Ho-oh – Is it truly an Uber?

[Kietharr]

STAB 130 base attack Aerial Ace.

Sorry, that pretty much shits over any idea of Hariyama countering this. Stop mentioning him.

 

[Darth Meanie]

SNIP

What on earth are you going to do if and when Ho-oh is on the field?

That's my concern as well, I think that Ho-Oh can do incredible damage before its set is known, but when it is, it is not as threatening.

My concern is whether you can use that incredibly destabilizing moment of bringing Ho-Oh in after losing a pokemon to the point of it being broken or not.

I think that that can only be addressed through playtesting, theorymoned counters and sets mean little, especially when talking about introducing a Pokemon that will play like no other one in OU yet.

Edit: Aerial Ace is one less moveslot though. I think while it takes out a counter, it doesn't give it coverage. It does hint of the potential Anti-Anti-Ho-Oh Ho-Oh. Some Giga Drain Tbolt Aerial Ace HP Ice to screw everyone over. But I'm Theorymoning now, which I just attacked.

 

[umbarsc]

Uh, why would Ho-oh use Aerial Ace? Thunderbolt/Earthquake/Sacred Fire/Roost is probably what the standard would be. There's more important moves than a low BP move that only hits Hariyama.

 

[Darth Meanie]

I think people are exaggerating the effect of burn. Will-o-Wisp already exists, with greater burn chance, and isn't used that often even only on the pokemon that have it. Granted, Will-o-Wisp isn't a 100 BP attack, but if the burn was that dangerous, it would be used more than it already is.

Sacred Fire has an effectively less than 50% burn rate with its less than 100% base accuracy, and although no one likes burn (except Heatran/Milotic, and who would put Heatran in there?), toxic would be more debilitating in the pokemon that would be switching in. Sure, Swampert loses attacking power, but he usually packs special moves as well as physical. A Ho-Oh countering Swampert would probably pack Roar anyways, so for that moment at least, burn isn't that effective. Rhyperior, as demonstrated, can already pack a OHKO Stone Edge after a burn without Stealth Rock.

Yes, Burn opens the door for other pokemon, but its not any different than Twave openning up for Togekiss.

Ho-Oh can, as best as I can see without playtesting, best case scenario in metagame playing circumstances, will switch in, take 50%, get a KO, burn and damage the counter/revenge killer, and die, and give momentum to the Ho-Oh user.

This is assuming that you outpredict your opponent and that Sacred Fire scores a burn and that the match up is good. I cannot say whether or not it will be a destabalizing pokemon in the metagame.

 

[McGrrr]

Granted, Will-o-Wisp isn't a 100 BP attack

Mhm.

Will-o-wisp is 75% accurate and you are never letting a physical attacker get burned by anything likely to use it. The difference is that sacred fire is hitting many physical Pokemon on the switch and therefore has the opportunity to cripple them, whereas you will switch e.g. Rhyperior out of will-o-wisp. Moreover, Heracross can abuse one but not the other and that makes a big difference.

 

[cim]

Guys, Hariyama is not a counter for one simple reason: It can't run Thick Fat and Guts at the same time! I don't even get why he's even CONSIDERED a counter by anyone. If he's Burnt, he'll have trouble KOing Ho-oh with Thick Fat. If no Thick Fat, easy 2HKO.

Hariyama is not a liability on a team as only a Ho-oh counter (which it almost never is), because it is better than anything at handling threats like Tyranitar and Weavile. Knock Off and Whirlwind access allow it to be a viable supporter on a team. Not necessarily "an overspecific counter that just kills ho-oh and dies". He's also not outclassed, he has a very unique niche.

I'm surprised no one addressed this point right here.

McGraw is basically more elegantly saying what my argument would have been if I had time to write it.

Sacred Fire has an effectively less than 50% burn rate with its less than 100% base accuracy, and although no one likes burn (except Heatran/Milotic, and who would put Heatran in there?), toxic would be more debilitating in the pokemon that would be switching in. Sure, Swampert loses attacking power, but he usually packs special moves as well as physical.

Except those Special moves will never 2HKO Ho-oh.

Rhyperior, as demonstrated, can already pack a OHKO Stone Edge after a burn without Stealth Rock.

Not if you Roost. Hey, wow, that's even better than I thought it would be as a strategy, since on the first Roost you negate SR damage BEFORE taking the Stone Edge. Which only has 4 PP and might miss.

 

[chaos 9]

Ok guys, just because there is no one poke that can totally wall all Ho-oh's sets, does not make it uber. Try walling all mences sets with one poke. You can't. Is it uber? No.

I would like to see the Ho-oh user get by a team with stealth rock (standard) a ghost (to block spin, also standard) and suicune. This team would most likely pack somthing to absorb T-bolts as well. This would make Ho-oh totally useless and thats not even using some of its counters that most would call "overcentralizing" such as rhyperior, which btw, is a very solid counter. That said, Ho-oh will never get by this combo:

Suicune@leftovers
252hp 200 def 56 sp. def
Bold
Toxic
Surf
Calm mind
Ice beam/substitute

and

Rhyperior@Choice Band
252 hp 252 atk 4 def
Adamant
Stone Edge/Rock Slide
Earthquake
Mega Horn
Avalanch

With stealth rock support, that is one of the many combos that walls Ho-oh un-conditionally.

 

[McGrrr]

You're missing the point. Neither Suicune nor Rhyperior enjoys the 50% burn chance from switching in (something significantly out of your control that disrupts the fragile skill/luck balance of competitive battling). That is what makes Ho-oh uber, regardless of whether it is wall-able or not. It can cripple anything that tries to switch in, based on luck alone, and create a weakness in an opposing team that something else can exploit.

Without sacred fire, Ho-oh is merely a more versatile Moltres; but with sacred fire, it is monstrous. It is a huge deterrent to physical Pokemon, and special attackers are not scoring OHKOs through that ridiculous special defense. +Speed/life orb could be the way to go or just leftovers is fine to ensure two switch ins with SR + sandstream up; something like sacred fire/earthquake/thunderbolt/hpice.

With scarf/band I am probably always using earthquake first up for Heatran switches etc. and because not one flying nor levitate Pokemon is surviving sacred fire/willing to risk a coin toss for burn (except bulky rest/talkers). After that, I can just spam sacred fire; it's powerful enough to kill a whole bunch of stuff, and if not, a critical burn could win the match.

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Is it just me or does this a lot like the seed flare argument for Skymin? How many special defense drops does seed flare actually get you? (not that many for me, actually).

And please stop pretending that roost makes it all better because all of a sudden Stone Edge is only 2x effective now. Has anyone actually done the calcs?

252/252 HP/Def Impish Roosting Ho-Oh vs. 252Atk Adamant Rhyperior using Stone Edge: 70.3% - 83.3%. Maybe you guys forgot Ho-Oh only has 90 base Def idk. And roosting against someone who can predict only half-decently opens you up to earthquake, which is 100% accurate which Rhyperior also has STAB on.

Also, since people like to cry about accuracy and PP, Rock Slide does a minimum 53% to the same roosting Ho-Oh, just enough for a 2HKO. Please keep in mind that that's it for Ho-Oh as far as physical bulk and no one is going to actually run that spread as it detracts from too much.

Here's another calc since we're all so worried about it burning bulky waters.
252 Atk Adamant Life-Orb Ho-Oh using Sacred Fire on 252 HP/ Def Suicune: 19% - 22.3%. That can't break a sub, protecting you from the burn, while burning 2 PP. Also, even Choice Band only does 25.7% MAX, and if you run band, you can't roost off rocks.

Now, Thunderbolt. 0 Sp. Atk Ho-Oh vs. 252 HP/0 Sp.Def: 33.1% - 39%
After a Calm Mind: 22.3% - 26.3%. Also, Suicune carries rest which all but nullifies burn anyway.

Now, with that being said, there are definitely upsides to it, most noticeably being Sacred Fire. 47.5% burn is definitely a beast, but I can't see a move with a side effect that occurs less than 50% of the time as a main reason for the pokemon with this move to remain uber.

The monster base 154 Sp. Def and 106 HP with 130 Atk and 110 Sp. Atk come to mind, because let's be clear for a minute: Ho-Oh is a base 680 with a 50% recovery move. This isn't a Lati or Speed Deoxys we're talking about here, this is a pokemon with base 110 or better in three significant stats. This is not something you want your team of beaten down pokes to be staring at mid-game, because Sacred Fire/Thunderbolt/Earthquake does destroy a lot, and the game probably would center around Ho-Oh, Suicune, and Rhyperior, just like now how it centers around Scizor, Skymin, Heatran, and Salamence.


However, one aspect of switching in thing that ppl seem to overlook when talking about Ho-Oh is the actual roost turn. The FIRST thing Ho-Oh has to do when getting in on Stealth Rock is roost. This is essentially a lag in a turn for you. If I switch to Tyranitar while you roost all of a sudden your full health turkey is staring down my full health dinosaur. How lucky confident do you really feel in that 47.5% burn rate?

Not that it matters anyway, because even burned, 252 Atk Adamant Choice Band Burned Tyranitar does 103.2% minimum to Max/Max Impish Ho-Oh.

Also, please bare in mind that every time Ho-Oh is forced out is a turn that you have to lag to roost, only to be forced out again, and with the amount of viable ghosts that we have now (especially with the new rotom forms), once you show Ho-Oh, those rocks aren't going down.

However, all this says more about Stealth Rock than Ho-Oh honestly, though I personally wouldn't like Ho-Oh in OU as much fun as it would be for all of the first two days, because it would facilitate the need of Stealth Rock in the metagame, and I'm personally looking forward to playing Suspect without it.

 

[McGrrr]

Is it just me or does this a lot like the seed flare argument for Skymin? How many special defense drops does seed flare actually get you? (not that many for me, actually).

Fire is a better type than grass for a start, and burn is permanent unless you have natural cure. So no, I disagree here, and anecdotal evidence for "the side effect does not happen that much for me" does not hold up. The effect rate is fact, and constant over the long run.

The FIRST thing Ho-Oh has to do when getting in on Stealth Rock is roost. This is essentially a lag in a turn for you.

Absolutely not. Roosting here and giving your opponent a free switch achieves nothing. This assumption is absurd. If you are to use Ho-oh effectively, you should be looking to get it into play before stealth rock, because after the rocks are down, it becomes a suicide Pokemon. I am attacking in this scenario 100%. Actually, I would probably not even bother with a recovery attack in the first place as it wastes a slot.

Forcing Suicune to rest turns it into a liability (it's like forcing Regice to rest back in the 200 metagame). That could be all the edge that a skilled battler needs to win. Ho-oh is not going to try and square off against a Suicune anyway. It is getting burned on the switch if anything.

Edit: I think the only thing this thread has established is the difference in thinking between an average battler and the better battler (or if you prefer; the difference between the "how do I avoid losing" and the "how do I win" mentalities). Honestly, I fail to understand how you people can believe that sacred fire Ho-oh would not be ridiculous in OU. If it was demoted, I would jump at the opportunity to abuse it. The bottom line is that in the hands of a capable battler, Ho-oh will win significantly more battles due to its strengths than it will lose due to its weaknesses.

 

[1059860]

Is it just me or does this a lot like the seed flare argument for Skymin? How many special defense drops does seed flare actually get you? (not that many for me, actually).

And please stop pretending that roost makes it all better because all of a sudden Stone Edge is only 2x effective now. Has anyone actually done the calcs?

252/252 HP/Def Impish Roosting Ho-Oh vs. 252Atk Adamant Rhyperior using Stone Edge: 70.3% - 83.3%. Maybe you guys forgot Ho-Oh only has 90 base Def idk. And roosting against someone who can predict only half-decently opens you up to earthquake, which is 100% accurate which Rhyperior also has STAB on.

Also, since people like to cry about accuracy and PP, Rock Slide does a minimum 53% to the same roosting Ho-Oh, just enough for a 2HKO. Please keep in mind that that's it for Ho-Oh as far as physical bulk and no one is going to actually run that spread as it detracts from too much.

Here's another calc since we're all so worried about it burning bulky waters.
252 Atk Adamant Life-Orb Ho-Oh using Sacred Fire on 252 HP/ Def Suicune: 19% - 22.3%. That can't break a sub, protecting you from the burn, while burning 2 PP. Also, even Choice Band only does 25.7% MAX, and if you run band, you can't roost off rocks.

Now, Thunderbolt. 0 Sp. Atk Ho-Oh vs. 252 HP/0 Sp.Def: 33.1% - 39%
After a Calm Mind: 22.3% - 26.3%. Also, Suicune carries rest which all but nullifies burn anyway.

Now, with that being said, there are definitely upsides to it, most noticeably being Sacred Fire. 47.5% burn is definitely a beast, but I can't see a move with a side effect that occurs less than 50% of the time as a main reason for the pokemon with this move to remain uber.

The monster base 154 Sp. Def and 106 HP with 130 Atk and 110 Sp. Atk come to mind, because let's be clear for a minute: Ho-Oh is a base 680 with a 50% recovery move. This isn't a Lati or Speed Deoxys we're talking about here, this is a pokemon with base 110 or better in three significant stats. This is not something you want your team of beaten down pokes to be staring at mid-game, because Sacred Fire/Thunderbolt/Earthquake does destroy a lot, and the game probably would center around Ho-Oh, Suicune, and Rhyperior, just like now how it centers around Scizor, Skymin, Heatran, and Salamence.


However, one aspect of switching in thing that ppl seem to overlook when talking about Ho-Oh is the actual roost turn. The FIRST thing Ho-Oh has to do when getting in on Stealth Rock is roost. This is essentially a lag in a turn for you. If I switch to Tyranitar while you roost all of a sudden your full health turkey is staring down my full health dinosaur. How lucky confident do you really feel in that 47.5% burn rate?

Not that it matters anyway, because even burned, 252 Atk Adamant Choice Band Burned Tyranitar does 103.2% minimum to Max/Max Impish Ho-Oh.

Also, please bare in mind that every time Ho-Oh is forced out is a turn that you have to lag to roost, only to be forced out again, and with the amount of viable ghosts that we have now (especially with the new rotom forms), once you show Ho-Oh, those rocks aren't going down.

However, all this says more about Stealth Rock than Ho-Oh honestly, though I personally wouldn't like Ho-Oh in OU as much fun as it would be for all of the first two days, because it would facilitate the need of Stealth Rock in the metagame, and I'm personally looking forward to playing Suspect without it.

How 'bout we don't keep Ho-Oh in? How 'bout I switch in, take 50% Damage. During the turn of you switching in Rhyperior, I roost off damage, and after that, I can still SWITCH OUT to something like Suicune to kill your stupid Rhyperior?

 

[cim]

252 Atk Adamant Rhyperior can't take repeated Earthquakes from Ho-oh. We were running calcs on defensive Impish Rhyperior before. Please don't accuse us of fabricating calculations just because you got a different result...

 

[Imran]

Also, Max Attack Rhyperior probably has the strongest Stone Edge in the Game, and that won't KO. Tyranitars is pretty beastly too. Please not that Stone Edge users such as Heracross stand no chan ce. OK perhaps Scarf Cross can finish it off (I haven't done the calcs, but roost will allow it to stall a lot of things.

 

[Jetx]

Most of the counters you listed, however, can not compete with Sacred Fire/Whirlwind/Safeguard/Roost Ho-oh, though. With SR and Spikes support killing Ho-oh is a pain. You can't status Ho-oh as long as Safeguard is up, and Ho-oh can outstall Rhy's EQs and Stone Edges with Roost if it's burned (unless there's a CH). Whirlwind just runs over potential threats such as Suicune who'd otherwise love to set up on it.

Just think about this for a moment; would a Deoxys lead going into a Ho-oh really be enough to make Ho-oh seem like an Uber? This is a two-part team, and Deoxys is probably the more broken of the two. I did consider how potent a Ho-oh with Safeguard could be, but at the same time I thought it to be horribly limiting. You can Whirlwind a team around all you like, but just about every team runs something with Stone Edge that will eventually come out for free as you Whirlwind it in. Stone Edge Pokémon aren't the only counters, either. That turn where you have to use (or Refresh) Safeguard is a risky waste of a turn where something can switch in for free, or get that extra hit through that Ho-oh would need to Roost to save itself from. This set is "a very good shuffler, complete with ability to burn threats" - and I don't doubt that it is a very good set, but its flaws aren't too hard to exploit. Something like a Shuffler Suicune is good in theory too because it can Stat up and hit switch-ins with very powerful Surfs (whereas Ho-oh hits them with an unboosted 100BP move and hopes to Burn).

I love the set though. But, especially with all the turns recovering, safeguarding and whirlwinding, I think it could easily be exploited. That doesn't hit me as something that makes it deserves Uber status.

Actually, having a HUGE movepool is a strength, not a weakness! Do we say this to the mix-sweepers that run rampant in OU? Infernape, for example, between all the suggested move lists, it lists a combination of 14 moves. Do we say that Infernape is horrible because of the 4 move syndrome? Absolutely not!! We fear it because it can hit very strong from either the physical or special attack damage.

[words]

Yeah, I shouldn't have said that. The versatility isn't a weakness, but neither does it make it Uber. Infernape, in order to run a decent Mixed Sweeper, has to put all its EVs between Attack, Special Attack and Speed. Ho-oh is much like that, except in order to be nice and bulky it needs HP EVs too. In addition, Infernape has better moves to use (Grass Knot and Close Combat, for example), whereas Ho-oh's strongest physical move other than SF is Return, or Earthquake for the option of better coverage. After the first three moves, Sacred Fire, EQ and Thunderbolt, there is no one move that fits into the other slot that can make it uncounterable [or, if you prefer, extremely difficult to deal with]. I would want it stay as an Uber it learnt Brave Bird or Superpower, but only because lots of the counters I've listed in this thread could be massacred by them.

And there are a lot of common threats that fall into the speed area Ho-oh, Lucario, Suicune and Salamence are in. There are even more for Ho-oh, generally, because in most cases it would be more worth having EVs in HP than in something like speed. Lucario would be nowhere near as good without Swords Dance and Extremespeed (and all-out attack sets have better options than Ho-oh does).

You mean you'd need to fit Forretress and Ho-oh on the same team?

Sounds extremely difficult... Don't know how you'll be able to do it.

Ho-oh and Forretress require more support than each other to work together. A lot of limits are on any two-piece strategy involving Ho-oh, so then it branches into a third pokémon being needed, and then a fourth, until you think you have just about everything covered in a six-piece team. And you won't until you do go that far (I'd be interested to see a combination of four or less pokémon that could be near-unbeatable with Ho-oh around).

Long, but I read it. My opinion is that if Ho-Oh were to be moved to OU, every team would have to carry a counter. Yes, Stealth Rock cuts its immense HP in half, but Ho-Oh can still rain fiery death down on a team with no bulky water. Most Pokemon that can OHKO it are slower and are likely to be hit hard in return.

Actually I stopped talking about Bulky Waters quite some time ago, entirely because of Thunderbolt (though they still counter practically every set without it, as long as they have Toxic or some way of boosting their moves).
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1535103&postcount=102
And that post shows plenty of things that aren't Bulky Waters that can wall it too (the mixed set with Thunderbolt, anyway).

Ho-oh's main STAB might "only" be 100 base, but it is SE against all the high defense steel pokemon that populate OU. It does not suffer from outrage lock, megahorn's rubbish coverage or close combat's stat drops.

Practically no Close Combat users fear those Defence drops anyway, as they wouldn't take a hit with or without them. In Heracross' case, it has Megahorn to take out Psychic types and it still hits neutral on a lot just as Fire does. Adamant CBHera does more damage than CBHo-oh, it's just less bulky and not as able to spread status (not that it needs to, its counters are hurt enough by it already). It also runs similar speed to Ho-oh, especially if Ho-oh wants to be bulky and use some HP.

Why does it need to? Is there a checklist for uber that states "must be able to sweep"?

No. But aside from sweeping (and there have been posts in here saying that Ho-oh can "sweep" any team without Stealth Rock), Ho-oh just spreads status, walls some threats with its bulkiness and has 130 base attack to help it do damage, but this is quite overrated if Ho-oh isn't running max attack to back it up.

I think you are underestimating the benefit of 50% burn... only Milotic likes it.

I think you are underestimating the amount of things that aren't bothered by it. Things with Rest, Lum Berry or Fire types, for starters.

Yes, because Ho-oh works alone and it has no support at all... Ho-oh does not have to beat everything to to be broken, and 50% is hardly "hax". Is either dragon happy to switch in with that risk of burn? Lum berry means no leftovers so all damage racks up. I don't see why it can't run HPice instead of AP/GD anyway.

Dragonite normally runs Lum Berry and often has Roost too, and the lack of decent offence coming back at it would still be letting it get it a few DDs before it began to be worried about its remaining HP. Oh, and even if it does run HPIce it still gets countered by a lot of things [see link earlier on in this post], including some new things now that it doesn't have AP or GD.

Damage is almost a secondary concern here. What is stopping a specs Ho-oh running sacred fire? That burn rate is simple too good to pass up.

Choice Ho-oh kinda sucks. If it was really that good I'm pretty sure Pokémon like Houndoom would fly up in usage thanks to being a Flash Fire Pokémon that gets to make its foe useless and get free Nasty Plots as it switches out. That's just one scenario. Would this Ho-oh be running two Fire moves? That still makes it easy to wall. Specs Ho-oh is actually walled by a Blissey even with Sacred Fire.

I absolutely disagree here. If Ho-oh became OU, I would build a team loosely around it and expect to win. I might lead with it, because that becomes an immediate dilemma for my opponent. Or I could lead with taunt Deoxys to delay stealth rock and find a way to bring Ho-oh into a favourable match up. Hell, who even cares about stealth rock? As long as Ho-oh is in play, I just need one good prediction or a lucky burn and I am crippling the opposing team. If you have any skill, Ho-oh is always at least punching a gaping hole that another team member can exploit.

This applies to a huge number of pokémon. Heatran can cripple an opposing team with "clever prediction", like using Earth Power to take out a Heatran switch-in. That's no good argument. And I'm sure you could make a pretty good team based loosely around Ho-oh, is there any reason to state this? You can make a good team based loosely around anything.

Just name a few "counters" that enjoy the 50% burn rate when they try to switch into sacred fire.

Nothing enjoys it, but again, look at that link earlier in the post. Plenty of things don't mind it much. I love the way you put counter in inverted commas, despite the fact that most of them are totally legitimate.

What on earth are you going to do if and when Ho-oh is on the field?

Switch to a counter.

I disagree with any bulky water as a "counter" (are we forgetting that Ho-oh has thunderbolt access too?), because only Milotic likes the burn from sacred fire (actually, name ANY other potential switch that likes burn... maybe rest/talk Rhyperior/Swampert/Cresselia but that is not so much "like" as "tolerates").

Yet again, I find myself having to direct somebody to that link earlier in the posts. Why on earth does it matter if something "tolerates" it instead of "liking it"? Blissey doesn't like switching into Heatran's Fire Blast, but it doesn't have any problem with it.

Will-o-wisp is 75% accurate and you are never letting a physical attacker get burned by anything likely to use it. The difference is that sacred fire is hitting many physical Pokemon on the switch and therefore has the opportunity to cripple them, whereas you will switch e.g. Rhyperior out of will-o-wisp. Moreover, Heracross can abuse one but not the other and that makes a big difference.

So the fact that Guts users aren't counters to Sacred Fire makes it broken? I don't see what you're getting at.

Guys, Hariyama is not a counter for one simple reason: It can't run Thick Fat and Guts at the same time! I don't even get why he's even CONSIDERED a counter by anyone. If he's Burnt, he'll have trouble KOing Ho-oh with Thick Fat. If no Thick Fat, easy 2HKO.

It doesn't need to OHKO it, though it can do that with a Sleep Talked Stone Edge. It just needs to Whirlwind it out, and things aren't as simple as "I'll just switch it straight back in."

Not if you Roost. Hey, wow, that's even better than I thought it would be as a strategy, since on the first Roost you negate SR damage BEFORE taking the Stone Edge. Which only has 4 PP and might miss.

If you Roost up to 100% health when Stone Edge misses, you are in fact setting yourself up for the KO, as Roost is now useless and you're set up for the full 4x damage. In that sense, it makes no difference if it misses.

Without sacred fire, Ho-oh is merely a more versatile Moltres; but with sacred fire, it is monstrous. It is a huge deterrent to physical Pokemon, and special attackers are not scoring OHKOs through that ridiculous special defense. +Speed/life orb could be the way to go or just leftovers is fine to ensure two switch ins with SR + sandstream up; something like sacred fire/earthquake/thunderbolt/hpice.

Once again, an easily walled set. And not bulky enough to take Rock moves or physical Electric/Water moves afterwards.

With scarf/band I am probably always using earthquake first up for Heatran switches etc. and because not one flying nor levitate Pokemon is surviving sacred fire/willing to risk a coin toss for burn (except bulky rest/talkers). After that, I can just spam sacred fire; it's powerful enough to kill a whole bunch of stuff, and if not, a critical burn could win the match.

I'm sure spamming Sacred Fire and its 8PP will absolutely slaughter all enemy opposition. You cannot get away with spamming Sacred Fire and saying that the fact you could hit something physical on the switch means that it isn't a counter. Hold on, I'm going to have to put that in bold so people just skipping half my posts or forgetting what I've said in this thread already won't miss it.

You cannot use Sacred Fire 24/7. Just because you have a move that can burn things does not mean physically-based counters are suddenly not counters.

Absolutely not. Roosting here and giving your opponent a free switch achieves nothing. This assumption is absurd. If you are to use Ho-oh effectively, you should be looking to get it into play before stealth rock, because after the rocks are down, it becomes a suicide Pokemon. I am attacking in this scenario 100%. Actually, I would not even bother with a recovery attack in the first place as it wastes a slot.

In that case, special attackers with Surf can beat you. And the fact that you mentioned Ho-oh becoming a suicide pokémon after SR is up only further makes Ho-oh look bad. Yeah, you can get your Ho-oh in without suffering SR damage, but then what do you when one of the pokémon I metioned in that link from earlier on comes out on it?

Forcing Suicune to rest turns it into a liability (it's like forcing Regice to rest back in the 200 metagame). That could be all the edge that a skilled battler needs to win the battle. Ho-oh is not going to try and square off against a Suicune anyway. It is getting burned on the switch if anything.

So don't switch in on Sacred Fire, if it really bothers you? Suicune without Rest or Substitute is pretty terrible, and Sub blocks status and isn't broken by SF. Besides, requiring Suicune to use Rest isn't asking for much at all.

Edit: I think the only thing this thread has established is the difference in thinking between an average battler and the better battler. Honestly, I fail to understand how you people can think that sacred fire Ho-oh is not ridiculous in OU. If it was demoted, I would jump at the opportunity to abuse it.

Why do feel the need to attack your opposition personally for their comments? I thought some of your comments on my opinions and your assumptions that I'm (and others who agree with me) a poor battler were quite offensive.

How 'bout we don't keep Ho-Oh in? How 'bout I switch in, take 50% Damage. During the turn of you switching in Rhyperior, I roost off damage, and after that, I can still SWITCH OUT to something like Suicune to kill your stupid Rhyperior?

How 'bout we don't keep Rhyperior in? How 'bout I switch in, take 6% Damage. During the turn of you switching in Suicune, I use Roar and might see Ho-oh again, or hit your CMCune hard on the switch, or quite simply switch to a Suicune counter and do the exact same thing you did.

This theorymon will go nowhere. If you're somebody who has time to run one, some of us in this thread would be very appreciative if you could run a Ho-oh tournament or the like, whether you think it will stay Uber or not.

 

[cim]

You're not exactly one to talk about attacking the opposition, if you call that comment an attack.

Anyway, the reason I haven't tried as hard as I should to directly argue against you is comments like this:

So the fact that Guts users aren't counters to Sacred Fire makes it broken? I don't see what you're getting at.

This comment really helps to show your fundamental problem in this issue in that you're trying as hard as you can to win this debate, rather than trying to carefully consider all sides. You took that quote out of context; he was discussing the advantages of using Will-o-wisp over Sacred Fire on a specific set. That's a poor tactic you're using.

 

[Jetx]

I have considered both sides quite a lot. I'm missing all the flaws that people seem to think are in my arguments. If I didn't take the opposition's arguments, I wouldn't have stopped going on about how Bulky Waters are good counters.

Besides, even if you don't think I am using good 'tactics', it doesn't discredit the huge number of points I've made in the thread so far. If you are somebody who tries carefully to consider both sides, as you're implying you are, I'm surprised that you still don't even think it should even be tested. Testing is unbiased and lets the truth be revealed about who is effectively right or wrong. Until we hit that stage, we're just going to be repeating ourselves over and over.

EDIT: A Ho-oh tournament would be testing to some extent.

 

[McGrrr]

Look, this is pointless. You have obviously convinced yourself and will not be moved, however concrete an opposing argument may be. Situations in battle are rarely textbook. I have made my point, and frankly, you have not refuted it. You stray willy nilly from objectivity and you can create ad hoc situations to prove whatever "point" you want. My argument is simple, and saying "switch to a counter" is a completely inadequate response as I have already explained in previous posts.

Heatran bears no comparison because there is relatively little danger for any number of things that successfully switch into a NVE attack. However, with Ho-oh, you run the very real risk of burn even when you predict correctly. This rewards luck rather than skill and disturbs the balance of OU.

Ho-oh is not something that anyone can use effectively. However, the skilled battlers will prove it uber should it ever become OU. I am done with this thread, because it is an apparent waste of time.

 

[Jetx]

Ho-oh is not something that anyone can use effectively. However, the skilled battlers will prove it uber should it ever become OU. I am done with this thread, because it is an apparent waste of time.

If the skilled battlers will prove that it's Uber, what on Earth could be wrong with testing it and actually knowing for sure whether that would happen?

 

[Imran]

If the skilled battlers will prove that it's Uber, what on Earth could be wrong with testing it and actually knowing for sure whether that would happen?

There are things nearer the borderline to test. For Example, Skymin and Deoxys-E. Also the Lati twins have clear OU counters in Metagross and Scizor, so also need testing. There have been too many post in this thread envisiging unbalanced situations to just put Ho-Oh on top of the list.

 

[Evil Hamster]

I think it's obvious that, with the metagame as it is now, Ho-oh would cause significant changes to the standard offensive team. It walls the vast majority of the common sweepers in OU at the moment very easily; being a fantastic counter to Heatran, Scizor, Metagross, almost all Infernape and Lucario variants, and of course Shaymin-S. Not that this is a bad thing; it would be interesting to see how the typical offensive team would develop in response to this. I would imagine that the aforementioned Rhyperior would get a significant boost, and that bulky ReSTalk DD Kingdra set might see some use too. ReSTalk Gyarados may get a boost for similar reasons, though I would imagine that even with Intimidate, Choice Band Sacred Fire would still sting. Suicide leads would probably rise in popularity significantly, as well as Gengar usage to counter the probable increase in the use of Rapid Spin to prolong Ho-oh's lifespan. Heatran would obviously be useful to have around, but even a Choice Specs Ancientpower/Hidden Power Rock won't OHKO, and there's the possibility of being Earthquaked or just set up on by the Calm Mind set, so I wouldn't really rely on that for anything bar stalling out Sacred Fire PP on the Choice Band set.

Stall teams would have to change considerably too; I wouldn't be surprised to see Hippowdon fall in usage in favour of the considerably bulkier Rhyperior, as being forced to rely on ReSTalk for healing isn't such a bad thing when you'll be burnt 50% of the time you switch in. The Fire resist is obviously helpful too. ReSTalk Suicune/Milotic will probably grow in popularity too, though they aren't really doing much damage back as Surf will barely 3/4HKO those that invest in Special Defense (without Stealth Rock) and Roost/Recover makes it really hard for the bulky waters to win here with Pressure. Suicune's Pressure and Rest means it can stall it out of Roosts before it is stalled out itself, and Roar stops Calm Minders from setting up on it, which Milotic can really have problems with. Hariyama could be effective with Thick Fat and Rest, though I would imagine that it will very quickly be stalled out of Stone Edges and then it can't really do any damage back.

With Stealth Rock off the field, one of the sets I would probably be most worried about in OU play is something along the lines of Substitute/Sacred Fire/Roost/Earthquake or Toxic in a similar vein to the SubRoost Zapdos set, simply because most physical attackers that can kill Ho-oh are relying on Stone Edge to do so, and with Substitute and Pressure you can very easily stall them out. You can also outstall Surfs and the like much easier too. Toxic over Earthquake does make taking on Heatran more difficult, but you can generally stall it out of Fire Blasts as it can't do much back to you either.

I would like to see Ho-oh tested, as Stealth Rock really does hamper it to the degree that it could not be as hard to take down as most people are thinking. However, purely on theorymon I would guess that it would be overpowering. In a way it is very comparable to Skymin because of the high chance of getting hit with a secondary effect as you switch in, which you have to account for. The fact that the 50% burn is crippling to most of the things that would otherwise be able to kill it will generally mean having a very overspecialised counter.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Mmm... well, this certainly is an interesting bit of discussion. I hope no-one will mind if I think out loud for a second?

Most would agree that a pokemon's tier depends fundamentally on Stats, Movepool, and Type. (ignore the other ones for a second, please)

Ho-oh has a monstrous BST 680, which cannot be ignored, and it has a hugely viable moveset to go along with it. Its typing leaves a lot to be desired however, and leads on to the 'common 4x' argument, that a 4x weakness to a common type (eg. Ice and Dragons, Bug and Celebi, Ground and Heatran) greatly hinders a pokemon trying to make a name for itself in competitive battling. Unlike the other big 'common 4x' pokemon, Rayquaza, Ho-oh seems to be designed more with staying power in mind than running amok through teams.

Finally, there is the psychological aspect of the matter. This is supposedly what put Garchomp through into Ubers (on smogon). What with the fact that it was very popular, and with the mass hysteria that followed it, despite its many shortcomings it was banned. Many of these people may have only used it because of the hysterical articles that appeared everywhere, using phrases like 'most prominent threat in OU' and 'literally uncounterable'. But back on topic, something similar may occur for Ho-oh if it was moved down. A BST 680 pokemon with few drawbacks is not to be sniffed at.

Oh, and I apologise if these points were brought up earlier in the discussion, I was too lazy to read the lot.

 

[petrie911]

that a 4x weakness to a common type (eg. Ice and Dragons, Bug and Celebi, Ground and Heatran) greatly hinders a pokemon trying to make a name for itself in competitive battling.

A 4x weakness by itself does not greatly hinder a pokemon. Heatran, Swampert, Scizor, Forretress, Garchomp, Ttar, Sala, Dragonite, Heracross, Celebi, etc. Nor does it mean you can't tank (Swampert, Forry, Celebi). Ttar even has more weaks than Ho-oh (Water/Grass/Steel/Ground/Bug/Fightingx2 vs Water/Electric/Rockx2). However, a 4x weakness to Rock does greatly hinder a pokemon, and that's solely because of Stealth Rock, a move so good it's worth sacrificing a pokemon for.

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

How 'bout we don't keep Ho-Oh in? How 'bout I switch in, take 50% Damage. During the turn of you switching in Rhyperior, I roost off damage, and after that, I can still SWITCH OUT to something like Suicune to kill your stupid Rhyperior?

Do you even realize what you just said? If you switch the Ho-Oh out after you roost, THEN RHYPERIOR COUNTERED THE HO-OH! And then, ZOMGZ!!, I can switch the rhyperior out of your suicune. In that situation, your Ho-Oh was countered.

Also, @ McGraw: If you don't roost with that Ho-Oh, and you make it a suicide poke @ 50%, you're not doing too much. So if you want to let your half health tank go on a suicide rush to get off an attack or two, go for it. That is no where near the optimal use of Ho-Oh tho.

Also, if both of you even took the time to finish reading, I SAID IT SHOULD STAY UBER. I'm merely pointing out legitimate points of both arguments.

 

[lilyhollow]

Look, this is pointless. You have obviously convinced yourself and will not be moved, however concrete an opposing argument may be. Situations in battle are rarely textbook. I have made my point, and frankly, you have not refuted it.

Your argument is not concrete, nor does anyone particularly need to refute it, because Ho-oh hasn't been tested, simple as that. Sure "you can say the same about Rayquaza" or whatever, but there aren't any ubers, and honestly probably not any Suspects either, that have a weakness as extreme and potentially abusable as Ho-oh's.

I find it kind of interesting that you're calling Ho-oh essentially a "glorified Moltres until it gets Sacred Fire," and that that's what 'makes it uber.' Practically nothing likes 50% burn rate but when there's an item specifically designed to prevent status effects, the metagame is considered possibly "too offensive" by many right now, and Ho-oh's biggest fear is being forced to switch out, the idea of Lum Berry Tyranitar, Salamence, or similar doesn't seem that crazy to me, especially considering that they weren't exactly terrible ideas in the first place.

The fact is, at least as far as your "whatever I'll just spam Sacred Fire and laugh cuz of burn" strategy goes, 1)Ho-oh has a very difficult time switching in in the first place, 2)it only needs to be forced out one time to be rendered essentially useless, and 3)during that more-than-likely short amount of time that it's in play, it may or may not be able to actually even pull its weight.


This is totally ignoring stuff like "Ho-oh + Deoxys-S is unstoppable!!" partially because Deoxys is a suspect anyway, and partially because theorymon of that magnitude is going a little too far in my mind anyway.

However, the skilled battlers will prove it uber should it ever become OU.

or alternatively, they'll prove it before Ho-oh ever becomes OU because there is a place for unproven, disputed Ubers and it's called the Suspect Test ladder. Nobody is suggesting we just toss Ho-oh into Standard to see what happens so I'm not sure why you're acting like that's the case.

 

[umbarsc]

In addition to what Blame Game mentioned about Lum Berry, here's a little riddle.

What move is learned by every OU Pokemon, and cures you of status while recovering health?

I don't see what is so crazy about carrying a RestTalk Rhyperior or Hariyama.