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Ho-Oh Revamp: QC 3/3

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by gookie, Aug 26, 2012.

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  1. gookie

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    [Overview]

    <p>Ho-Oh still holds its position as one of the top threats in the game. Its huge base 130 Attack, coupled with its powerful STAB options in Sacred Fire (which carries an impressive 50% burn rate) and Brave Bird, Ho-Oh can easily put serious hurt on anything that dares to stand up to it. Ho-Oh's amazing 106 base HP, 90 base Defense, and 154 base Special Defense in conjunction with reliable recovery mean that the rainbow phoenix will be very hard to take down. Ho-Oh also received a great new toy in the form of Flame Charge, which remedies its middling Speed and turns it from just a powerful attacker into a dangerous sweeper. Unfortunately, Stealth Rock will continue to be Ho-Oh's biggest weakness, as the rainbow bird despises losing 50% of its HP on every switch-in. Nevertheless, Ho-Oh remains a top tier threat that can incinerate even the toughest of teams with ease.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Tank
    move 1: Sacred Fire
    move 2: Brave Bird
    move 3: Substitute / Earthquake / Whirlwind
    move 4: Recover
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 248 HP / 176 Atk / 84 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This Ho-Oh set takes advantage of its incredible defenses to take hits and dish out even more painful ones. This Ho-Oh, in particular, serves as a great defensive counter for a lot of threats, such as most Calm Mind variants of Arceus, Darkrai, any Steel-type, Shaymin-S, Heatran, Palkia, Reshiram, Dialga, and much more.</p>

    <p>Sacred Fire and Brave Bird are the main attacks, the former doing tremendous damage to anything that doesn't resist it and spreading burns to help make up for Ho-Oh's below-average Defense, and the latter annihilating Kyogre, Palkia, and Reshiram. Recover is chosen over Roost as the recovery option in this case. Ho-Oh is not running much Speed at all with this set, and, therefore, it will usually not be able to take advantage of the temporary Electric-type neutrality that Roost brings. Instead, Recover is better so Ho-Oh will always have its immunity to Ground-type attacks. However, Roost still does have some merit in allowing Ho-Oh to stall out a burned Groudon's Stone Edge, so long as Groudon is slower than Ho-Oh. Substitute affords Ho-Oh status protection and gives it a way to strike at its checks without having to predict them switching in. Combined with Recover and Pressure, Ho-Oh can use Substitute to quite easily stall out the PP of dangerous moves such as Kyogre's Water Spout. Earthquake is an option as it rounds out the coverage superbly, 2HKOing all forms of Zekrom (and OHKOing offensive variants after taking damage from Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes) and denting Rock Arceus nicely, as well as always OHKOing Heatran. It has far more merit when a Life Orb is being used by Ho-Oh. Whirlwind allows Ho-Oh to become a great phazer, spreading passive damage around like wildfire while easily shrugging off damage with its excellent bulk and Recover.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread gives Ho-Oh a decent amount of power, while still retaining its high special bulk. +4 Timid Life Orb Darkrai will not OHKO this Ho-Oh, Choice Scarf Palkia only has a 3.13% to 2HKO with Thunder, and 252+ Dialga's Draco Meteor will top at only 51.56%. The rare yet threatening Flying Arceus will never 2HKO Ho-Oh with a +1 Judgment thanks to Leftovers. A Life Orb can be used over Leftovers, which trades longevity for power: the item allows important OHKOs and 2HKOs that Ho-Oh cannot achieve with Leftovers, such as almost guaranteeing the OHKO on Choice Scarf Kyogre with Brave Bird after Stealth Rock damage.</p>

    <p>Ho-Oh's favorite teammates are Groudon and a Rapid Spinner; the former pumps up the power of Sacred Fire, while the latter keeps Stealth Rock from crippling Ho-Oh. This set also really appreciates paralysis support to make up for its low Speed. Grass Arceus can easily deter Ground-types from switching in thanks to its typing, allowing it to easily slow a large chunk of the enemy team with Thunder Wave. Dialga, Groudon, Lugia, and Zekrom, Jirachi, and Blissey can all also spread paralysis very effectively. Lots of entry hazards of any kind are also recommended if using Whirlwind. Forretress can set up all three entry hazards, and Ho-Oh can easily come in on Fire-type attacks aimed at Forretress and begin to Whirlwind away.</p>

    <p>Of special mention for this set is Toxic Spikes provided by the previously mentioned Forretress. Toxic Spikes, when combined with Substitute and Recover or Roost, can allow Ho-Oh to outstall many threats simply by spamming Substitute and Recover while the hapless foes slowly lose their life from increasingly powerful Poison. For example, Ho-Oh can come in on something that it walls but is faster, such as Choice Scarf Palkia, and set up a Substitute as Palkia faints from the Toxic Spikes poison. From there, Ho-Oh can easily net another KO or two while safely behind its baby Rhydon doll.</p>

    Suggested Changes

    -Regenerator main slash. I know this is hugely contentious, but I find myself using Regenerator even on this set, however, both abilities are extremely valuable and this will be a rare case in which I suggest both abilities are slashed and the pros and cons of both will be talked about in AC.
    -Mention Kyurem-W as one of the few dragons that can 2HKO Ho-Oh in the sun with special moves. However, outside of Choice Specs Ho-Oh is a fine switch in.
    -Mention Lati@s as being checked super hard by Ho-Oh outside of rain. And even in it only fearing Thunder and Surf. Grass Knot / Dragon Pulse sets are turded on.
    -Lol why does this analysis mention Flying Arceus
    -Suboptimal EV spread? Ho-Oh's probably one of the biggest victims of no speed creep on analyses. I think surviving a +4 Timid Life Orb Darkrai's Dark Pulse is such a stupid thing to aim for. Somebody come up with a better spread? I personally find the 4th gen one fine. (24 Spe for Adamant Tyranitar, i.e. Speed creep in disguise).
    -Mention hard-countering Genesect without boosted Explosion or rain Thunder.
    -AC mention 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe Life Orb
    -AC mention Specially Defensive Careful Ho-Oh
    Show Hide

    move 1: Sacred Fire
    move 2: Brave Bird
    move 3: Roost
    move 4: Whirlwind / Toxic / Light Screen
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Regenerator
    nature: Careful
    evs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe




    [SET]
    name: Physical Sweeper
    move 1: Flame Charge / Tailwind
    move 2: Sacred Fire
    move 3: Brave Bird
    move 4: Roost / Earthquake
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>In previous generations, one of Ho-Oh's biggest problems was its middling base 90 Speed. However, in BW, Ho-Oh can rectify this problem by using Flame Charge or the improved Tailwind to boost its Speed to sky-high levels. Throw in sunlight support to power up Ho-Oh's STAB Sacred Fire and you'll have one deadly sweeper on your hands.</p>

    <p>Choosing between Flame Charge and Tailwind is tough. Flame Charge's Speed boost will last until Ho-Oh switches out, and it also allows Ho-Oh to soften up the opponent's Ho-Oh check with a light smack before going on the offensive. However, Tailwind offers a significantly higher Speed boost. For example, Ho-Oh requires a Jolly Nature and 252 Speed EVs just to Speed tie with positive nature base 90 Speed Pokemon that have a Choice Scarf. However, Ho-Oh, after a single use of Tailwind can outrun max Speed base 108 Pokemon equipped with Choice Scarf while itself running a neutral Speed nature and only 172 Speed EVs. Tailwind also benefits the entire team; just in case Ho-Oh needs to switch out, a counter to your opponent's Ho-Oh check can step in and perform a mini-sweep on its own using the boosted Speed granted by Tailwind. However, Tailwind only lasts 3 turns after being used, meaning that Ho-Oh's sweep may end prematurely.</p>

    <p>Sacred Fire is the main attack Ho-Oh will be using, and, when backed by STAB and sunlight, it outright OHKOes many Pokemon in the Uber tier such as Mewtwo, as well as at least 2HKOing anything that does not resist it. Brave Bird, Ho-Oh's other incredibly potent STAB move of choice, nails Kyogre, Reshiram, and Palkia for assured OHKOs after Stealth Rock damage. Brave Bird also provides Ho-Oh with a very strong sweeping attack in case the weather is not in its favor. Roost rounds out the set brilliantly to help Ho-Oh recover damage incurred from Stealth Rock and Life Orb, as well possibly allowing it to gain multiple Flame Charge boosts or to set up Tailwind repeatedly. Ho-Oh is also an excellent defensive Pokemon as well as an offensive one, and it can serve as a check to many threats such as Shaymin-S, Steel-types, Darkrai, most Calm Mind variants of Arceus, and Reshiram. However, although Fire- and Flying-type STABs are a good combination, it will leave Ho-Oh walled by Zekrom, Heatran (it needs Toxic or Hidden Power Rock to beat Ho-Oh one on one, however), and Rock-type Pokemon. Earthquake solves this problem by OHKOing Zekrom after it takes damage from Stealth Rock and one layer of Spikes, always OHKOing Heatran, and 2HKOing at worst any Rock-type Pokemon not named Solrock, Lunatone, or Aerodactyl, all Pokemon unfit for Ubers play. However, without Roost, Ho-Oh will become extremely vulnerable to Stealth Rock, so solid Rapid Spin support will be necessary.</p>

    <p>The EVs are fairly simple. Maximum Attack is wanted to hit as hard as possible, and the Speed EVs enable Ho-Oh to hit 418 Speed after a Flame Charge, which lets it outpace everything below Choice Scarf Heatran. If using Tailwind, it is best to run 172 Speed EVs, which will allow Ho-Oh to outspeed Choice Scarf Terrakion. Adamant is preferred because it affords Ho-Oh a large amount of much-needed power. However, Jolly allows Ho-Oh to outspeed Deoxys-A and tie with other Choice Scarf base 90 Speed Pokemon such as Dialga after a Flame Charge boost and Jolly Max Speed Excadrill in the sand after a Tailwind.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>This set most appreciates sunlight, to boost the power of Ho-Oh's STAB Sacred Fire to astonishing levels, and Rapid Spin, to aid Ho-Oh in setting up by removing the crippling Stealth Rock from its side of the field. Groudon, with its great bulk and everlasting sunlight courtesy of Drought, fulfills Ho-Oh's sunlight needs perfectly. Groudon can also set up Stealth Rock to help Ho-Oh nab some important OHKOs. Forretress's good defenses and many resistances allow it to fulfill the Rapid Spinning role perfectly as well, and it can even set up Spikes to facilitate Ho-Oh's sweep.</p>

    <p>The best counter to this set is Rock Arceus, as it packs resistances to both of Ho-Oh's STAB moves, is bulky enough to take an Earthquake, and can easily destroy Ho-Oh with one Judgment. Ho-Oh also isn't a fan of Kyogre and Zekrom, as the formers disposes of Ho-Oh's beloved sunlight and the latter can handle one hit from Ho-Oh and OHKO it back with Bolt Strike. Rock-types also pose a problem if Ho-Oh lacks Earthquake, as due to Ho-Oh's 4X weakness to said type, any decently powerful Rock-type attack will bring it down. Thankfully, Groudon's bulk and very powerful STAB Earthquake make it an excellent counter to Zekrom and Rock-types, including Rock Arceus. Palkia can easily come in on Kyogre's powerful Water-type strikes and defeat it with Thunder. Grass Arceus is capable of checking pretty much all of Ho-Oh's counters, either crippling them with status or setting up on them with Calm Mind.</p>

    Suggested Changes

    -AC 176 Speed EVs for Scarf Terrakion

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Sacred Fire
    move 2: Brave Bird
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Punishment
    item: Choice Scarf
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Choice Scarf patches up Ho-Oh's meager Speed to a respectable 459, beating every Pokemon in Ubers except for Deoxys-S that does not hold Choice Scarf, allowing Ho-Oh to become a great revenge killer and late-game cleaner.</p>

    <p>Sacred Fire, even without a Life Orb boost, is still a ridiculously powerful attack in the sunlight that will maim anything that does not resist it. Brave Bird also stands as a very powerful secondary STAB that 2HKOes most types of Kyogre and Palkia. Earthquake is there to cover things such as Zekrom, Terrakion, Heatran, and Tyranitar. However, using Earthquake is risky due to the sheer number of Flying-types and Levitators in the Uber environment, so exercise caution before going ahead with the attack. Punishment is a useful little tool that serves as a failsafe against things such as Calm Mind Mewtwo, Calm Mind Giratina-O, and Calm Mind Arceus. As it increases in power as they gain Calm Mind boosts, Ho-Oh can easily use Punishment to save your team from utter ruin if the enemy Calm Mind user has acquired multiple boosts.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Once again, any teammate from the previous sets will also work well with this one. However, due to this Ho-Oh's considerably lower power, defensive Kyogre is now able to wall it and Wobbuffet can trap it with Shadow Tag and Counter it to oblivion. Choice Band Zekrom is able to stomp all over Kyogre with its powerful STAB Bolt Strike, and can also weaken Wobbuffet to the point where it can no longer trap Ho-Oh. Mixed attackers such as Palkia and Dialga can bluff a Choice Scarf by holding an item such as Lustrous Orb or Expert Belt to lure Wobbuffet in. As it Counters or Mirror Coats, expecting a physical or special attack, Wobbuffet will quickly find itself being wiped off the face of the planet from an attack on the opposite side. Toxic Spikes from Forretress also badly mess up Wobbuffet.</p>

    <p>This Ho-Oh set has no recovery whatsoever, so Rapid Spin support from Forretress is a must. Using Wish support is also a good idea to keep as both an extra defense against Stealth Rock and to help Ho-Oh switch into resisted attacks. Jirachi is probably the best user of Wish in Ubers due to access to U-turn, great bulk, and numerous resistances, including a resistance to Rock-type attacks. Blissey is also notable as it can pass Wishes so enormous that they will often fully heal the rainbow phoenix.</p>

    Suggested Changes

    -Adamant main slash
    -Slash Sleep Talk with Punishment


    [Other Options]

    <p>Ho-Oh can utilize Reflect, Light Screen, and/or Toxic to become a very good staller with Pressure. Ho-Oh can also don a Choice Band to pump up its Attack to obscene levels, but Stealth Rock damage, Ho-Oh's middling Speed, and lack of recovery mean that Ho-Oh will usually faint too fast to be of any use. Ho-Oh is also a good spreader of paralysis with Thunder Wave. It is very unlikely that Ground-type Pokemon such as Garchomp will switch into Ho-Oh due to the risk of getting burned by Sacred Fire. Safeguard can also be used to give Ho-Oh status protection. Finally, Ho-Oh can use Calm Mind or Choice Specs and run a decent special attacking set with its good base 110 Special Attack, but it's generally outclassed by Reshiram in that respect due to much higher Special Attack and STAB Dragon-type attacks.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Ho-Oh has no true counter as nothing can safely switch in on its devastating attacks. Only smart prediction and having the right combination of resistances will bring it down.</p>

    <p>That said, Rock Arceus is probably the closest thing Ho-Oh has to a true counter. It resists both Sacred Fire and Brave Bird, has the bulk to take multiple hits, and can OHKO Ho-Oh with a swift Judgment. However, Rock Arceus really hates switching in on Earthquake repeatedly. Zekrom also resists both of Ho-Oh's STABs and can easily fell it with Bolt Strike. However, Zekrom loathes a possible burn and a Life Orb Earthquake will bring it to its knees. Kyogre is an issue for Ho-Oh because of Drizzle, which cancels out Ho-Oh's beloved sunlight, and a Surf from the giant blue sea titan will easily drown the rainbow phoenix. However, Kyogre can't really take a Brave Bird at all. Palkia is in the same boat as Kyogre, and even though it possesses STAB Water-type attacks, Ho-Oh actually walls Palkia in the sunlight unless it carries Power Gem. Giratina can soak up Ho-Oh's attacks somewhat comfortably, but cannot do much in return with Dragon Tail. Rayquaza also outspeeds Ho-Oh and can Outrage it into oblivion, but Rayquaza can only really come in on Earthquake. Anything faster than Ho-Oh, such as Choice Scarf Tyranitar, Garchomp, or Terrakion can easily revenge kill it.</p>

    <p>The easiest way to keep Ho-Oh at bay is Stealth Rock. A Ho-Oh at 50% HP is much more palatable than one at full strength. Keeping a sturdy Ghost-type such as Giratina-O or Ghost Arceus is recommended to make sure Stealth Rock doesn't get removed by Rapid Spin as well.</p>

    [Unreleased]

    <p>Ho-Oh receives the ability Regenerator from the Dream World. This is a fantastic addition for Ho-Oh as the added recovery reduces the overall toll Stealth Rock takes on its health, and should Stealth Rock not be up, greatly increases Ho-Oh's ability to take hits. Regenerator should be used on every Ho-Oh set if it's ever released as the added recovery is much more beneficial than the PP reduction from Pressure. However, Regenerator and Roost are an illegal combination. While this may seem to be bad at first, it's honestly not a big deal as Ho-Oh still has access to Recover for healing. It should also be noted that Regenerator is illegal with Tailwind.</p>

    -remove unreleased

    not much else to say really, small revamp but too much for scms imo

    edit: yea should be regenerator on all sets

    qc: members plz weigh in on ev spread for tank set

    edit2: gonna do some obvious rewording in general about regenerator
  2. Bossness

    Bossness

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    Physical attacker:
    "<p>Choosing between Flame Charge and Tailwind is tough. Flame Charge's Speed boost will last until Ho-Oh switches out, and it also allows Ho-Oh to soften up the opponent's Ho-Oh check with a light smack before going on the offensive. However, Tailwind offers a significantly higher Speed boost. For example, Ho-Oh requires a Jolly Nature and 252 Speed EVs just to Speed tie with positive nature base 90 Speed Pokemon that have a Choice Scarf. However, Ho-Oh, after a single use of Tailwind can outrun max Speed base 108 Pokemon equipped with Choice Scarf while itself running a neutral Speed nature and only 172 Speed EVs. "

    This should be 176 evs.
    Shouldnt regenerator be the ability on the other sets as well?

    @Mr.lol.....The stealth rock thing. Isnt it sort of weird that we talk about Ho-Oh checking things at 50% health? I mean its fine on most pokemon. Example: LO Brave Bird OHKOs Kyogre after stealth rock(12.5% health is deducted from Kyogre's health). etc etc. I am not sure what I am trying to say here. I find it awkward that everytime Ho-Oh is mentioned as a check/counter......"If stealth rock is off the field" needs to be added.

    I actually like the spread of 248 hp / 178 Atk / 84 Spe. Ho-oh, unlike the other defensive base 90s needs the speed. Another spread that needs to be mentioned is 248/252/8(the old spread on the tank set) with a life orb. This allows it to win vs Dragon Tail Giratina(BB 3hkos with some average-high rolls).

    Did calculation and it 3hkos on average.
    394 Atk vs 372 Def & 503 HP (120 Base Power): 178 - 210 (35.39% - 41.75%)
    Average damage: 38.17%
    2 hits do 76.34
    With two round of leftovers, Giratina will be at 63.84%
    Add another average damage and you get 102.01%
    Even if Ho-Oh gets below average rolls, all it needs to do is to have substitute intact and roost on the turn Giratina uses rest. During this time, Giratina wont be able to do anything to Ho-Oh, so it will eventually be beaten.

    Ho-Oh vs Latios:
    252Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh (+Atk) Flame Charge in Sun vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 34% - 41% (105 - 124 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    252Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh (+Atk) Sacred Fire in Sun vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 69% - 82% (210 - 248 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    This way Flame Charge Ho-Oh can check Latios.
    I am not calculating thunder as it is inaccurate in sun, so Latios will most likely use Draco Meteor.
    252SpAtk Soul Dew Latios (Neutral) Draco Meteor in Sun vs 4HP/0SpDef Ho-Oh (Neutral): 66% - 78% (235 - 277 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    Ho-Oh doesnt die even after Draco Meteor and 2 round of LO recoil. Ho-Oh is also great at weakening Draco Meteors.
  3. polop

    polop
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    Latios's Dragon Pulse actually 2HKOes after Rocks, Draco Meteor OHKOes and if it gets a Calm Mind boost up it, Dragon Pulse OHKOes. Psyshock deals a hefty chunk too! It hits Ho-oh's weak side meaning it will always OHKO after rocks (just barely though ((51.44% - 60.82%)). Latias is a similar case except it doesn't use Draco Meteor and needs a CM for Psyshock to always OHKO.

    Is max speed really nessecary for Physical Attacker? I mean, its bulk is already so good and at tailwind it doesn't need maximum Speed to outspeed everything. With Flame Charge you may face issues but I mean people don't even run max speed modest Kyogre anymore, and you still lol at Scarfed Palkia in sun.

    Also hows this spread for a new one: 248 HP / 178 Atk / 84 Spe

    Outspeeds uninvested Tentacruel and can BRAVE BIRD it before the next move, additionally, 36 Sp Def EVs can be stolen from Attack and allocated into Special Defense to prevent + 4 Life Orb Dark Pulse from OHKOing (yes you don't need 74 evs lol).

    You can also steal from 8 EVs from HP and put it in to attack to make the Ho-oh 2HKO 252 / 240 neutral nature Ogre after Stealth Rocks.

    I'm not sure about the gen 4 spread to be honest, really, tank Ho-oh can't even threaten Tyranitar unless it has EQ, and Sub is so huge on Ho-oh...
  4. trickroom

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    I gave the Tank EV spread to Furai and he updated it, because the older spread uses only 192 HP EVs = 401 HP, Seismic Toss will break your Sub in 1 hit.

    248 HP / 176 Atk / 84 SpD allows you to survive 2 Thunders from Scarf Palkia most of the time, and you can live a Surf from Modest Scarf Kyogre. The current set takes 44.3% - 52% from Timid Choice Specs Kyurem-W Ice Beam, so Ho-Oh walls it with leftovers and SR not up.

    Modest Ice Beam does 49.2% - 57.8%, you have to use more Special Defense to have a better chance of surviving 2 Ice Beams with leftovers factored in. You survive Scarf Timid Draco Meteor from Kyurem-W 43.6% - 51.6% most of the time after SR.

    I actually don't see anything wrong with the EVs, but if anyone else can suggest a better one that's fine. Mr.Lol suggested more Speed but Ho-Oh should not be using more than 8 Speed EVs on the tank set just like most slow base 90 Ubers. Tentacruel can't do a thing to Ho-Oh, and the extra bulk helps much more. It is best not to encourage Speed creeps on analyses.

    Going Max Speed on Tailwind set lets you outrun Excadrill in sand, not a big deal so you can probably drop the Speed EVs down to 176 for Scarf Terrakion.

    Regenerator is easily the better option in all sets. Switching around easier and healing at the same time is something huge, especially for something bulky like Ho-Oh.

    Agreeing with Anikrahman, another spread that needs to be mentioned in AC is 248/252/8(the old spread on the tank set) with a life orb. With Regenerator Ho-Oh can switch around after smacking things hard, and the recoil can be negated by switching out instead of using Roost. This is assuming Stealth Rock is not up though.

    I think Adamant is the better option for the Scarf set. You gain more power and still beat everything up to neutral nature Deoxys-A. You can even put in some bulk on the set and take out some Attack or Speed.
  5. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    Slash Sleep Talk on Scarf Ho-Oh because Punishment is kind of a bad move and STalk makes it like one of the best Darkrai counters in the game xD
  6. asterat

    asterat

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    Now that regenerator is out earthquake should be the main slash on hell charger, it doesn't have the bulk to wall things the same way and LO can be recovered easily by switching out.
  7. trickroom

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    Roost still allows Ho-Oh to setup on Ferrothorn, Forretress, Grass Arceus ( repeated Ice Beams can slowly wear out Ho-Oh ) and Blissey. Ho-Oh easily scares them out, so it gets plenty of opportunities to Roost back. If Stealth Rock is up, Roost is even more useful and you don't have to switch out to recover.

    0 SpA Ghost Arceus Judgment vs 0 HP EV Ho-Oh 29.2% - 34.8% You can easily survive that and Roost off the damage while Sacred Fire is an easy 2HKO in the sun.

    When using Tailwind, I think Ho-Oh should use Adamant nature for maximum power. Most Excadrill run Adamant anyway so I think Adamant should be main slash.

    QC APPROVED 1/3
    [​IMG]
  8. JGSabino

    JGSabino

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    Why 248 HP? Wouldn't the ability to switch in twice with Stealth Rock be useless with Regenerator and Leftovers?
  9. trickroom

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    248 HP minimizes residual damage such as from Sandstorm, Poison and even Leech Seed. 252 HP makes you die to Stealth Rock faster, even with Regenerator.
  10. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    [qc]2/3[/qc]
  11. Furai

    Furai a ╬ędefender // a ╬▒guardian
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    [QC]3/3[/QC]

    Just make sure you get everything that was said here into consideration (I trust that you already did <3)
  12. syrim

    syrim 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1

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    I see no reason for regenerator not to be the primary slash on every set.

    The prevalence of SR, and the difficulty of spinning make regenerator an option with much, much more general utility over pressure. The ability to switch in many more times, and even be able to come in on certain things with enough health to recover and begin the devastating cycle of sub attacking.

    Pressure has some niche uses to be sure, like pp stalling certain attacks. But to be able to do this versus a competent player (e.g. one who doesnt switch in palkia to attempt to break a ho-oh already on the field, or one who knows not to run stone edge support groudon without roar) SR generally has to be off the field if you choose to use pressure.

    I don't think the utility of stalling out a few moves, which you can generally do anyways with smart subbing and the added recovery regenerator brings, outweighs the ability for ho-oh to avoid losing to some of its main counters, like SR, and bulky phazers while sr is present, including lugia (if ho-oh is behind a sub) and most importantly gira-a.
  13. jackm

    jackm

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    I'll take it; I post a new thread of my own with the OP copypasted, right?
  14. Nexus

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    Yes, do that.
  15. trickroom

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    1,003
    Add this: <Gyarados> Slash Sleep Talk on Scarf Ho-Oh because Punishment is kind of a bad move and STalk makes it like one of the best Darkrai counters in the game xD

    You can change main EV spread to a bulkier one because it is one of the great things about Scarf Ho-Oh, 88 HP / 216 Atk / 204 Speed. Slash in Sleep Talk with Punishment. Sunny Day mention in Other Options to fool around with Kyogre.
  16. Nexus

    Nexus Day 358: Believe
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