Hidden Type

[canno]

I'm throwing full support towards A+ Electric Mega Lopunny. The Flying neutrality and STAB TPunch are both really good. Other type contenders (imho) are Fire (Burn immunity, neat resists, STAB Fire Punch can hit stuff that don't care about HJK or Return) and Ice (STAB Ice Punch hits a couple of things SE. Not a lot of resists, but no rock weakness for an Ice-type is pretty good. One of the few mons that can actually run Ice-type and not be 100% garbage). Haven't played with these types enough, but if I had to guess a placement it would probably be Fire Lopunny A / A+ and Ice Lopunny B (Ice Lopunny is a lot more niche imho).

Another mon that doesn't get enough love is Water Lando-T. Honestly I've been using it a lot more over Water Gliscor simply because it fits my team better - and imho its the go-to option for more offensive teams over Gliscor. Intimidate is really good. I'd argue for A over A-, but either works fine in the final version imho.

 

[DarkeKnight]

Another mon that doesn't get enough love is Water Lando-T. Honestly I've been using it a lot more over Water Gliscor simply because it fits my team better - and imho its the go-to option for more offensive teams over Gliscor. Intimidate is really good. I'd argue for A over A-, but either works fine in the final version imho.

IIRC, Lando doesn't get any recovery apart from leftovers. That alone puts it below Water Gliscor. Not to mention that Gliscor has a far better defence stat compared to the minor increase in HP and Sp. Def for Lando-T.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

IIRC, Lando doesn't get any recovery apart from leftovers. That alone puts it below Water Gliscor. Not to mention that Gliscor has a far better defence stat compared to the minor increase in HP and Sp. Def for Lando-T.

It's more offensive and has intimidate, being able to run multiple sets without being limited to one item, like Gliscor.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Gliscor needs Water because Steel makes it immune to poison. Lando T doesn't. Because of that, I prefer running something like Steel for Lando T.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 30 SpA / 30 SpD (Ground)
- Smack Down
- Earthquake
- Roost
- Substitute

A set to punish HP Flying mons and Levitate mons. Takes advantage of Aero's great speed tier. Not as versatile as Lando-I, but much quicker and has recovery. Since Ground/Rock moves have good synergy you can count on one of the attacks hitting 99% of things you see in the meta for at least neutral damage. It isn't the greatest thing ever but it can easily punish the switches that Mega-Aero in known to force. Also worth noting that this set is a very reliable bird spam check.

It's a cool set, but Mega Aerodactyl isn't particularly powerful, when I use it I often fail to OHKO mons.

 

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

It's a cool set, but Mega Aerodactyl isn't particularly powerful, when I use it I often fail to OHKO mons.

Yeah it's a tough call between boosting and sub. I prefer sub to let it have more chances to scout and take advantage of switches, but M-Aero does not hit super hard without hone claws.

Edit: Been trying out Hone Claws Water M-Aero and it is looking like the best set M-Aero can run in this meta. Makes it neutral to Aqua Jet+Bullet Punch and finally gives it a decently strong STAB to abuse alongside Tough Claws.

 

[11pikabro]

I used Water Mega-Aero the same way it's used in OU--as a Pokémon that could clean up weakened threats or soften up its partners' checks using an all-attacking moveset--and it did its job pretty well. STAB Aqua Tail is a nice option because, with Tough Claws, the move becomes more powerful yet (thankfully) still more accurate than its STAB Stone Edge. It also has the Speed to pick off many fast threats, like Scarf Diggersby and Gengar.
Nonetheless, Mega-Aero still isn't powerful enough to sweep through unweakened teams, especially if there are any bulky threats left. Plus, the variety of hidden types to worry about made its 4-Moveslot Syndrome very apparent to me, so I was always unsatisfied with whatever set of coverage moves I tried teaching it.

For fun, I slapped Ghost onto a Lead Custap Skarmory set just so that it acted like a Froslass in that it became a combination lead hazard setter and spinblocker. On one hand, it was the same Lead Skarm set that unfortunately did not get to see many failed Rapid Spin attempts (probably because an Excadrill normally doesn't directly switch into a Skarmory). It also made it very susceptible to Hidden Type's common Dark STAB and Gengar's Shadow Ball, which offset its acquisition of Fake Out and Fighting-type immunities (bar Mega Lopunny). On the other hand, I had a Skarmory that full-stopped Chansey, thanks to Taunt, and made an excellent Magnezone lure, which thought it could trap Skarmory with Magnet Pull.

 

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

All right, I've been busy with work and there's way too much discussion to catch up with. Here is a list of what I think A rank is looking like right now:

A+

Fire Altaria(Mega)

Water Gliscor

Ground Gyarados(Mega)

Flying/Grass Heatran

Water Hippowdon

Electric Lopunny(Mega)

Ground Slowbro(Mega)

A

Grass Charizard(Mega Y)

Dark/Electric Charizard(Mega X)

Dark Diggersby

Water/Dragon/Steel Clefable

Fighting Crawdaunt

Electric/Dark Gengar

Ground/Steel Keldeo

Water/Dark Mew

Fighting/Ground Pinsir(Mega)

Steel Rotom Wash

Poison/Dragon Skarmory

Steel Tornadus-Therian

Flying/Ghost Tyranitar


A-

Ghost Chansey

Water Dragalge

Electric Gardevoir(Mega)

Water Landorus-Therian

Dark Mamoswine

Fire Manectric(Mega)

Poison Scrafty

Steel/Grass Thundurus


Some of these mons are XY Hidden Type meta threats that are still very effective in ORAS, most notably Dark Landorus/Water Landorus-T who boast Gravity + Earth Power/Quake to deal with the Flying type shenanigans. Of course, this list is tentative and you can still discuss it while we head into B rank here. I'll try to keep this list updated as last minute discussion goes on, but we should aim to have it mostly finalized by the end of this week.

In the meantime, let's talk about all those "good, not super good though" mons. B rank nominations are ready to roll, and I'm going to kick it off with a classic: Flying Excadrill.

This was a mon widely used in the XY Hidden Type meta as the best spinner you could ask for; it loses its Ground and Fighting weakness, while gaining one weakness to Ice. Scarfed Flying Excadrill has a niche in Hidden Type not only as a spinner, but as a way to revenge kill things like Mega Altaria, Electric Gardevoir, and the odd Steel Levitators like Rotom Wash, Hydreigon, and the Latis. Manaphy is a great partner to this thing, as it often lures out Water Gliscor/Hippowdon.

**EDIT**
Updated 3/20/15
Landorus has ascended to S rank, Talonflame drops to B, Mega Lopunny rises to A+ with its high speed and perfect neutral coverage. Diggersby placed in A.

**EDIT 2**
Implemented Kl4ng's changes found here

Surprised nobody has noticed but this list lacks one of the most potent special wall breakers in the entire meta.
Dark/Ghost Pory-Z should be at least A- IMO.
Between Dark Pulse/Shadow Ball and Tri Attack it gets virtually unresisted coverage. I prefer Dark because the flinches from Dark Pulse are clutch, but both types are viable. Wrecks shit in general with a very respectable Base SpAtt stat and Adaptability boosted Stabs.

 

[DarkeKnight]

What are everyone's thoughts on Steel Zapdos?

It loses its Ice and Rock weakness for a Fire weakness. Gets a handy Toxic immunity. Plus it gets handy Fairy, Psychic, Normal and Dragon resists. Only downside is it's now neutral to Fighting instead of resisting it.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Zapdos is good A- Imo

Klefki w/ Flying also functions as a great Dragonite checks, as it can cripple it with Thunder wave or get damage off with Foul play

 

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

Having used Steel Zapdos extensively in HT I have a few things to say about it.
First off I think it is B+ at best because it has a few problems here.
The first problem it suffers is similar to M-Alt, if you want a defensive build you will have to sacrifice offensive presence and vice versa. It does not have enough coverage options to make it a big threat in this meta to begin with, unless you forego the great defensive steel typing and use an actual Hidden Power move.
The only coverage option is limited to Heat Wave, thus it is set up bait for Ground Gyra and SD Water Gliscor. If you want it to go fast you have to sacrifice offensively/defensively.

Now as far as B+ that might be over selling it, take note I am biased and like Steel Zap.
As a defensive defogger and PP Staller I think it does well. One weakness, usable defenses, and the ability Pressure give it a niche, but still leave it at a disadvantage when the opposing team has stuff like Heatran and Gliscor. It has a couple of tricks up its sleeve with access to stuff like Charge Beam, Agility, and Baton Pass; However it is generally outclassed in the baton passing department. I think that's it, good but not quite great. Should be used to wall shit, stall shit, and remove hazards in this meta IMO.


Klefki is a great screen setter, spiker, and T-Waver. I've tried a HP Dragon set with magnet rise and once screens are up it can be frustratingly difficult to wear down. After a magnet rise it is basically guaranteed three layers of spikes or dual screens.

 

[DarkeKnight]

Having used Steel Zapdos extensively in HT I have a few things to say about it.
First off I think it is B+ at best because it has a few problems here.
The first problem it suffers is similar to M-Alt, if you want a defensive build you will have to sacrifice offensive presence and vice versa. It does not have enough coverage options to make it a big threat in this meta to begin with, unless you forego the great defensive steel typing and use an actual Hidden Power move.
The only coverage option is limited to Heat Wave, thus it is set up bait for Ground Gyra and SD Water Gliscor. If you want it to go fast you have to sacrifice offensively/defensively.

Now as far as B+ that might be over selling it, take note I am biased and like Steel Zap.
As a defensive defogger and PP Staller I think it does well. One weakness, usable defenses, and the ability Pressure give it a niche, but still leave it at a disadvantage when the opposing team has stuff like Heatran and Gliscor. It has a couple of tricks up its sleeve with access to stuff like Charge Beam, Agility, and Baton Pass; However it is generally outclassed in the baton passing department. I think that's it, good but not quite great. Should be used to wall shit, stall shit, and remove hazards in this meta IMO.

I think the problem is how you're using Zapdos. Your last point is exactly how I feel it should be used. A moveset of Roost/Defog/Discharge/Heat Wave is pretty good. Discharge has a 30% chance of paralyzing which is pretty useful. Not to mention Flying Heatran is killed by Discharge. And if you really don't like using Heat Wave, you could replace it with U-Turn for momentum or Extrasensory for neutral damage to Gyara/Gliscor. As for EVs, while I've personally used 252 HP/252 Sp. Atk in other metas, you could try 252 HP/252 Def. And if you really, really dislike set up sweepers, you could use Roar. It also gets Toxic. Zapdos has a lot of utility to be honest.

To give you an example of it used defensively:

+6 252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 339-399 (88.2 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+5 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 307-362 (79.9 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 234-276 (60.9 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 294-348 (76.5 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Looking at these calcs, I'm actually thinking that running Roar over Heat Wave might work out.

 

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

I think the problem is how you're using Zapdos. Your last point is exactly how I feel it should be used. A moveset of Roost/Defog/Discharge/Heat Wave is pretty good. Discharge has a 30% chance of paralyzing which is pretty useful. Not to mention Flying Heatran is killed by Discharge. And if you really don't like using Heat Wave, you could replace it with U-Turn for momentum or Extrasensory for neutral damage to Gyara/Gliscor. As for EVs, while I've personally used 252 HP/252 Sp. Atk in other metas, you could try 252 HP/252 Def. And if you really, really dislike set up sweepers, you could use Roar. It also gets Toxic. Zapdos has a lot of utility to be honest.

To give you an example of it used defensively:

+6 252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 339-399 (88.2 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+5 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 307-362 (79.9 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 234-276 (60.9 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 294-348 (76.5 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Looking at these calcs, I'm actually thinking that running Roar over Heat Wave might work out.

I'm not saying it isn't good but it is outclassed by Skarm as a physical wall, which is shitty since that is Zapdos' greatest niche here. It would probably make a decent special wall too, but not one that isn't outclassed by Chansey. I said B+ at most because it is basically outclassed at everything it can do well. Steel Zapdos really does have some great qualities. Immune to Toxic and T-Wave, good stats overall, access to pivot moves, good utility. Don't take it the wrong way, it is just simply outclassed. I think the best set to run would be mixed wall. It makes an excellent rain dancer too.

 

[Ghoul King]

Honestly Zapdos has the advantage of being unpredictable and flexible over both of those. Certainly, a Physically Defensive Steel Zapdos is drawing comparisons to Electric Skarmory (Defog, Roost, force-switching move), but even then it has more Speed (Which can be crucial in getting off Roosts before the enemy kills you), considerably better Special bulk between the 20 extra Special Defense and 25 extra HP, access to both U-Turn and Volt Switch, also Baton Pass which can be used in place of U-Turn and Volt Switch for switch advantage or combined with something like Agility to actually pass boosts off, and just generally has lots of weird utility.

Conversely, it's not nearly as passive as Chansey, which can be quite nice, and its excellent pool of immunities makes it a lot easier to switch in, even starting from the assumption of Ghost Chansey. (It's not like Normal or Ghost are popular offensive types in Hidden Type anyway)

I don't think Zapdos is actually outclassed by Skarmory and Chansey, and in fact I saw Steel Zapdos fairly frequently in the original Hidden Type ladder. I think it lost popularity in part because Magnezone became popular for trapping everything ever (I've seen Magnezone a lot less on this ladder, probably in no small part because it's depressingly common for the things it traps to be able to win a slugging match with it), but really it's a plenty solid choice, and it could absolutely handle non-Hidden Power Fire Magnezone fairly reliably with several viable sets.

A- seems more accurate to me, honestly. It's not so much that Steel Zapdos is flawed as that Skarmory and Chansey are easy choices -people don't necessarily put a lot of thought into whether they really fit their team or not. (Which to be fair is to a certain extent because they don't have to)

 

[Klang]

I can't think of any compelling reason to use Steel Zapdos over Steel Togekiss.

Stat-wise, Togekiss' 85/95/115 bulk is better than to Zapdos' 90/85/90 bulk, letting it take physical hits slightly better and special hits far better. This is traded for speed (base 80 against base 100, specifically), but Zapdos' speed arguably isn't even that beneficial considering if it roosts on any earthquake it will pretty much die on the spot. Their special attack stats are almost equal.

Type-wise, Fairy/Steel/Flying is quite a bit better than Electric/Steel/Flying, as the former's granted resistances to Fighting and Dark allow it to laugh at some of the tier's most dangerous sweepers, such as Fighting or Ground Mega Pinsir and Poison Scrafty. Zapdos on the other hand can't exactly claim much with its Electric neutrality, seeing as Lopunny's neutral HJK is still hitting it almost as hard as a super effective ThunderPunch, Taunt/Will-O-Wisp/Calm Mind Mega Gardevoir (so, every Mega Gardevoir) still gets by it even with max special defense, and Manectric still fries it. I guess if you're specially defensive it allows you to beat Gengar, but with rocks up you have to pretty much be at full health to do that anyway, and taunt mindgames still play a role. Zapdos' resistance to Steel isn't that major either considering that while it allows you to take hits from Dragonite better you can't exactly do anything back to it except pray for a heat wave burn if you lack Thunder Wave, and Bisharp can hit it harder than Togekiss with Knock Off anyway.

Movepool and ability wise, Togekiss just flat out decimates Zapdos. Pressure is nice but Serene Grace is a lot better, and Togekiss gets a movepool that allows it to do just about whatever it wants, the only notable thing Zapdos having over it being Volt Switch. Defog with paraflinch is the most popular option, but just just a simple Roost/Defog/Air Slash/Flamethrower set works fine as well. Flamethrower deserves a special mention here because its newfound Steel typing allows it to come in on most physical attackers and fish for burns with the 1 in 5 burning chance Serene Grace brings to the table.

Basically unless you really need a Gengar check or momentum for some reason Togekiss just stands a lot better.

 

[Red Cat]

Zapdos belongs somewhere in the B ranks. 90 / 85 / 90 defenses are disappointing for a defensive threat in this meta. Zapdos has a decent special attack, but its only offensive options are Electric STAB and Heat Wave, and Zapdos had no reliable way to boost its special attack. Zapdos is basically an average defensive threat with average offensive presence. It doesn't do anything really well.

Looking though the viability rankings, it doesn't really stop much. With the Steel typing, it actually loses to some threats it can beat in OU. Fighting Mega Pinsir can blow through Zapdos with CC and Keldeo can 2HKO specially defensive Zapdos with Secret Sword (and if Zapdos is physically defensive, then it can be 2HKOed by Scald or Hydro Pump). Zapdos cannot do anything to Landorus except chip away with Heat Wave, and Landorus can use Gravity and I'm pretty sure you don't want to keep Zapdos in on that Earth Power. As mentioned before, it cannot do anything to Dragonite or Mega Altaria except phaze them out. I could go on and on, but really all Zapdos does well at is PP stall some defensive threats with Pressure.

 

[Ghoul King]

Zapdos gets Signal Beam, Ancient Power, and Extrasensory. Please don't claim it only gets Electric+Heat Wave. Even if you just mean "viably useful", Extrasensory is still relevant and even Signal Beam has niche use against Ground Mega Gyarados, Grass Manaphy, etc.

0 SpA Zapdos Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (Poison) Landorus: 170-200 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'm also not seeing how Steel Togekiss functions as a direct replacement. It has an entirely different offense (Note that Steel Togekiss has essentially nothing it can do to Flying Heatran -not so for Steel Zapdos, which can even Volt Switch out on it to avoid taking a super effective hit, Fire weakness or no), the lack of Paralysis immunity is a legitimate disadvantage (Many teams like to pass out Paralysis in part as a way to severely impede Dragonite and Manaphy), it's still vulnerable to Fire and is also vulnerable to Electric (Which is not just used by Mega Lopunny -it's also used by Mega Gardevoir, Rotom, and the already mentioned Gengar, not to mention some Dragonite sets), and the fact is that Zapdos' Speed advantage will rarely make it vulnerable to a Ground attack via Roost where Togekiss would be outsped and thus safe. (Hippowdon is outsped by both of them, Landorus outspeeds both of them...)

The fact that Steel Togekiss is neutral to Steel where Zapdos is doubly resistant also matters when considering Mega Metagross, Steel Dragonite (Though this has been acknowledged), Ferrothorn (Which, again, can Thunder Wave Togekiss and not Zapdos), some Magnezone, Jirachi, Bisharp, Excadrill, and numerous other Pokemon that want a reliable answer to the myriad, important Fairies of the tier. Zapdos is in fact a good partner to Fairies in general. Togekiss will just reinforce a Fairy-carrying team's problems.

Zapdos on the other hand can't exactly claim much with its Electric neutrality, seeing as Lopunny's neutral HJK is still hitting it almost as hard as a super effective ThunderPunch, Taunt/Will-O-Wisp/Calm Mind Mega Gardevoir (so, every Mega Gardevoir) still gets by it even with max special defense, and Manectric still fries it.

I don't run Calm Mind on Mega Gardevoir. Thunderbolt STAB is kind of the biggest point to Electric on Mega Gardevoir.

 

[Klang]

Zapdos gets Signal Beam, Ancient Power, and Extrasensory. Please don't claim it only gets Electric+Heat Wave. Even if you just mean "viably useful", Extrasensory is still relevant and even Signal Beam has niche use against Ground Mega Gyarados, Grass Manaphy, etc.

I did not claim that. My point here is Togekiss gets everything Zapdos does and more (Also, these moves are better on Togekiss since their secondary effects are considerably buffed)

I don't run Calm Mind on Mega Gardevoir. Thunderbolt STAB is kind of the biggest point to Electric on Mega Gardevoir.

I may have phrased that badly, but what I meant is any Mega Gardevoir that is carrying one of: Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, or Calm Mind will be able to beat Zapdos if it switches in. Unless you're running focus blast for some reason which is bad since Psychic/Fairy/Electric gives it all the coverage it needs, you are very likely running one of these moves. This leaves the only electric coverage Pokemon that I didn't cover in my post you having mentioned being Rotom, which Zapdos can't take on either since it just gets crippled by a burn and can't do anything back. Thunderpunch Dragonite is also rather awful and 125% of the usual damage on Togekiss won't really bother it (In fact, Dragonite is better off going for Iron Head trying to get a flinch). Hence, strangely enough, Zapdos is on no better footing against pretty much all of the tier's electric types bar a select few.

The thunder wave issue isn't that big of a deal either. I've personally seen burn a lot more on high ladder than paralysis, and Togekiss doesn't necessarily mind the paralysis that much either. Neither Togekiss or Zapdos are frequently switching in on things with Thunder Wave anyway.

The fact that Steel Togekiss is neutral to Steel where Zapdos is doubly resistant also matters when considering Mega Metagross, Steel Dragonite (Though this has been acknowledged), Ferrothorn (Which, again, can Thunder Wave Togekiss and not Zapdos), some Magnezone, Jirachi, Bisharp, Excadrill, and numerous other Pokemon that want a reliable answer to the myriad, important Fairies of the tier. Zapdos is in fact a good partner to Fairies in general. Togekiss will just reinforce a Fairy-carrying team's problems.

I've already addressed that while Zapdos can take Dragonite's Iron Head it can't do anything back but Thunder Wave, which Togekiss is perfectly capable of doing as well. I've also pointed out that Bisharp doesn't really care that you resist Iron Head since Knock Off does more damage. Ferrothorn isn't really an argument at all for the steel neutrality since Gyro Ball will be doing little anyway, but rather an extension of the Thunder Wave point which is valid. Mega Metagross can still break Zapdos if it has Hammer Arm, STAB or not, since once its speed is lower Zapdos will be unable to roost.

The claim that Zapdos can take on steel types while Togekiss can not is only partially true, because Togekiss and Zapdos are on equal footing against what are arguably the 2 most common steel types in the tier (Dragonite and Bisharp) anyway, so Zapdos can only really claim to take on some of the less relevant steel types here (In fact the only others I've seen on this list are Excadrill a few times and Magnezone once).

A thunder wave immunity, access to volt switch and the ability to take on some steel types compared to what Togekiss has to offer is rather insignificant. Keep in mind that I gave Zapdos the benefit of the doubt in these examples by giving it the possibility of running both physically and specially defensive spreads here when it suited it and kept Togekiss restrained to the physically defensive spread.

 

[Ghoul King]

I didn't claim Zapdos can take on Steel types and Togekiss cannot -my point was that Zapdos' double resistance is actually very relevant, making it easier to switch in on Pokemon that use Steel moves. Metagross is another Pokemon that Steel Togekiss doesn't like facing while Steel Zapdos is not really concerned by it, and even against Dragonite just the ability to switch in on an Iron Head, taking minimal damage, can allow Zapdos to get in that Thunder Wave, even through Steel Rock and/or with prior damage. Then, unlike Togekiss, it can Volt Switch (Or U-Turn) out to break Multiscale and get a real threat to Dragonite in, where Togekiss basically has to either manually switch out or be a Nasty Plot set intent on murdering Dragonite itself, which is moving away from the defensive utility we're discussing here.

A stronger point is that Steel is an uncommon coverage move -there are Pokemon that get Iron Head or Flash Cannon without being natively Steel typed, but not too many of them and they often have better things to be doing with their movepool, (eg Tyranitar) or it's ill-suited to their statline/the rest of their movepool (Raikou gets Iron Head, huzzah), or they're just plain meh Pokemon. (Chesnaught, Rhyperior...) As such the Steel coverage issue is focused more on actual Steel types than you might think.

View attachment 39135
I did not claim that. My point here is Togekiss gets everything Zapdos does and more (Also, these moves are better on Togekiss since their secondary effects are considerably buffed)

I think I was thinking of prior claims from other people. Regardless, my point was that Zapdos isn't as limited as people present it as being, which has been one of the arguments for why it's not so great.

The thunder wave issue isn't that big of a deal either. I've personally seen burn a lot more on high ladder than paralysis, and Togekiss doesn't necessarily mind the paralysis that much either. Neither Togekiss or Zapdos are frequently switching in on things with Thunder Wave anyway.

What, they aren't switching in on a Lati? Nor Serperior? (Glare) Chansey? (Yes I realize Togekiss and Zapdos are both bad at hurting Chansey, but they're both good Defoggers and switching in on Chansey can be a free opportunity to clear hazards -not so free for Togekiss if it switches into a Thunder Wave) Klefki? Azelf? Celebi? Porygon2/-Z?

Really, a ludicrous number of things get Thunder Wave and just usually don't run it, including the likes of Gyarados (??), Honchkrow, Gardevoir, Clefable...

... and any variant of Togekiss that's hoping to fish for flinches hates being Paralyzed and in general it creates the risk that you'll become Fully Paralyzed one too many times and die to something that you should've Roosted right through.

I'm also talking Paralysis in general, not just Thunder Wave in specific -paraflinchax Jirachi, for instance, which can tear down Togekiss more reliably than it can tear down Zapdos.

 

[wes.falcon]

Machamp with Fighting/Rock?

No Guard = Stone Edge STAB + Dynamic Punch STAB is honestly awesome, and with an Assault Vest, sure, he's not OVERLY bulky but he's not a dead weight.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

I didn't claim Zapdos can take on Steel types and Togekiss cannot -my point was that Zapdos' double resistance is actually very relevant, making it easier to switch in on Pokemon that use Steel moves. Metagross is another Pokemon that Steel Togekiss doesn't like facing while Steel Zapdos is not really concerned by it, and even against Dragonite just the ability to switch in on an Iron Head, taking minimal damage, can allow Zapdos to get in that Thunder Wave, even through Steel Rock and/or with prior damage. Then, unlike Togekiss, it can Volt Switch (Or U-Turn) out to break Multiscale and get a real threat to Dragonite in, where Togekiss basically has to either manually switch out or be a Nasty Plot set intent on murdering Dragonite itself, which is moving away from the defensive utility we're discussing here.

A stronger point is that Steel is an uncommon coverage move -there are Pokemon that get Iron Head or Flash Cannon without being natively Steel typed, but not too many of them and they often have better things to be doing with their movepool, (eg Tyranitar) or it's ill-suited to their statline/the rest of their movepool (Raikou gets Iron Head, huzzah), or they're just plain meh Pokemon. (Chesnaught, Rhyperior...) As such the Steel coverage issue is focused more on actual Steel types than you might think.



I think I was thinking of prior claims from other people. Regardless, my point was that Zapdos isn't as limited as people present it as being, which has been one of the arguments for why it's not so great.



What, they aren't switching in on a Lati? Nor Serperior? (Glare) Chansey? (Yes I realize Togekiss and Zapdos are both bad at hurting Chansey, but they're both good Defoggers and switching in on Chansey can be a free opportunity to clear hazards -not so free for Togekiss if it switches into a Thunder Wave) Klefki? Azelf? Celebi? Porygon2/-Z?

Really, a ludicrous number of things get Thunder Wave and just usually don't run it, including the likes of Gyarados (??), Honchkrow, Gardevoir, Clefable...

... and any variant of Togekiss that's hoping to fish for flinches hates being Paralyzed and in general it creates the risk that you'll become Fully Paralyzed one too many times and die to something that you should've Roosted right through.

I'm also talking Paralysis in general, not just Thunder Wave in specific -paraflinchax Jirachi, for instance, which can tear down Togekiss more reliably than it can tear down Zapdos.

Just want to say that Togekiss gets Heal Bell, so it can offer good team support and cure its own status, so it really doesn't care too much about paralysis.

 

[Kittttten]

Hmm.. HP Steel Kingdra w/o weaknesses

EDIT: nvm, weak to ground, fighting, unless water resists fighting

Machamp with Fighting/Rock?

No Guard = Stone Edge STAB + Dynamic Punch STAB is honestly awesome, and with an Assault Vest, sure, he's not OVERLY bulky but he's not a dead weight.

And, with sandstorm support he becomes impossible to kill specially..

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Can I suggest unban Greninja and see what it can do? I think it won't destroy things too much in here, unlike in OU. Fairies (its usual counters before it gets Gunk Shot) now usually carry Steel types, and I don't think Low Kick will do anything against Clefable or Togekiss, even if they carry Steel type. Sure, it got lots of coverage, but I don't think it will be too much for the tier, for me at least.

 

[wes.falcon]

Can I suggest unban Greninja and see what it can do? I think it won't destroy things too much in here, unlike in OU. Fairies (its usual counters before it gets Gunk Shot) now usually carry Steel types, and I don't think Low Kick will do anything against Clefable or Togekiss, even if they carry Steel type. Sure, it got lots of coverage, but I don't think it will be too much for the tier, for me at least.

Yeah, Greninja basically doesn't change this meta considering Protean would just cancel out the Hidden Type anyway

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Hmm.. HP Steel Kingdra w/o weaknesses

EDIT: nvm, weak to ground, fighting, unless water resists fighting



And, with sandstorm support he becomes impossible to kill specially..

Closest things to no weaknesses are HP Dark Weezing/Gengar--they are weak to Ground but they have Levitate, so only Earth Power Kyu-B/EQ Excadrill with Teravolt/Mold Breaker respectively can hit them for SE damage.