HG/SS Moveset Additions for LC

Seven Deadly Sins

~hallelujah~
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Code:
Level-up move changes:
Hippopotas: Dig

Egg move additions:
Bulbasaur: Power Whip, Sludge
Squirtle: Water Spout
Spearow: FeatherDance
Ekans: Switcheroo
Sandshrew: Mud Shot
Nidoran♀: Skull Bash, Amnesia, Confusion, Sucker Punch, Head Smash
Vulpix: Power Swap
Oddish: Teeter Dance
Paras: Agility
Diglett: Reversal
Meowth: Tail Whip
Psyduck: Encore
Mankey: Encore
Growlithe: Morning Sun
Poliwag: Encore
Machop: Power Trick
Bellsprout: Weather Ball
Tentacool: Muddy Water
Geodude: Curse
Ponyta: Morning Sun
Seel: Stockpile, Swallow, Spit Up
Shellder: Rock Blast
Gastly: Disable
Drowzee: Guard Swap
Krabby: Agility
Exeggcute: Power Swap
Cubone: Detect
Lickitung: Muddy Water
Rhyhorn: Skull Bash
Tangela: Power Swap
Horsea: Razor Wind, Muddy Water
Goldeen: Body Slam
Eevee: Detect
Omanyte: Muddy Water
Dratini: ExtremeSpeed
Cyndaquil: Extrasensory
Totodile: Aqua Jet
Pichu: Flail
Cleffa: Aromatherapy
Togepi: Extrasensory
Wooper: Recover
Murkrow: Brave Bird
Misdreavus: Nasty Plot
Pineco: Power Trick
Gligar: Power Trick
Sneasel: Assist
Teddiursa: Belly Drum
Remoraid: Water Spout
Houndour: Feint
Phanpy: Head Smash
Smoochum: Nasty Plot
Elekid: Feint
Magby: Belly Drum
Treecko: Razor Wind
Torchic: FeatherDance
Mudkip: Yawn, Sludge
Lotad: Counter
Seedot: Power Swap
Ralts: Encore
Whismur: Hammer Arm
Makuhita: Feint
Nosepass: Head Smash
Skitty: Mud Bomb
Aron: Head Smash
Electrike: Switcheroo
Wailmer: Aqua Ring
Numel: Stockpile, Swallow, Spit Up
Trapinch: Mud Shot
Cacnea: Nasty Plot
Swablu: Power Swap
Barboach: Dragon Dance
Corphish: Dragon Dance
Lileep: Curse
Anorith: Curse
Snorunt: Weather Ball
Spheal: Aqua Ring
Clamperl: Muddy Water
Turtwig: Stockpile, Swallow, Spit Up
Chimchar: Assist
Piplup: FeatherDance
Shinx: Night Slash
Cranidos: Curse
Shieldon: Counter
Cherubi: Weather Ball
Shellos: Trump Card, Sludge
Drifloon: Weather Ball
Buneary: Flail
Glameow: Flail
Stunky: Haze
Mime Jr.: Nasty Plot
Happiny: Mud Bomb
Gible: Mud Shot
Munchlax: Counter
Riolu: Follow Me
Hippopotas: Revenge
Croagunk: Counter
Snover: Skull Bash
 
So should we add these on to the current analysis?

Major Changes:

Squirtle - Water Spout
Paras - Agility
Poliwag - Encore
Bellsprout - Weather Ball
Krabby - Agility
Dratini - Extremespeed
Totodile - Aqua Jet
Midreavus - Nasty Plot
Remoraid - Water Spout
Barboach - Dragon Dance
Corphish - Dragon Dance
 
So should we add these on to the current analysis?
not until we actually test them :/

The only important ones:

Misdreavus w/ Nasty Plot: Easily broken, I think MGX was saying earlier that it could ohko munchlax with np hp fighting -.-. I don't want to theorymon a lot here but it obviously will be impressive.

Corphish/Krabby w/ Dragon Dance/Agility: Put them together because they are krabs -.-. Anywho, both of these Pokemon are gonna be very tough to beat in the near future, Krabby can abuse 28 Speed and 22 Attack with Agility, while Corphish can just use Waterfall/Return/Dragon Dance with a decent Attack.

Barboach w/ Dragon Dance: uh lol, Barboach is going to completely destroy a lot of Little Cup with Spark/Waterfall/Earthquake/Dragon Dance. Other than Midsreavus, probably the biggest addition.

Dratini w/ Extremespeed: Should be interesting but not much of an improvement. Dragon Dance already provides plenty of Speed. A great way to finish off Pokemon like Croagunk though.

Remoraid w/ Water Spout: Going to be around the same "greatness" of Wailmer, especially with Flamethrower available.

Paras w/ Agility: Spore / Agility / Sub should be interesting if you can pull it off correctly, nothing really "great"

Poliwag w/ Encore: Encore/Belly Drum should really be fun considering Poliwag already has a great Speed.

Totodile w/ Aqua Jet: A huge change, Swords Dance / Sub / Aqua Jet / Return will be a great set, and if not, it will be something to that effect.


There are some other interesting ones but wanted to comment on those for now.
 

Deck Knight

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We have more info on Tutors now:

Potentially useful tutors:

Bug Bite: Does damage, eats berries.
Tail Wind. Self Explanatory.
Low Kick: Has more power than Brick Break on Munchlax, Onix, Lickitung, Rhyhorn, Aron/Shieldon, and Bronzor.
Pain Split: Can heal low-HP mons.
Gravity: Diglett can now trap anything, esp. Bronzor.
Worry Seed: Can be used to similar effect as Gravity on Levitators, thwarts what few Rest sets there are, removes Swift Swim and Chlorophyll from their abusers.

Code:
[B]Pain Split:[/B]
Vulpix, Grimer, Koffing, Gastly, Staryu, Porygon, Igglybuff, Natu, Pineco, Slugma, Misdreavus, Ralts, Nosepass, Gulpin, Lileep, Shuppet, Duskull, Shellos, Drifloon.

[B]Tail Wind[/B]
Pidgey, Spearow, Zubat, Hoothoot, Ledyba, Natu, Gligar, Taillow, Wingull, Swablu, Starly, Combee, Drifloon, Finneon.

[B]Gravity[/B]
Abra, Magnemite, Exeggcute, Staryu, Porygon, Cleffa, Igglybuff, Pineco, Nosepass, Baltoy, Duskull, Chingling, Bronzor, Happiny.

[B]Worry Seed[/B]
Bulbasaur, Oddish, Paras, Psyduck,  Bellsprout, Exeggcute, Chikorita, Hoppip, Sunkern, Treecko, Seedot, Shroomish, Cacnea, Lileep, Turtwig, Budew, Cherubi, Snover.

[B]Low Kick[/B]
Mankey, Machop, Drowzee, Cubone, Totodile, Aipom, Snubbull, Tyrogue, Elekid, Treecko, Mudkip, Makuhita, Cacnea, Chimchar, Buneary, Bonsly, Riolu, Croagunk.

[B]Bug Bite[/B]
Caterpie, Weedle, Paras, Venonat, Ledyba, Spinarak, Pineco, Wurmple, Surskit, Nincada, Trapinch, Kricketot, Burmy, Combee, Skorupi.
I'm not sure if Heal Bell would be useful. Other than Sleep, Status moves aren't used a whole lot in LC. There is little time available to actually use the move.

Super Fang only does 50% or Current HP damage. So basically all it does is activate an opponent's Oran Berry...
 
i'm surprised that low kick does more than brick break to anything in LC lol.
i just assumed it didn't and then dismissed it. this is good to know.


i think water spout squirtle could see some good use in a rain dance team

bug bite is going to be great in LC with the prevalence of so many berries

totodile with aqua jet has me very happy. i'm contemplating all the possible sets now

if someone can setup teddiursa successfully, quick feet / belly drum could be pretty brutal, albeit shortlived (like everything else in LC lol)
 
NP Misdreavus. God help us all. I'm liking the two new Water Spout mons, and wondering how the hell a crab and a mud fish can use Dragon Dance.
 
OK just to clear myself, KD24 I was assuming, although Im pretty confident, considering 18x2 = 36 and LO HP fight nearly 2hkoes.

Also fuck man WEATHER BALL BELLSPROUT. SUnny Day becomes soooooo potent now, because BSprout gets a good weather move and now the ability to run any HP at all.

Also Toto AJ is about the biggest non Missy change I see
 

Seven Deadly Sins

~hallelujah~
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Gastrodon also has recover, and has a better ability for stall, better stats, and an arguably better movepool. Quagsire will never outclass Gastrodon until it gets an evolution. But that's not for this thread.

On topic: Igglybuff just lost its niche as the only LC user of Gravity.
 
i don't know why i didn't realize it before, but aron has rock head

head smash could actually be pretty devastating

oran berry / life orb
adamant
196 HP / 196 Atk / 116 Spe
- rock polish
- head smash
- earthquake
- iron head / superpower


haven't done any calculations yet, but i'm sure a 225 BP attack will do some damage, even with only 17 base Atk
and he has some bulk he could set up easily and the Spd EVs could be moved to defenses with rock polish replaced with curse
 

Deck Knight

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Gastrodon also has recover, and has a better ability for stall, better stats, and an arguably better movepool. Quagsire will never outclass Gastrodon until it gets an evolution. But that's not for this thread.

On topic: Igglybuff just lost its niche as the only LC user of Gravity.
Oh how God has fallen.

Incidentely I do think Gravity is huge. The overwhelming majority of Ground immune pokemon are Levitate users, not Flying type, and most of them have piss-poor defense. CB Diglett rises again.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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Lets take a look through those that seem viable. Mostly concentrating on higher level Pokemon, Karp getting Surf would be a massive boost but it would still be crap.

Awesome
(brings the pokemon to another level):

Krabby: Agility
Finally, a really solid water physical speed booster. This could well be AgiliTyke's counterpart with its base 90 Def to protect from most priority.

Totodile: Aqua Jet
Don't think this will be a crazy as some seem to, but Toto's days of almost BL/UU ness are over. SD will be the main one, but it can fit into almost any other set well too.

Murkrow: Brave Bird
Well, its banned but for LC Ubers an extra 50% power on your main STAB is pretty great. Hard to mix with sub, but oh well.

Misdreavus: Nasty Plot
Holy crap. Biggest change of the lot imo.
I'm not going to shout "OMG broken, ban plox", but this may well push it over the edge. Don't think it can fit into the now common Sub SS set though.. maybe a new top one?

Remoraid: Water Spout
Wailmer's true competitor. Hit the same SpA and one more speed, but lacks Wail's massive HP. Still a worthy competitor thanks to getting random stuff like Fire Blast and Psychic as fillers, and being less predictable (Scarf Hustle is also viable).

Aron: Head Smash
A big step up from Rock Slide, doube the power in fact. We may have another viable steel type on our hands! 70 base attack os workible, and if you are careful its type is.. not too horrible. At least its weaknesses are easy to find a switch for, and steel gives nice resists.

Barboach: Dragon Dance
Corphish: Dragon Dance
These two only just got in here, but they will be pretty cool. Corp gives Krabby some competition, and Barb no longer needs scarf to be effective. Maybe it can stay OU?

Poliwag: Encore
Ah. This will please vader. Come in on SR/Screen/Setup and either encore or predict the switch, Hypnosis/Sub and BD away.


Decent (will probably get fair use):

Munchlax: Counter
Will not be on all sets, but it provides an alternitive to Protect! Munch can take most non SE physical attacks comfortably, if you Counter and get Oran then that's just great.

Bellsprout: Weather Ball
100 BP is a lot better than 70, finally it can provide a serious 1KO threat to the things it needs. I have not run calcs, but Bronzor and the grasses are not going to like one of these in the face.

Bulbasaur: Power Whip
Great extra 120 BP STAB option, helps make physical scarfer viable.

Squirtle: Water Spout
Kinda outclassed by Wailmer, but its got some things (surprise, priority) and its hard to go wrong with a 150 BP STAB move.

Paras: Agility
Agility+Spore is cool, and add in SD or sub into the mix to get what could be a great set.

Dratini: ExtremeSpeed
Espeed is awesome, but sadly tini is not the best Pokemon to get it. No STAB, only passible Atk, and its best sets being speed boosting ones anyway, but still ES is going to bring tini up quite a bit, thanks to giving it another thing over Bagon. Could be in the first catagory, borderline.

Phanpy: Head Smash
150 Base Power is a lot, and grants great coverage with Ground STAB+Ice Shard for Gligar and weak stuff. Offencive Phan shoul now be viable.

Smoochum: Nasty Plot
Powerful, good enough STABs and a workible movepool.. but low speed hurts. Still Salac+NP is something to fear, other than the lack of Priority which is major.

Magby: Belly Drum
One of the less gimmicky BDers thanks to Mach Punch, but still a crazily risky set.

Nosepass: Head Smash
Makes offencive Nosepass almost viable. RP, LO, ect... Still 45 base attack is sad.

Numel: Stockpile
This looks fun to say the least thanks to Simple. Still crit weak and no decent healing, but could be highly annoying very quickly.

Lileep: Curse
Damn, and I thought it was annoying with stockpile... Oh well, least its more vulnerable to special hits (shudders at the memory of Lil setting up on Missy's HP Fight and Shadow Ball).

Shieldon: Counter
Helps a otherwise bad pokemon quite a bit, not enough though.

Mime Jr.: Nasty Plot
If it had better speed it would be great, but no. With 16 max its not sweeping and Salac is priority weak..

Croagunk: Counter
Hard to fit in but good for a surprise.

Probably viable (can work, maybe. Also weak Pokemon with a large boost.):

Ekans: Switcheroo
Cool move for choice sets, but Ekans is mehish. Should get some use, raise it a bit.

Electrike: Switcheroo
See above

Growlithe: Morning Sun
The other Intimidating Pokemon in LC got some boost, bulky helps it differentiate from Ponyta but its still in the shadow.

Ponyta: Morning Sun
And there goes Growl's neiche >_>. Still Growl's got intimidate, so pony should not be using this much.

Nidoran♀: Sucker Punch, Head Smash
oo funfun. Nice moves, sadly Nidoran is pretty weak in stats.. but this makes it almost usable.

Diglett: Reversal
Meh, diggy has 4MSS already and Fight+Ground is notoriously redundant. Its nice to build a set around, kinda, but doubt it will be very common.

Cyndaquil: Extrasensory
Decent filler option to the Scarf set.

Wooper: Recover
Woop's best chance I suppose, but its not much. At least it keeps the part ground type. Poor stats kill it though.

Teddiursa: Belly Drum
The chance to get +6 Atk and +1 Speed in a single turn is nice, but it will die to ANYTHING faster or with priority and be easily protect stalled. May end up as the jask-wack of LC, used by noobs but fails against anyone decent.

Houndour: Feint
wastes a moveslot to break a sash with prediction, may gt a bit of use on leads.

Cacnea: Nasty Plot
Lets Cac go special boosting if it wants, surprise a few things that would stop it. Not having SP sucks though.

Spheal: Aqua Ring
Don't have time to theorymon a set out, but.. maybe it would make stallpheal even more annoying?

Buneary: Flail
Glameow: Flail
Could build a set around it, but meh at best I think.

Psyduck: Encore
Mankey: Encore
Encore is decent, but on these, not so much.

May have been a tad inconsistent with the rating, but that gives a good overview I think.
 
I kinda lol,'d at NP Misdreavus because I think (although theorymon at this stage) that it's gonna be pretty damn broken. If you have a choice'd Ground/Fighting/Normal attack you're screwed, since NP+LO I'd bet would OHKO every single pokemon in the metagame with the Ghost/Fight combo. You could only revenge kill it with a scarfer or very strong priority. I'd just run NP/SHadow Ball/HP Fighting/Shadow Sneak @ LO. LO Shadow Sneak we all know will do very good damage to almost everything that has a chance of revenge killing it.

Counter Munchlax, I guarantee you all will be a bitch to kill, unless you can get your fighting type in safely (which needs good prediction, if you can lure your opponent in to using counter).

Agility Crabby may also be a dark horse. Pure water is a fantastic type for a speed booster, with regards to priority resists and it does have a good defence and of course that 105 Base attack.
 
I think the days of houndour are over. And machop too. Getting locked into EQ/Dynamic punch will most likely result in a lose. Missey seems very scary.
 
Thankfully Timid LO Misdreavus can't OHKO 33/19 Munchlax (it has a 2.56% chance to with SR but w/e). It's still damn good and yeah, probably broken.

I also really like Weather Ball Bellsprout and Aqua Jet Totodile now. I think they both still have their faults (Totodile still can't really OHKO stuff with a boosted Aqua Jet, even in Torrent range...), but they can really appreciate the boosts.

Head Smash Aron is obviously nice as well... now I have a new RP Rock-type instead of Rhyhorn ^_^.

Everything else is kinda overrated sorry. Remoraid is still just a crappy Wailmer (what do you want to hit with Flamethrower?) Dragon Dance Barboach is meh... its not exactly bulky so it'll get hit hard setting up which will probably bring it down into priority range. Not to mention base 48 attack isn't the most workable thing ever. Agility Krabby admittedly is cute though but even with its not horrible defense it suffers the same problems as Barboach

Bug Bite is a niec new addition to some movepools though.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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Tutor Moves

Here is a full list of new LC move tutors/Waterfall users. Deck's list missed out the LC Ubers and the less viable tutors. In the main Stark thread the MT moves have not been sifted through to see which had were already possible so many of them may not actually be "new". But I went through this list and removed the existing moves, so if SDS merges this list with the one in the OP it should be perfect.


Tail Wind
Spearow, Zubat, Scyther, Hoothoot, Ledyba, Natu, Gligar, Murkrow, Yanma, Taillow, Wingull, Swablu, Starly, Combee, Drifloon, Finneon.

Gravity
Abra, Magnemite, Exeggcute, Staryu, Porygon, Cleffa, Pineco, Nosepass, Baltoy, Meditite, Duskull, Chingling, Bronzor, Happiny.

Worry Seed
Oddish, Paras, Psyduck, Tangela, Chikorita, Cacnea, Lileep, Snover.

Low Kick
Drowzee, Cubone, Totodile, Aipom, Snubbull, Sneasel, Tyrogue, Treecko, Mudkip, Makuhita, Meditite, Chimchar, Croagunk.

Bug Bite
Scyther, Spinarak, Yanma, Trapinch.

Super fang
Sandshrew, Nidoran♀, Nidoran♂, Zubat, Sentret, Snubbull, Houndour, Poochyena, Zigzagoon, Carvanha, Spheal, Glameow, Croagunk.

Pain Split:
Vulpix, Grimer, Gastly, Tangela, Staryu, Porygon, Igglybuff, Natu, Pineco, Slugma, Ralts, Nosepass, Meditite, Lileep, Shuppet, Shellos, Drifloon.

String Shot

Bulbasaur, Paras, Venonat, Ledyba, Yanma, Pineco, Remoraid, Surskit, Nincada, Lileep, Anorith, Kricketot, Burmy, Combee, Shellos.

Magic coat
Abra, Tentacool, Slowpoke, Magnemite, Drowzee, Voltorb, Staryu, Chikorita, Hoothoot, Cleffa, Igglybuff, Togepi, Natu, Misdreavus, Smoochum, Ralts, Nosepass, Meditite, Baltoy, Shuppet, Drifloon, Buneary, Chingling, Mime Jr..

Role Play
Vulpix, Psyduck, Mankey, Abra, Machop, Cleffa, Igglybuff, Aipom, Houndour, Tyrogue, Smoochum, Makuhita, Meditite, Spoink, Cacnea, Shuppet, Chimchar, Bonsly, Riolu, Lucario, Croagunk, Snover.

Heal Bell
Eevee, Chinchou, Igglybuff, Togepi, Misdreavus, Smoochum, Spoink, Swablu, Buneary, Chingling.

Sky Attack

None (at all)

Block
None (new)

Headbutt
Bulbasaur, Charmander, Squirtle, Rattata, Pikachu, Sandshrew, Nidoran♀, Nidoran♂, Vulpix, Meowth, Psyduck, Mankey, Growlithe, Poliwag, Abra, Machop, Geodude, Ponyta, Onix, Voltorb, Lickitung, Rhyhorn, Tangela, Horsea, Scyther, Eevee, Dratini, Chikorita, Cyndaquil, Totodile, Sentret, Ledyba, Pichu, Cleffa, Igglybuff, Togepi, Mareep, Hoppip, Yanma, Wooper, Misdreavus, Pineco, Gligar, Sneasel, Teddiursa, Swinub, Houndour, Phanpy, Tyrogue, Elekid, Larvitar, Treecko, Torchic, Mudkip, Poochyena, Lotad, Seedot, Ralts, Slakoth, Whismur, Makuhita, Azurill, Nosepass, Skitty, Meditite, Gulpin, Wailmer, Numel, Spoink, Trapinch, Cacnea, Barboach, Baltoy, Anorith, Shuppet, Duskull, Spheal, Beldum, Turtwig, Chimchar, Piplup, Shinx, Shellos, Buneary, Glameow, Stunky, Mime Jr., Happiny, Gible, Munchlax, Riolu, Hippopotas, Skorupi, Snover.

Pokémon Who Learn HM05 Whirlpool:

Squirtle, Psyduck, Poliwag, Tentacool, Slowpoke, Seel, Krabby, Lickitung, Horsea, Goldeen, Staryu, Omanyte, Kabuto, Dratini, Totodile, Sentret, Wooper, Sneasel, Remoraid, Zigzagoon, Lotad, Azurill, Carvanha, Corphish, Feebas, Spheal, Shellos, Munchlax, Mantyke.


At a glance it seem that Gravity teams will be a lot less gimmicky (but still very gimmicky compared to TR and the like).

Tailwind only lasts for 3 turns, so all it does is take away Pisgy's niche. May get used occasionally, but its pretty poor.

Worry Seed and Strong Shot are pretty much plain bad and Role Play is not worth the turn or moveslot. Headbutt is outclassed by Return which everything gets, unless flinches are massively important to you.

Low Kick hits a little harder on a few Pokemon, but is very weak against a vast majority so doubt it will be seen much.

Bug Bite is pretty nice for Scyther, gives Spinarak a usable STAB and Trapinch a workable filler. Yan may try it as well, but 4mss is :(

Super Fang is gimmicky, but I have no doubt someone (draco) will try to use it. And maybe a set on which its effective will be found, 50% damage to any non Ghost switching in is not too bad.

Pain Split gives a whole raft of Pokemon semi reliable healing and hurting, sadly very few of them have the defences to make it work at all. Wonder how offencive pain split (maybe with sash+priority? Or in floon's case Unburden) would work..

Magic Coat will be ready if status leads suddenly become popular again, but untill then sould stay rare.

Heal Bell, if status becomes popular it could be handy but till then doubt it will get used much.

Whirlpool is kinda crap, but a few pokemon who would love trapping get it (Poliwag, Licki, maybe Slowpoke), so it may get the odd use.
 

Brambane

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YES! I can finally use SubSwarm Spinarak now that it has decent Bug STAB!!! Although, Bug Bite will screw up Swarm if it eats an Oran berry.

lol Power Trick Machop.

Ekans has no room for switcheroo on a Choice set, but i guess it will be mentioned in OO. also, WHY DIDN'T IT GET PAIN SPLIT?!

Now that Totodile has Aqua Jet, Swords Dance is completely viable. Totodile may no longer be ignored in favor of other Water-types.

DD Barboach and Head Smash Aron are going to be fun, and it greatly pleases me that they got great moves, since they were on my first LC team (Scarfboach and RP Aron).

The only Pokemon that i could see using Super Fang is Sandshrew, since it has enough Defense to take physical hits, and being able to chop of 50% of Pokemon like Slowpoke and Bronzor and then finish them with Night Slash is cool.

Also, why did Corphish get DD and Gible didnt?! MUD SHOT IS USELESS ON GIBLE.

I'm going to have fun with NP Smoochum with Fake Out....

Detect Cubone. HECK YEAH.

Weather Ball Bellsprout will be fun. And Cherubi gets it too, which helps feed my gimmicks.

Pain Split Grimer should be fun.





NP Missy=broken. Nothing else.

Numel can now Tank! Too bad Mantyke beats the crap out of it unless it runs HP Electric.
 
although not a moveset addition, it is a HG/SS addition. What about the berry juice? It restors 20 hp, twice as much as oran berry. It may have to be banned, it appears somewhat broken, especieally if bug bite/pluck doesn't eat it.
 
It'll make leftovers 100% useless, as well as helping Pokemon like Bronzor, Munchlax, and anything that can take a hit.

It'll be hard to take some of these threats down (especially Munchlax and Bronzor), but it will make LC a little bit more defensive. It will also help stall teams. Likely anyway, it could not change anything.
 

Seven Deadly Sins

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You think Berry Juice is going to make LC more defensive? I highly disagree. With opponents healing 70-100% of their HP whenever they dip below 50%, it's going to be more and more important to pack power than ever. On top of this, with WAY more healing from Berry Juice than Oran Berry, I get the feeling that setting up is going to more likely and more potent than ever. Basically, if you can survive one hit, you can survive two, so it's going to be of the utmost importance to make sure that your opponent doesn't get the chance to survive that first hit.
 
The only thing I see the berry juice changing is the fact that there would be no such thing as "2HKOes through the berry". This means people could also start using stuff like Choice Band and Specs, and even more DD/SD sweepers (especially with DD Boach and Phish coming) so that they can get the OHKOes they need.

Overall I think it helps defensively to not be able to be 2HKOed by pretty much everything.
 

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