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Honchkrow Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by Oglemi, Jan 13, 2012.

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  1. Oglemi

    Oglemi We broke it. Yes, we were naughty. Completely naughty.
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    What you're expected to do in this thread:

    1. Post which sets you used in the round and what you found good about it, what beat it, etc.

    2. Discuss Honchkrow's place in the tier, has the metagame adapted properly to it? Does it break the metagame? What counters are there to Honchkrow?

    3. All Council members are expected to post their thoughts on, experiences using, and experiences against Honchkrow in this thread. As of now the Council isn't determined, but they will have to eventually!

    4. The Council, when decided, should also post here to figure out a time when they can get on IRC on #rarelyused to have a dedicated discussion on the suspects. Not all Council members are expected to make decided time, but MOST if not all Council members should try their damndest to attend.
  2. skymastergamerpt

    skymastergamerpt

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    Can anyone post there opinions here?
  3. Oglemi

    Oglemi We broke it. Yes, we were naughty. Completely naughty.
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    Yes, this thread is for the community to discuss the suspects
  4. Molk

    Molk rip houndoom
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    ever since the new dropdowns, i have found honchkrow....... average. there are just so many ways to deal with it now. which i will list here

    1) steel or rock-types, especially regirock

    2) defensive electric-types such as Stunfisk and ampharos

    3) Extremespeed Entei and faster priority in general

    4) faster Pokemon with trick

    5) faster pokemon with substitute

    6) physically defensive cresselia can set up a reflect

    7) playing well

    8) Faster pokemon with status moves if krow doesnt have a sub

    9) physically defensive alomomola :D


    Mixkrow is too slow to pull off sweeps, while moxie is too easily walled, shouldnt even be suspect imo

    and so many pokemon are faster than krow, BB recoil can force it to roost, where you kill it off lol

    i havent seen a single krow sweep vs a good player since the dropdowns (except when i trolled this dude with an HP ground moxiekrow)
  5. yee

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    Im agreeing with Molk on Honchrow. The Moxie variants have a really hard time doing anything on their own when limited to Flying + Dark coverage, protip- that's not good coverage. Things like Rhydon and Regirock wall it effortlessly and offensive teams can just throw on a Steel-Type, in my experience that's all it will need defensively because any priority will be doing a truckload too. Even if it does free itself to its options of Superpower and Heat Wave it's not beating it's best counters at full health and is even easier to revenge because it's lowering its stats instead of gaining Moxie boosts. It deserves to be kept in the metagame because it's a powerful hitter that can add a lot to a team but at the same time isn't overwhelming.
  6. skymastergamerpt

    skymastergamerpt

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    Well I haven't tried Honchkrow yet but I am gonna sure to try it now looking at this thing these are the three main sets purposed in its thread:

    Show Hide

    Moxie Subroost Life Orb Moxie @Adamant 252 Att. 4 Def 252 Speed
    ~ Brave Bird
    ~ Sucker Punch
    ~ Roost
    ~ Substitute / Pursuit


    Now Looking at the first one the ideia is basically to get Honchkrow in first on a weakened oppenent one that presumably doesn't resist it's two main attacking moves like Klinklang and either set up a Substitute of if that thing is very weakned go for a Brave Bird or even Sucker Punch to get the Moxie bonus. Afterwards setting another Sub and procede to sweep. Now the main problem with this moveset is that Klinklang will rip Honchkrow apart easily by using Gear Grind and the best thing Honchkrow can hope is a 2HKO. Not to mention we also have Aggron who can Head Smash Honchkrow and make those Subs usuless and resist Sucker Punch. Also there is of course the Little Chinchilla Cinchino who can use his double hit moves to annoy Honchkrow. Steelix can easily set up on this guy so basically get a good steel pokemon and you can counter Honchkrow.
  7. Nails

    Nails EAST 2014
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    krow is powerful. it has the second best priority in the tier. it can stallbreak with taunt, equip a scarf to beat common answers, or smash common checks with coverage.

    none of which mean it's broken. i've posted before that if you don't have a honchkrow check you lose to every other bird in the tier. it might have the most use because of a better movepool, but it's slow as fuck and can be outplayed easily. moxie is at best difficult to sweep with against a competant team due to low speed, and a sr weakness combined with below average bulk just mean it's not that difficult to deal with. on paper it's a boss and in practice, yes, it hits hard, but i could say that about cb aggron, however in practice it's not difficult to deal with.
  8. -Tsunami-

    -Tsunami- ¬°YA HA!
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    Honchkrow is simply too predictable nowadays honestly. Dark + Flying doesn't cover that many types, and Pokemon with Substitute just troll it. It's complete set-up fodder for Pokemon such as Klinklang and Steelix because of its awful coverage. The aforementioned Pokemon can "bypass" Substitute with Gear Grind and demolish it with Gyro Ball / Roar, respectively. Not to mention, Pokemon such as Whimsicott can just Encore it into Substitute and completely troll. The It is also extremely frail, so its difficult to pull of recovery; the Stealth Rock weakness just compounds on its frailty. a MixKrow set seems interesting though, as Heat Wave could screw over the Steel-types coming to wall it. You can't run Moxie with it though, but you can always run Hidden Power Ground. But it can still be a very dangerous threat if used correctly, so it should remain in the metagame.
  9. Double01

    Double01 Hate it or love it the under dog's on top

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    Around a round or so back I felt very strongly for the ban of honchkrow. But as this tier has progressed I have noticed a significant drop of usage. Even with my hyper offensive team it's still pretty easy to deal with for them being so predictable. Most player don't recognize that klinklang is my only counter and they fodder there honchkrow pretty early. You should really use honch as a revenger and late game sweeper. It definitely gets walled by too many things for it to perform a mid game sweep. Countless times I see people using honchkrow trying to set up early and sweep early. That is just not how honchkrow is meant to be played. I will be very surprise if the krow gets voted out by this year council. Honch is a great mon and an excellent revenge killer but that does not mean it is broken. If there were a wider spread of something other than moxiekrow then I would consider a ban but as it is now there is no way honch is ban worthy.
  10. Honko

    Honko
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    First, the set I've been using, not that it's anything new.

    Honchkrow (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naughty Nature (+Atk, -SDef)
    - Sucker Punch
    - Brave Bird
    - HP Ground / Pursuit
    - Roost

    It's a valuable member of my team. It's great at saving me from late-game sweepers like Galvantula or Typhlosion, and with one good prediction it can clean up the opponent's last 2 or 3 Pokemon very easily if they don't have a check/counter still alive. I've occasionally swept entire teams this round, but I think that was more to do with a combination of low quality opponents and the hype from the Cress/Sigi/Aero drops making people forget about Honchy in their teambuilding. HP Ground is nice for Aggron, Klinklang, and that damn Probopass. Pursuit makes it easier to get the first boost but also easier for the opponent to wall. I've used both, and they're both much better than Substitute.

    But the flaws remain the same as before. MoxieKrow loses to faster Pokemon with Substitute, which there are plenty of. It loses to faster Pokemon with priority, which there are plenty of. It loses to Steel-types if it doesn't have HP Ground, and it still loses to full HP Klinklang even if it has HP Ground and hits it on the switch. It loses to Regirock and Stunfisk no matter what, both underrated supporters that have plenty of value besides countering Honchkrow. MoxieKrow is not a difficult Pokemon to prepare for, and as long as you're prepared for it you should beat it fairly easily. It's weak to SR and has poor bulk, so it's not like it can keep coming in and trying again. If you stop it once, you've pretty much stopped it for the match.

    As for the mixed set, it is useful as a lure for Steel-types and Lilligant, but it's not a particularly good set on its own, and it's also quite rare. There was a time when people said MixKrow might be the set that breaks Honchkrow, but I think pretty much everyone will agree now that that's not the case.

    So my feeling remains the same as last time we voted on it. Good Pokemon, not broken.
  11. sheniqua

    sheniqua

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    When i first started playing RU, i thought Moxiekrow was easily broken. I got swept time and time again. Then, I actually started trying to be decent. I got a honchkrow counter and all of a sudden, it was completely useless. Use regirock, stunfisk, rhydon, nearly any rock or steel pokemon and its useless. The only good thing Moxiecrow can do is force out a sweeper if you let them set up accidentally.

    Although I haven't really tested it that much, it seems like Mixcrow could be a great lure, killing steel or rock pokemon in the early game, and then using it as a revenge killer in the late game. As i said, i haven't tested it that much, but if you have another sweeper who hates Rock/Steel pokemon (Maybe Swellow?) it could work.

    All in all, it isn't broken at all. It dominates crappy players but is pretty average against any player with experience at all.
  12. Omicron

    Omicron
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    Honchkrow is powerful. There is no denying that. With access to high-powered STAB moves such as Brave Bird and STAB priority in Sucker Punch, it's no wonder that Honchkrow sees a lot of usage. However, Honchkrow possesses quite a few flaws that hinder its capabilities quite a bit. The most obvious issues are its low Speed and shitty coverage with Moxie. Moxie variants are outright walled by virtually any Steel-type, while mixed variants don't hit hard enough and are slow and easily revenge-killed. Sucker Punch isn't the most reliable priority move as well, since Substitute users can easily take advantage of it and play mindgames with Honchkrow. Honchkrow is definitely a huge presence in RU, but it is certainly not broken and should not be banned.
  13. skymastergamerpt

    skymastergamerpt

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    Well Honchkrow is a good pokemon in its ouw right in RU! A very good sweeper in the right hands of the player. Myself I already got some victories thanks to this guy, however I don't belive it is broken and I present you why here.

    For Exemple vs a Crustle

    252 Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs 224 HP 252 Def Crustle 49.85% - 58.75% (It would take at least a Stealth Rock Layer and 2 layer of Spike to have a chance of OHKO). Sucker Punch is even worse as it is only 33.83% damage.

    On the other hand Crustle with Stone Edge.

    0 Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs 0HP/4Def Honchkrow 101.17% - 119.65% which means instant kill

    Let me give another exemple.

    252 Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs 252 HP/252 Def Tangrowth 83.17% - 98.02%

    See if Honchkrow can't even OHKO a Tangrowth without hazards it shouldn't really be banned. So suffice to say Honchkrow is good but it isn't broken.
  14. D4RR3N

    D4RR3N

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    Honchkrow is powerful, but with all those steel and rock types (and alomola), it's no where near a stage where we can call it as "broken"
  15. Twannes

    Twannes

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    Honchrow was one of the pokemon who gained a lot of hype. Sure the high attack, Moxie and Sucker Punch made that hype very understandable. Ever 2 teams had at least 1 honchrow in the early days, that is around the ban of Yanmega.

    Nowadays, we have played with Honchrow enough to say that it's speed and Gen 5 moves prevents it from beating the metagame. In Gen 5 its only limited to Flying/Dark for coverage and maybe an extra hidden power if it wants to use Moxie. Stealth Rock also hinders it longlivety (spelled right?), as Brave Bird recoil can add up pretty quickly. Roost isn't a permanent option, as suddenly you are getting killed while trying to recover health.

    Sure this pokemon is strong, but it's far from broken. It has enough counters and checks. Mixedkrow gets revenged by virtually every scarfer in the tier, while Moxiekrow gets its ass kicked by Steels. Honchkrow is a good revenge killer and late-game sweeper, and it should be used for only that. I lol @ people who try to set-up early/mid game where my steel type is still alive (Aggron atm). Again, Honchkrow is a good late-game sweeper, but it's far from broken.
  16. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken what's important
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    chirp chirp

    Honchkrow (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
    - Roost
    - Sucker Punch
    - Brave Bird
    - Substitute

    Honchkrow is incredibly strong and definitely holds its own as one of the best Pokemon available. With an excellent base 125 Attack, a STAB 120 BP move in Brave Bird, STAB priority in Sucker Punch, and Moxie boosting its Attack every time it kills something, there's really no wondering why it's been considered as a suspect already. Honchkrow also can opt for a Hidden Power coverage move thanks to its base 105 Special Attack to bypass some of its usual counters - HP Grass removes Rhydon and Omastar, whereas HP Fighting can bust through Steels like Aggron. Another underestimated factor is that Honchkrow can always run a +Spe nature to outpace those Pokemon that usually just aim for Adamant Honchkrow - Pokemon like Adamant Hitmonchan and Feraligatr often run just enough to outspeed Adamant Honch and leave it at that, making it even easier for Honchkrow to power through a team relying on checks like those.

    Honchkrow has all the tools necessary to clean out entire teams and is well-deserving of the hype it gets. However, Honchkrow is not the unstoppable warlord that it seems to be. Steelix is and has always been its most reliable counter, taking pitiful damage even from the HP coverage Honchkrow runs and will just Roar it away into Stealth Rock. Regirock can do the same, scaring it off with the threat of Stone Edge or Thunder Wave. Klinklang has no issues with anything it does really, Shift Gear-ing in its face and smashing through its subs with Gear Grind. Previously mentioned, but Aggron, Omastar, Rhydon, etc. are all fairly reliable checks, though one must be wary of the appropriate HP. Alomomola can easily handle Honchkrow and burn it with Scald or Toxic it. Faster Pokemon with Substitute like Rotom can evade its Sucker Punches and KO it. CB Entei does a shitton with Extremespeed and bypasses Sucker Punch. And really, even a little innovation can be used to deal with that stuff. Take stuff like MoltenKyurem's Stunfisk - no one really likes it, but it easily handles Honchkrow and a number of other things. And you also must consider that Honchkrow still has that mediocre Speed and bad defenses; anything faster that can live a Sucker Punch can deal with it pretty well, too.

    tl;dr Honchkrow is very good but has numerous checks and counters (all of which have utility on a team), despite its ability to bypass some of them.
  17. No Luck Involved

    No Luck Involved

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    Personally I think Honchkrow just about sits on the fence of not broken without falling over it. It's got massive power and various sets and tricks up its sleeve that make it dangerous and unpredictable. A well supported Honchkrow will end games easily but as many people have said its bulk and speed are disappointing and as much as it can play mindgames with the opponents, the same mindgames can be used against it just as easily.

    Imo Honchkrow's claim to brokenness is not any one set but it's the combined threat of all of the sets because each one can break through the others counters. I don't like to see things get banned so I think that Krow hasn't proven itself definitively to be broken but I wouldn't be sad if it had to go. It's the closest Pokemon to 'broken' in the tier in my opinion.
  18. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    My thoughts have been explained by others so i'll just say that the best parallel to Honchkrow is like Salamence of 4th Gen, the primary difference being that Honchkrow only has one set that can sweep you as opposed to two, as well as having more counters than just Cresselia.
  19. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Honchkrow is nowhere near broken, even before the new mons came to the tier. People have finally started realising how useful certain steel and rock types are, like Regirock, Rhydon, Klinglang and Aggron, which all make Honchkrow cry. While Honchkrow can get past said mons with Superpower it must forfeit Moxie to do so which makes it easy to revenge kill with anything semi-bulky and faster of 'course.

    The most dangerous set, SubRoost, is easily stoped by many RU pokes like the 4 i mentioned above and Rotom-A and Stunfisk. These are 6 solid counters! I haven't even started mentioning checks.

    So yeah Honchkrow is a very good poke but nowhere near broken!
  20. boo836

    boo836

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    I don't really feel that Honchkrow is really broken in the normal sense, but I've found that it has affected the metagame negatively. I'd really like to see a metagame without Krow if anything to just see what it's like.

    Krow's best counters are Stunfisk, Regirock, Steelix, Rhydon (assuming no Hidden Power Grass), and Cresselia (assuming no Night Slash).

    Regirock and Cress the the only things there that aren't a complete pain in the ass to fit on to a team, but they will hinder an offensive team's synergy. From what I've seen so far, trying to build anything resembling an offensive team is almost impossible because you need to fit a wall on just to beat Krow. While it may not seem like much, most offensive teams already need a wall or two in order to handle common threats. I wouldn't even consider trying to fit in one of Krow's counters as a primary wall on offense unless it was Regirock or Cresselia, because Rhydon, Steelix and Stunfisk can't take on a great deal of Pokemon that gives offense trouble (and that Regirock can't take). I'd be hesitant to include Regirock there because taking two Superpowers in a row means that it won't be living through another hit without using Rest. Cresselia at least could use Moonlight to shrug it off.

    Of course, Krow has a ton of checks but simply because of how destructive Krow is, one thing almost always needs to go down before you have a chance to take down Krow. Faster priority can pick off a weak Krow (except Entei, who can pick off most Krow after SR), and a few scarfers can revenge it quite easily

    Sounds kind of like something from DPP/HGSS but I can't put my finger on it....

    [​IMG]

    Oh right.
  21. Honko

    Honko
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    I disagree. Not only is Honchkrow not broken, but I also think it has a good effect on the metagame. Offense is already a strong enough strategy as it is, and Honchkrow helps keep fast Pokemon like Sceptile, Galvantula, Typhlosion, and Chlorophyll/Swift Swim users in check. Priority is what stops these Pokemon from running over everything, and Honchkrow's priority is one of the best. I think it's actually helping keep the tier balanced.
  22. Double01

    Double01 Hate it or love it the under dog's on top

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    @boo836 your forgetting klinklang as a hard counter to krow. Klinkalng is probably the best pokemon to use for an offensive orriented.
  23. spuds4ever

    spuds4ever

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    Not really. Lots of honchcrow carry heatwave to deal with low sp. def steels such as klingklang. Heatwave is one of its most dangerous tools as many dark types would kill for a steel-killing weapon.
  24. Ningildo

    Ningildo

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    It's walled completely by steel types, as Heat Wave is illegal with Moxie (which is the ability of the most common Krow set).
    So...
  25. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    You forgot to mention Aggron and Klinglang which both can fit easily in offensive teams. Now count the number of counters and you will see thath there are a lot. And offensive teams can use 2-3 of them in addition to the multitude of checks that Honchkrow has so...

    If you have Heat Wave then you don't have Moxie which in needed for Honchkrow's most dangerous set.

    EDIT: ninja'd
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