Highest Stat Meta

[Snaquaza]

Snaquaza I'm not sure why some Ubers are allowed but I'd like you to consider putting this in line with OU. Usually OMs retroactively unban (or keep Ubers unbanned after OU bans them) because mechanics make them worse off versus other threats in the metagame. HSM doesn't offer new mechanics. Deoxys or Landorus or Mega Mawile are not worse here than in OU.

Thoughts?

I agree with what the above posters said. This metagame was originally made during early XY when they weren't banned yet. When I started to play this again with Articuno I, we kept the original banlist. The past few days we've thought about suspects to make the metagame healthy, and none of us really feel Deoxys-D, Deoxys-S, Aegislash or Landorus I are broken in this metagame, and they all help their teams. Mega Mawile was a bit more controversial, but we allowed it because of its low speed and vulnerability to special attacks, while it gives Defense teams some offensive presence.

We may ban any of them if they appear to be too good, although I'd prefer not to, to keep a stable metagame.

 

[thesecondbest]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-276674252
You guys should probably prepare for cookie cutter sand attack offense. I think it's so easy and generic I'll give this as a sample team.
http://pastebin.com/gDMj0AiG
You can customize manaphy, lando-i and ttar if you want or add rp/sd to ladno/manaphy, but the team structure is generic as hell.

 

[EV]

I agree with what the above posters said. This metagame was originally made during early XY when they weren't banned yet. When I started to play this again with Articuno I, we kept the original banlist. The past few days we've thought about suspects to make the metagame healthy, and none of us really feel Deoxys-D, Deoxys-S, Aegislash or Landorus I are broken in this metagame, and they all help their teams. Mega Mawile was a bit more controversial, but we allowed it because of its low speed and vulnerability to special attacks, while it gives Defense teams some offensive presence.

Tell me, what special attackers are going to live a Sucker Punch or Focus Punch when Mawile is behind a sub? Not only is that list small, you've also just eliminated every other stat (HP, Attack, Defense, Special Defense, and Speed) as potential Mawile-check candidates. In other words, we're looking for a handful of Pokemon out of 1/6 of possible teams assuming every stat is represented equally in the metagame.

We may ban any of them if they appear to be too good, although I'd prefer not to, to keep a stable metagame.

What's stable about keeping Uber Pokemon in an OU setting, again, where no mechanics have changed to make said Uber Pokemon any worse?

 

[The Immortal]

The restrictiveness of this OM makes Uber Pokemon better because you have much less ways to deal with them.

 

[B. Katarn]

Well, even if we want to use the Ubers, Showdown keeps rejecting them. My Aegislash on my SpDf team keeps getting it rejected and hearing the same about teams with Mawile.

 

[DoW]

This meta has been compared to Monotype quite a bit and while I'm not 100% sold on the comparison, it holds to a certain extent.

Deoxys Defense and Speed formes are unbanned in Monotype, because they don't contribute all that much to psychic teams. I think there's a similar case here due to Deo-D only really providing things that Def and SpD teams already have, while Deo-S is a nice mon for Speed teams but again only provides either a fast attacker or lead, which Speed teams have plenty of. Because of this I see a reasonably strong case on paper for them not being broken, which from what I've seen while playing appears to be true. No Ban

Landorus-I isn't banned in Monotype, partly because the monotype environment causes it to almost always run the same moves (Earth Power, and 3 of Focus Blast, Sludge Wave, Psychic, and Stealth Rock). I don't really see this being the case in HSM, especially as if anything Attack is the strongest stat, with access to this, M-Maw, and the sand core. Ban

Maw I think should be banned. It only provides a high attack for Atk teams, but at the same time Atk teams are extremely strong and its ability to destroy both stall and offense is just huge. Ban

Aegislash I'm willing to go either way on. It's a strong mon, but Defense and SpD aren't the greatest of teams honestly and it's always seemed relatively easy to beat for other teams. HP Stall teams can get a scald burn and proceed to wear it down, while having access to mandibuzz aka effectively a counter (ignoring head smash sets). Offense can generally play around it to some extent, and while there still are 50/50s it doesn't honestly seem that bad from what I've found. Suspect at some point.

 

[Manchamp]

Yes this is playable on Showdown now!

I agree with all of Articuno's points on the banning debate. I don't see any reason why Lando I and Mega Mawile appear to be nerfed, they only seem better because of the restrictions in teambuilding. You cannot be able to have a counter and a check on the same team, like having mamoswine and chansey to stop LandoI. I'm sure there's a better example than that but I fully agree with banning those two.

 

[MadBull]

Well, even if we want to use the Ubers, Showdown keeps rejecting them. My Aegislash on my SpDf team keeps getting it rejected and hearing the same about teams with Mawile.

confirming, I made a Speed team with Deoxys-S, and Showdown tells me Deoxys-S is banned

 

[Snaquaza]

Talked to Eevee General, he convinced me to ban Ubers for now, unless a stat desperately needs a buff. Although I still don't think Deoxys-S, Deoxys-D and Aegislash were broken, he made some decent posts that I'm okay with for now. I removed them from the unbanlist.

 

[Arcticblast]

damnit now I have to use Scizor instead

 

[Catniss Everdeen]

So would a team of all pixie legendaries be viable? For instance:

Hide

Wishmaster (Jirachi) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Zen Headbutt
- U-turn
- Trick

Pyromancer (Victini) @ White Herb
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- Zen Headbutt
- U-turn

Timelord (Celebi) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe
Bold Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Baton Pass
- Recover
- Heal Bell

Seafarer (Manaphy) @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Energy Ball
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Prankster (Mew) @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
- Psyshock
- Will-O-Wisp
- Thunder Wave
- Roost

Storyteller (Diancie) @ Diancite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Moonblast
- Diamond Storm
- Earth Power
- Protect

 

[Jaguar360]

Ay, at the top of the ladder on the first day (was at 1226 earlier but w/e) ! First time I've been at the top since Middle Cup was OMotM I think. Doesn't matter of course, but it's a good feeling :)

I used a Sp. Atk team for the majority of my battles, but my HP one has been doing well too. SD Lucario's really good on Sp. Atk
teams and having access to Clefable is great. I actually have a SD Samurott on that team and while it hasn't done much amazing yet, it's not bad either and complements Luc well since it beats Gengar, Hippowdown, Slowbro etc. My HP team is a Double Bunny bulky offense team w/ Mega Audino (the only Mega on HP ;_;). M-Audino is decent, but the defensive set is really passive and the RU tank set doesn't have the longevity. Tank has faired better for me so far though, at least on this team.

Sp. Atk team

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Close Combat
- Iron Tail

Latios @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Memento

Houndoom @ Houndoominite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Taunt

Heatran @ Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power
- Fire Blast
- Stone Edge

Samurott @ Lum Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Aqua Jet
- Razor Shell
- Megahorn

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Moonblast
- Fire Blast
- Soft-Boiled

HP team

Diggersby @ Life Orb
Ability: Huge Power
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Quick Attack
- Frustration
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch

Azumarill @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Ice Punch

Victini @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blue Flare
- Trick
- Energy Ball
- Focus Blast

Audino-Mega @ Audinite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 168 Def / 92 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Wish
- Fire Blast
- Heal Bell

Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Knock Off
- Earthquake

Mandibuzz @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 108 SpD / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Foul Play
- Defog
- Roost
- Toxic

Manaphy's a major threat, especially to HP, Def and Sp. Def teams. My HP team only Scarf Victini and Seismitoad (which loses to Energy Ball ofc) to deal with it. Really considering putting Amoonguss over M-Audino check to better.

So would a team of all pixie legendaries be viable? For instance:

Hide

Wishmaster (Jirachi) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Zen Headbutt
- U-turn
- Trick

Pyromancer (Victini) @ White Herb
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- Zen Headbutt
- U-turn

Timelord (Celebi) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe
Bold Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Baton Pass
- Recover
- Heal Bell

Seafarer (Manaphy) @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Energy Ball
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Prankster (Mew) @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
- Psyshock
- Will-O-Wisp
- Thunder Wave
- Roost

Storyteller (Diancie) @ Diancite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Moonblast
- Diamond Storm
- Earth Power
- Protect

It looks like it could work. Increasing Mew's speed to 263 or more to outspeed and burn Bisharp seems like a good idea for this team and you should also probably replace T-Wave with Defog on it so that Victini in particular doesn't get worn down by hazards so much. Victini's item should be Choice Band imo. White Herb V-create isn't that great.

 

[Catniss Everdeen]

Thanks, will do!

 

[Knuckstrike]

Hi, I've made an attempt at a viability ranking. I only included the viable stuff from OU, UU, RU and the borderlines. Stuff like skuntank still have no place in this meta imo; there's enough viable alternatives even for HP. You can also see it as a list of usable pokemon. The pokemon are sorted by usefulness from high to low. There's some arbitrary divisions which can be seen as like the 5 through 1 star rankings. The same pokemon might be in a different order in a different stat list since, for example, sableye is a great addition to a defensive team but does not fit as well on an attack team.

Feel free to ridicule me for putting a certain mon too low or not on the list.

Speed

Talonflame

Lopunny (mega)

Manaphy
=====

Medicham (mega)

Weavile

Tornadus-t

Raikou

Aerodactyl (mega)

Manectric (mega)

Serperior
=====

Jirachi

Celebi

Starmie

Mew
=====

Victini

Hawlucha

Pidgeot (mega)

Sceptile (mega)
=====

Infernape

Galvantula

Dugtrio

Scolipede

Whimsicott

Attack

Kyurem-Black

Garchomp

Manaphy

Metagross (mega)

Landorus-t

Excadrill

Bisharp
=====

Gyarados (mega)

Tyranitar

Scizor (mega)

Mew

Pinsir (mega)

Tyranitar (mega)

Scizor
=====

Breloom

Gyarados

Beedrill (mega)

Mamoswine

Terrakion

Jirachi

Feraligatr

Celebi
=====

Sableye (mega)

Dragonite

Heracross (mega)

Victini

Azelf

Entei

Gallade (mega)
=====

Swampert (mega)

Crawdaunt

Conkeldurr

Staraptor

SpA

Charizard (mega x)

Keldeo

Clefable

Heatran
=====

Latios

Thundurus

Hoopa-unbound

Manaphy

Venusaur (mega)

Gengar

Mew

Gardevoir (mega)

Charizard (mega y)
=====

Latios (mega)

Magnezone

Togekiss

Victini

Raikou

Celebi

Manectric (mega)

Volcarona

Alakazam (mega)
=====

Jirachi

Zapdos

Thundurus-t

Empoleon

Alakazam
=====

Azelf

Hydreigon

Reuniclus

Defense

Sableye (mega)

Manaphy

Ferrothorn

Hippowdon

Skarmory

Slowbro
=====

Mew

Rotom-w

Gliscor

Slowbro (mega)

Diancie (mega)
=====

Celebi

Klefki

Jirachi

Tangrowth
=====

Victini

Zygarde

Chesnaught

Suicune
=====

Doublade

SpD

Manaphy

Altaria (mega)

Venusaur (mega)

Latias
=====

Politoed

Rotom-w

Celebi

Gothitelle

Latias (mega)
=====

Diancie (mega)

Mew

Kingdra

Jirachi
=====

Victini

Tentacruel

Sylveon

Ludicolo

Venusaur
=====

Jellicent

Slowking

Suicune

Cresselia

HP

Clefable

Manaphy

Azumarill
=====

Diggersby

Mew

Chansey
=====

Jirachi

Victini

Amoonguss

Mandibuzz

Celebi
=====

Vaporeon

Snorlax

Entei

Seismitoad
=====

Gastrodon

Glalie (mega)

Audino (mega)

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Lol manaphy's S in five out of 6 tiers

 

[TotalAsteroid]

Lol manaphy's S in five out of 6 tiers

Spooky

Manaphy: Destroyer of Archetypes

Edit: Hid image due to size, and this thing destroys whatever team archetypes the stat has trouble with.

 

[pahgawk3]

I've recently been running a HO Special Attack team to quite a bit of success, currently second on the ladder.

I've noticed a lot of attack teams revolving around a ttar-exca core. What do you guys think is the most popular and effective playstyles. I am considering trying to create a stall/semi-stall team around HP, but I think offense is the way to go in this meta.

 

[LightningRise750]

So ive noticed the Deoxys forms, greninja, and aegislash aren't allowed. Is it there just banned and the usesable pokes section is as the name states, or do those still need to be un-banned?

 

[thesecondbest]

Why is regular ttar not ranked? It's so good and should be the same rank as Exca. I think this was just a mistake though since you put exca very high.

 

[DoW]

So ive noticed the Deoxys forms, greninja, and aegislash aren't allowed. Is it there just banned and the usesable pokes section is as the name states, or do those still need to be un-banned?

Since becoming OMotM we've reverted to the OU banlist, so these things now can't be used. It's possible some of them may be unbanned if we feel the meta needs balancing out though.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Well personally I feel we should consider suspecting Excadrill. It's barely got any counters/switchs ins. On speed it's able to OHKO the majority of the tier while special attack falls to it's might easily. Defence handles it well but special defence struggles, especially after an SD, with the lack of unaware or blanket checks to Ground/Steel/Rock coverage is pityful.

 

[Knuckstrike]

Why is regular ttar not ranked? It's so good and should be the same rank as Exca. I think this was just a mistake though since you put exca very high.

I've put the regular formes along with their megas; for lati@s, ttar, alakazam, gyarados and scizor I did the same thing. You're right though, I should probably separate them. I'll do that in a min.

 

[Funbot28]

Since becoming OMotM we've reverted to the OU banlist, so these things now can't be used. It's possible some of them may be unbanned if we feel the meta needs balancing out though.

If we were to do this, then here are my opinions:

Deoxys-Defense

The only real reason it was banned in OU, was because the amazing DeoSharp HO teams that where running rampant at the time. Now, Deoxys-D is only limited to bulky Def or Sp.Def teams, and can never really achieve the HO teams it was known for being used for. Yes, it's bulky, and can set hazards, but so can most of the other mons in it's archtypes. I feel we should unban.

Deoxys-Speed

I'm a little more uncertain about this one, but I do feel that Deo-S has a chance in coming back to HSM. It's fast, but so is all the other members of it's teams. It can set up hazards, which there really isn't alot on Speed, and I feel the AoA set with Life Orb isn't all that impressive, considering the great amount of other more powerful revenge killers on Speed. It's still really good, but I feel that the environment was changed to adapt to it. Imo Unban.

Aegislash

Controversial yes, but here me out. Now that I have been playing HSM, I can't deny that offense on Atk and Sp.Atk are really dominant. Which leaves Def and Sp.Def struggling to give it's own offensive presence. I feel Aegislash could remedy this, as it's an amazing offensive glue to any team. I know 150 offenses may be too high, so that's why I feel we should at least suspect it.

Excadrill

Get this garbage out of here. Sand Offense is the best playstyle on Atk so far, and Excadrill is the main culprit. It literally destroys Speed, Sp.Def, sometimes HP, and Atk teams that don't have an Excadrill. I really feel it's overcentralizing the meta, and would feel it would be best to either ban Excadrill or Smooth Rock.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I don't want either of the Deoxys's into the tier, here me out. Three of the tiers have access to them, and they are just so insanely good at getting up multiple, multiple layers of hazards Mega Sableye is basically only used on defence, while Diancie is almost always used on sp.def, this gives you so few ways to prevent them from getting up these hazards and I feel like it wont be healthy for the tier.

 

[Manchamp]

My first venture has been a special Defense team, and I have had quite a lot of success with it (it's a very weird looking team but effective.) However, I have found that I need to run Hitmontop on my team because he is the only SpDef mom capable of countering and OHKOing Ttar+Exca offense. He does the job well and makes a great spinner against Def/HP teams (give Hitmontop a good ranking on SpDef teams).

That said, if I don't keep Top alive and my opponent brings in Exca, I'm as good as dead. Plz ban