Your forgetting somebody
LoL anyways, will be fun to abuse the sun, as chlorophyl users really needed the perma weather. I can also see leaf guard becoming a very viable option on stuff like jumpluff and meganium.
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Here Comes The Sun!
- Thread starter IcyMan28
- Start date
LoL anyways, will be fun to abuse the sun, as chlorophyl users really needed the perma weather. I can also see leaf guard becoming a very viable option on stuff like jumpluff and meganium.
Shouldn't Grudge be an option for Ninetales? She can strip off all the PP of a move like Surf or Earthquake to make it much easier for your other sweepers to set-up, such as Venusaur.
I haven't created a completely successful sunlight based team thus far, but from what I can tell it heavily relies on Dugtrio. Politoed is difficult to deal with but manageable. Tyranitar however is a really big problem, and is everywhere. The only consistent way to completely eliminate him early on is via Dugtrio. Otherwise an intelligent player will just continue to swap Tyranitar out when it is threatened before Ninetales has fainted, and unlike rain or sand based teams, sunlight teams need Drought functioning in order to be effective.
I'd also like to add that sunlight teams are very hard to manage due to the restraints on Ninetales, as well as having to rely on Dugtrio. Many of the (reasonable) rolls Ninetales could play it can't because of its restriction on move pool when using the ability Drought, so it loses out on options, and often times becomes dead weight. Dugtrio also becomes a free switch in because of its reliance on Earthquake to take out Tyranitar, and other threats as well.
There is also the problem of Stealth Rock, which despite my previous assumptions of its prevalence in the Gen V universe, is now more common than ever. Most sunlight teams can't afford to not have a Rapid Spin user, and there is none that benefit from the weather the way Doryuuzu or Tentacruel/Forretress do, so you're including usually three Pokemon on the team at least that are practically dead weight or don't largely benefit from the suns use, which leaves little room to abuse the weather.
tl;dr Drought teams aren't very good, sadly.
I'd also like to add that sunlight teams are very hard to manage due to the restraints on Ninetales, as well as having to rely on Dugtrio. Many of the (reasonable) rolls Ninetales could play it can't because of its restriction on move pool when using the ability Drought, so it loses out on options, and often times becomes dead weight. Dugtrio also becomes a free switch in because of its reliance on Earthquake to take out Tyranitar, and other threats as well.
There is also the problem of Stealth Rock, which despite my previous assumptions of its prevalence in the Gen V universe, is now more common than ever. Most sunlight teams can't afford to not have a Rapid Spin user, and there is none that benefit from the weather the way Doryuuzu or Tentacruel/Forretress do, so you're including usually three Pokemon on the team at least that are practically dead weight or don't largely benefit from the suns use, which leaves little room to abuse the weather.
tl;dr Drought teams aren't very good, sadly.
I could not agree more with Ulevo. Sun teams also have to deal with Heatran (Balloon is particularly annoying for the physical sweepers who rely on EQ)
I don't think Drought Ninetails is going to overpowering like we predicted. Still, sun teams are very fun to use. I was using Growth Tangrowth, and it was pretty effective at dismantling teams, while Venusaur cleans up lategame.
Edit: DW Ninetails doesn't have any move restrictions.
Edit 2: Oh.
I don't think Drought Ninetails is going to overpowering like we predicted. Still, sun teams are very fun to use. I was using Growth Tangrowth, and it was pretty effective at dismantling teams, while Venusaur cleans up lategame.
Edit: DW Ninetails doesn't have any move restrictions.
Edit 2: Oh.
It does with moves like Sleep Talk and Magic Coat.
EDIT: Also, another piece of evidence indicating GameFreak has shafted abusers of sunlight while favouring those that abuse rain is Leaf Guard no longer cures Sleep status upon using Rest, unlike Hydration which still works the way it did in Gen IV.
EDIT: Also, another piece of evidence indicating GameFreak has shafted abusers of sunlight while favouring those that abuse rain is Leaf Guard no longer cures Sleep status upon using Rest, unlike Hydration which still works the way it did in Gen IV.
A Tales set with WoW to cripple TTar switchins hoping to pursuit it can help if Dugtrio is switching in, which will probably be happening as Tales rarely KOs stuff if you use a defensive spread. That followed by an Energy Ball to the face should deal with it nicely.
Macho Brace is an option if you really want to get Sun up first, but its probably better to just not use it as a lead.
I agree totally that Tales should not be used as a lead in most cases. I've been using a Porygon2 with Magic Coat to prevent excessive hazards and reflect Taunts, which works decently when considering its insane bulk (helpful since Sun teams lack that).
However, its main boon with my lead and the main issue with Genosect is its inability to stop SR preemptively, which many Sun teams love. You can even get away with not carrying a spinner if this is the case, occasionally. But since my team has only a minor hazard weakness, I'll give this a try as it looks rather awesome.
It is an option, but I prefer the Protect/Disable approach if you wish to prevent something using a particular move (and this may allow Tales to survive, too).
In all honestly I have never felt the need for Dugtrio on my Sun teams, which whilst not leaderboard topping are pretty reliable and have got me to the top 100 in DW. I can see how it would be useful, but I was incredibly paranoid about other weathers whilst building my team, and I guess this has meant that unless 2 are run (Sandstorm) my team usually has little difficulty taking them down (Often before Tales is even revealed), unless they likewise conceal their weather until pretty late-game. I use Jolly Tangrowth to eliminate TTar whilst being able to take most of its attacks well even out of Sun, for example.
I don't think we should be deciding wholeheartedly that all Sun teams require Dugtrio until the meta settles somewhat. It may turn out to be in a few months when people become used to permaSun and how to deal with it, but as my experience attests to, it does not seem to be essential as of yet in any case.
Tales is somewhat of a lame duck, but so is Toed - both wre NU before their ability. This is counteracted by the strength they give to the rest of their team with their ability. I don't think the movepool restrictions have that great of an effect, Tales may be predictable but has a reasonable amount of viable moves.
In Gen 4 I did not use a spinner on my Sun teams, I used a Taunt lead to prevent SR going up early on, and from there usually was able to attain enough momentum to take the match without it overtly affecting me even if it went up later on. Following the same mantra this Gen - don't use too many SR weak pokes (I run 2 fires with 2x weaks and Infernape), have a T-Spikes absorber in Venusaur, and a lead to prevent SR initially (Porygon2), I have rarely been hugely impacted by hazards.
Ofc running Ulgamoth or Charizard will necessitate a Spinner, but avoiding them and playing a somewhat HO style will mean you rampage through the opponent's team before they have time to decimate you with SR. The issue is when the opposing weather starter does not go down and you run out of times to bring Tales in, but I have been able to avoid this most times.
I concur that no spinner benefits from Sun significantly whatsoever, however I have been using one poke that does not benefit from weather and doing reasonably well, showing using half your team to deal with SR and trapping duties is not essential.
Finally, although Sun may not be the sheer multipurpose weather that Sand is, nor have the same sheer power as Rain, I still think it contends with both of these weathers to a reasonable extent, as well as the meta, and is very useable.
I was so disappointed when I found this out. I reckon it may be because Sun abusers get Synthesis, which is also useable in no weather conditions? This move does make stallish Leaf Guard Sun teams a possibility, but in general it seems pretty inferior to the classic HO style Sun team.
I had thought about using Espeon to bounce hazards back to the opposing side of the field, as not only do sun teams not have many options to deal with entry hazards, they also have very little methods of setting them up. However I can't think of a useful way to use Espeon other for using its ability; it reminds me of Ninetales in that it isn't very good. It's Tyranitar bait, is frail, et cetera...
Genosekuto worked really well as the lead. It caught every Politoed off guard and killed it instantly, and typically at that point I would still have the ability to abuse Thunder before switching to Ninetales. Even when Tyranitar or Politoed didn't lead on the opposite team, it still reasonable damage. I wish I could say the rest of the team worked as well.
Ulgamoth with the following set worked well despite my team being crippled at times:
Ulgamoth @ Leftovers
Calm/Swarm
252 HP/216 SpD/32 SPD
- Flame Dance
- Butterfly Dance
- Bug Buzz
- Substitute
The goal was to set up Butterfly Dance on the switch, and if opponents attempted to use status to cripple Ulgamoth, it would set up a free Substitute and continue to stat boost. Substitute also helped to lower its HP and gain the Swarm boost. I feel that this set only worked because it was Ulgamoth, and not because of the benefits the sunlight brought. Actually, half the time I managed to sweep with it, another weather condition was up. There were many times when Stealth Rock just robbed it of health and it was useless.
Another Pokemon I used that seemed to work well as an individual, but not synergetically was Celebi:
Celebi @ Light Clay
Impish/Natural Cure
252 HP/192 DFP/56 SPD
- U-Turn
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Recover
It's goal was to attempt to set up long lasting screens so a Ulgamoth sweep was possible. Thanks to Natural Cure + Recover, I never had to be concerned about status wearing it down, and it is incredibly hard to beat with screens. U-Turn is dual purpose in that it allows me to switch to appropriate counter after screens are up, and it also helps me to break Breloom Substitutes. 56 Speed outruns max speed Jolly Breloom, the rest got to defense investment.
Genosekuto worked really well as the lead. It caught every Politoed off guard and killed it instantly, and typically at that point I would still have the ability to abuse Thunder before switching to Ninetales. Even when Tyranitar or Politoed didn't lead on the opposite team, it still reasonable damage. I wish I could say the rest of the team worked as well.
Ulgamoth with the following set worked well despite my team being crippled at times:
Ulgamoth @ Leftovers
Calm/Swarm
252 HP/216 SpD/32 SPD
- Flame Dance
- Butterfly Dance
- Bug Buzz
- Substitute
The goal was to set up Butterfly Dance on the switch, and if opponents attempted to use status to cripple Ulgamoth, it would set up a free Substitute and continue to stat boost. Substitute also helped to lower its HP and gain the Swarm boost. I feel that this set only worked because it was Ulgamoth, and not because of the benefits the sunlight brought. Actually, half the time I managed to sweep with it, another weather condition was up. There were many times when Stealth Rock just robbed it of health and it was useless.
Another Pokemon I used that seemed to work well as an individual, but not synergetically was Celebi:
Celebi @ Light Clay
Impish/Natural Cure
252 HP/192 DFP/56 SPD
- U-Turn
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Recover
It's goal was to attempt to set up long lasting screens so a Ulgamoth sweep was possible. Thanks to Natural Cure + Recover, I never had to be concerned about status wearing it down, and it is incredibly hard to beat with screens. U-Turn is dual purpose in that it allows me to switch to appropriate counter after screens are up, and it also helps me to break Breloom Substitutes. 56 Speed outruns max speed Jolly Breloom, the rest got to defense investment.
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
Leaf Gaurd rest worked in 4th gen? I thought it failed there too because unlike hydration it blocks status altogether.
I've tried using dugtrio on sun teams before and he was dead wieght nearly all of the time. I've had success leading with pokemon like anti-lead infernape, forretress, and sableye. All three pokemon can prevent rocks from ever going up. Sableye gains a sun boosted moonlight. Forry gains a resistance to water. Infernape is just awesome and gains a sun boosted flare blitz/overheat (I run overheat since I'm using a sash anti lead). Forry is the one I use most as Volt Change going second has allowed me several free switches to Ninetales.
As for Ninetales, I run a balloon as I've said several times already and I cannot stress how amazing it has been. Either I can predict the EQ and get a free switch, or just revenge switch with Ninetales. Dugtrio has never been a problem too because of this as I just switch out, but Scarftar has always been a problem. The protect/disable set may help me there.
I've played with several pokemon on sun teams and enemy heatrans are rarely an issue. Scarftran is slower than Venusaur, etc in the sun and will not like taking EQ or nature powered earthquakes. And if the sun isn't up, then unaware quagsire is my man, forcing heatran out and hurting something else in the process. His benefits from the sun are an actual resistance to water, meaning he no longer needs to run water absorb anyway.
As for charizard, he sucks. Don't bother running him unless you like him or something. Even with solar power, he still isn't worth it. With spin support (which you'll need for Charleyzard anyway), I would MUCH rather prefer flash fire choice scarf eruption typhlosion. Sun boosted, flash fire eruptions>charizard all around. Hell, even Arcanine has been better. Being able to dish out flash fire boosted flare blitz while taking down T-tar and Politoed, only having problems with Hippodown (who is dealt with by grass pokemon even if no sun is up). Hell, even HOUNDOOM was better than Charizard for me, benefiting off the flash fire switch for foretress (shed shell) or being baton passed to by leafeon (shandera coming in on it while sun is up) and revenging shandera.
I mentioned Umbreon earlier over Cresselia due to her being an all around useless pokemon and umbreon not being tyranitar fodder like the rest of the team. He meant I no longer needed Sucker punch on victreebel, opting for HP ground instead, and he handles the lati@s duo better than houndoom due to actually being able to swtich. Once again, moonlight. I've also had success running slamence, garchomp, and even sazandora.
I'll admit, sun may not be the number one weather out there. It may not be able to stall like rain and sand. However, it is still a viable option and I believe it will still be once the metagame stabilizes.
I've tried using dugtrio on sun teams before and he was dead wieght nearly all of the time. I've had success leading with pokemon like anti-lead infernape, forretress, and sableye. All three pokemon can prevent rocks from ever going up. Sableye gains a sun boosted moonlight. Forry gains a resistance to water. Infernape is just awesome and gains a sun boosted flare blitz/overheat (I run overheat since I'm using a sash anti lead). Forry is the one I use most as Volt Change going second has allowed me several free switches to Ninetales.
As for Ninetales, I run a balloon as I've said several times already and I cannot stress how amazing it has been. Either I can predict the EQ and get a free switch, or just revenge switch with Ninetales. Dugtrio has never been a problem too because of this as I just switch out, but Scarftar has always been a problem. The protect/disable set may help me there.
I've played with several pokemon on sun teams and enemy heatrans are rarely an issue. Scarftran is slower than Venusaur, etc in the sun and will not like taking EQ or nature powered earthquakes. And if the sun isn't up, then unaware quagsire is my man, forcing heatran out and hurting something else in the process. His benefits from the sun are an actual resistance to water, meaning he no longer needs to run water absorb anyway.
As for charizard, he sucks. Don't bother running him unless you like him or something. Even with solar power, he still isn't worth it. With spin support (which you'll need for Charleyzard anyway), I would MUCH rather prefer flash fire choice scarf eruption typhlosion. Sun boosted, flash fire eruptions>charizard all around. Hell, even Arcanine has been better. Being able to dish out flash fire boosted flare blitz while taking down T-tar and Politoed, only having problems with Hippodown (who is dealt with by grass pokemon even if no sun is up). Hell, even HOUNDOOM was better than Charizard for me, benefiting off the flash fire switch for foretress (shed shell) or being baton passed to by leafeon (shandera coming in on it while sun is up) and revenging shandera.
I mentioned Umbreon earlier over Cresselia due to her being an all around useless pokemon and umbreon not being tyranitar fodder like the rest of the team. He meant I no longer needed Sucker punch on victreebel, opting for HP ground instead, and he handles the lati@s duo better than houndoom due to actually being able to swtich. Once again, moonlight. I've also had success running slamence, garchomp, and even sazandora.
I'll admit, sun may not be the number one weather out there. It may not be able to stall like rain and sand. However, it is still a viable option and I believe it will still be once the metagame stabilizes.
Infernape and Shedinja can be good in the sun too.
Well, if using Zard or Ulgamoth, it's pretty much essential to keep rocks off the field. It isn't too bad of a lead - preventing every form of hazards along with being immune to taunt. This means it can setup screens reliably and pass them with BP, much as your Celebi did, only avoiding Pursuits with BP. Its also possible to have something else in the lead spot then switch it in if you think a hazard is on the way.
It does look pretty nice, like i said its just a toss-up between whether you can afford to let SR get up. Any U-Turner with strong attacks would perform similarly, I'd imagine.
Well, the Sun boost to Flame Dance makes it a viable choice of itself - becoming as powerful as Fire Blast out of Sun while being wholly accurate and SpAtk boosting. I know what you mean, however - in that this set functions perfectly well out of Sun. In a way if you're running major hazard prevention for other pokes you may as well abuse this, but aside from that it isn't one of the pokes boosted most by Sun.
I'd imagine that sweepers like Venusaur really like dual screens too, though I haven't tried it. However, pretty much every sweeper with something to set up loves screens (Growth/Butterfly Dance), so I don't doubt its effectiveness. However, surely with Celebi's Fire and Dark weakness, it would be possible for another poke to fulfil this role, even if it loses out on Natural Cure?
I honestly am not sure, In 4th Gen the lack of permasun meant I always felt compelled to run HO teams with it. In any case, Leaf Guard this Gen doesn't seem too great.
I had tried Forry and he worked well, but since I did not realize he got Volt Change he never really shone. I am so going to try this out now XD. I played around with a lead Erufuun to prevent rocks, which did its job, but little more. I'll have to test out the other MH pokes too. Infernape is ofc an awesome lead, and is good to run as a normal poke under wifi rules to confuse your opponent as to who will lead.
Being immune to EQ would help me vastly with switching into Swampert leads i must admit, but throwing away Tales' only viable recovery in Lefties is a high price to pay, sadly. If only it got recover...
I've honestly never seen a Dugtrio on DW, but if Vulpix is released legally and I play on wifi shall definitely consider Balloon. As for ScarfTar, if you have seen it at least once before, its safe to assume it's coming in on Tales, allowing you to throw out a WoW and cripple it. Even when switching, Tales cannot be 3HKOd by normal TTars when burned, and the same is true for a 2HKO with pursuit for a Banded TTar. Try that if you fancy your prediction skills and being able to piss off every TTar there is.
I run a Sub Flash Fire Shanderaa and he just loves Choiced Heatrans. As for balloon, it can be a slight issue as it tends to require one sac to break the balloon, but from then on Heatran is useless and you are free to spam Fire moves to your hearts content.
Scarfzard is pretty much the only one I consider viable, but Typhlosion gives it competition. Its Dragon Pulse is very useful to the somewhat dragon weak Sun team, however.
I may try out Umbreon as my team absolutely hates the Latis, and could use Wish support.
I pretty much concur with this. I'm not getting my hopes up that Sun will be the dominant weather, but it will still be a viable threat and team in my opinion.
The lack of speed is pretty much the only thing that puts me off Heatran - I like to either have speed boosting fire types or ones with Priority. Nitro Charge is possible I guess though, I'd probs try that if used it.
Rain is pretty much fine if you kill Toed as your Grass types will clean up nearly every Rain sweeper with ease. TTar can be an issue but there are enough ways to get around it, as you said.
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
Will respond to more stuff when I get back on my computer.
Meganium @ Light Clay
Leaf Gaurd
Bold
252 HP, 188 def, 72 spdef
Reflect
Light Screen
Dragon tail
Synthesis/Aromatherapy/Petal Dance/Filler
Leaf Gaurd protects you from status effects while you set up screens. Doesn't mind breloom and can phase with ease, especially with screens up. Aromatherapy is for cleric purposes. Synthesis is there for healing. Petal Dance is risky due to being move locked, but it doesn't confuse when its over.
The main selling point though has to be dragon tail. Works decently with hazards set up.
Meganium @ Light Clay
Leaf Gaurd
Bold
252 HP, 188 def, 72 spdef
Reflect
Light Screen
Dragon tail
Synthesis/Aromatherapy/Petal Dance/Filler
Leaf Gaurd protects you from status effects while you set up screens. Doesn't mind breloom and can phase with ease, especially with screens up. Aromatherapy is for cleric purposes. Synthesis is there for healing. Petal Dance is risky due to being move locked, but it doesn't confuse when its over.
The main selling point though has to be dragon tail. Works decently with hazards set up.
I use Nitro Charge. After two Nitro Charges Heatran outspeeds Dory. And getting two against a SS team is rather easy, as I'll switch in on their Scizor or Nattorei, Nitro Charge as they switch out to Dory, Dory pops my balloon but I get my second Nitro Charge in, and Dory cant survive a Heatran fire blast.
Please enlighten us on how +2 Heatran outspeeds +2 Dory.
It just did? It's happened quite often? I don't do calcs but it happened on PO. No need for snark.
A)Who switches a relatively frail Fire weak Pokemon into Heatran?
B)Heatran has a lower base speed than Doryuuzu, and the latter's ability gives him +2 speed in sand. A lot of Dory's run Jolly, thus you will not outspeed.
I switch into their steel pokemon. And Idk, I guess all the Dory's ive come across are Adamant?
Read what you wrote. You come into their Scizor/Nattorei, Nitro Charge as they switch to Dory. Now back up and realize Fire Blast OHKOs on the switch. And I guess so.
I get that? But I cant always bet it's a Dory, sometimes I do Fire Blast on the switch but I Nitro Charge more often.
It's not about what you are predicting, but it's about the other person's point of view. Why would they switch from Scizor/Nattorei to a Pokemon that is weak to Fire while a Heatran is out? It just makes no sense.
I guess they think Dory can destroy Heatran. Although, it is a new meta and people are still adjusting to it.
Despite the fact that they KNOW they can't hit you super effectively (since Balloon gives a message) AND they risk switching into the most obvious move Heatran would use on Scizor/Nattorei (Fire Blast). Your opponents are either really, really stupid or you're using some kind of black magic.
I don't know who you've been playing, but no one good uses Adamant lol. Entire games come down to Doryuuzu speed ties. Risking Adamant while not scoring any significant 1-2HKOs isn't worth it. Doryuuzu can't switch in at all except with Balloon against EP. If you're switching from Scizor/Nattorei, then I doubt they're expecting an EP lol.
I'm sorry but this post makes no sense to me. You say that "no one good uses Jolly" and then going on to say "risking Adamant while not scoring any significant 1-2HKOs isn't worth it." In the latter case you seem to be suggesting that Jolly is the preferred nature, contradicting your first point. :S