"Surf can't be forgotten now!" if you're still surfing, but let you forget it normally if you're not? I'm pretty sure they can run a check to see if you're in the water when you go to forget Surf.
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HMs
- Thread starter Celever
- Start date
Make the HM key items ...
Surf -> Surfboard
Fly -> I was so disappointed in BW that you can't really use the subway as real subway except the small useless town in the North West
Waterfall -> Water Rope
Rock Climb -> Ground Rope
Cut -> Axe
Flash -> Torch light
Strength -> Boxing gloves ... ?
Whirlpool -> I don't know ... Maybe an upgrade of surf board
Surf -> Surfboard
Fly -> I was so disappointed in BW that you can't really use the subway as real subway except the small useless town in the North West
Waterfall -> Water Rope
Rock Climb -> Ground Rope
Cut -> Axe
Flash -> Torch light
Strength -> Boxing gloves ... ?
Whirlpool -> I don't know ... Maybe an upgrade of surf board
I think in all honesty, they might've thought of that already. Maybe not, but I think it's a possibility. Also, it defeats the purpose of having a certain Pokemon have to be able to learn a certain move to progress in the story and complete a puzzle, when you have everything in your pocket and there are no requirements except the gym badge, you could just breeze through the entire game faster.
You know, I think Flash stopped being an HM a while ago and is just a TM now. I feel like that'd be a better route to go, and just have a condition on Surf so you can't forget it while surfing. They'd still be around and required, but you could teach one to a 'mon, then get rid of it once you don't need it. The problem with the key item idea is both what was outlined above and also the fact that it starts to remove the pokemon themselves from the overworld gameplay and starts to take away from the feel the games have had since gen 1. I'm for either making HMs into TMs or them just going back to their roots and teasing you with things you can't get without the right HMs like back in gen 1.
Make Cut have like 70 base power or higher critical-hit ratio for the 95 accuracy, and that would probably go a long way. Maybe give Strength a chance to flinch while we're at it. With Flash now having a completely different function as well as being a TM, Cut is currently the worst of the HMs in game, so I feel like it's the only one in dire need of improvement. Making the items behind trees needing Cut to get past them actually worthwhile can help too.
But that's just my thoughts.
But that's just my thoughts.
What if regular attacks could be used in place of HMs? Foresight and Odor Sleuth could be used like the Silph Scope and if you have the right pokemon you could start going up pokemon tower sooner in the game. I hate that I have to get a squirt bottle just to wake Sudowoodo up. A) it's a pokemon and I'm walking next to it, attack me like those guys in the grass. B) I have a water type, use water gun. C) Why can't I try to use cut on it? That would have been more interesting for Cut to not work and you needed someone to be able to use Rock Smash on the false tree pokemon to progress.
I once had this idea to make items that do the exact same thing as HMs. Such as an axe to replace Cut, or an inflatable raft to replace Surf.
The problem with that, as mentioned earlier, is that it would take the focus of the game off of Pokémon. The idea is that you need to teach your Pokémon moves to overcome obstacles rather than just using items.
However, I'm thinking a bit of the Pokémon Ranger series and how you overcome obstacles there. What if each Pokémon had one kind of field tactic it could naturally perform? Pawniard or Snivy might be able to cut down trees, while Lapras and Gyarados would let you move across water. Alakazam could teleport you to the nearest Pokémon Center, Mareep could lower encounter rates... The HM moves could become TMs or just level-up moves. This would allow the Pokémon to still take center stage, without a bad moving wasting space on your team. It would restrict your team choice a little, but I feel that the effects wouldn't be too bad.
And we'll just arm wrestle the gym leaders while we're at it too. It's not a pokemon game unless you utilise the pokemon somehow...
As movepools steadily expand over the generations, and players are increasingly inconvenienced by HMs, I think GameFreak will change the system some day in the near future. The moves themselves are for the most part quite bad, and they restrict what kind of Pokémon you can travel with or how their in-game moveset works. I mean, keeping Rock Smash and Cut around until the Elite Four gets a little boring, as you're continuously presented with better moves your Pokémon could have as they level up (and for every generation, that happens with increasing frequency. Level-up learnsets don't stop at level 40 any more, nor do they contain only ten moves). This is most notable with Starter Pokémon, should you be so unfortunate to have only one Cut-capable 'mon when you first get the HM.
If it was up to me, I'd leave the HMs in. Just not make them moves, but rather learnable skills of sorts. Any Pokémon currently able to learn, say, Cut, would have the "cutting" attribute and be capable of cutting down trees, once the HM is obtained (I don't think actually teaching it to the Pokémon would be necessary, since it wouldn't be a move per se anyway). Strong Pokémon could smash rocks or push them aside, Water Pokémon could Surf, et cetera. The actual learn list for each HM would be reduced somewhat (no more surfing on Sneasel or Rhydon, sorry), but the concept of HM slaving wouldn't be a thing either. HM Obstacles could be kept in as-is, or even become more common since they don't impact your team composition to the same degree any more. You'd still get to utilize your Pokémon to get around the map, but it wouldn't affect their movelist.
If it was up to me, I'd leave the HMs in. Just not make them moves, but rather learnable skills of sorts. Any Pokémon currently able to learn, say, Cut, would have the "cutting" attribute and be capable of cutting down trees, once the HM is obtained (I don't think actually teaching it to the Pokémon would be necessary, since it wouldn't be a move per se anyway). Strong Pokémon could smash rocks or push them aside, Water Pokémon could Surf, et cetera. The actual learn list for each HM would be reduced somewhat (no more surfing on Sneasel or Rhydon, sorry), but the concept of HM slaving wouldn't be a thing either. HM Obstacles could be kept in as-is, or even become more common since they don't impact your team composition to the same degree any more. You'd still get to utilize your Pokémon to get around the map, but it wouldn't affect their movelist.
I don't mind the usable HM's (Surf/Waterfall) being needed for story progression... But I think they should all be required for the maximum amount of exploration.
I loved Black and White cause past the start of the game (and cutting down a singular tree), you never ever need to use another HM throughout the entire game. For me (being a compulsive re-runner) this opened up a hell of a lot more options in terms of team builds because I didn't need a Surf Pokemon or a Flyer... You can catch a pidove/tranquil early enough, and then teach it fly for the oen point in the game where you have to fly back to Nimbasa (from Iccirus) to go to the desert and back...
It ends up at the point (especially in DPPt/SSHG) where you only have 3 or 4 "free" slots. You always need a flyer and you always need a Surfer/Waterfaller (and most obnoxiously Rock Climb/Defog). Most of the time these cant be combined (without severely gimping the mon in question). XY isnt so bad, only Surf is really required (You only need to fly once or twice throughout the game). But what XY did right is it gave you areas you need the other HMs to explore; Leftovers needs Cut, Dark Pulse TM requires Surf/Waterfall and Cut to reach etc.
Give us more areas where HMs are required to explore, and less reliance on HMs during the story. Then you can equip an "exploration team" if you like with everything you need to get around and then go out getting all those items/rare mons/hidden areas.
I loved Black and White cause past the start of the game (and cutting down a singular tree), you never ever need to use another HM throughout the entire game. For me (being a compulsive re-runner) this opened up a hell of a lot more options in terms of team builds because I didn't need a Surf Pokemon or a Flyer... You can catch a pidove/tranquil early enough, and then teach it fly for the oen point in the game where you have to fly back to Nimbasa (from Iccirus) to go to the desert and back...
It ends up at the point (especially in DPPt/SSHG) where you only have 3 or 4 "free" slots. You always need a flyer and you always need a Surfer/Waterfaller (and most obnoxiously Rock Climb/Defog). Most of the time these cant be combined (without severely gimping the mon in question). XY isnt so bad, only Surf is really required (You only need to fly once or twice throughout the game). But what XY did right is it gave you areas you need the other HMs to explore; Leftovers needs Cut, Dark Pulse TM requires Surf/Waterfall and Cut to reach etc.
Give us more areas where HMs are required to explore, and less reliance on HMs during the story. Then you can equip an "exploration team" if you like with everything you need to get around and then go out getting all those items/rare mons/hidden areas.
New rule: No more normal type HMs unless they do more damage than Return or have a +40% chance of doing something cool.
Another idea I thought of was letting HMs be permanent as they are now but can be replaced by other specific HMs that do the same but more. You still need the badges to use the moves to slow progress and for most of them you should have a HM
Defog <=> Fly: Would be better for the main game if defog could be upgraded and competitive games can still have their hazard clearer
Surf => Waterfall/[special version]: As long as you have one of these, you can move over water but you need to upgrade to go over waterfalls or whirlpools. It's also important that a special and physical version be made so anyone who used surf effectively could still use it.
Cut+Rock Smash => [Cold Steel]: Make it super effective to grass and rock types and everyone can be happy that they can cut trees and smash rocks, it doesn't even have to have a high power just make it more useful.
Rock Smash => Strength <=> Superpower/Close Combat: Another nice thing they could do, make regular moves random pokemon learn useful or just let HMs become those moves if the right machine is found.
Flash => Flash Cannon: Again, people just want their moves to be worth having and not set up 1-2 pokemon to be dead weight and learn 50 base power normal attacks.
Another idea I thought of was letting HMs be permanent as they are now but can be replaced by other specific HMs that do the same but more. You still need the badges to use the moves to slow progress and for most of them you should have a HM
Defog <=> Fly: Would be better for the main game if defog could be upgraded and competitive games can still have their hazard clearer
Surf => Waterfall/[special version]: As long as you have one of these, you can move over water but you need to upgrade to go over waterfalls or whirlpools. It's also important that a special and physical version be made so anyone who used surf effectively could still use it.
Cut+Rock Smash => [Cold Steel]: Make it super effective to grass and rock types and everyone can be happy that they can cut trees and smash rocks, it doesn't even have to have a high power just make it more useful.
Rock Smash => Strength <=> Superpower/Close Combat: Another nice thing they could do, make regular moves random pokemon learn useful or just let HMs become those moves if the right machine is found.
Flash => Flash Cannon: Again, people just want their moves to be worth having and not set up 1-2 pokemon to be dead weight and learn 50 base power normal attacks.
Gonna go off of gen 6 HMs here
Surf and Waterfall are fine to me; they're both very good, solid water attacks available to many 'mon. So keep those obviously.
As for the others... I feel Strength's been fantastic since gen 5. The fact that all strength puzzles are only required to be done once is amazing and lets you dump the HM completely afterwards. So I'm fine with that.
Fly's fine, I feel - though I don't know how it could be made better battle-wise. Obviously right now it's pretty shit, but... don't really know what to do about it. At least it's funny with the trollwings talonflame.
Cut... should either get the same TM treatment Rock Smash and Flash got, or be replaced by a Key Item which does the same task - it's simply too weak and too annoying to be justifiable.
Surf and Waterfall are fine to me; they're both very good, solid water attacks available to many 'mon. So keep those obviously.
As for the others... I feel Strength's been fantastic since gen 5. The fact that all strength puzzles are only required to be done once is amazing and lets you dump the HM completely afterwards. So I'm fine with that.
Fly's fine, I feel - though I don't know how it could be made better battle-wise. Obviously right now it's pretty shit, but... don't really know what to do about it. At least it's funny with the trollwings talonflame.
Cut... should either get the same TM treatment Rock Smash and Flash got, or be replaced by a Key Item which does the same task - it's simply too weak and too annoying to be justifiable.