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Ho-oh – Is it truly an Uber?

Discussion in 'Stark Mountain' started by Jetx, Oct 8, 2008.

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  1. Jetx

    Jetx

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    I know this is going to seem like some joke. For years, Ho-oh has been regarded as one of the gods of Pokémon, complete with one of those insane 154-base stats. But is it really deserving of that title, especially now that Stealth Rock puts a huge burden on it, enough so that it is never even used in the Uber environment (a place where Stealth Rock is even less common)?

    I brought this topic up on the Smogon Shoddy chat last night, an hour before I was due to go to bed, so I was pretty distracted and couldn’t get all the thoughts I will show here down into discussions. Anyway, though a couple of people were open-minded enough to see my points (and the people that didn’t hardly deserve to be called close-minded, of course), most people probably thought I was some noob who didn’t know what he was talking about. Don’t let the fact I’m new make anybody treat me differently; I’ve been lurking in the Smogon forums for months and I should hope that by now I know what I’m talking about, along with who a lot of you are. Back to the point, I didn’t have time to think last night, but now I have given this more thought and come up with some far better arguments. I ended up in a battle against kd24 where he used a Ho-oh set he thought to be broken against me to show me how broken it was; this set was Sacred Fire / Earthquake / Thunderbolt / Ancientpower @ Life Orb, if I remember correctly, though I’ve no idea on the EV spread. I will go into detail on this set and why I am certain that it is not broken later, but for now I need to get down to business… (By the way, I did end up losing after having four battle worn members of my team picked off at the end by a ScarfZapdos, but given the chance to go back in time I think I could have won, as I will explain later on)

    What got Garchomp pushed up to Uber? It was the lack of counters. But Ho-oh isn’t in that situation; it has 130 base attack, 110 base special attack, and 90 base speed. Offensively, this Pokémon is not going to be ripping holes in the metagame. Garchomp had 130 attack and 102 speed, along with a way to ramp that up to painful heights, namely Swords Dance. Ho-oh has none of that, and the only way it can put any boost on its power is through items. The Choice Band set and its flaws are very clear; it can be walled by many things in our metagame, some of which are able to use it to their advantage to punish the opponent’s team, and Ho-oh is forced to turn on its heels and switch out upon seeing one of these walls. The best counter for this set I could think of too quickly is none other than our favourite BL disappointment, Rhyperior. The only problem Rhyperior could possibly have with switching in would be a burn from Sacred Fire, but its Stone Edge could still do a hell of a lot back to it even with a burn. Rhyperior also has two more fantastic weapons to make CBHo-oh’s life hell: Stealth Rock and Roar. Come in on Ho-oh and set up Stealth Rock as this old Uber’s attacks do nothing more than bounce off its impressive 115 / 130 defences, and yes, with help from Solid Rock you can be sure that Earthquake won’t be too much of a problem either. Using Roar means that their switch to a Rhyperior counter or Rapid Spinner will be met with another switch and more SR damage, especially if Ho-oh comes back and takes the 50% health loss. Rhyperior is just an example; Swampert is probably even better thanks to its ability to use specially based moves to hit it SE, and the Roar / Stealth Rock combo. Skarmory can come in on any move other than Sacred Fire and use that combo. And here’s one interesting counter to this Uber’s most recommended set: your generic bulky water. Sacred Fire can burn, which is nothing but protection from status and in Milotic’s case a 50% defence boost thanks to Marvel Scale. Suicune gets a free Calm Mind (and this is one thing that would probably go up in usage if Ho-oh was really that good), and Swampert could get a free Curse. There are plenty of other counters and I’m not going to list them, they aren’t hard to find. So a purely physical Ho-oh is not much better than a lot of other physical attackers, basically.

    Next we move onto special Ho-oh. Choice Specs Ho-oh is barely even worth using, with its only significant advantage over others being its bulkiness. It would be much like a Choice Specs Vaporeon. This is walled even more easily, 110 base special attack isn’t that exciting even by OU standards, and Blissey switches in for free and can set up its nemesis Stealth Rock, or attack it directly. I’m not even going to go into details with this, it’s no better than any other Choice Specs user.

    The Calm Minder is a weak choice for one. Its special defence is already high so being able to buff it up a bit doesn’t make a big difference. Most Calm Minders ideally are able to take a lot of hits on the physical side, but your average Stone Edge is an OHKO on even a very defensive Ho-oh (see damage calcs at the bottom of post). In addition, Ho-oh just can’t function like other Calm Minders – if it opts to go for Roost/Recover, status effects like Toxic totally shut it down; if it opts to go for Rest instead, horrible things will follow after it (Stealth Rock + Roar, Stone Edge, Psych Up, etc.); if it opts to go for a mono-attacking sleep talker, it is easily walled. Unlike Water, Fire is never a good type to mono with thanks to Pokémon like Heatran being able to render it totally pointless. I don’t think I need to go on any further with this, either – Calm Mind Ho-oh would probably not break the metagame.

    Next I come onto a set I have been wanting to talk about ever since my last match: Mix-Ho-oh. It is easily walled if it goes physical, and special ones are fairly easy to deal with too, so going half way between them looks, as kd24 suggested, to be its most broken option in the OU environment. I’ll start with the option of a mixed Choice Scarfer – it gets some revenge and surprise kills, sure, but it’s fairly easy to predict and does hardly any damage to any good mixed wall. People would not stop using Heatran, despite its smaller movepool, because it is so much more reliable. It takes 44% less from Stealth Rock and it can explode on problem Pokémon. Onto the Life orb set… when it was brought up last night, I could only think up two counters to Sacred Fire / Earthquake / Thunderbolt / Ancientpower, Hariyama and Swampert, so I remember somebody saying “so every team is going to need one of those two now?” Well, no, not at all. In the battle I had last night I was switching a lot depending on what move I predicted it would use next, not realising that the whole time I already had two counters to it on my team. Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes piled up on me and by the time Ho-oh fell my team was incredibly weak. But I could have done so much better: Umbreon and Hariyama were already on my team. Hariyama took only 37%-ish from a Thunderbolt and went on to Whirlwind it out, and I never even considered Umbreon. But Umbreon is a fantastic counter to that set, being able to drop Toxic poison on it and Stall it to death with Wish and Protect. There are far more than two counters to this set, and I will list a few.

    Thunderbolt is clearly there to deal with Bulky Waters, but it needs a SpA boosting nature and 252 EVs to actually win on that front. Standard Vaporeon, for example, takes 62-72% damage from a Life Orb Ho-oh’s Thunderbolt, but by switching to a Calm nature and giving its Defence EVs to Special Defence instead, it now only takes 44.42% - 52.23%, so it can easily win with the combination of Toxic, Wish and Protect, despite actually having a weakness to one of the key moves. A specially defensive Milotic isn’t 2HKO’d either and can also stall it effectively, so even Bulky Waters can outstall it, despite T-bolt weakness. When Sandstorm is running, a hundred new counters suddenly appear: Rhyperior walls this Ho-oh even better than CBHo-oh and can deal with it in the same way (ss is just extra help), Swampert again is a great choice, Regirock takes pathetic damage from it, S-stormShuckle takes barely any damage even from Ancientpower and can stall well with Toxic (takes some damage from Sacred Fire so maybe not the best counter), Cresselia takes nothing at all and gets set-up back with Charge Beam and Calm Mind, Cradily walls it in Sandstorm, Salamence can switch into anything but Ancientpower and outspeed / OHKO with Stone Edge… there’s plenty of counters all over the place. Speaking of Salamence, its 135 / 110 / 100 (speed) offensive stats are better than Ho-oh’s (130 / 110 / 90), and its superior movepool choices and STAB on the near-unresisted Dragon type make it a far superior mixed attacker, even with much smaller defenses. Putting Roost on that Ho-oh’s set deals with the residual damage issue but makes it easy to wall and doesn’t do anything about Toxic. So, that’s another set that’s perfectly counterable… and one of the biggest opposing arguments sunk.

    Ho-oh’s 106 / 154 defences on the special side certainly look very appealing, but Ho-oh could never be a Special Wall. With weaknesses to Water and Electric, most bulky Pokémon of one those types that can stat up will still overpower Ho-oh eventually. Almost everybody who would want to be walling special attacks would choose something like Snorlax or Blissey over Ho-oh, especially when Snorlax can actually take physical hits well too after a couple of Curses. Sure, Ho-oh does have pretty impressive Defence too (base 90), but this makes it little more than a mixed wall, which there are many. Considering how killable it could be with 4x Rock weakness, one unique thing it has going for it is that it can actually hit back quite effectively, especially when it has Sacred Fire and its decent chance to cut a physical attacker’s strength in half. However, relying on Sacred Fire to deal with your physical threats is not at all reliable, just as relying on Sing to disable your opponents will frequently backfire. The problem with Ho-oh as a wall is that though it can keep some threats in check, getting support options instead of attacking options makes Ho-oh very easy to wall. The combination of Sacred Fire and Earthquake or Sacred Fire and Thunderbolt would be an invitation for a lot of horrible things to come in and set up, even if your fourth move was Whirlwind. As a wall, Ho-oh isn’t broken in the slightest, and I should hope you all agree.

    If you still think its defences on the physical side could make it a good physical wall despite them being significantly lower than those on the other side, just take a look at Ho-oh’s twin, Moltres. Ho-oh has 106 / 90 there, and Moltres has 90 / 90; Ho-oh has a 100 BP move coming off 130 base attack to hit back at things with, and Moltres has a 120 BP move coming off 125 base special attack to hit back at things with. Ho-oh will not be taking anyone’s place as a physical wall if Moltres can’t.

    Taking a different stance, if Ho-oh did somehow start to do well as a wall (or: tank), it would actually not only be fine in the metagame in the sense that it isn’t broken, but it could potentially bring benefits. It could wall common threats in Scizor, Skymin and Heatran (but only hit the latter back if it had Earthquake), for a start, and I’m sure people would find many other benefits to using it. Another potential threat that a wall version of Ho-oh could handle very well would be, interestingly enough, any offensive Ho-oh. An opposing Ho-oh’s Thunderbolt would do pathetic little damage to it, and Ho-oh would be able to hit it with Toxic, a move that can be used with wonderful effect to doom 90% of Ho-ohs to die very quickly.

    The most broken set I can think of, really, is a tank that would fit well onto a Stall team (feel free to disagree). I think a Ho-oh running Subsitute, Roost, Sacred Fire and Toxic or Whirlwind could be very effective, but aside from shuffling things around and having a good chance to burn physical attackers with a powerful move from behind a substitute, it isn’t really broken. At least a stall team would give it adequate Rapid Spin or possibly Heal Bell support to help it out. Personally, I would play it safe and not even try to have one on a stall team. A Ho-oh moving to OU would probably be more overhyped than Rhyperior and Skymin were, I think, and I’m sure many people would be hit by a huge disappointment.

    One rather obscure thing that puts Ho-oh at huge risk is your generic Rain Dance team. Perhaps these may be more common in the Uber environment (where poor Ho-oh is never even touched anymore), but even with its mammoth of a special defense stat it can’t take the Surfs from some of these UU-bound Swift Swimmers. Omastar (as an example) running under the rain can come in and 2HKO [61.06% minimum] – this is Max HP / Max Sp. Def Ho-oh, a variant that will never be seen. The more common Max HP variant, when not running Calm/Careful, loses 99% min. to Hydro Pump – this will basically be an OHKO every time you see it happen, unless you’re extremely unlucky.

    Needless to say, Choice Specs Omastar ruins Ho-oh, as do most other swift swimmers. All Ho-oh can do to hit back is use Thunderbolt (or Earthquake on Oma/Kabutops, but with the EVs needed to survive a hit from one of these two [note: it wouldn’t survive any hits from Kabutops with its poorer Defense stat anyway], it probably wouldn’t OHKO back.). Some of the more specially bulky Swift Swimmers could probably take a Thunderbolt too. Kingdra could take a hit from just about any move, set up its Rain Dance and OHKO back. Ludicolo would wall nearly every Ho-oh, especially with Rain Dance weakening Fire-type moves, and set up Rain Dance, Leech Seed, or Surf it to death. Rain Dancers are an obvious counter, so I’ll move on now.

    To those of you who still think this would break apart OU, I would be extremely interested to see a set that you think could singlehandedly turn the metagame for the worse. I hope that many of you will agree with me now when I say that it wouldn’t hurt to give this thing a shot on the suspect ladder, even if for only about a week, just to see whether it really would cause a lot of harm or not. In time, I think its flaws (or, if you prefer, its singular flaw: that huge rock weakness) would undermine it as I have said and it would probably not even be one of the high OUs; just look at Articuno, its stats are about as alien in UU as Ho-oh’s are in OU and it’s still not used that much. Before we go testing out and banning Skymin, let’s give this Pokémon a shot as a fresh new counter for it. I really think this is something that we could get sorted out pretty quickly, so I’d be interested to hear the views of anybody who still thinks it should stay banned (but really, it at least deserves a test, right?).



    Damage Calcs
    Versus max/max Ho-oh (which will probably never be seen aside from Calm Minders, in which case most of these get in free on nearly every move that isn’t going to hit them for SE damage – on average, 3 out of the 4 moves on its moveset)
    Jolly CB Aerodactyl Rock Slide: 119.47% - 140.63%
    Jolly Aerodactyl Stone Edge: 106.49% - 125.24%
    Adamant CBHera Stone Edge: 130.53% - 153.61% [Jolly still OHKOs, obviously]
    Adamant ScarfHera Stone Edge: 87.50% - 103.13% [OHKO with only a tiny bit of residual damage. Easy OHKO on all standard Ho-ohs.]
    Jolly ScarfHera versus Max HP / Min Def Ho-oh: 112.50% - 132.45% (probably would be common EV spread but most of the spreads on the analysis actually run min/min)
    I’m not going to continue this. Basically, even things that are weak to Fire can come in on many moves and KO in one hit with Stone Edge. Lucario, Tauros, Infernape – Hell, even Entei. Anything moderately fast with Stone Edge can come in on most Ho-oh provided they switch into the right move and either OHKO it or bring its HP down to an absolute minimum. This is yet another thing that makes it inferior to other Calm Minders, especially Suicune, who can run about with 6 Calm Minds and not have to worry that some physical attacker with the ever-common Stone Edge will switch in and still take it out anyway.

    Thanks for reading, and I’m sorry if I made that too long. On most forums I’m more of a one-line poster, but I knew nobody would listen to me unless I went pretty deep with this. If this was a tl;dr for you and you skipped to the bottom, the idea is that, in short, just about every set Ho-oh can run can be countered quite easily in OU, and so it probably wouldn’t hurt it to be tested as an OU itself.

    EDIT: Since starting this thread more things have popped up that I should add onto the first post so they are easier to see. Ho-oh is literally walled by about 25% of Standard's common walls. A 252 Hp / 252 Def defensive spread could not even 2HKO a Blissey with Sacred Fire. Sacred Fire only has 8PP so it's usually going to be gone before it causes too much harm. The combination of weaknesses to common attacks, being walled or countered by an extensive list of common foes and having a huge weakness to Stealth Rock do, in my opinion, completely undermine its high stats. I really think this should be OU.

    EDIT2: I hate to repeat myself. A lot of the common arguments against Ho-oh being moved down are responded to in http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1534896&postcount=84 that post. Let's keep this argument full of only fresh information that hasn't already been responded to, it's the only way we could ever get this cleaned up.
  2. Pan.

    Pan.

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    Well, i always asked myself, what hooh was doing in the Uber tier - the passive damage from the more than common stealth rocks was more than obvious - and the speed makes it even slower than other OU-pokemon like mence or gengar etc. So i wouldnt make a big discussion and try to put hooh in the ou-tier - we aint losing much - the arguments were really clear to me - the OU metagame has so many different pokemon to counter stuff =)

    Greetz
  3. Raverist

    Raverist

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    Holy shit...and here was me thinking that this would be trou entry...but you have a slight thing to remember: Ho-oh has base 130 Attack and a physical fire STAB that burns half the time.
  4. MetaNite

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    You barely talk of his 150 SpD. In combinations with his monstrous attack, he's godly. He's has no business with Rhyperior, though HP Grass is always an option.

    Stealth rock is easily blown away... takes special hits like a pro, especially with the only sometimes seen special rock attack being Power Gem.

    Pair him with Rapid Spin Donphan or something, and you're in business.
  5. Jetx

    Jetx

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    If Ho-oh has HP Grass, it's limited its options for taking out other pokémon. It's the same for most pokémon. The thing about that 150 SpD is that it's probably much easier than you'd think to get around. Rock moves and Calm Minders and other things.

    Rapid Spin needs a free turn and a lack of ghosts to work. Free turns are hard to find and Gengar is everywhere.

    EDIT: Okay, enough posts about Sacred Fire suddenly turning this into an Uber. It's only got a 50% chance of doing what everybody fears it doing, and that can easily be dealt with by switching into something that doesn't mind a burn and doesn't fear Ho-oh's attack. Water type.
  6. C. Falcon

    C. Falcon

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    Once SR is down you can easily see why he is Uber.

    394 Max Attack with a 120 BP Move with STAB and 50% chance to burn pretty much requiring you use a Flash Fire pokemon/Special Sweepers who don't do much due to Ho-Ohs massive Special Defence.
  7. HotPocket

    HotPocket

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    I didn't finish reading your argument, too lazy -_-

    There is definitely a reason why its uber, I am just not so good at that stuff... (although, with these arguments, I believe at the very least a test is in order)


    One thing I did notice though is that most SR are set up now-a-days by Suicide Leads meaning a Rapid Spinner takes them down and they won't normally come back up, so Ho-Oh can really do some damage after that.
  8. Jetx

    Jetx

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    Incorrect. Sacred Fire is 100 BP and 95 Accuracy, more comparable to a very haxy Flamethrower than a Fire Blast. Ho-oh isn't just going to sit there throwing out Sacred Fire until your whole team has died of Burn. The second Ho-oh uses any move other than Sacred Fire, quite a lengthy number of physical attackers are invited in to OHKO. Oh, and Ho-oh isn't much more than a tank. It burns things and hits fairly hard, but there'll be something on most teams that can beat it.

    @HotPocket: Then maybe the trend of suicide leads will finally die down. You can combine Ho-oh with Donphan if you like, but Donphan can't heal and Donphan is inviting more Water types to screw you over. So then you'd need a Wish passer Vaporeon... your average Ho-oh team is going to be pretty centred around it.
  9. Fiskebollen

    Fiskebollen

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    Excellent post Jetx.

    I've never given much thought to Ho-oh's placement, but you make a strong argument for trying it in OU, imo.

    Fire/Flying isn't a very good defensive typing and though Ho-oh's defences are most impressive, it's not going to outclass Blissey anytime soon. A max/max+ Ho-oh still takes 32% minimum from specs Glaceon's ice beam, which is much the same as a most Blisseys take on average (and a guaranteed 2hko with SR, meaning Ho-oh must recover or attack - and with that spread, I'm pretty sure only Sacred Fire KO's Glaceon even with SR... free switch anyone?). The rainbow bird has some useful resistances, but it also has a lot of weaknesses that can be exploited (unlike Blissey and Snorlax). Being immune to ground and resistant to fighting is a huge plus, of course...

    As for Ho-oh's offenses, Salamence is - as mentioned - a more deadly sweeper, by far. Sacred Fire's burn rate, though very high, pales compared to Seed Flare's -2 sdef rate. Skymin is still (currently) OU. The latter is also very fast, whereas Ho-oh is a bit meh in that departement.

    I'm not convinced Ho-oh should be OU, though I'm certainly open for it being tested and if the critics aren't more creative than "it has sacred fire, it's OU", then I see no reason not to.
  10. Pan.

    Pan.

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    I think, that the suicide leads aint more than a one-hit-wonder/supporter.

    Once they're gone, you lose a pokemon for nothing - so i prefere the bulky pokemon, which can lay Rocks more than once, like Swampert, Hippowdon, Bliss and so on.
  11. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    mm.. you make some good points, but neglect some opposing arguments almost entirely.
    Like the fact that its not just a sweeper or a wall but a very, very bulky tank with a strong STAB move that burns half he time, and that taking 61% from a Super Effective STAB Specs attack that has been boosted by rain is... incredible.

    I doubt it would be "OMG instant victory!" powerful, but I still think it would overcentralise OU around it and the few things that can force it out.

    To be convinced of the need for a test I would like to see quite a few logs of Ho-oh (used well by a very good player) being beaten without massive problems, and some to see how it sweeps.

    I hope this remains open, its something that should be discussed.
    Everyone be careful what you say, don't be stupid and spamy (not implying that people have been yet).
    The mods are watching... always watching...
  12. IcyMan28

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    Despite the Stealth Rock weakness, Ho-oh has the offenses to dish out damage hard, the Sp.Def and HP to take a few hits, and Roost to get rid of damage. Base 90 speed is by no means slow in OU. Choice Band STAB Sacred Fire will rip through everything and then some. It gets great coverage by combining that with Earthquake alone, and can add a special move in if needed to eliminate anything else that resists it.

    With Garchomp, you knew that whatever you sent into it had no choice but to die. The situation is no different with Ho-oh, because everything that has a chance at countering it can be crippled by its other moves, and still fails to do much damage back to it.
  13. Kristoph

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    in any case I personally would be interested to see Ho-oh tested, especially if, say, Manaphy were allowed in OU. Which is really one of the reasons why I would have loved to see the Suspect Tests just include all of the suspects at the same time right off the bat, but that's another story.

    Generally I'm not sure why people are apparently so incredibly scared of Ho-oh completely breaking the metagame or whatever; I don't see it as something that will be raping teams left and right, although yes, I could see it eventually overcentralizing the metagame (but in my mind that requires testing).


    A pokemon that has as hard a time switching in as Ho-oh probably will should be doing a whole lot of really fast damage, but I just don't see Ho-oh doing that. But in any case, this situation will probably be a lot clearer once we've decided what we're doing with the Latis and Manaphy.
  14. Jetx

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    It would be higher with Specs, that's just what it is with no item. Bear in mind that this is an insanely bulky 252 HP / 252 Sp. Def spread, and a spread like that would probably be very open to physical attackers, along with not having any EVs in the offensive area. Ho-oh's special defences are worse than Snorlax's, and it's well known that Snorlax can't beat all special attackers - Snorlax is immune to Shadow Balls and resists Flamethrower and Ice Beam, and Ho-oh is weak to T-bolt and Surf. It's significantly worse at taking special hits.

    @IcyMan: CB Ho-oh is stopped by a generic bulky water. Thunderbolt with no special attack EVs will do nothing. I covered a lot of things that can handle a mixed Ho-oh.
  15. chenman333

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    Ho-oh probably has the right stuff to make a beastly staller. It learns Substitute+Roost for that excellant combo that even Moltres, Articuno, and Zapdos can pull off, and can do Reflect+Sacred Fire to reduce the attack stat to a quarter of the original. Put that with a respectable Defense, huge SpD, and meaty HP and you have a possibly rigged pressure-staller. Rock slide would become so much more necessary for the extra PP, since Stone Edge would be gone after just 4 or less.
  16. Mekkah

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    I think the main argument in the past that Ho-oh would remain uber (or not become a Suspect, in today's terms) was that it overcentralizes the game towards Stealth Rock. If Stealth Rock ever is banned, I really cannot see Ho-oh coming down anywhere. You have to realize that between Sacred Fire's burn and 106 HP/144 SpDef, taking this bird down is no joke. Especially taking his offense and Recover into account.

    I've always been open-minded about the thing though, and I think it's more likely to move down than most other ubers not suspects already...though it's not saying much.
  17. Banana292

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    You mention Rain Dance teams. I wonder if moving Ho-oh down to OU would provoke people to use Sunny Day teams. I wouldn't want to be facing a Ho-oh with Sun-Boosted Sacred Fire. Also, Sun-Lowered Surfs would do nothing to its amazing Sp.Def stat.

    That'd be an interesting change to OU.
  18. Jetx

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    I see where you (or they) are coming from, but Stealth Rock is already everywhere and Ho-oh wouldn't change that for the worse. I mean, sure, if Stealth Rock was banned Ho-oh would probably find itself back in Ubers, but Stealth Rock isn't banned. Besides, I think all the Ho-oh users would get sick of that 50% health loss and all the support that is required to prevent it pretty fast, and something makes me doubt Ho-oh would even be used that much after a while.

    Yeah, a lot of things would find it very hard to take Ho-oh down. But most defensive water types with Toxic can beat these without even needing to attack directly, and things like CM Suicune could still set up on stally sets. It could present problems for a fair few sweepers, but so could any wall.

    on an unrelated note, Ho-oh and most rapid spinners combine together for a defensive duo that DDKingdra is switching in on over and over again. Mixed Rain Dance sets even get to run off Hydro Pump if Ho-oh scores a lucky burn. Gyara is actually pretty similar and has 2 moves to ohko Ho-oh after a DD, despite weakness to Thunderbolt.

    @Banana, yeah, some people would probably give Sunny Day teams a go, but that does nothing but add a little more diversity to the metagame. Sunny Day teams still have all the problems they had before.
  19. Urza

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    props for a well posted argument. i think maybe one day, if the metagame ever truly settles down beyond the normal wax and wane of offensive versus defensive play (which it won't, unless nintendo stops making pokemon games), then maybe ho-oh can get tested. however, even with stealth rock, the 50% chance of burn, coupled with amazing defensive stats just makes it too monstrous. i think that this could potentially special attacking as a whole, and make the game more physically and specially defensive than anyone wants. it would definitely be an overcentralizing threat...
  20. Stagnant

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    I kind of like to picture... Ho-Ho is to OU as Articuno is to UU. However, this not a very good arguement either way. Just how I see it.
  21. Kristoph

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    "Centralized around Stealth Rock" isn't such a scary concept to me considering that Stealth Rock is already super popular, but also because there are so many pokemon capable of using the move. It's not like we have like 3 or 4 token Stealth Rockers that we would have to rely upon or anything.
  22. Jetx

    Jetx

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    Let's not forget that Ho-oh is yet another defensive pokémon that can be crippled by the abundance of Trick users; you'd think it was a great switch into Metagross, but things aren't that perfect for it.
  23. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    Being "significantly worse at taking special hits." than Snorlax, probably the second best special wall in the game, does not inspire much confidence. Better things to compare it to would be Tyranitar in SS or other bulky sweepers.

    Snorlax does not have ANYWHERE NEAR the offensive power behind it that Ho-oh does (and a much worse STAB, and their movepools... well yea..), so is a poor comparison.
  24. Jetx

    Jetx

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    Nowhere near the offensive power? o_O
    Snorlax has base 110 attack and Ho-oh has base 130 attack, not a huge difference. Snorlax can patch up its low defence with Curse, whereas Ho-oh has to rely on burn from Sacred Fire. Snorlax can actually sweep well with Curse, but Calm Mind Ho-oh is awful. - Speaking of Snorlax, he's another great Ho-oh counter. Can Rest off an Burns, takes nothing from any of Ho-oh's moves, and sets up on it.

    At the moment people seem to be concerned that Ho-oh is hard to kill and it has a damn good signature move. But really, is being hard to kill and being able to burn a lot of things whilst hitting moderately hard (and it will only be moderately hard if you use a defensive EV spread) with your Fire attack enough to get you banned from standard play? Sacred Fire only has 8PP. Burns will be achieved 4 times on average, and things like Suicune swallow that up with Pressure, so even this godly move Sacred Fire can only keep going for so long.

    Almost every time it runs any moveset other than those pretty mediocre offensive sets (in other words, a tanky/wall-ish kind of set), it will probably run out of Sacred Fire PP before it causes too much harm.
  25. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    110 attack is all well and good (still quite different from 130), but Normal is not a very good type to have STAB on and its movepool leaves much to be desired. STAB fire on the other hand is great, and it has a very nice signature move (Not saying this is the only, or main reason I think its too strong), it also has a few other useful sweeping moves. Ho-oh can also attack from the special side (same base as Mence) while lax can't really (baring Fire Blast to take out Forry/Skarm).

    And then there's the 90 Vs 30 base speed issue.
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