1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

Houndoom (Update) [QC 2/2] {GP 2/2} Done

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Triangles, May 28, 2013.

  1. Triangles

    Triangles

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2011
    Messages:
    371
    [Overview]

    <p>At first glance, Houndoom seems unsuited to the ADV metagame, being entirely walled by the sponges Blissey and Curselax, stopped by bulky Water-types such as Milotic and Suicune, and trapped by the ubiquitous Dugtrio. However, Houndoom is capable of filling an often pivotal role: Pursuit-trapping the spinblocker Gengar while also providing a consistent switch-in to Celebi and Superachi with its immunity to Psychic, resistance to Grass, and powerful Fire Blast. Its ability to remove Gengar is especially significant, as it allows for the likes of Forretress and Cloyster to successfully Rapid Spin with greater ease. Pursuit also helps open up a sweep from the likes of Earthquake Curselax, and also allows Explosion to be used with less fear.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Pursuit
    move 1: Pursuit
    move 2: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
    move 3: Crunch / Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Ice
    move 4: Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Early Bird
    nature: Timid
    evs: 56 HP / 252 SpA / 12 SpD / 188 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set has a very simple premise behind it: – to defeat Ghost-types with maximum efficiency. Pursuit does exactly that, catching spinblockers switching out for double damage. Fire Blast is generally the better choice for the next slot as Flamethrower can fail to OHKO the likes of Metagross with some HP investment. Crunch is the primary choice for the third slot, as the threat of Pursuit often dissuades Gengar from switching out and it can land an OHKO on any brazen enough to stay in. Crunch can also actively threaten the rarer Dusclops, which can weaken Houndoom if it only has Pursuit. Hidden Power Grass can also fill the third slot to take a huge chunk out of Swampert and dent other Water-types. Finally, Hidden Power Ice can take out Salamence and Flygon, as Houndoom outspeeds their standard sets. The fourth slot can be filled by one of two status moves, namely Will-O-Wisp or Toxic. Will-O-Wisp is better against physical attackers such as Gyarados, Flygon, Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, Utilitylax, and Salamence, while Toxic cripples non-Rest Swampert and Milotic, and is also better in last-Pokemon situations.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs given hit 300 Speed, beating all standard Salamence and Flygon. If using Hidden Power Ice, you should drop Houndoom's Attack and Defense IVs to 30 as opposed to dropping its Speed IV. 56 HP gives a total divisible by 16 for optimal Leftovers gain. Maximum Special Attack is used rather than significant defensive investment because Houndoom is painfully frail and unlikely to stay around for a prolonged period of time.</p>

    <p>Houndoom is a useful partner for the Spikes-laying spinners Forretress and Cloyster, as the pair have difficulty successfully executing a spin against more defensive Gengar and Dusclops in Cloyster's case and any Ghost-type whatsoever in Forretress's. With spinblockers out of the way, both Forretress and Cloyster will be able to more effectively keep Spikes off your side of the field. Houndoom also synergizes very well with Gengar, being immune to Psychic-type moves and resisting Ghost- and Dark-type moves, whilst Gengar is immune to Fighting- and Ground-type moves and can help Houndoom's Spikes-using partners keep their entry hazards up. Roar also works very well in conjunction with this combination of Pokemon to take advantage of Spikes to their fullest. However, this can be a dangerous strategy if the opponent has Dugtrio. Houndoom also enjoys support from Pokemon that are able to switch into bulky Water-types, such as RestTalk Zapdos and Celebi. Zapdos is useful in that it can absorb Gengar's Hypnosis, which can put Houndoom out of commission for a while, and also does not share a weakness to Dugtrio. However, Celebi also checks Snorlax and Blissey with the combination of Leech Seed and Calm Mind.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Rest is workable on Houndoom, as Early Bird halves its sleep duration. This markedly improves Houndoom's longevity; however, it can be dangerous as a sleeping Houndoom is easy Dugtrio prey—be sure to scout. Beat Up can work on Houndoom if you have a team heavy on physical attackers, as it has the potential to 2HKO the likes of Calm Mind Blissey. However, in doing this you often sacrifice coverage or status, and if your team is physically strong enough for Beat Up, then it shouldn't have problems with the special sponges. If you do use it, though, be sure to use nicknames so as not to prematurely reveal your team! Houndoom can exchange Early Bird for Flash Fire in order to get a boost off a predicted Fire attack, but it loses the ability to wake up more quickly from the likes of Gengar's Hypnosis and also gains a counter in Porygon2. Houndoom can potentially use a SunnyBeam set to clean up late-game, but it is generally far too slow to sweep, and this defies its main purpose as a Pursuit trapper. Sleep Talk without Rest is decent, due to the popularity of Hypnosis Gengar against Pursuit users, especially if you have no sleep absorber; however, it can be somewhat of a waste of a moveslot in a lot of cases.</p>

    <p>Houndoom can use Counter alongside Will-O-Wisp, the idea behind the set being to catch Tyranitar or Snorlax on the switch-in with Will-O-Wisp and then survive an unboosted burnt Rock Slide or Earthquake to Counter it back for the KO. It can also do the same against burnt Aerodactyl's Rock Slide with 52 HP and 48 Defense EVs. However, in most cases you are better off switching to a defensive Pokemon such as Swampert or Skarmory, who can easily take these attacks and do damage or set up Spikes in return, because Tyranitar and Aerodactyl nearly always have no recovery or way to remove status and Snorlax sometimes will not Rest either.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Being a specially oriented, frail Fire-type, Houndoom is countered by a vast array of Pokemon. The special walls Snorlax and Blissey easily defeat it, sponging Fire Blasts merrily while either statusing Houndoom or just bashing away at it. Non-Rest Snorlax needs to watch out for Will-O-Wisp though, as this can cripple it and remove its offensive presence. Milotic and Suicune can switch into Houndoom repeatedly and threaten it with STAB super effective Surfs. Milotic is especially notable as it loves to absorb Will-O-Wisp thanks to its Marvel Scale ability. It also has instant recovery, unlike Suicune, which is forced to use Rest. However, Milotic must watch out for Toxic, as this will greatly decrease its longevity.</p>

    <p>Dugtrio can trap and OHKO with Earthquake if brought in on a predicted switch or when Houndoom has just made a kill. However, one must remember that it cannot switch in on an awake Houndoom without the heavy risk of an OHKO from Fire Blast. Tyranitar, Salamence, Aerodactyl, Flygon, and Gyarados are all in the same boat when it comes to Houndoom: they are all fairly decent answers to it, resisting Fire moves and KOing back, but being physical attackers without a way to remove status, none of them can deal well with a Will-O-Wisp burn. RestTalk Zapdos can deal with Houndoom outside of sand or if it has Flamethrower instead of Fire Blast.</p>
  2. Danilo

    Danilo
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    2,227
    Flash Fire sucks. Use Early Bird for Gengar. Roar is very viable on Houndoom. It lets you play around Dugtrio and it is very good with Forretress, a common Houndoom partner. Rest is okay too with early bird. Give that an OO mention. I think you understate how effective Houndoom is at checking Jirachi and Celebi. It is quite literally the best check to those mons, bar the random physical sets. Dugtrio is just what makes people think that Houndog isn't great.

    What are the 12 SpD EVs for on the dog?

    This is a pretty good analysis overall. Make the changes and u can get the SIR stamp of approval.

    Edit*: The move Roar deserves a decent AC mention if i didn't make that clear.
  3. Triangles

    Triangles

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2011
    Messages:
    371
    Ok, sorted all the stuff you mentioned out. The 12 SpDef EVs are just there as 56 HP EVs gets a total divisible by 16, whereas 68 doesn't, and a few hitpoints won't make that much of a difference at the end of the day especially as the only attacks you want to be taking are special unless you're Countering, and I don't want to put speedcreep for things like SubPass Zapdos in the analysis. I can switch it to divisible by 16 + 1 if you so desire though.
  4. Royal Flush

    Royal Flush

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2006
    Messages:
    448
    Flash Fire is countered by Porygon2!!!!!

    All in all FF is not really worth because there are little to none fire moves and well, doom has no business switching on a possible fire blast from the ones who use it (mence, flygon), so yea Early Bird is better.


    Also something silly, but I'd definitely suggest using nicknames on the whole team if you are using Beat Up. I mean cool you can 2-shot Blissey but you are spoiling your team in the process lol.


    edit: last thing to note is that Duggy can OHKO him even burned.
  5. Danilo

    Danilo
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    2,227
    approve 1/2
    i would mention dusclops a little less, though. no one uses it
  6. Pocket

    Pocket GOJIRA
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Doubles Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,533
    Overview seems unfinished - finish it, plz :0

    You can also include that Pursuit-trapping is also useful for letting Curselax with Earthquake get past a team with Gengar.

    You don't need to do that. Lower Houndoom's Atk and Def IVs to 30 instead.
    add -type to all typings

    ^ Add this.
    Elaborate further that Houndoom's Fire Blast is an OHKO.

    I personally think Crunch should be the primary slash. With HP Grass or HP Ice, you must decide whether to hit Water- or Dragon-types hard; with Crunch you don't need to make this bargain, because it hits both hard. Not to mention it performs better versus Gengar if it decides to stay in than relying on Fire Blast (which isn't even a guaranteed OHKO), and some other random threats like Claydol. The occasional special drops do come in handy, too. HP Grass hits TTar, but Will-O-Wisp on the switch cripples TTar anyways.
  7. McMeghan

    McMeghan Dreamcatcher
    is a Tournament Directoris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Winneris the Smogon Tour Season 14 Champion
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,749
    I would mention Sleep Talk in the Other Options as it helps you deal better with Hypnosis Gengar, which is pretty common (especially nowadays) to escape Pursuiters.
  8. Triangles

    Triangles

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2011
    Messages:
    371
    Ok, changes sorted out, thanks for the advice all.
  9. Pocket

    Pocket GOJIRA
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Doubles Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,533
    If I predict Houndoom to Wisp, I will never bring in my Dugtrio to get burned x_x;; I'll remove or rephrase that.

    APPROVED (2/2)
  10. Triangles

    Triangles

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2011
    Messages:
    371
    OK - sorted that out, thanks Pocket, ready for GP to do their thing.
  11. BKC

    BKC
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis the Smogon Tour Season 16 Championis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,401
    Nitpick: when talking about HP Ice IVs, I think you meant to say Speed, not Special Defense.

    I recommend shiny Houndoom for maximum swag
  12. Triangles

    Triangles

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2011
    Messages:
    371
    thanks. sorted
  13. melvni

    melvni
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,148
    GP check. Good job on writing this.
    Additions in Blue
    Subtractions in Red
    Comments in Purple

    Show Hide
    [Overview]

    <p>At first glance, Houndoom seems unsuited to the ADV metagame, being comprehensively completely/utterly/a word you prefer (comprehensively doesn't feel like the right word here) walled by the sponges Blissey and Curselax, stopped by bulky Water-types such as Milotic and Suicune, and trapped by the ubiquitous Dugtrio. However, upon closer inspection, Houndoom fulfils the is capable of filling an often pivotal role (add colon) of Pursuit-trapping Pursuit trapping the spinblocker Gengar, and while also providing a consistent switch into switch-in to Celebi and Superachi with its immunity to Psychic, resistance to Grass, and powerful Fire Blast. The former niche Its ability to remove Gengar is especially significant, as it allows for the likes of Forretress and Cloyster to successfully carry out Rapid Spin with more greater ease, who often find it difficult to keep Spikes off the field with a Ghost hampering their efforts. Also, the removal of Gengar can help helps open up for a sweep from the likes of Earthquake Curselax, and also allows Explosion to be used with less fear.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Pursuit
    move 1:Pursuit
    move 2:Fire Blast / Flamethrower
    move 3:Crunch / Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Ice
    move 4:Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Early Bird
    nature: Timid
    evs: 56 HP / 252 SpA / 12 SpD / 188 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set has a very simple premise behind it – to defeat Ghosts Ghost-types with maximal maximum efficiency. Pursuit does exactly that, catching spinblockers switching away out for double damage. The next slot is filled by the obligatory powerful Fire STAB of choice, threatening the likes of Celebi and Jirachi. Fire Blast is the more powerful version, whereas Flamethrower can be used for PP and accuracy. Fire Blast is generally the better choice for the next slot as Flamethrower can miss an OHKO on the likes of Metagross with some HP investment though. Crunch is the primary choice for the thrid third slot, as the threat of Pursuit often dissuades Gengar from switching out, (remove comma) and Crunch it can land an OHKO on a Gengar any brazen enough to stay in. Crunch can also actively threaten the rarer Dusclops, which can weaken Houndoom if it only has Pursuit. Hidden Power Grass can also fill the third slot to take a huge chunk out of Swampert and dent other Waters Water-types. Hidden Power Ice can also be used for Salamence and Flygon, however, as Houndoom usefully outspeeds their standard sets. The fourth slot can be filled by one of two status moves – Will-O-Wisp and Toxic. Will-O-Wisp is better against physical attackers such as Gyarados, Flygon, Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, Utilitylax, and Salamence, (remove comma) whereas while Toxic cripples non-Rest Swampert and Milotic, (remove comma) and also is better in last-poke last Pokemon situations.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs given hit 300 Speed, beating all standard Salamence and Flygon. If using HP Hidden Power Ice, you should drop Houndoom's Attack and Defense IVs to 30 as opposed to dropping its Speed IV. 56 HP gives a total divisible by 16 for optimal Leftovers gain. Maximal Maximum Special Attack is used above rather than significant defensive investment because Houndoom is painfully frail and unlikely to stay around for a prolonged period of time.</p>

    <p>Houndoom is a useful partner for the Spiker-Spinners Spikes using spinners Forretress and Cloyster, as the pair have difficulty successfully executing a spin against more defensive builds of Gengar and Dusclops in Cloyster’s (change to straight apostrophe) case, (remove comma) and in Forretress’ case any Ghost Ghost-type whatsoever in Forretress's. With the lack of spinblocker spinblockers out of the way, both Forretress and Cloyster are more proficiently able to keep Spikes off your side of the field more proficiently. Both aforementioned Rapid Spinners use Spikes, so an advisable partner is defensive Gengar. Houndoom also synergises synergizes very well with Gengar, being immune to Pyschic-type moves and resisting Ghost Ghost- and Dark-type moves, (remove comma) whilst Gengar is immune to Fighting Fighting- and Ground-type moves and can help Houndoom's Spikes using partners keep their entry hazards up. Roar also works very well within with / in conjunction with this combination of Pokemon to exploit utilize / take advantage of Spikes to their fullest. However, this can be a dangerous strategy if the opponent has Dugtrio. Houndoom also enjoys support from Pokemon which that are able to switch into bulky Water-types, such as RestTalk Zapdos and Celebi. Zapdos is useful, as it absorbs can absorb Gengar’s (change to straight apostrophe) Hypnosis, which can put Houndoom out of commission for a while, and also does not share a weakness to Dugtrio. However, Celebi is useful as it also checks Snorlax and Blissey with the combination of Leech Seed and Calm Mind.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Rest can be workable on Houndoom, as with Early Bird, the sleep duration halves. This markedly improves Houndoom's longevity, (change to semicolon) however (add comma) it can be dangerous as a sleeping Houndoom is easy Dugtrio prey - be sure to scout. Beat Up can work on Houndoom if you have a very strong team in terms of physical attack, as it has the potential to 2HKO the likes of Calm Mind Blissey. When using Beat Up, be sure to use nicknames so as not to prematurely reveal your team! However, in doing this you often sacrifice coverage or status, and if your team is physically strong enough for Beat Up, then it shouldn’t (change to straight apostrophe) have problems with the special sponges. If you do use it however, be sure to use nicknames so as not to prematurely reveal your team! Houndoom can exchange Early Bird for Flash Fire in order to get a boost off a predicted Fire attack, (change to semicolon) however (add comma) it loses the ability to wake up more quickly from the likes of Gengar's Hypnosis, (remove comma) and also gains a counter in Porygon2. Houndoom can potentially use a SunnyBeam set to clean up late-game, but it is generally far too slow to comprehensively sweep, and this defies its main purpose as a Pursuit trapper. Sleep Talk without Rest is decent, (remove comma) due to the popularity of Hypnosis Gengar against Pursuiters Pursuit users (add comma) and also especially if you have no sleep absorber, (change to semicolon) however (add comma) it can be somewhat of a waste of a moveslot in a lot of cases.</p>

    <p>Houndoom can use Counter alongside Will-O-Wisp, the idea behind the set being that it catches to catch Tyranitar or Snorlax on the switch-in with Will-O-Wisp, (remove comma) and then survives survive an unboosted burnt Rock Slide or Earthquake to Counter it back for the KO. It can also do the same for against Aerodactyl’s (change to straight apostrophe) burnt Rock Slide with 52 HP and 48 Defense EVs. However, in most cases you are better off switching to a defensive Pokemon like Swampert or Skarmory to easily take the aforementioned these attacks and do damage or set up Spikes in return, (remove comma) because Tyranitar and Aerodactyl nearly always have no recovery or way to remove status, (remove comma) and Snorlax sometimes will not Rest either.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Being a specially oriented, frail Fire-type, Houndoom is countered by a vast array of Pokemon. The special walls Snorlax and Blissey easily defeat it, sponging Fire Blasts merrily while either statusing Houndoom or just bashing away at it. Non-Rest Snorlax needs to watch out for Will-O-Wisp though, as it this can cripple Snorlax it and remove its offensive presence. Milotic and Suicune can switch into Houndoom repeatedly and threaten it with STAB Super Effective super effective Surfs. Milotic is especially notable as it loves to absorb Will-O-Wisp with its Marvel Scale ability, (remove comma) and also has instant recovery unlike Suicune, which is forced to use Rest. However, Milotic must watch out for Toxic, as this could be very dangerous for will greatly decrease its longevity.</p>

    <p>Dugtrio can trap and OHKO Houndoom with Earthquake, (remove comma) if brought in on a predicted switch or when Houndoom has just made a kill. However, one must remember that it cannot switch in on an awake Houndoom without the heavy risk of an OHKO from Fire Blast. Tyranitar, Salamence, Aerodactyl, Flygon, and Gyarados are all in the same boat when it comes to Houndoom - they are all fairly decent answers to it, resisting Fire moves and KOing back, but being physical attackers without a way to remove status, none of them can deal with the burning effect of Will-O-Wisp well, being physical attackers without a way to remove status. RestTalk Zapdos can deal with Houndoom outside of sand, (remove comma) or if Houndoom it has Flamethrower above instead of Fire Blast.</p>[/QUOTE]


    [gp]1/2[/gp]
  14. Triangles

    Triangles

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2011
    Messages:
    371
    Thanks for the check, and sorry about the curly commas - damn MS Word...
  15. melvni

    melvni
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,148
    Hey no problem. Just one small thing I missed when I made a change to this sentence. And that thing with the commas can be fixed if you do what Redew said to in this thread.
  16. sirndpt

    sirndpt too cool for a custom title
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    1,118
    [gp]2/2[/gp]
  17. Triangles

    Triangles

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2011
    Messages:
    371
    Thanks for the GP check - this should be ready now.
  18. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    2,302

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)