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Pokémon Heracross

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by PK Gaming, Oct 21, 2013.

  1. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Name: Heraboss
    Type: Bug / Fighting
    Ability: Swarm / Guts / Moxie (DW)
    Base Stats: 80 / 125 / 75 / 40 / 95 / 85
    MEvo Type: Bug / Fighting
    MEvo Ability: Skill Link
    MEvo Base Stats: 80 / 185 / 115 / 40 / 105 / 75

    New Moves
    -Pin Missile (Level up)*
    -Bullet Seed (Level up)*
    -Arm Thrust (Level up)*
    -Rock Blast (Egg move)*
    -Confide (TM)

    *Takes advantage of Mega Heracross's ability.

    After a grueling, non-stop training session in Mount Silver, Heracross has finally awakened to its hidden potential with Mega Evolution. Just in time too, since it seems that X&Y has lessened Heracross's effectiveness by granting Fairy-type Pokemon the ability to resist both of its STAB moves. Luckily for Heracross, most Fairy-types have lower physical defense, and some of them are weak to its coverage moves! Heracross was also given several multi-hit moves in preparation for its Mega form, which allows it to crush would be checks, like Togekiss & Zapdos with absurdly powerful coverage moves. While it remains to be seen if X&Y was beneficial to Heracross overall, I have a strong feeling that Heracross might actually come out on top in this gen.

    Note: I don't feel like going over its old sets, but feel free to discuss them.

    New Movesets

    Adonis Attacker
    Heracross @ Heracronite
    Ability: Moxie / Swarm
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature / Jolly Nature
    - Pin Missile
    - Close Combat / Arm Thrust
    - Rock Blast
    - Earthquake / Bullet Seed

    This set takes full advantage of Skill Link, and is pretty hard to switch into as a resh,t. Say goodbye to Missahorn; Pin Missile has a base power of 25 now, which means that Mega Heracross has access to a base 125 Bug-type move with 95 accuracy. It gets better; Heracross now receives Rock Blast from breeding, which lets it crush Pokemon who would ordinarily check it (Flying-types, Chandelure, etc). It also has base 125 power, which makes it a decent move to throw out if you're worried about Bug-type resists in general. The choice between Close Combat and Arm Thrust is an obvious power vs stability argument. Earthquake is solely for Aegislash(who completely walls Mega Heracross), and Bullet Seed is pretty much only there for Azumarill, Jellicent and other bulky-water types. If you aren't concerned about these Pokemon, then you can always switch this move for Substitute, Swords Dance, Bulk up, etc.

    Keep in mind that Mega Heracross is pretty slow, so you'll only be able to use it as a hit & run attacker.

    Buff Bug
    Heracross @ Heracronite
    Ability: Moxie / Swarm
    EVs: 2XX HP / 252 Atk / XX Spe
    Adamant Nature / Jolly Nature
    - Bulk Up
    - Pin Missile
    - Arm Thrust
    - Rock Blast

    If defense is more your cup of tea, then try using this set. Bulk Up Mega Heracross plays identically to Bulk Up Heracross. Switch into something you can force out, Bulk Up and go from there. You can also also try an even more defensive approach with Rest + Sleep Talk. A Specially Defensive spread isn't out of the question either.

    Closing Comments

    Heracross probably won't make a splash in OU anytime soon, but it looks like its going to be a decent contender in the lower tiers. With or without Mega evolution, heh.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
  2. Jaroda

    Jaroda

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    I've heard people saying he was outright inferior to normal Heracross but he has JUST the right Ability, moves and stats to be very scary item or no. 185 At and 115 Df boosted after a Bulk Up is SCARY. Blowing any Guts or Moxie boost from before. It may be slower, but even his SpD breaks 100 at 105! Slow and steady wins the race you ain't kidding! I was going to suggest throwing up Rest but really, he doesn't have the stats to be a Wall with a lack of item. He should really do as much damage as possible as a moving tank shrugging off hits. Throw up a Light Screen for him and watch him do wonders! But as usual, he replaces four slot syndrome for mega slot syndrome. You'd really have to build a team AROUND this guy to be optimal, rather than being able to throw him on any team that just needs a bulky megamon.
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  3. JayHankEdLyon

    JayHankEdLyon

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    Tailwind or Trick Room or Baton Pass (thanks Scolipede!), while gimmicky, would make an absolute monster out of this guy.

    It's just a matter of whether that's worth just using a different Mega. Trick Room especially has no better Megas that I can think of, but beyond that Hera's stats are pretty niche. To echo what everyone's saying, that speed loss is a killer.
  4. Hiphopanonymous

    Hiphopanonymous

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    Arm Thrust is still a power 102.5 move factoring in STAB, with the benefits of breaking Subs, and NOT lowering Mega-Hera's defenses after use. Plus, that speed means it probably shouldn't be lowering it's defenses, since not only would it possibly force you into switching it out fearing an RK (it's vulnerable to ALL hazards, mind you), but it would negate it's rather nice bulk. I think it should be played as a bulky attacker rather than using CC to hit and run. It's just too slow to truly abuse CC.

    Even with the Mevo and the new moves, Aegislash still walls it to hell and back, resisting or being immune to EVERY SINGLE multi-hit attack it has, whilst being able abuse King's Shield. Not to mention that Arm Thrust makes it vulnerable to anything with Rocky Helmet/Iron Barbs/Rough Skin (or any combo thereof), again ruining that bulk. Doubting it will be OU, but only time will tell.
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  5. Goutland

    Goutland

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    Considering Mega Heracross's mediocre speed and above average bulk, I think a sub + 3 attacks set would be excellent on it. The only thing that really hurts this is a lack of leftovers.

    And this might be somewhat of a joke, but I ran the calcs for shits and giggles and Mega Heracross can sub up on Ferrothorn freely as long as it doesn't get a max Gyro Ball roll... unfortunately this requires minimum speed investment and a Brave nature.

    0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (86 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 78-93 (21.42 - 25.54%)

    And to Hiphopanonymous, Heracross can run earthquake if Aegislash/Doublade is an issue, although I'm not really sure how much coverage you'd lose by switching out one of its STABs or 5 hit moves. I'm sure many things will resort to running EQ just to hit Aegislash just because of how big of a threat it's going to be.
  6. jonnyrolo

    jonnyrolo

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    I think Mega-Heracross's effectiveness at breaking through subs to damage and kill things should at least get a mention somewhere in the Analysis. It also is another factor to consider when deciding between CC and Arm Thrust.
  7. azureleaf17

    azureleaf17

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    Hmm...

    Mega Heracross (RestTalk + Bulk Up)
    Heracross @ Heracronite
    Ability: Guts (Skill Link)
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpDef
    Nature: Careful
    - Bulk Up
    - Pin Missile
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    The RestTalk classic is one that Mega Heracross can take advantage of. It fixes its inability to absorb crippling status, negates the need for its lowered speed, and allows it for a form of recovery even without Leftovers, as well as taking advantage of the fact that sleep has reverted to pre-Gen V mechanics. Also, Heracross's much-improved bulk allows it to take hits much better, hitting 364 / 267 / 339 with that investment. With that monstrous 185 base Attack, Bulk Up, and a base 125 STAB that hits through Substitutes and Sashes thanks to Skill Link, even resists are going to take a massive chunk of damage.

    +1 0 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 240-283 (68.18 - 80.39%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +1 0 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jirachi: 249-294 (61.63 - 72.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +1 0 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 220-259 (57.29 - 67.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +1 0 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 222-262 (52.85 - 62.38%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO
    +1 0 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 156-184 (38.7 - 45.65%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    The only things that can reliably take a +1 Pin Missile are dedicated physical walls with a Bug resist or Pokemon with quad resistance to Bug (Heatran quickly comes to mind), as even a number of physical walls are cleanly OHKOed due to a lack of resistance to Bug. Unfortunately, RestTalk can really screw you over if Sleep Talk decides to choose rest and Heracross has four common weaknesses (including the ever-present 4x weakness to Flying-types), but its improved defenses really help it find the one turn to switch in and the subsequent one it needs to Bulk Up and start destroying things.
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2013
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  8. Kejmur

    Kejmur

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    I agree with this. What IMO Heracross needed was not attack increase (because for example Guts Boosted SD Heracross would rip everything technically to shreds anyway and with Guts he reached higher attack stat number than MegaHeracross). What he needed is speed increase, not drop, lol. I would rather see -30 attack and for example -10 defense and put it in speed which would still give him enough power to let him do his job, while SD set for example would suddenly sound better (if he can use it in MegaForm). 115+ Speed is IMO what Heracross needed (and some form of priority) and he would be really damn good if he had at least this much speed. Power was ALWAYS there for Heracross, just not speed. Speed was IMO the only reason why Heracross wasn't OU (with high enough speed lack of priority wouldn't matter and unlike something like Lucario he has decent bulk and great resistances to actually survive hit like -Dark, -Bug, -Fighting, etc.), GREAT power and with Guts, with some residual damage and for example guts facade he could break even through things like Gliscor or Landorus-I, which counter his other sets. If they wanted to help Heracross, the thing he needed was speed and they even made it... worse than before. Skill Link with new moves on him sounds fine as well, but in power it's still inferior to Guts Heracross (or Moxie) while being SLOWER really doesn't help.

    Honestly if you want to use SD set - go with standard Heracross. SD Heracross with Guts hits harder and for example with Facade (which Mega can't use obviously) you could even break through walls, which were resisting your STAB combination or Night Slash with Guts was strong enough to break through bulky ghosts. And he's faster with enough bulk to still survive some hits when needed even without increased defensive stats from Mega. Also for others sets... with Choice Band Heracross hits harder then Mega anyway, while Choice Scarf fixes his speed issues. IMO Heracross so far looks... superior to his Mega IMO, which I find sad and I doubt his basic form will make OU, so for Mega IMO there's no hope either.

    Although Bulk Up and bulky attacking sets sounds better for Mega, so I guess it's some advantage for it. In Gen 4 some people used Heracross as RestTalker, so with increased bulk this would work even better, but again, main niche of this set was ability Guts increasing Heracross power under sleep, so... yeah, another potential niche for Mega instead of basic form sounds shaky at best.

    EDIT: I was comparing Normal Heracross to MegaHeracross, which IMO is better in all cases except some bulky attacking sets and Bulk Up (and I doubt Normal will become standard OU pick, so I doubt Mega will be one even more). So IMO if anyone expects Mega to be OU in the end, I somehow doubt it. Although I admit that having more accurate strong Bug and Rock attacks is something that normal Heracross wishes he had.
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
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  9. tarspaceheel

    tarspaceheel

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    Is there a good reason to run Guts Heracross@Heracronite any more? It seems like since you're going to be Mega-evolving Heracross eventually, Moxie is the far superior choice, just in case you get a chance for a revenge kill and Atk boost before powering up.
  10. dadoux

    dadoux

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    Classic Heracross with assault vest could be pretty damn bulky with his already-high spD stat.
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  11. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    The Defense boost is huge. Heracross has such good typing for a physically defensive tank. Resists Ground, Fighting, Bug, Dark, Grass, and it's neutral to rock. With that improved DEF, there are so many mons it can check and tank just on virtue of its typing
  12. xSilentDeviL

    xSilentDeviL

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    heracross needs more love. Heracross finally has a place on a bulky offense teams with its mega. 80/115/105 are awesome, and this thing can fire back with 185 attack. switch this it in on lets say tyranitar, and it can fire a 125 move (pin missile) coming off 185 attack. Scary. not many pokemon can switch into this kind of attack, kind of like a pseudo scizor CB u-turn, to a degree. Works great with heatran as a partner, and lati@s to form an awsome core.
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2013
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  13. vileguy

    vileguy

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    I think this is a poor thought to have. There are plenty of pokemon to choose from with higher speed and lower attack and bulk than heracross. We don't need megastone to make him into a clone of other pokemon. It's better for it to make him into something unique. Megaheracross might not have the same attack as guts flame orb heracross, but he has higher bulk and takes no burn damage. Yes he's vulnerable to status, and that's worse than burn damage, but the point is that it's different. Is megaHC worse than normal? Possibly, but it's an option that has its own merits and provides something powerful and unique.

    Time and time again people are bringing up the points that mega pokemon A does less damage than the same pokemon with a life orb or some other non-mega setup, as if that completely disqualifies it from seeing any use. Not every pokemon is trained to have 252atk/spa 252spe, and there are a lot of factors to consider in whether each mega will be useful or allow the pokemon to fill a new role.

    I personally think megaheracross is pretty scary, and his lowish speed is needed to keep him from being anything more than that. Additionally, baton pass is attractive for many reasons. A 4-move mega heracross that's passed a substitute and a speed boost might be able to take down 1 of his counters. His type coverage is excellent and without being locked into a move, he's probably going to 2HKO just about anything. He might not be OU and he might be used more without his mega than with, but it looks like a fun option and could surprise people.
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  14. Vredesbyrd

    Vredesbyrd

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    I think there is a niche for a Choice Band wallbreaking set for Heracross this generation mostly because Guts is a great Ability and possibly a late game sweeper with Sticky Web support. You also hit harder and are a bit faster as well than it's Mega Evolution counterpart. I think that since there is so much hype around Aegislash, Earthquake is a good option for coverage. EQ is also good against Tentacruel and any other Poison types that may show up.

    Still, it looks like MegaCross could run a Bulk Up set with those upgraded defenses. If only it didn't have that lackluster design. :/
  15. Kejmur

    Kejmur

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    BTW I admitted that for defensive sets and bulky attacking sets MegaHeracross is better. I never said that it's useless. I still prefer normal Heracross if I look for a sweeper/wall-breaker (and in previous generation the problem wasn't his typing, bulk or power, because Bug/Fighting has some great resistances, but speed. He was too slow to outspeed stuff and I hoped for something that would allow him to be better. And I mentioned taking from his attack stat to balance him out, as I think 185 base attack Pokemon with 115 speed or more would be (at least in theory) really hard to stop. Yeah, he takes status damage, but it also mean that he's immune to status, which is HUGE for wall-breaker/sweeper, especially against more defensive teams. I still stay by my statement - I still prefer normal Heracross over MegaHeracross as he can fill more roles than mega. Although mega still has some decent niche for bulky attacking (or as bulky pivot/tank), I admit. I guess it's preference - honestly I just wanted to see an upgrade to old Heracross, as he desperately needed IMO and results are not bad, but could be better in my opinion. Or at least different ability, Skill Link is cool with moves he has (more accurate moves always help) but something like Trace or something interesting like this would secure his spot over normal Heracross. Right now IMO not really outside of 2-3 small advantages over normal one. But we'll see.
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2013
  16. jas61292

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    Mega Heracross, very much like Mega Garchomp, suffers from severe bias due to how its stats turned out (I know there is a specific type of bias here, but I can't remember which it is) . While objectively you can look at it and see many ways in which it is indeed a better Pokemon than its normal form, because people used it one way, and the changes did not just make it better at functioning in that one way, they get turned off and don't consider it to its full potential.

    With that said, I think Heracross will be really awesome this gen. Mega Heracross is really bulky and, like has already been said, has a fantastic defensive typing. The one problem I see is that it lacks any real way to recover HP. Rest talk is an OK idea, but despite the higher bulk, regular Hera give competition there due to the fact that it can pick up a Guts bonus. I think the best thing Mega Hera can do will probably be to just go all out as a bulky attacker. Bulk Up is an option, but without speed or recovery, taking hits to setup is not idea. However, with something like Pin Missile/Close Combat/Rock Blast/Filler, it can certainly put on a lot of offensive pressure.
  17. Zarco

    Zarco

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    I honestly don't like Megacross. Guts and Moxie plus an item, along with its already high-BP moves, makes the regular form about as strong, or stronger, with a lot more offensive utility. The defense boost is wonderful, but Heracross needs special defense more. And the speed drop really hurts it.

    It could run some decent Bulk Up, Wallbreaker, or Restalk (CroCross?) sets, but it still has to switch in as regular Cross first so the defenses aren't huge, and it honestly might not be worth a spot over some Megas that DO make big improvements to the Pokemon. In other words, you get a huge boost from Mega Absol, Mega Gengar, Mega Mawile, etc. over their originals... do you get that same magnitude of boost with Mega Heracross?
  18. Jaroda

    Jaroda

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    Doesn't Sleep not activate Guts? Only poison, paralysis and burn.

    I agree with you on the first point. The fact that Megacross can fulfill different roles from Heracross means that Heracross in general is more versatile. And ironically with what I'm noticing to be "reverse" speed creep, Bulk Up on a pokemon that fierce is devastating. The problem is that both his STABs are ineffective against Ghost, Poison, Fairy AND Flying types, meaning you can't cover everything. A Rock move at least hits those four types at least neutrally. Perhaps it'd be wise to actually forego a Fighting move altogether? Considering Arm Trust is lack luster and Close Combat defeats the purpose on something so slow and bulky. Bug, Rock and Ground offenses now gives you must safer coverage.

    And oh man, come December you can transfer a Heracross that knows FOCUS Punch. Is that not the strongest STAB Focus Punch in the game? That is the definition of wall breaking right there. I can't seem to find a damage calculator with mega pokemon but it seems fearsome.
  19. JamesHardenBeard

    JamesHardenBeard

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    How do you guys feel about speed on a mega Heracross? Is it even worth it?

    I was thinking you could run Jolly Moxie Heracross, send him out to finish a kill, +1 attack from Moxie, then Mega evolve. Problem with that is.. his skill link wouldn't be activated yet, so some of him moves would be unreliable (if you're running pin missile, rock blast, etc). So I assume you would use Close Combat to get the quick kill, but would that be ruining Mega Heracross' niche as a bulky 'mon? (considering his defensive drops from CC)

    Would a bulky spread work better? Something like 252 HP / 252 Attack?
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2013
  20. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    cleaned up

    i kept a few discussion questions to go off of, but i wanted to get thoughts on guts vs moxie. personally, i think guts is much better, basically for this reason - there just aren't enough scenarios where heracross is going to want to do anything with moxie. his attacks are just too unreliable, especially as his item would be an unused mega stone, and if you choose to moxie close combat, then that kind of defeats the point of his good defenses the megalution takes on, especially with that lowered speed. i think that being able to switch into a will o wisp as a last desperate act is far more relevant for mega heracross. obviously, you're not hoping to use either ability.. ever, but i think that just with a higher accuracy will o wisp, and the defensive mons using them (rotom-w/gourgeist/etc) the situations where you're going to want it are bound to come up far more often. one last point against moxie: it's usefulness basically comes from being able to sweep teams when it gets going, but obviously heracross is going to be pretty slow (and the speed evs (and lack thereof) discussion is a good one to be had as well) so it's going to look to get going vs defensive teams, as offensive ones will just outspeed and revenge if they get moxied on. i just have to ask what type of defensive team wont be able to counter a pin missile/rock blast/close combat/bullet seed initially unboosted heracross in the first place? are we pretending we're going to use a set up move like bulk up or swords dance without mega evolving?
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  21. silenced

    silenced

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    At first, I wasn't too happy about the mega-evo heracross got, but after running a few clacs for UU (I'm assuming for the time being heracross is staying UU), I'm a lot less skeptical, and will acknowledge it does have some utility.

    Note: The following calcs are done on honkalculator with a custom move of base 125 power to represent pin missile and arm thrust since neither appeared when I tried to select those moves. nature I am assuming to be adamant. No hazards are assumed to be in play, as I prefer to know without hazards as a general rule first.

    252+ Atk Skill Link (custom) Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Cofagrigus: 145-175 (45.45 - 54.85%) -- 5.86% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Skill Link (custom) Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 110-135 (34.48 - 42.31%) -- 79.37% chance to 3HKO
    252+ Atk Skill Link (custom) Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 225-265 (65.02 - 76.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Skill Link (custom) Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Zapdos: 330-390 (86.16 - 101.82%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Skill Link (custom) Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 480-570 (135.21 - 160.56%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Skill Link (custom) Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 95-115 (28.44 - 34.43%) -- 2.66% chance to 3HKO
    -1 252+ Atk Skill Link (custom) Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Qwilfish: 120-145 (35.92 - 43.41%) -- 97.41% chance to 3HKO
    -1 252+ Atk (custom) (Move 2) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 145-172 (47.69 - 56.57%) -- 31.64% chance to 2HKO
    *note for hitmontop move 2 represents arm thrust*

    So you pretty much demolish most walls UU has to offer with megaheracross, with only the most dedicated of walls being able to stand up to you. You're looking at about 168? speed EV's to outpace any possible speed creeping nidoqueens to make sure you score the 2HKO before you get hit by fireblast in return, but otherwise Xatu partners almost perfectly with megaheracross, stopping both gligar and qwilfish from doing anything overly dangerous, though you are stuck roosting/U-turning out against cofagrigus. Natural cure users such as roserade and shaymin also partner very well, being able to take the status problems any of the few surviving walls can throw at you, and proceed to wallbreak/set-up themselves. That is pretty brutal.

    In terms of typing though, something that resists both fire and flying would be greatly appreciated as a team-mate (Rhyperior is looking good here). The only major disadvantage to mega-evolving is being forced out against max speed chandelure (which was becoming a thing at some stage). Otherwise, a major threat to deal with really.
  22. Mecawallace

    Mecawallace

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    There are a few main things that people aren't actually considering that hinder Mega-Heracross.

    The ideal way to play him is probably through a Baton-Pass speed boost, which really even after a single +1 he's ready to take on the world. But the primary user of Baton-Pass nowadays is Scolipede, who is also a bug, so the opponent may already be using a move which is SE against bugs as you baton pass to Heracross, which will almost certainly OHKO him in his standard state. Using Blaziken as a passer is also a poor idea, as the opponent may switch to Talonflame, who will destroy even Mega-Heracross every single time, regardless of a boost.

    So, it looks like Trick Room is really the only way to go with Mega-Hera, but trick room is also not nearly as good in Singles. It seems to me like Mega-Hera is just created to wreck in Doubles and that's about it.
  23. pedro702

    pedro702

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    im the only one thinking the speed doesnt help him much?

    Im running
    adamant 252 atk 252 speed 4 hp
    He just feels lackbuster, sure he hits hard but his defenses arent that good without investment

    Wouldnt something like this work better

    Bulk up Set
    Heracross
    Careful nature
    252Hp 160Spdef 96 Speed
    Bulk up
    Close combat
    Rock Blast
    Pin missile/EQ

    with 96 speed evs you would outspeed base 86 speed pokemon that dont invest in speed,after one bulk up you got more atack than adamant with 252 evs in atack, you get 609 atack and you got 364/399/314 defenses which ins bad at all imo.
  24. Verminator

    Verminator

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    That's not a bad idea, but in that case you don't want to be compromising your own defenses by using Close Combat. This sounds like a scenario where Arm Thrust is probably a much better choice.
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  25. pedro702

    pedro702

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    arm thrust is lackbuster really since its a 15 powered move wich becomes 75 on 5 hits which is pathetic i prefer to loose the defense than having to take several hits

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