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Hitmontop

Discussion in 'Global Battle Union' started by Ashenlock, Aug 19, 2011.

  1. Ashenlock

    Ashenlock

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    With a very unimpressive BST of 455, Hitmontop doesn't look at first to be amounting to much. Fortunately, he received a couple good priority moves like Mach Punch and Sucker Punch, as well as the mighty Close Combat. But the heart of Hitmontop's power lies in one of the best moves in Doubles and one of the best abilities in Doubles; in having both, to be specific, a quality only shared by one other Pokemon yet to be released.


    Hitmontop -> Double Battles


    ->Recycle<-


    [​IMG]

    Hitmontop @ Eject Button
    ADAMANT
    +Intimidate+
    6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    -Fake Out
    -Close Combat
    -Sucker Punch
    -Wide Guard / Feint / Helping Hand / Detect

    The namesake of this set lies in Hitmontop's item; he comes in, gets hit, and is out again, able to once more use his Fake Out and Intimidate. Close Combat is self-explanatory, and is the general choice on this type of Hitmontop, since he's going to switch frequently anyway; Stone Edge is chosen over Rock Slide both because Hitmontop is fairly slow, and because, without a huge Atk stat either, he won't be KOing what he wants with Rock Slide.

    Eject Button serves in other situations as well. Say you're running a rain team yet the sun is up, and Politoed is on the field right now. You'll have to spend two turns to renew the rain by switching him out and in, right? Well, let's also say there's an enemy Exeggutor looking to use a powerful Grass-type move on Politoed. What do you do? Switch Politoed out and put Hitmontop in; he'll get hit, be ejected, and in can come Politoed, all in one turn.

    The EVs are a little awkward and subject to whoever uses him; it's tempting to buff up his HP since his Def and SpD are so good, but what he suffers in Spe will mean he may get hit by an attack BEFORE he gets to attack and then ejected, wasting a move.

    ->Priority<-

    [​IMG]

    Hitmontop @ Life Orb / Fighting Gem / Dark Gem
    ADAMANT
    +Technician+
    252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 Def
    -Fake Out
    -Mach Punch / Low Sweep
    -Sucker Punch
    -Wide Guard / Feint / Detect

    A more offensive Hitmontop, truly worthy of the term "Technician" because he is, in a sense, a specialist. He works out specific problems--a fast sweeper, a Protecting low-HP foe, an enemy that needs some stalling--then returns to the back rows, if you want him to come back later for another Fake Out. Many pokemon--especially frail Sashers--can be taken out by a combo Fake Out-then-Mach Punch or Sucker Punch. Between the latter two Hitmontop has almost perfect coverage, and covers all the Pokemon in the niche he's meant to fill. His total priority also allows him to bolster up his HP to take advantage of his good Def and great SpD.
  2. soul_survivor

    soul_survivor

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    Argh beating to making this, but one noteworthy moves is wide guard.Very useful in doubles.
    Also i once ran a support top that worked so well w/ my scarf abamasnow in doubles. it goes like this:

    hitmontop@fighting gem
    intimidate
    impish
    252 hp, 252 sp.def

    fake out
    close combat/low kick
    feint/wideguard/helpinghand
    feint/wideguard/helping hand


    Basic set, that works with tops defensive ability, as well as supportive abilities. feint breaks protect as well as finishing sashed mons. helping hand helps your partner as hitmontop doesnt hav enough power to ko himself, while wide guard protects ypur team from multi hitying moves, also one thing to note wide guard protects top from your own attacks like discharge, surf, and eq to name a few. fighting gem is a must as no evs are in attack.
  3. Ashenlock

    Ashenlock

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    Bleh, how did I forget about Helping Hand? Thank you for reminding me about that.

    While Wide Guard is pretty useful in VGC2011, I don't see it being as much use in the broader Doubles. In VGC, you have to worry about things like Discharge-Earthquake, Water Spout, and Heat Wave, and while those things exist in general Doubles too there are just so many possibilities that I don't see there being a situation where, occupying a moveslot, it ultimately pays off. At best I think you'll only ever use it successfully a few times, and even then it will probably only block one Pokemon's attack, which will mean you're one-for-one that turn. There's actually a discussion about this in the beginning of the Double Battle Metagame (GBU) thread.
  4. DreamTalon

    DreamTalon

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    I know that late game flinch is popular, but all I see that comes from the Recycle set is a way to set up something again. I personally favor TechnicianTop as it deals so much damage, but because of WiFi preview, RecycleTop may be very effective, as I haven't tested It out.
  5. muffinhead

    muffinhead b202 wifi vgc
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    Stone Edge is the worst move in double battles..

    standard doubles top is 252 hp/252 atk/4 spe with Technician and Life Orb. It gets the most KOes, hands down. Standard moveset is fake out, Mach Punch, Sucker Punch, and Detect (wide guard for triples). Intimidate with an Eject Button should run the exact same moves. Hitmontop is good because of its Fighting + Dark priority with Fake Out support. Not using top's priority to the fullest extent is basically putting top down with the other fighting Pokemon (who are striving to become hitmontop in the first place).
  6. Solace

    Solace swing from the chandelier
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    for intimidate mach punch vs close combat is kind of tricky it seems, so i'd put in something about the value of both of them in different situations
  7. soul_survivor

    soul_survivor

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    I actually run recycletop, and you never want to run mach punch. Its wayyy to weak. you won't net crucial ko's with mach punch like close combat would. Also in my time playing gbu, it seemed like techni-top is dead(vs jp players). Every battle vs most players using top used intimidate too. I believed technitop is more offensive, while recycletop is more of a supporter, but i do believe sucker punch should be slashed in with stone edge.
  8. Ashenlock

    Ashenlock

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    I'll edit in the suggestions.

    Remember that nonSTAB Rock Slide only hits each opponent for ~56 attack power, which is only a little more than Stone Edge hits one opponent. Rock Slide's 81% chance to hit both foes only barely outweighs Stone Edge's 80% to hit one foe, and while the great flinch rate is handy, Hitmontop is also very slow and too weak to KO what it wants with a 56 attack move, not to mention that the likelihood of two Pokemon being weak to Rock in the vanguard at once is very low. Certainly I'll edit it in, and since not everyone runs slow-top I'll give it priority over Stone Edge, but "Stone Edge is the worst move in Doubles" is way too harsh. Moves like Submission are far worse.

    I'll add Sucker Punch to the main set too. Also, sorry I never added Helping Hand as an option in spite of saying I would, it's very useful on the Eject set since it goes off before any attack move can knock Hitmontop out of the fray.
  9. DreamTalon

    DreamTalon

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    You have to remember that Hitmontop doesn't have good attack. All it's offensive capabilities are in Technician boost. Recycle set is definitely the best for a team that needs some physical defensive support, as well as Fake Out and maybe even Helping Hand.
  10. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer pewpewpew
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    It's not a matter of using Rock Slide over Stone Edge, it's using a Rock-type move at all. Hitmontop should be paired with a partner that can handle Flying-types, and the Rock-type move takes up a moveslot best reserved for another attack, just like what muffinhead posted originally. The point is not that Rock Slide is better than Stone Edge (although it is), but that Hitmontop shouldn't be using that move.
  11. Human

    Human

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    Exactly.

    The EV spreads worth mention are 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def or 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe and alternatively for the second spread 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe.

    The second one is meant for Tailwind where you hit 101 speed which lets you outspeed base 130s in Tailwind. The third one is also meant for Tailwind where you hit 93 speed to outspeed Whimsicott/Zebstrika and obviously everything 115 base speed and below.

    Standard moveset is almost always this.

    Fake Out
    Close Combat / Mach Punch
    Sucker Punch
    Detect / Wide Guard

    Close Combat used with Intimidate while Mach Punch used with Technician.

    For the item Technician uses Life Orb and for Intimidate I'm not sure but I've used Leftovers a bit and its been working well, I haven't used Hitmontop with Intimidate and other items enough to recommend anything myself for it.
  12. Ashenlock

    Ashenlock

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    I think y'all made a very good case for Sucker Punch, which is why I made it the only option in the third slot of Recycle. I went with Stone Edge originally because when I made my Hitmontops, I didn't have access to a tutor for Sucker Punch. It worked well enough, but I think Sucker Punch would work better, so I included that.

    Outside of VGC, Wide Guard has a very tough time paying the opportunity cost of a moveslot in Doubles. Without going into too much detail, there was a discussion about this in the first post of the Doubles Metagame thread.

    Although Tailwind sets have been on some of the threads in this forum, it's not all that common or potent. I've seen less than 15 teams of them on the GBU, and most of them were with Unova-exclusive Pokemon (I understand that Tailwind was much more common in VGC2011). Certainly if you're making a tailwind team it's useful to have specific EV spreads, but it isn't a very common Hitmontop that works with them.

    EDIT: Sorry, I meant "first page."
  13. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer pewpewpew
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    Putting aside that it's one of the best moves in doubles and triples, it's excellent even just in its value to Hitmontop alone in stopping Surfs and Blizzards from hitting its comparatively weaker Special Defense (thanks to Intimidate). There's also no such discussion in the OP of that thread...
  14. JRank

    JRank
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    Moves Wide Guard helps against:

    -Moves that hit your side only (when opponent uses them)
    Heat Wave
    Blizzard
    Rock Slide
    Water Spout
    Icy Wind
    Air Cutter
    Muddy Water
    etc

    -Moves that affect everyone (helpful if your teammate is using them or the opposing team is)

    Explosion
    Earthquake
    Surf
    Sludge Wave
    Selfdestruct
    Lava Plume

    And I probably forgot a bunch. Point is, Wide Guard is AMAZING in doubles (and so is Tailwind, though maybe not to quite the extent it was in VGC 2011)
  15. iss

    iss happily ever after
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    Exactly what JRank said. Ashenlock, Wide Guard was extremely rare in VGC 2011, and obviously didn't exist in '09 and '10. However, it is an excellent move in GBU.

    also close combat > low sweep. Far superior. Hitmontop doesn't exactly have amazing Attack, and it really needs the extra power.
  16. Ashenlock

    Ashenlock

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    It was Quick Guard in specific that got debated (my bad) though the idea is *somewhat* the same. Wide Guard is useful when you have wide-area spam like EQ + Discharge, which was probably useful for part of VGC2011 (I have limited experience in that field, so correct me if I'm wrong about that) but I have quite literally NEVER seen a foe use two wide-hit moves at once, perhaps out of fear of Wide Guard. If just one foe is using a wide-hit attack, it just isn't worth the slot, since you effectively just sacrifice your move to stop their move. It would be better to pack something like another attack or just Protect, which could block any move save Feint/Flame Burst.

    I'm not going to argue experiences with the move, since I don't know what y'all have seen, but I'm not lying when I say that after over 1000 battles I haven't seen wide-area spam even once (that is, two wide area attacks a turn). Just one, even if it's something like Icy Wind, and you're better off with Fake Out (Or you SHOULD have an adequate partner in or about to be in).

    Anyhow:

  17. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer pewpewpew
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    Wide Guard wasn't that useful in VGC 11 precisely because of the very small number of Pokemon that could effectively abuse spread attacks; it was limited to mostly Jellicent and Terrakion. However, that's irrelevant to the current dispute. However, just with rain alone being the force that it is, Wide Guard is useful. However, with Pokemon such as Terrakion, Rhyperior, Infernape, and Excadrill in use as well, Wide Guard can prove useful every common team archetype.
    ...you can have an appropriate partner for every single spread attack? That's news to me. The comparisons to Protect are irrelevant, since Wide Guard also protects your partner, which is why it's useful in the first place. For that reason, it's not only useful against two spread attacks at once. Wide Guard has excellent utility against a multitude of common Pokemon and attacks, which has been restated time and time again.

    EDIT: OK, the answer is yes, a multitude of users have made excellent use of Wide Guard, and on a reasonably bulky Pokemon such as Hitmontop, it works wonders. The end.
  18. Solace

    Solace swing from the chandelier
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    alright listen

    i don't want to have to hear about people arguing over a move! if you really believe it should be in there, post here like civilized people and if it has enough support behind it, the OP or one of the respective forum mods will take care of it! There's no need to make baiting posts and flamey arguments or troll over someone having different experiences to someone else.

    if i see any of this again, regardless of who is involved, all parties involved are getting warned.

    this is utterly insane and we are working as a team, there's no need to out someone.
  19. DreamTalon

    DreamTalon

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    RecycleTop isn't practical in some situations. I recomeend slashing in Sitrus Berry for extra bulk and the ability to survive hits and get kills during the match with constantly being shuffled.
  20. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer pewpewpew
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    Recycle isn't the actual set in the OP, it's just the name lol. Sitrus Berry is definitely usable on Hitmontop, but Eject Button has such excellent utility that I personally would pretty much always want to use that over Sitrus.
  21. Sprocket

    Sprocket P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n

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    I've been using this set ripped right from the VGC2012 analysis, and it's quite effective for it's utility (though it does lack in offensive power):

    name: Doubles Intimidate Support
    move 1: Fake Out
    move 2: Mach Punch
    move 3: Sucker Punch
    move 4: Wide Guard
    item: Eject Button
    ability: Intimidate
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe

    The reduced damage from Mach Punch instead of Close Combat is noticeable, but it ensures you will almost always land a hit, whereas with Close Combat you run the risk of being outsped.

    One effective counter I've seen is Prankster Sableye. It's immune to Fake Out and Mach Punch/Close Combat, and you can only hit it with Sucker Punch if it directly attacks (99% of the time it won't).

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