nature, Flame Orb activates Guts to grant this set all the power it wants.</p>

    <p>If you plan to use Heracross to absorb status moves for your team, however, feel free to use a Life Orb over Flame Orb. With a Life Orb and Guts boost, Heracross can reliably 2HKO 252/200+ Jellicent with Stone Edge factoring in Leftovers—provided that both hit. Keep in mind, though, that this means Heracross takes even more residual damage, which greatly decreases its already low staying power. Finally, even though Adamant is needed on this set for as much power as possible, it misses the jump over neutral-natured Haxorus. A Jolly nature can fix this problem; however, the drop in damage output is very noticeable.</p>

    <p>Heracross has significant Speed issues in general, so Pokemon that can provide paralysis support—such as Dragonite, Rotom-W, and Jirachi—all make favorable teammates. Jirachi also has access to Wish, which helps patch up Heracross's problem with residual damage, and gives it multiple chances to attack.</p>


    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Close Combat
    move 2: Megahorn
    move 3: Stone Edge
    move 4: Sleep Talk / Pursuit
    item: Choice Band
    ability: Guts
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This is probably Heracross's most fearsome set. In addition to an Adamant nature and Guts ability, this set dons a Choice Band to pump its already massive power to absurd levels. With both solid Base Power and good coverage, Close Combat devastates anything in sight, and with Megahorn and Stone Edge for coverage, there's almost no Pokemon in OU able to avoid the 2HKO from this set—except perhaps Gliscor, who is 3HKOed by any move. With Sleep Talk, Heracross gains the ability to absorb Spore for the team. It can easily take out Breloom with either of its STAB moves, and also OHKO 252/40 Amoonguss with Megahorn. Alternatively, a Guts-boosted Pursuit will OHKO 252/252+ Jellicent 70% of the time from full HP, and always OHKO it after Stealth Rock and Leftovers.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Choice Band Heracross is somewhat different from other Heracross as it doesn't really care about most status, except for freeze. While burn and poison don't bother most sets, this one also handles sleep and paralysis well, as it's not meant to work as a revenge killer, but more as a wallbreaker that decimates everything that dares switch into it. This affords Heracross plenty of opportunities to switch into status moves and non-Fire-type moves with status-inflicting secondary effects. It therefore loves bulky teammates that tend to lure in status, such as Scizor, Dragonite, Blissey, Vaporeon, and Gastrodon. Heatran also makes a great sweeping partner to hit hard on the special side as they share no weaknesses and therefore can help each other out easily. In particular, Heatran can take advantage of Heracross's tendency to lure in Fire-type moves and Scizor.</p>


    [SET]
    name: Substitute + 3 Attacks
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Close Combat
    move 3: Megahorn
    move 4: Stone Edge
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Moxie
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set functions entirely differently to all Heracross's other sets. Instead of relying on absurd power or the aid of Choice Scarf, this one tries to sweep with the help of Substitute. The plan is simple: switch into a resisted attack, set up a Substitute and start attacking.</p>

    <p>Substitute works well with Moxie in two ways: firstly, as Substitute protects Heracross from status, Moxie is preferred to Guts for more power. Secondly, Substitute reduces the need for prediction and allows Heracross to simply hit hard from behind its Substitute, hopefully get one or two early Moxie boosts, and pull off a sweep. The classic attacks—namely Close Combat, Megahorn, and Stone Edge—deal with the majority of the current OU metagame, as always. In particular, this Heracross can deal with its biggest counter, Tornadus-T, by OHKOing it with Stone Edge after Stealth Rock.</p>

    <p>This set has just one objective: to get a Moxie boost as soon as possible. It trades Speed and raw power for a safety cushion against attacks and the ability to freely choose between its moves. If it fails to earn one or two boosts quickly, however, it'll have huge problems making an impact in battle.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Night Slash can help if Jellicent is problematic; however, as this set lacks Guts, watch out for Will-O-Wisp and a potential Scald burn, which would cripple it. Furthermore, note that unboosted Heracross can only 3HKO Jellicent. Focus Punch is another option for Fighting STAB, as it gives Heracross a lot more power and has nice synergy with Substitute. However, Heracross simply lacks the bulk to maintain the Substitute for a long period of time.</p>

    <p>Although this set is rather autonomous in what it does, it likes to see as many entry hazards on the field as possible to get more chances at nabbing KOes. While Stealth Rock can be used by a plethora of partners—Donphan and Focus Sash Mamoswine both also have access to Ice Shard to somewhat deal with Gliscor and Landorus-T—finding a good parter that can lay out Spikes is hard because most users of the move share Heracross's weakness to Fire-type moves. Deoxys-D, however, is excellent at this job, as it has great natural bulk, access to Taunt to prevent the opponent from setting layers as well, and most notably, the ability to lure out Tyranitar. Although Pursuit will seriously hurt Deoxys-D and sandstorm negates Heracross's Leftovers, it's still a great matchup that gives Heracross the opportunity to set up Substitute, as even Fire Blast Tyranitar won't risk getting OHKOed by an incoming Close Combat. Roserade and Forretress might just work as well to handle rain teams somewhat, and can especially deal with Jellicent. Toxic Spikes are a double-edged sword; they help Heracross deal with walls and wear down bulky Pokemon that aren't immune to them, but they might also take them out and deny Heracross of Moxie boosts.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Heracross has access to some other interesting options. For instance, Swords Dance is a great setup move that can give it a nice power boost, and turns many 3HKOs into 2HKOs and some 2HKOs into potential OHKOs. A mono-attacking Bulk Up + RestTalk set can be used; however, not many attacking options are viable on such a set. With STAB and no negative side effects, Megahorn the only worthwhile option, despite its terrible accuracy. Heracross can use a Salac Berry in conjunction with Substitute or Endure for a 200 Base Power Reversal. If using Substitute, make sure to run no HP investment for a stat of 301 HP and a full-powered Reversal after four Substitutes. This is largely just a gimmick in OU though, as the prevalence of residual damage and priority don't do Heracross any favors.</p>

    <p>In terms of offensive options, Heracross has access to a nice number of alternatives. Low Kick and Brick Break are decent Fighting STAB moves; the former has generally high power in OU, while the latter helps Heracross to break through dual screeners. Furthermore, neither inflicts the defense drops that come with Close Combat. However, the pure power that Close Combat offers is usually worth its drawback. Earthquake is a great coverage move that helps to break through Jirachi and Metagross, who might otherwise be troublesome. Rock Slide is an option over Stone Edge, that trades power for accuracy; the Choice Scarf set might even be able to take advantage of its small flinch chance. Bulldoze is a neat move that drops the opponent's Speed stat, but Flying-types and Levitate users are immune to it, so it's not as usable as Low Sweep—which Heracross doesn't receive—would have been. Heracross has access to Return and Retaliate, two other Normal-type moves, but they're mostly inferior to Facade.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Heracross absolutely hates Flying-types. In particular, Tornadus-T, Gliscor and Skarmory can trouble it if it is Choice-locked into the wrong move. In addition to a handy Flying typing, Landorus-T even has Intimidate to survive multiple hits. Physically defensive Forretress has a good chance to survive the 2HKO from Close Combat, and can seize the opportunity to set up hazards, deal a lot of damage with Gyro Ball, or gain momentum with Volt Switch. Jellicent is problematic for variants that lack Night Slash as it can shrug off Heracross's STAB moves and capitalize on Stone Edge's shaky accuracy. While Choice Scarf and Substitute sets can afford a 3HKO at best, Choice Band reliably 2HKOes with Pursuit, while the All-Out Attacker is able to 2HKO with Stone Edge when a Life Orb attached; else it can 3HKO at best.</p>

    <p>Good checks for Heracross, on the other hand, include anything that can outspeed it—which is at least half of the current OU metagame—or that have access to a priority move not named Mach Punch or Vacuum Wave. Examples of such Pokemon are Jirachi, Scizor, both Landorus formes, both Tornadus formes, Volcarona, and even Tentacruel.</p>
  2. JellyOs

    JellyOs

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    RestTalk looks godawful, Heracross is not bulky enough and doesn't have the STABs for that
  3. Husky

    Husky

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    I put them both in AC for now as Moxie is what Heracross screamed for to reach further levels in sweeping. I might as well slash them for the moment if you want it.

    I know I know.. But when I looked up through AccidentalGreed's threat I saw him noting to test RestTalk. It sucks tbh, and it'll probably going to OO very soon..
  4. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast MUH FREEDOMZ
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    Guts Abuse Heracross is one of the most powerful Pokemon in the tier, and after a Swords Dance and status orb activation it 2HKOs the entire metagame. Sure, Tornadus-T isn't doing it any favors, but you have other team members for that. Some sort of Guts abuser deserves a set in the analysis and not a mention in the AC of Substitute.
  5. peng

    peng Formerly PenguinX

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    I think the Choice sets should be separated, and Choice Scarf should be the first set listed. They play really differently, especially since Guts is almost as good on Choice Band as Moxie is whereas it barely deserves a mention for Choice Scarf.

    I've used Swords Dance a bit, but base 85 Spd with no access to priority really isn't quick enough in a metagame where Rain Offense is so prominent. Even against stall, I found Heracross doesn't get many chances to set-up, and against Rain stall you just get Protected on every other turn until Toxic / Burn damage kills you. If you want to tear stall a new one I'd rather run Choice Band anyway.

    You are also massively overselling how well Heracross beats Breloom, given that +2 Mach Punch OHKOs after 2 SR switch-ins, and +0 LO Bullet Seed has a good chance to OHKO if it hits 5 times iirc. Even if you do switch-in on Spore you only have a 2/3 chance of getting a STAB move with Sleep Talk.

    I think set order should be:
    Choice Scarf
    Choice Band - probably slash Guts.
    Swords Dance
    I've never used Substitute so idk how good it is.
  6. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    1) I don't like the look of Swords Dance Heracross one bit. Yes, I know you're ridiculously strong, but you're slow, not that bulky and weak to quite a lot of things. You will never sweep with that thing, unless you're opponent's team is so ridiculously slow it's not funny. What's more, you're poisoning yourself, so whatever bulk Heracross may have had available is completely wasted. I personally don't think it deserves a set at all.

    2) Choice set should just be a Choice set. Moxie should be the focus at all, IMO. Unlike Salamence, Heracross's STABs are resisted by way more things and he's not that fast. Secondly, Guts is as viable, if not more viable than Moxie. Choice Scarf Heracross is one of the best abusers of Choice Scarf Sleep Talk abusers because it gets a Guts boost along with it. By all means, slash Moxie with Guts, but I still think Guts is still a better option. Heracross is not going to clean house anywhere near as good as stuff like Salamence is, so it's main job is still as a fast status absorber.

    3) I'm not sure about the Sub set yet, but Focus Punch is probably crappy on it, IMO. I don't know for sure, but that's just my gut reaction.

    So, basically, scrap the SD set, have Guts / Moxie as the abilities for the Choice set, probably, remove Focus Punch on Sub.
  7. Husky

    Husky

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  8. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte For every king that died, oh, they would crown another
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    I side with Shrang on sacking the SD set. Toxic+taking hits will definitely wear it down before it does too much damage. I don't see how it works well against defensive teams, as they can easily protect+substitute stall you to death through your own toxic as you fruitlessly try to hit them at least on time. Seriously, 85 speed is not getting you anywhere. At least put Flame Orb as a slash.
  9. Pocket

    Pocket GOJIRA
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    Husky, have you tried Salac Berry & Swords Dance on Substitute set? With Substitute, you can make sure you can activate Salac Berry safely, and this will resolve Heracross's Speed problem. If it activates Salac Berry on a faster pokemon, it can even keep its Sub intact with +1 Speed.

    Swords Dance is awesome for letting it sweep after the Salac boost, and it also makes it easier to nab Moxie boosts. Bulk Up may be an option, too, to make Substitute impenetrable by physical attacks, but it probably wont work without some significant defensive investment.

    The problem lies in coverage, since SubSD is stuck with only 2 moves. Stone Edge is essential, imo, for coverage, whereas Megahorn or Close Combat would be replaced for Swords Dance. Replacing Megahorn seems like the better option, since Fighting + Rock provides good coverage (although Psychic-types would be more difficult to take out).

    I guess SubSalac & 3 Atks work, too - especially since Moxie provides free Atk boosts. These alternatives are worth testing, imo.
  10. Husky

    Husky

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    Darn, I totally forgot, that Salac Berry got released... I'll check this later, gotta do some work atm.

    Thanks for your hint ^.^
  11. Ernesto

    Ernesto is a motionless pedophile
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    Yea, not that my opinion is worth much, but giving a boosting sweeper an orb that leeches more of its life every turn sounds a bit counterproductive to me, so if finally the SD set survives (not likely to happen, because it requires too much paralysis support to be effective), I'd think that Flame Orb >> Toxic Orb. The latter is better for, what, two turns?
    Anyway, this only works if the SD set was gonna make it, which I doubt, especially if SubSalac+SD is mentioned (of course, we're talking about different abilities here).
    I also reckon that Hera's role as a ScarfMoxie user is quite outclassed, while that just isn't the case for ScarfGuts. It's just a matter of preference, but for this Poké, especially if you're gonna put Sleep Talk as a main option over Night Slash (kinda redundant coverage, imho, since it's only real useful against Golurk, which Megahorn wrecks anyway), I think Guts deserves the primary (if not only) mention on the Choice set. (JUST saw you already changed that, but I think I might as well leave it on)

    Just my two cents, you don't have to agree with me... Great work btw, I'm quite interested on seeing how's the SubSalac+SD gonna turn out
  12. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    The thing is that there are so many Pokemon who pack ridiculous amounts of power to break down stall teams which don't completely fail against any sign of offense. This is not to mention, like Electrolyte said, that defensive teams can easily play around against Heracross by stalling it with shit like Sub and Protect to completely screw over Heracross due to its poison damage. So yeah, 1) the set isn't even that good at breaking down stall, while 2) it completely fails against balance/offense who have offensive Pokemon in them. Again, scrap it please.

    On the topic of SubSalac, I think it's been the unwritten rule ever since gen 4 that to be a good pinch berry user, you should be immune to most forms of passive damage (Sandstorm mainly, but also Toxic), while resisting most forms of priority (Bullet Punch mainly, but also extends to ExtremeSpeed). Good pinch berry users basically boiled down to Agility SubPetaya Empoleon, who had both of these traits, as well as SubSalac Magneton. SubSalac Garchomp was also around, but that was mainly because of Sand Veil being annoying as well. Heracross doesn't really show either of these, although I guess it does resist Mach Punch, but is not bulky or resist it enough to shrug it off at 25% health. So yeah, an OO mention is probably best for SubSalac.
  13. Pocket

    Pocket GOJIRA
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    ShakeItUp's team pimp crew more than proved the effectiveness of Scarf Moxie Heracross. Definitely Moxie > Guts. Adamant > Jolly for power, too - Jolly is really only for Haxorus (and Landorus-T I guess?)
  14. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    O.k

    I am vetoing Swords Dance, especially with Toxic / Burn Orb since it just dies way to fast (18% per turn iirc if sands up), and when you factor in hazards like Stealth Rock, a turn to set up, residual damage and so on, your health just drains. Other members of QC can weigh in on this if they want, I just personally think it dies too fast.

    RE the Choice Set.

    Pocket and I had a discussion (ergo other QC members might have personal opinions on this as well) but we personally decided to make Moxie the primary slash mostly because Scarf is the primary slash in the item slot. Both abilities have there use (for example I personally would use Guts on a Choice Band set) so we would like the the analysis to reflect the pros and cons of both abilities, and that it often comes down to personal preference.

    Jolly gets the main slash on the Choice Set because the scarfer really wants to outspeed Adamant DD Haxorus, as well as Landorus-T. Adamant should get a strong mention however, if you have those pokemon checked elsewhere on your team, since Heracross really likes the power.

    I think I covered everything. Pocket can add in something if I missed it.
  15. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    I'd have preferred to debate this on IRC, but you're not there when I got on, so the next best thing is to say it here. First of all, it would be nice if we didn't just base our arguments off one person's experiences. All I can say here, is do not forget what Heracross's main job is, and that, is to revenge kill key threats. Yes, it may clean up work as a cleaner end-game, but it is a revenge killer first and foremost. The job of a late-game cleaner is secondary, IMO. This is why I believe Guts is better than Moxie. As a revenge killer, you would want Heracross to be free of status as much as you can. You would want to eliminate as many threats to your role as a revenge killer first, before you look at "what else can this do?". As a revenge killer, Heracross hates status, in particular burn. What if you need to revenge kill a 20% +0 Volcarona? Risking Stone Edge may be something you don't want to do. Close Combat is probably the safest move you can take, because you know, you won't miss and you'll definitely take down the Volcarona... until you get burnt by Flame Body. That would completely render Heracross useless to revenge something else later. However, if you had Guts, Heracross wouldn't give a shit. It's still a great revenge killer, and possibly even better due to that attack boost. If you remember the fact that Scarf Heracross's main job is a revenge killer, you will see that Guts is the more reliable ability. The increase of Breloom and Spore helps this cause as well. Its ability to clean up late game is secondary. This, coupled with the fact that Heracross does not always get that first kill, along with the fact that he is mainly a hit and run Pokemon makes Guts a more consistent option.

    I'd encourage all members of QC and all players to share their opinions on this, but the above is my point of view.
  16. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    I know Shrang already put down an alone choice scarf set, I really do think that the choice scarf set plays entirely different than most sets. It makes it an excellent revenge killer and a terrifying pokemon to face in the end game.

    On the topic of guts vs moxie, I do see why guts is far more useful for pretty much everything else, as shrag mentioned. But I know from experience against Heracross that moxie does constantly win the game in the end, while guts just doesn't. Remember the goal of any pokemon game is to win.

    Considering that I feel that both are good options, but there should be a bias towards moxie.
  17. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte For every king that died, oh, they would crown another
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    I'm not really sure about SubSalac. It's not as if Heracross already has blistering speed like Terrakion/Keldeo, nor does it have their defenses or their great typing. Tornadus-T will definitely be a switch in once you throw in your Heracross, and it can easily outspeed you and Hurricane away your substitutes. Perhaps Salac can be put in as a slash?
  18. Husky

    Husky

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    How high is the chance to run into Volcarona nowadays, when Rain became that popular? The amount of Sand teams I've faced lately also dropped drasticly. However, I don't want to say that they're not prominent in OU anymore by any means.

    Within my playtests I noticed that there are a couple of other threats Heracross has to deal with more often, and the most important already got mentioned a few times, namely Gliscor, Tornadus-T, Jellicent and Breloom - the latter one seems to be the main reason why everyone's discussing whether Moxie is more useful or Guts.

    Keep in mind there's no real favorable Status condition for Heracross as all hinder him from what he wants to do. Indeed, Burn doesn't hinder Guts Heracross at all, but there's still the prominent Sleep and Paralysis around. I agree that a Choice locked Sleep Talk with Moxie doesn't seem to benefit at all, however, once sleep ends, Guts would also lose its use (not to mention you have to switch either way). There's actually no point in saying it's be the better Ability that second.

    Since I had more success with Moxie, I'd stick with it as the main ability, unless someone can point out amazingly well why Guts should be main option.


    €/ if no one has anything left to say, this should be ready for QC.
  19. JellyOs

    JellyOs

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    Just one thing since this is pretty good.
    Add Skarm as a counter because he hits you 4x w/ BB and can't be OHKO'd.
  20. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    by definition, a counter has to be something that can switch in, shrug off a hit, and then wall / beat. Obviously there is usually more to it than that but im using the concise version cos im pushed for time.

    Skarmory does not fully counter Heracross, when the Choice Band set flat out 2KOs Skarmory with Close Combat (meaning Skarm cannot switch in). Its a hard counter to the Scarf sets, as well as the Sub, provided Heracross has not amassed enough attack boosts via Moxie.
  21. yondie

    yondie I feel a little bit, like, I'm the Braveheart of creativity.
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    While I agree SD Heracross is pretty much dead nowadays (has been since the advent of bullet punch scizor) Guts abuse Heracross is still a really good set. Moxie hasn't made 'hera useless' because he's still a really good option switching into wow / toxic and wreakign havok (a distinct advantage over the moxie set)
  22. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    ooooooooooooook

    After a long and drawnout debate Guts is going to be the main slash on Scarf Heracross instead of Moxie. We considered all sides of the argument, and thats what we got. Moxie still gets second slash and when you do write this up, please mention that it often comes down to what your team wants or needs / personal preference. We really were deadlocked on this for a little while.

    Make Jolly primary nature on Scarf Heracross, you need it for outspeeding Adamant Haxorus and since you are a revenge killer, id really like to be able to do that. Bring up Adamant as an option if you have Landorus-T and Haxorus already handled, although personally at that stage id be looking for a different Revenge Killer.

    Split the Choice set into two different sets, Scarf and Choice Band. I asked a few people on QC and most are pretty favourable with this. The sets play differently, (ie ones a revenge killer the other a wallbreaker) and as such should be separate. You can argue a case for Adamant as the main slash on the Choice Band set since you really want the power against defensive teams. Guts should still be primary nature on CB tho.

    Deslash Salac Berry on the Substitute set, but bring it up in AC. Its o.k, and helps fix the middling speed issue, however Heracross doesn't really like Sandstorm (or Hail), and most priority breaks its sub which really sucks.

    I want to see a Guts Abuse set, like the one already in the analysis. 4 attacks (including) Facade is what you should be running as its dam strong so yea. Add in Toxic Orb as the item etc etc.

    I think I covered everything, rest of QC can weigh in if I forgot something or if they want to bring up or discuss something else.
  23. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Make sure to add Night Slash in AC (for Jellicent)
  24. Husky

    Husky

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    done with all changes. if there's something i forgot about, just tell me
  25. Chillarmy

    Chillarmy

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    Sleep Talk is a pointless slash on the Guts abuse set, IMO. Being able to absorb sleep from Breloom is cool and all, but Heracross is better off slamming stuff into the ground with Guts-boosted attacks. Let's not forget that Heracross would have a 1/3 chance of chosing the most beneficial attack; having good sleep luck (lmao) would also make such tactics much less potent. If you're using Heracross for the sole purpose of absorbing status, then CB is the superior option, as it can actually make stuff that resists its STAB think twice about switching in, with or without a Guts boost. Potentially losing a lot of HP in one turn sucks pretty hard, but it's definitely worth it to see Heracross rip something to shreds on the following turn.

    Also, could you re-order the sets to: Sub -> Guts abuse -> Scarf -> CB? I'm not QC, but from my experiences with Heracross, I can honestly say that Hera's Choice item sets are worse than Sub / Guts abuse.
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