Highest Stat Meta

[Gimlaf]

I've played a bit with a HP Stall team -which is pretty similar to Kl4ng's team posted here-, and I suppose Chansey/Alomomola/Amoonguss forms a decent stallcore for HP teams. With great bulk on the opposite sites, Chansey can take special attacks while Mola deals with physical ones. Meanwhile Amoonguss resists all things the other two are weak to, namely Grass, Electric, and Fighting. On top of that, Wish and Regenerator makes these three Mons even harder to break.
Apart from Wish passing and healing status with Heal Bell, this core can also cripple opponents with Toxic, Scald burns, Spore, and even Knock Off, since Alomomola learns that.

Apart from that, HP has some other neat options:
Unaware users as in Quagsire or Clefable help keeping set-up sweepers in check, who would otherwise just set themselves up in the passiveness of the aforementioned core. (you could actually run Clear Smog on Amoonguss to keep stat boosters at bay, although I wouldn't rely solely on that)
Mew obviously has its expansive Movepool, and is one of the few hazard clearers HP teams can get. The other Mons mentioned which can Defog are Mandibuzz (most probably viable) and Skuntank (eh...)
Diggers and/or Azumarill can function with that core as well if you don't want to run full stall, being used as mid-lategame sweepers to finish off the crippled opposition, or simply to revenge-kill stuff.

CurseTalk Snorlax and CM Clefable might work as win conditions on HP teams, although I tested neither of them, so I can't really say.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

It does feel like HP would be surperior for Bulky offence with Azumarill and whatnot. You can't really create a bulky offence team where you center it around one defensive typing, like physical or special. If you have HP you can create bulky offence. All in all I think HP would some of the better ones, you sorta get anything you'd want. Defog, Physical attackers, Special attackers, Stealth rock and recovery!

 

[Snaquaza]

It does feel like HP would be surperior for Bulky offence with Azumarill and whatnot. You can't really create a bulky offence team where you center it around one defensive typing, like physical or special. If you have HP you can create bulky offence. All in all I think HP would some of the better ones, you sorta get anything you'd want. Defog, Physical attackers, Special attackers, Stealth rock and recovery!

Honestly, while HP is a fairly balanced type, most Pokemon which excel in HP are quite stally and otherwise you have a limited selection. Of the Pokemon listed in the second post, you have these. I've bolded the ones that can be used for offensive goals.

Mons

- Azumarill
- Mandibuzz
- Quagsire
- Vaporeon
- Diggersby
- Manaphy
- Wobbuffet
- Blissey
- Celebi
- Entei
- Jirachi
- Mew
- Shaymin
- Snorlax
- Victini
- Alomomola
- Amoonguss
- Aromatisse
- Exploud
- Gastrodon
- Skuntank

Even though this may look like enough, most of them are either the pixies, which all stats get access to, or are quite slow. While you have some impressive wallbreakers with EXploud and Diggersby, the only real Pokemon you could use as sweeper is Azumarill, which isn't really reliable. Azumarill also quite overlaps with Manaphy. Snorlax is more like a wincondition for balance or semistall and Entei, while good, can't be used as a sweeper easily either. Finally, even of the pixels, only few are actually inherently offensive (Manaphy), the others just can take an offensive role, but won't excel at it.

Meanwhile, Pokemon like Aromatisse, Alomomola, Vaporeon, Mandibuzz, Chansey, Quagsire, Celebi and Mew are great defensively, so you can easily build up a sturdy team. You get cleric support, special walls, physical walls, hazards, defog and even Unaware! This may be the best type for a (standard) stall team.

Otherwise I feel like Attack and Special Attack are the best types. A lot of Pokemon have either of these two as their highest stat, so they have a lot of variety and both get access to good physical / special Pokemon, so they can balance their type. Additionally, they usually can easily find Pokemon like Azelf or Latios to support the team. Speed is in my opinion, often too weak, while the defenses just dont 'get enough options. While they are viable, they aren't as easy to use.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Honestly, while HP is a fairly balanced type, most Pokemon which excel in HP are quite stally and otherwise you have a limited selection. Of the Pokemon listed in the second post, you have these. I've bolded the ones that can be used for offensive goals.

Mons

- Azumarill
- Mandibuzz
- Quagsire
- Vaporeon
- Diggersby
- Manaphy
- Wobbuffet
- Blissey
- Celebi
- Entei
- Jirachi
- Mew
- Shaymin
- Snorlax
- Victini
- Alomomola
- Amoonguss
- Aromatisse
- Exploud
- Gastrodon
- Skuntank

Even though this may look like enough, most of them are either the pixies, which all stats get access to, or are quite slow. While you have some impressive wallbreakers with EXploud and Diggersby, the only real Pokemon you could use as sweeper is Azumarill, which isn't really reliable. Azumarill also quite overlaps with Manaphy. Snorlax is more like a wincondition for balance or semistall and Entei, while good, can't be used as a sweeper easily either. Finally, even of the pixels, only few are actually inherently offensive (Manaphy), the others just can take an offensive role, but won't excel at it.

Meanwhile, Pokemon like Aromatisse, Alomomola, Vaporeon, Mandibuzz, Chansey, Quagsire, Celebi and Mew are great defensively, so you can easily build up a sturdy team. You get cleric support, special walls, physical walls, hazards, defog and even Unaware! This may be the best type for a (standard) stall team.

Otherwise I feel like Attack and Special Attack are the best types. A lot of Pokemon have either of these two as their highest stat, so they have a lot of variety and both get access to good physical / special Pokemon, so they can balance their type. Additionally, they usually can easily find Pokemon like Azelf or Latios to support the team. Speed is in my opinion, often too weak, while the defenses just dont 'get enough options. While they are viable, they aren't as easy to use.

Well the problem I have with Sp.tk and Atk is that if you run Special attack a large portion of your team will seriously struggle with Chansey, and the opposite will struggle with Skarmory, Ferrothorn and Alomomolomomon. You're sorta limiting yourself, something that picking speed and hp wont do :]

 

[Snaquaza]

Well the problem I have with Sp.tk and Atk is that if you run Special attack a large portion of your team will seriously struggle with Chansey, and the opposite will struggle with Skarmory, Ferrothorn and Alomomolomomon. You're sorta limiting yourself, something that picking speed and hp wont do :]

Thing is, Attack gets access to Landorus (not banned right now, metagame was made before it was banned and I want to review it before banning it, since it doesn't seem like OP, more like a big help) and can use a variety of mixed attackers. Meanwhile Special Attack has access to the great Mega Charizard X to be extremely threatening physically, in addition to having Lucario as a physical Pokemon. This means they can maneuver to the other side quite easily, especially when you can use the pixies / glalie mega as well.

Just from taking some random Pokemon, which means I haven't tested it yet, this seems like a decent team already: Azelf, Victini, Lucario, Keldeo, Thundurus, Gardevoir (Mega). And besides this, there are many other possible combinations as I haven't even used Pokemon like Jirachi, Manaphy or Charizard. Even though there aren't any Pokemon that can block Defog well, Thundurus, Tornadus and Empoleon can use a physical set with Defiant (although I wouldn't recommend it with Empoleon).

 

[DoW]

Since the arrival of groupchats (and with it, the ability to easily make tournaments for this meta), we're seeing quite a few people playing this. The biggest problem right now, though, is the banlist, namely that we're still using the old XY banlist. We often have to try to explain (and often fail to explain) why these things aren't banned, and I think it would be good to go through each of the unbans and at least determine if they should be unbanned. Mega maw causes huge problems for a number of teams, while Lando-i is difficult to deal with as well, for example. The two put together and with the support of the ttar/exca sand core can roll through teams with ease.
Greninja, too, can be pretty difficult to beat and can steamroll through many teams due to its high speed and power. Its checks are often quickly worn down, while it outspeeds loads of things like Torn-t or Scarf Magnezone.

Because of this, I'd recommend a suspect test of sorts for Mawilite, Landorus-i and Greninja. Other pokemon, such as Aegislash and Deo-S, might potentially need to be dealt with in the future, however I think these are the most pressing issues.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

I suggest we treat this meta like Monotype. I mean, banning one poke would nerf the "stats". Yeah, Landorus I is banned in OU, but why not Monotype? Because it's like, the only special attacker Ground has (Nidoking is not an adequate replacement).

I'm okay for Mawilite ban, but for Greninja and Landorus, I have a problem. Landorus I is like the only Special Attacker in "Attack" while Greninja doesn't get many good mons. It would be problematic for "Speed" if we nerf it further.

I know some of you might disagree with me about above bans. I'm just suggesting if we treat this meta same as monotype meta.

Edit: I'm not saying I disagree suspecting those pokes, btw. I just want people to consider the way we treat metas like this.

Btw Stall is pretty unviable here because every team can use Manaphy.

 

[thesecondbest]

I agree this needs monotype approach, but greninja's needs to go... Deo-d seems pretty unviable so it can stay for sure and lando should only be banned if atk is op.

 

[tom771]

Right now I don't think Greninja is too much of a problem because of its frailty. it is easily beaten by Mawile if scald doesn't burn and weakness policy Aegislash lives dark pulse if its in shield forme and kills with flash cannon and shadow sneak (if its sashed).

Calcs:
252 SpA Greninja Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 117-138 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 158-188 (48.7 - 58%) -- 97.3% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja (Pure dark type): 423-498 (147.9 - 174.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja (Pure water type): 385-454 (134.6 - 158.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Edit: I just played against Greninja and yea probably should ban it... It destroys without setup and Protean gives it the advantage of mind games.

 

[Snaquaza]

Greninja Suspect

Greninja is getting suspected. It's probably the best and most threatening Pokemon in the format right now. Although it's only usable on Speed teams, it breaks them. Greninja is able to destroy many teams just by its strong coverage, as it can be any type it wants to be. Additionally, for all teams but Speed its even harder to outspeed than OU as they have few or no Pokemon available that can outspeed Greninja naturally. Although various Pokemon can survive an attack, they still have to predict the type Greninja will be, and can also be worn down with hazards and such, making it a terror to face.

I don't really have anything else to say about it, as it's fairly straightforward. You can discuss it in this thread, but a preliminary council will vote on the suspect (Note, the council will probably shift each suspect, besides the leaders). The vote will be September 30 for if we win OMotM, so it can be decided before that happens. You can earn the right of being able to vote by being active in the room and showing your metagame knowledge, whether that is in tours, private battles or just in the chat.

Voters list:
- Snaquaza (Leader)
- Articuno I (Leader)
- tom771
- AllJokesAside
- Chopin Alkaninoff
- kizzo212

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Aslong as you're not facing speed yourself you're honestly going to have such a hard time outspeeding this thing, couple that with it's great power and unpredictability this thing is just too good. Ban.

 

[tom771]

Greninja Suspect

Greninja is getting suspected. It's probably the best and most threatening Pokemon in the format right now. Although it's only usable on Speed teams, it breaks them. Greninja is able to destroy many teams just by its strong coverage, as it can be any type it wants to be. Additionally, for all teams but Speed its even harder to outspeed than OU as they have few or no Pokemon available that can outspeed Greninja naturally. Although various Pokemon can survive an attack, they still have to predict the type Greninja will be, and can also be worn down with hazards and such, making it a terror to face.

I don't really have anything else to say about it, as it's fairly straightforward. You can discuss it in this thread, but a preliminary council will vote on the suspect (Note, the council will probably shift each suspect, besides the leaders). The vote will be September 30 for if we win OMotM, so it can be decided before that happens. You can earn the right of being able to vote by being active in the room and showing your metagame knowledge, whether that is in tours, private battles or just in the chat.

Voters list:
- Snaquaza (Leader)
- Articuno I (Leader)
- tom771
- AllJokesAside
- Chopin Alkaninoff
- kizzo212

Greninja is the best pokemon in the format right now. It restricts team building and doesn't need to set up at all. Though it is frail it is only outsped by 2 mons that aren't from speed (Mega Zam and Mega Manectric) and it can usually live a hit from something because of protean changing types and what not. Ban

 

[thesecondbest]

I'm not a voter but ban, it can 6-0 Atk and SPtk except for their scarfer. Stupid as hell.

 

[kizzo212]

Cant really see the meta working to make threats such as greninja and mawile less OP than they were originally in OU, so I would agree with a ban.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Ban. The fact that it's even harder to outspeed this thing because most pokes with higher Speed (bar Mega Zam and weather sweepers) are all in "Speed" means it's even harder to revenge this thing. Also, teambuilding here is also more restricted, so finding checks would be harder.

 

[DoW]

While there's certainly something to be worried about in terms of Speed not having that many good options, I don't think getting rid of Greninja will instantly make the stat useless. Greninja ploughs through a huge number of things on its own and needs offensive checks to really be beaten, stopping defensive teams from being able to do well. Without Greninja, Speed still has access to a number of strong attackers, such as Talonflame, Serperior, Deoxys-Speed and Mega Lopunny. While the stat may struggle somewhat without Greninja, I don't think they'll be completely unable to do well, and banning Greninja will allow a whole load of teams to do well.

Because of that, I'm voting ban.

 

[Snaquaza]

Well, it's not the 30th, but I think it is clear anyway. Greninja has been banned. Articuno I had a good reasoning for it, if you want to know why it has been banned.

While there's certainly something to be worried about in terms of Speed not having that many good options, I don't think getting rid of Greninja will instantly make the stat useless. Greninja ploughs through a huge number of things on its own and needs offensive checks to really be beaten, stopping defensive teams from being able to do well. Without Greninja, Speed still has access to a number of strong attackers, such as Talonflame, Serperior, Deoxys-Speed and Mega Lopunny. While the stat may struggle somewhat without Greninja, I don't think they'll be completely unable to do well, and banning Greninja will allow a whole load of teams to do well.

 

[Arcticblast]

boy oh boy am I glad a good OM finally won OMotM, now I don't have to learn any shitass new mechanics

I built an Attack team pretty quickly and damn this thing is fun

Attack bulky offense

Mawile @ Mawilite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Sucker Punch
- Substitute
- Focus Punch

Landorus (Landorus-Therian) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- U-turn

Kyurem-Black @ Leftovers
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 52 HP / 44 Atk / 252 SpA / 160 Spe
Mild Nature
- Substitute
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Bolt
- Earth Power

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
Calm Nature
- Defog
- Soft-Boiled
- Taunt
- Psychic

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Bounce
- Earthquake

Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Tail
- Stealth Rock
- Endure

Mega Mawile was what enticed me to build the team, and remembering the good old days of SubPunch Mega Mawile I went for that. I added Landorus-T (bulky at the time) to help take hits for it, and mixed Sub Kyurem-B to also be bulky and abuse bulky waters for the two. Mew was my next choice for Defog access, and Gyarados followed as a Fire/Water resist and a win condition with Dragon Dance. Garchomp was the final addition, taking Lando-T's place as a bulky SR setter (I gave Lando-T Scarf instead). Mawile and Kyurem-B abuse bulkier teams, while Gyarados and Lando-T make life difficult for offense (fuck Scarfers imo). Mew helps Kyurem-B and Mawile fuck up stall.

idk it's super fun

 

[Funbot28]

Here are my thoughts of some potential Tier ☆☆☆☆☆ mons:

Attack:

: Beast with Sand up. Can easily sweep Speed, Sp.Atk and other Attack teams pretty easily.

: Best Special Attacker on Atk. LO Sheer Force destroys Def and Spd mons that are slower (albeit not many)

: Believe Mega Scizor is the best momentum pivot mon for Atk. Also is great for sweeping Sp.Atk teams with SD and Bullet Punch.

: Great mon in breaking down Def walls like Hippowdon and Gliscor. Tail Glow/Calm Mind + Rain Dance also let's Atk destroy stall teams.

Special Attack:

: Keldeo is amazing on Sp.Atk. Water/Fighting is great, and it has decent 108 Speed that let's it handle def teams. CM is also good, but kinda outclassed by other Sp.Atk mons.

: Best Atk mon on Sp.Atk. Let's it destroy Sp.Def teams, that otherwise Sp.Atk would have a problem with. It also has great Fire/Dragon typing as well, and with team support, DD can sweep amazingly.

: Clef is Clef, which means it can do practically anything you want. SR setter, CM sweeper, Unaware wall. Defenitely Sp.Atk's premier walls.

: Hoopa-U is a monster on Sp.Atk. 160 Atk is the highest Attack of all the availible mons, coupled with nice offensive Dark/Psychic typing. Nothing likes switching in to Hoopa-U.

Speed:

: Deoxys-S is really good on Speed. It's a nice hazard lead, but can also run the AoA set with a Life Orb, becoming Spd's best revenge killer.

: Probable best mega to run on Spd. mega Medicham is a heavy hitter with Pure Power. Destroys balanced Sp.Def teams and is good vs Atk teams. Really good mon on Spd, especially since Greninja got banned.

: Sorry, Talonflame is Spd's best revenge killer. Can either be SD, Bulk Up WoW, CB Talonflame is super scary to face. Attack and Special Attack teams really struggle to find switch ins to this thing.

Haven't played Def of Sp.Def yet to get opinions, will comment later...

 

[tom771]

Here are my thoughts of some potential Tier ☆☆☆☆☆ mons:

Attack:

: Beast with Sand up. Can easily sweep Speed, Sp.Atk and other Attack teams pretty easily.

: Best Special Attacker on Atk. LO Sheer Force destroys Def and Spd mons that are slower (albeit not many)

: Believe Mega Scizor is the best momentum pivot mon for Atk. Also is great for sweeping Sp.Atk teams with SD and Bullet Punch.

: Great mon in breaking down Def walls like Hippowdon and Gliscor. Tail Glow/Calm Mind + Rain Dance also let's Atk destroy stall teams.

Special Attack:

: Keldeo is amazing on Sp.Atk. Water/Fighting is great, and it has decent 108 Speed that let's it handle def teams. CM is also good, but kinda outclassed by other Sp.Atk mons.

: Best Atk mon on Sp.Atk. Let's it destroy Sp.Def teams, that otherwise Sp.Atk would have a problem with. It also has great Fire/Dragon typing as well, and with team support, DD can sweep amazingly.

: Clef is Clef, which means it can do practically anything you want. SR setter, CM sweeper, Unaware wall. Defenitely Sp.Atk's premier walls.

: Hoopa-U is a monster on Sp.Atk. 160 Atk is the highest Attack of all the availible mons, coupled with nice offensive Dark/Psychic typing. Nothing likes switching in to Hoopa-U.

Speed:

: Deoxys-S is really good on Speed. It's a nice hazard lead, but can also run the AoA set with a Life Orb, becoming Spd's best revenge killer.

: Probable best mega to run on Spd. mega Medicham is a heavy hitter with Pure Power. Destroys balanced Sp.Def teams and is good vs Atk teams. Really good mon on Spd, especially since Greninja got banned.

: Sorry, Talonflame is Spd's best revenge killer. Can either be SD, Bulk Up WoW, CB Talonflame is super scary to face. Attack and Special Attack teams really struggle to find switch ins to this thing.

Haven't played Def of Sp.Def yet to get opinions, will comment later...

I agree with you on the most part here other than medicham being the best mega. Lopunny gives speed a way to deal with the Tyranitar-Excadrill core and while it doesn't get bullet punch for priority, it gets a ridiculously powerful fake out and also outspeeds anything (except scarfers) that isn't on speed.

 

[DoW]

I agree with you on the most part here other than medicham being the best mega. Lopunny gives speed a way to deal with the Tyranitar-Excadrill core and while it doesn't get bullet punch for priority, it gets a ridiculously powerful fake out and also outspeeds anything (except scarfers) that isn't on speed.

Honestly, Speed has a huge amount of fast pokemon to pick between, while Mega Medicham offers a whole load more power allowing it to get through walls that Mega Lop might struggle with. It even has a stronger fake out despite lacking STAB on it:
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 96-114 (14.9 - 17.7%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 91-108 (14.1 - 16.8%) -- possible 6HKO

I think there's a strong case to be made for Mega Medicham helping the speed archetype more than Mega Lop, especially now you can't rely on Greninja to take teams apart.

 

[EV]

Snaquaza I'm not sure why some Ubers are allowed but I'd like you to consider putting this in line with OU. Usually OMs retroactively unban (or keep Ubers unbanned after OU bans them) because mechanics make them worse off versus other threats in the metagame. HSM doesn't offer new mechanics. Deoxys or Landorus or Mega Mawile are not worse here than in OU.

Thoughts?

 

[thesecondbest]

Maybe they're unbanned because they aren't broken. Isn't that a valid way to run a meta? Deo-D sucks as it was only used on HO and HO defense/special defense seems a tad gimmicky (doable, see sample teams, but gimmicky.) Deo-S is a revenge killer on Speed. Woo-hoo. Lando and Mawile however, might be too much, as Mawile is a great sweeper on Defense and Lando provides a sptker on Attack teams. Maybe those two will go, but why not unban them until they are proven guilty? I like this approach to the meta, as usually unbanning tests have a terrible reception with the community regardless of actual strength (see STABmons Deo-D, I brought it up and was murdered in the thread by an angry mob even though it was ranked very low in the previous VR). Snaq, keep up the good work! (but suspect mawile plz)

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

I, too, agree with this approach. Rather than directly using OU banlist, I'd prefer if we suspect the pokes one by one. This meta is similar to Monotype. When Landorus I was banned in OU, it was not banned in Monotype because it provides a necessary role for them (especially Ground). I think it's the same in here. Defense and SpD have Aegislash as a strong Special Attacker. Landorus I might be needed in Attack as it's one of the only Special Attackers there (unless you want to be forced to run Manaphy on every Attack team, which limits teambuilding too much Attack I think).

 

[TotalAsteroid]

I think the current approach is great, since they have limitations on their partners. Both Mega Mawile and Landorus both provide crucial roles for each of the teams. Mawile might be an exception, as it allows a very strong attacker for Attack, who already specialize in that particular stat, but mawile can also provide offensive or even defensive support for Defense teams. Landorus, on the other hand, allows attack to gain a very strong special attacker outside of Sableye (Atk/Def) and Manaphy. Deoxys were nerved by being only available on a stat where the gimmick is that they have extremes in one/two stat(s) and terrible in the rest. Attack/Normal are still absurd, but defense as basically no HP and offenses on a team with a lot of mixed walls and Speed teams already has a lot of tools, with Deo providing maybe exclusive hazards. Aegislash is something I'm questioning, since Defense/Special defense pokemon can be extremely varied in stat-distribution.