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Hitmonlee (Full Revamp)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Colloquy, Oct 26, 2008.

  1. Havak

    Havak I'm the Best. You're a Towel.
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    I still wouldn't agree even if there's a major difference to be honest.

    Life Orb can get its own paragraph in the set, detailing what it can and can't do when compared with Choice Band and Choice Scarf.

    I really don't see an argument here, but whatever.
  2. X-Trader

    X-Trader

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    It depends on what the kid says, if he can convince us, then it'll stay the same if not, we'll take your suggestion. It's going to be hard to convince us anyways, since there probably isn't a major difference, and the fact it is almost identical.

    I think I just contradicted myself, but yeah I agree with Havak, unless the kid can convince us.
  3. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
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    I've been testing it out and the damage output on Double-Edge vs. common switch-ins leads me to believe it warranted. And it has a cool name.

    [SET]
    name: RecklessLee
    move 1: Close Combat
    move 2: Double-Edge
    move 3: Sucker Punch
    move 4: Stone Edge / Mach Punch / Earthquake
    item: Choice Band
    nature: Adamant
    ability: Reckless
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 HP / 252 Spe

    <p>Most of Hitmonlee's Psychic and Poison counters are solid under normal conditions. RecklessLee eliminates the reliability of these counters, dealing massive damage. The set is Choiced and Adamant to maximize Double-Edge damage output. With Stealth Rock down it OHKOs most Hypno and Grumpig variants. It can even 2HKO Max/Max Weezing, but generally you have to catch it on the switch or else it will WoW you.</p>

    <p>Otherwise Double-Edge has a respectable 144 Base Power and in a metagame lacking the huge HP scores found in many OU pokemon, the recoil is not too terrible. Close Combat has the same power as Reckless HJK with Perfect acc and no recoil worries. Sucker Punch rounds out coverage, somewhat makes up for speed, and helps deal with Ghosts. The final move can vary based on your team needs.</p>

    Supporting Calculations (Pokemon Resource 1.0):


    All calculations factor in 6% recovery from Leftovers on 2HKOs except for item specific sets.

    No mention of reliability = guaranteed
    Guaranteed = 100%
    Nearly All = 90-99%
    Most = >50%
    Half = 50%
    roughly half: 40-49%
    Shaky: <40%

    RecklessLee Double-Edge vs:

    CMSweeper Grumpig: 95-112% OHKO most of the time, guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock
    Choice Grumpig: 109-128% OHKO
    RestTalk Grumpig: 76-90%. 2HKO, OHKO roughly half the time with Stealth Rock.
    Anti-Lead Pig: 102-121% OHKO

    UU Tank Hypno: 81-95% 2HKO, OHKO half the time with Stealth Rock
    Boosting UU Tank/Non Pass Plotter: 92-108%, OHKO half of the time, guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock
    Switcheroo/Physical sweeper: 101-119%, OHKO

    Elemental Weezing: 49-57%, Shaky 2HKO generally, guaranteed 2HKO with Stealth Rock
    Physical Wall/Restalk Weezing: 46-54%. 3HKO. 2HKO nearly all of the time with Stealth Rock

    Standard Venusaur: 71-84%(Bold), 78-92%(Calm) 2HKO, shaky OHKO with Stealth Rock(Calm Only)
    ScarfSaur: 90-106%, Shaky OHKO generally, guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock
    SpecsSaur: 79-93%, 2HKO, OHKO roughly half with Stealth Rock
    SubSalac/SwordsSaur: 94-110%, OHKO most of the time, guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock.

    UU Tank/Restalk/Counter Nidoqueen: 54-64%, 2HKO
    OU Tank/Support Lead Nidoqueen: 51-60%, 2HKO most of the time, Guaranteed 2HKO with Stealth Rock
    Spiker Nidoqueen: 50-58%, 2HKO half of the time, Guaranteed 2HKO with Stealth Rock

    Utility Claydol: 57-67%, 2HKO
    CM Claydol: 59-69%, 2HKO
    RestTalk Claydol: 52-62%, 2HKO most of the time, Guaranteed 2HKO with Stealth Rock
    Supporting Lead CLaydol: 66-78%, 2HKO
    Trick Room Claydol: 71-84%, 2HKO
  4. Colloquy

    Colloquy

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    Huh. Well, if everyone thinks so, I'll change it. : /

    Added Reckless-Lee, and scrapped Counter-Lee.
  5. sanjay120

    sanjay120

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    I wouldn't mind Bulk Up on the LO set, but I can't say if it's actually useful enough to kick out of 'other options'.
  6. Colloquy

    Colloquy

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    Editted Everything
  7. Colloquy

    Colloquy

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    Bump, I fixed most of my writing issues, and changed EVs and shit so that the LO set was different than the Choice sets.
  8. twash

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    I would prefer 252 Speed to tie with other Hitmonlee...the EVs should be placed where they go best, which in my opinion is 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe. The Special Defense EVs seem a bit random, tying with other Hitmonlee is much more vital to me. You don't "change EVs" just so it's different from other sets. You should be using the best EV spread possible, end of.
  9. Colloquy

    Colloquy

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    Well, you don't need that much Speed if you're using Mach Punch and Bulk Up, just enough to beat base 85s. The "Speed tie with other Hitmonlee" is pretty rare, and you can just kill it with Mach Punch after a Bulk Up.
  10. twash

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    Seriously? What are the 4 extra Special Defense points actually doing? I'd rather presume I didn't have a Bulk Up, and nor did my opponent, I would rather those EVs were in Speed so I could go toe-to-toe with Hitmontop. It may be rare, but it's rarer that those 4 Special Defense points will be that handy, in my opinion.

    On top of this the EVs shouldn't even go into Special Defense, they should go into HP, which provides an overall better amount of Special Defense, as well as bonus Defence. Read this, X-Act's guide on maximizing defenses.
  11. Colloquy

    Colloquy

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    Whatever, I'll change it.

    And as for the SpD EVs, I was looking at what I had written before and thought that you needed SpD EVs so Stealth Rock rounds down. -_-
  12. yokie

    yokie

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    great job
  13. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    Just replace the Choice Bander with RecklessLee to make it distinguished. RecklessLee is a good way to combat Weezing.
  14. diinbong

    diinbong *it's in you to give*
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    Why not change "Choose Your Choice!" to "The Choice is Yours!" or at least "Pick Your Choice". I have to say that RecklessLee looks really cool. How does it fare with a Life Orb?
  15. Caelum

    Caelum qibz official stalker
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    I'm not trying to be rude Katherine, but really, you started this October 26th and it is still not complete. Try to get this done, you are still missing Set Comments for the final set and comments for Other Options and EVs.

    DARKIEDIT: I, on the other hand, don't care if you think I'm being rude. Get this done.
  16. Colloquy

    Colloquy

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    I've kind of given up on this, thanks to being ICBB and doing stuff with Wifi, so this should probably be closed unless someone wants to do it.
  17. X-Trader

    X-Trader

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    I can work on it for you if that is suitable with the moderators but why give up now when it is more than halfway done, plus the only real thing needed is writing up Set Comments, EVs, Opinion, Other Options, and Counters all of which are already outlined in the original analysis.
  18. umbarsc

    umbarsc

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    This is simply false. Claydol, Weezing, and RestTalk Rotom all avoid the 2HKO.

    Except Blaze Kick.
  19. twash

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    Now that Katherine is banned, I'll run through this later today (once I've finished what I'm doing for Caelum) and finish it off.
    -----
    [SET]
    name: Life Orb
    move 1: Close Combat
    move 2: Mach Punch
    move 3: Stone Edge
    move 4: Bulk Up / Earthquake
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    ability: Limber
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>Capable of OHKOing or 2HKOing almost everything in UU, this is without a doubt Hitmonlee's most destructive set, allowing it to rip through teams thanks to its amazing coverage and the boost from Life Orb.</p>

    <p>Close Combat allows Hitmonlee to absolutely destroy Steelix, easily 2HKOing the standard Steelix, dealing a minimum of 74%, while also destroying Probopass and Aggron. Stone Edge 2HKOes those pesky bulky Psychic-types like Hypno and Grumpig who resist your STAB Close Combat and Mach Punch. Mach Punch is a great choice on Hitmonlee, as its mediocre Speed can really let it down when faced with an opposing sweeper like Ninetales, but thanks to the Attack boost from Bulk Up, you can easily take it down. Bulk Up also serves another purpose, letting you boost Hitmonlee's terrible Defense as well as its Attack, turning it into a powerful, yet bulky sweeper. Earthquake can be used over Bulk Up if you want a more offensive Hitmonlee, as it provides great coverage with Stone Edge.</p>

    <p>The choice between Adamant and Jolly is rather simple. With Adamant and the given EVs, Hitmonlee hits 273 Speed, outpacing neutral base 85 Speed Pokemon, like Articuno and Toxicroak. With a Jolly nature, Hitmonlee hits 300 Speed, outspeeding most of the UU tier. It is recomended you do not run Mach Punch if using Jolly, because the power output isn't nearly as much as Adamant.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choose your Choice!
    move 1: Close Combat
    move 2: Stone Edge
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Sucker Punch / Blaze Kick
    item: Choice Band / Choice Scarf
    ability: Limber
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>With a Choice Band attached, Hitmonlee is an absolute monster, OHKOing even Steelix with Close Combat. This allows Hitmonlee to break stall even easier, but requires a lot more prediction to work effectively.</p>

    <p>Close Combat provides a reliable STAB move, which will OHKO most of the tier, and provides great coverage with Stone Edge. Earthquake would normally have rather redundant coverage on this set, but in UU, it works because of all the annoying Poison-types that wall you thanks to their resistances to Fighting and Rock-type moves, like Nidoqueen and Muk. Sucker Punch is usually a better option on the Choice Band set, as it allows you to go first against faster opponents that Hitmonlee cannot outpace normally, but Blaze Kick can work too, if you're especially worried about Venusaur and Vileplume.</p>

    <p>An Adamant nature allows you to OHKO Steelix, but a Jolly nature lets you hit the wonderful 300 Speed mark, outpacing threats such as Jolly Toxicroak and neutral base 100 Speed Pokemon.</p>

    <h3>Damage Calculations (Adamant Choice Band)</h3>
    <pre>
    Close Combat vs. 252 HP Impish Steelix: 86 - 100%
    Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 152 Def Bold Clefable: 100%
    Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Adamant Hitmontop: 82 - 97% (Possible OHKO with Stealth Rock)
    Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 144 Def Bold Claydol: 36 - 42%
    Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Blastoise: 61 - 72%
    </pre>

    <p>If you decide that you want to use Hitmonlee as a revenge-killer or just to sweep while being faster, Choice Scarf is the option of choice. With the Speed boost, Mach Punch and Sucker Punch can be removed, because you are already faster than the opponents you would be hitting with those priority moves, and you can use both Blaze Kick and Earthquake. If you use an Adamant nature, Hitmonlee reaches 410 Speed with a Choice Scarf, 450 Speed with Jolly and a Choice Scarf.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Reversal
    move 1: Substitute / Endure
    move 2: Reversal
    move 3: Stone Edge
    move 4: Bulk Up / Sucker Punch
    item: Salac Berry
    nature: Adamant
    ability: Limber
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [Set Comments]
    <p>Hitmontop can cause huge damage in UU with Reversal, tearing up Pokémon with a fearsome 150 base power STAB move. Substitute down until Hitmontop has 1 HP, at which point Hitmonlee should have the Salac Berry boost. This then allows Hitmonlee to unleash incredibly powerful Reversals, with Stone Edge at its disposal for any Flying-types that dare intervene. Hitmonlee may find time to Bulk Up during the Substitute chain, upon which its Reversals will become even more powerful. However, Sucker Punch can be used to help deal with opposing priority users, who may try to spoil Hitmonlee's fun.</p>

    [Other Options]
    <p>Reckless can work with Double-Edge, but should never be used with Hi Jump Kick, for it will only have the same power as the more accurate Close Combat. Hitmonlee can Rapid Spin, but its counterpart Hitmontop does it better.</p.

    [EVs]
    <p>Maximum Attack, and max Speed are standard on most sets, and the nature should depend on the set. Extra EVs should go anywhere but HP, so that Life Orb and Stealth Rock damage round down. Make sure when using Reversal, that your HP is indivisible by 4, allowing Hitmonlee to create four Substitutes.</p>

    [Opinion]
    <p>With the highest Attack stat and the second highest Speed stat of all the UU Fighting-types, Hitmonlee is a force to be reckoned with. Couple that with an impressive movepool, and you have one of the best sweepers in UU. Hitmonlee can really mess up stall play in the UU tier, making him a great choice for most UU teams. </p>

    [Counters]
    <p>The number one counter for Hitmonlee is Claydol. It resists Stone Edge and Close Combat, and is immune to Earthquake, while it threatens Hitmonlee with STAB Psychic. Weezing is also very effective, taking little from Hitmonlee's attacks, and burning it with Will-O-Wisp. Nidoqueen and Toxicroak also make decent counters, but they must avoid Earthquake. Rotom can burn it, and is immune to Close Combat and Earthquake. Scyther and Altaria can both come in on most moves and OHKO with Aerial Ace and Outrage. Venusaur can come in on every attack (even Earthquake is a 3HKO), bar Blaze Kick, and then OHKO with Leaf Storm, or set up.</p>

    <p>In general, Poison-types, Ghosts, and Flying-types do a good job of countering Hitmonlee. Hitmonlee also has low defenses, so just exploit that to eliminate it.</p>
  20. SithLord

    SithLord

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    Strictly speaking, this is not true. Even with SR support, min/min Ninetales isn't OHKOed by Adamant +1 LO Mach Punch. Maybe change this sentence to:

    also

  21. umbarsc

    umbarsc

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    Is there any particular reason the 4 leftover EVs are placed in SpD? Hitmonlee has a naturally high SpD, so those extra EVs are better invested towards his shitty HP.
  22. Caelum

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    @umbarsc: Read the analysis next time.


    @Sithlord: I'll handle it, I fixed the 2nd problem already anyway.

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