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OU Houndoom

Discussion in 'Preliminary Pokedex' started by ballislife, Aug 6, 2014.

  1. ballislife

    ballislife aka yung vertex
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    • Yea, this is like the most underrated Mega and the old analysis isn't that good in my eyes, so I asked Jukain for a revamp. It 6-0s pretty much all stall teams when you weaken Chansey (which is not hard to do). If you don't believe me, ask Doughboy whose stall team I swept 6-0 last night. Destiny Bond needs to be removed and replaced by Hidden Power [Grass]. Sunny Day should be slashed after Nasty Plot.
    Old - Ignore (open)


    Sunny Day allows Mega Houndoom to wreck its most common switch in, Assault Vest Azumarill, which can no longer revenge kill it with Aqua Jet doing a pitiful average of 30% in the Sun. Solar Beam is OHKOing after prior damage or OHKO if it decides to switch in on Dark Pulse / Fire Blast. Using Sunny Day = Solarbeam which means you are also wrecking Terrakion and Keldeo which resist its STABs. Fire Blast also gets a huge boost meaning that Chansey, a Pokemon in which Taunt is required for to beat over time, gets 2HKOed by Fire Blast after 2 Stealth Rock switch ins. Yes, 2HKOed. The difference between Sunny Day and Nasty Plot is that Mega Houndoom gets 8 attacks Max with Solar Power in use meaning its worn down fast. The second difference is that Nasty Plot makes Dark Pulse more powerful. While its main targets are smacked down even in Sun, even Offensive Heatran survives whereas +2 Dark Pulse OHKOes 50% after Stealth Rock damage. Defensive Heatran isn't much of a problem, but Offensive is because it carries Earth Power which can do up to 89% meaning it will picked off by like MEga Scizor's Bullet Punch or such. However, Sunny Day is a viable move choice and I have used the Sunny Day set a lot. Also, it makes Tyranitar switch ins useless, Mega Houndoom's only counter along with Azumarill. Its worth a slash.


    Mega Houndoom 6-0s all Stall Teams when used correctly

    Okay, I guess Quagsire might be in the way, but its 2HKOed by Dark Pulse so playing carefully around it is important. I am expressing this in the analysis for a reason because it does! This is the biggest mistake I see when people use freakin Mega Houndoom. They think they can just set up on like Chansey and set up Nasty Plot, then use Taunt and sweep. But no, Chansey kills it after 3 Seismic Tosses. It has to be worn down after repeated switch ins from Fire Blast. If you are facing a Skarmory, you don't set up Nasty Plot as it switches off to Chansey if Chansey is healthy. Let Stealth Rock and Fire Blast do the work in the beggining and switch to like Terrakion which forces it out. Next time when your facing like Mega Scizor and force it out once again to Chansey, Stealth Rock will bring it to about 58% and Taunt so it can't use Recover and Toxic. You can either set up Nasty Plot once again (or if you used Fire Blast as it switched in again then first time), then finish it off. everything else is demolish. Mega Venusaur and even the most SpD bulky Charizard die to Fire Blast and Dark Pulse respectively after Stealth Rock. Everything else, lol, they die. Also, Clefable isn't a counter. Its 2HKOed by Fire Blast and remember its part Fire-type, so...

    Mega Houndoom is not useless versus Offensive teams

    Mega Houndoom is taking Sucker Punch from Mega Mawile and hits for an OHKO back, the most threatening PKMN in the metagame currently. Many teams have to run like Terrakion, Keldeo, and other soft checks because of this thing. With Mega Houndoom, you are not restricting team building as much as you think. 115 Base Speed gives the boost to check Latios, Bisharp, Excadrill,...and do massive damage to things like Landorus-I. After Nasty Plot / Sunny Day its like only being checked by Azumarill (lol Sunny Day), Thundurus-I, Conkeldurr (which sucks and noone uses), and Breloom. Yea, its p. good versus Offense.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Code:
    Quality Control [alexwolf | jukain | ben gay]
    Grammar-Prose [ suck my d | GP team ftw]
    Amateur Checks [None]
    Overview
    ########

    Though it is often forgotten, Mega Houndoom brings a huge amount of utility to the table, checking dangerous threats such as Bisharp, Mega Sableye, and Latios. It also has favorable matchups against common Pokemon; against offensive teams, common switch-ins to it such as Tyranitar and Azumarill are crippled by Will-O-Wisp, while stall teams are troubled by Taunt. Mega Houndoom's access to Nasty Plot and its high Speed allows it to sweep teams with ease. However, its weakness to Stealth Rock can be troublesome: it also is forced out by threats such as Keldeo, Heatran, Rotom-W, Tornadus-T, Mega Lopunny and Mega Altaria. Nonetheless, Mega Houndoom's utility and ability to sweep balanced teams easily makes it a solid choice to build around.

    Utility Attacker
    ########
    name: Utility Attacker
    move 1: Nasty Plot
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Dark Pulse
    move 4: Will-O-Wisp / Taunt
    ability: Flash Fire
    item: Houndoominite
    nature: Timid
    evs: 40 HP / 8 Def / 208 SpA / 252 Spe

    Moves
    ========

    Nasty Plot allows Mega Houndoom to sweep teams with ease once its checks and counters have been removed, and thanks to its great typing, it can force out and set up on Pokemon such as Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Mew, Mega Sableye, and Slowbro. Fire Blast and Dark Pulse are great STAB moves that have good neutral coverage. Will-O-Wisp is useful against offensive teams and can cripple common switch-ins to Mega Houndoom such as Azumarill, Tyranitar, Terrakion, and Garchomp. It also allows Mega Houndoom to check Bisharp. Taunt can be used fto stallbreak, but if it used, Mega Houndoom loses out on the utility of Will-O-Wisp. Hidden Power Grass and Sludge Bomb can be used in the last moveslot to hit Pokemon that otherwise wall Mega Houndoom, such as Azumarill, Keldeo, Terrakion, Tyranitar, Togekiss, and Mega Altaria, though Will-O-Wisp usually cripples most of these, and its utility will be missed. Sunny Day can be used to utilize Solar Power, heightening Mega Houndoom's damage output, but it can be worn down easily; Solar Beam is also easy for an opponent to take advantage of.

    Set Details
    ========

    The given EVs allow Mega Houndoom to survive 3 Seismic tTosses from Chansey and Choice Band Talonflame's Brave Bird. Flash Fire allows Mega Houndoom to switch-into Fire-type moves such as Volcarona's Fire Blast and Mega Charizard Y's Fire Blast, as well as Heatran's Lava Plume. Against Mega Charizard Y's case, a boost can be very important because it gives Mega Houndoom a Solar Power boost meaning it can do a huge amount of damage, while Tyranitar, a common teammate of Mega Charizard Y, is neutered by Will-O-Wisp.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    Offensive teams have trouble dealing with Mega Houndoom, so using Will-O-Wisp to target predicted switch-ins is vital to its success. Mega Houndoom can take advantage of stall teams' weakness to Taunt by double switching many times to wear Chansey down with Stealth Rock and then, when Chansey is weakened, Taunting it so that it cannot heal and setting up on it with Nasty Plot.

    Team Options
    ========

    Gengar and Latios make for great teammates to pair with Mega Houndoom. They appreciate Tyranitar being burned so they cannot be reliably Pursuit trapped, allowing them to wreak havoc with Shadow Ball and Draco Meteor, respectively; Earthquake Latios gets a special mention for the ability to eliminate Heatran, a check to Mega Houndoom. Gyarados has excellent synergy with Mega Houndoom and is able to set up on a bunch of switch-ins to Mega Houndoom. Mega Houndoom is also able to deal with Ferrothorn, a Pokemon that walls Gyarados. Starmie, Excadrill, Latias, and Latios can remove hazards and share nice synergy with Mega Houndoom. Toxicroak is an underrated teammate that has plenty of opportunities to spam Gunk Shot against Mega Houndoom's checks and counters such as Tyranitar, Chansey, Keldeo, Unaware Clefable, Terrakion, and Mega Altaria, if expecting a double switch.

    Other Options
    ########

    Sucker Punch is Mega Houndoom's only option for priority and can mitigate issues against opposing priority and Choice Scarf users. However, it is quite weak without Attack investment. Destiny Bond is a viable alternative in the last slot, but the utility provided by Taunt or Will-O-Wisp or the coverage given by Hidden Power Grass is usually superior. Finally, Sludge Bomb is an option used to hit Mega Altaria and Assault Vest Azumarill harder, but Mega Houndoom needs Taunt or Will-O-Wisp to be effective.

    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Revenge Killers**: Revenge killers such as Choice Scarf Garchomp, Choice Scarf Keldeo, Mega Aerodactyl, Excadrill, and Terrakion make for great offensive checks or counters to Mega Houndoom, depending on the field condition. Strong priority users such as Breloom, Talonflame, and Conkeldurr are also good checks or counters to Mega Houndoom. Thundurus can paralyze Houndoom, crippling it. Also, Pokemon that naturally outspeed Mega Houndoom and can hit it super effectively, such as Mega Lopunny and Tornadus-T, make for good checks to Mega Houndoom.

    **Mega Diancie**: Mega Diancie can switch into Mega Houndoom with ease, as it walls Mega Houndoom's STAB moves and can bounce Will-O-Wisp back. It can then easily OHKO Mega Houndoom with Diamond Storm back.

    **Tyranitar**: Tyranitar replaces sun with sand, resists Mega Houndoom's STAB moves, and has the bulk to take anything before retaliating with Stone Edge. Tyranitar is thus Mega Houndoom's best counter. Tyranitar can still be eliminated by a combination of Sunny Day and Solar Beam on the switch; Will-O-Wisp can also be problematic for it.

    **Chansey** Chansey switches into Mega Houndoom if its not using Taunt, but if it does, the opposing team can wear it down rather easily; however, Mega Houndoom with Taunt can prevent a weakened Chansey from healing. Also, be aware that Chansey is 2HKOed by Fire Blast in sun with prior damage.

    **Conkeldurr**: Conkeldurr can take hits from Mega Houndoom easily while benefitting from Will-O-Wisp, thanks to Guts. It can easily OHKO Mega Houndoom back with Drain Punch and restore any lost HP.

    **Azumarill**: Azumarill walls Mega Houndoom's STAB moves, and it can setup on Mega Houndoom with Belly Drum. Assault Vest Azumarill takes even less damage from Mega Houndoom's attacks; however, Azumarill still has to be wary of Will-O-Wisp, which will prevent it from doing its job.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2015
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  2. ballislife

    ballislife aka yung vertex
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    Ready for QC Checks.
  3. Jirachee

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    I'm not entirely sure that Sunny Day is good enough to warrant a slash.

    You state that Sunny Day is useful against the following threats: Terrakion, Keldeo, Azumarill, Chansey, Tyranitar.

    I think the first two are not really relevant because at +2 HP Grass is a nearly guarenteed OHKO after SR. It surely helps you against Azumarill though, I'll give you that. Against Tyranitar you kinda have a guessing game, because you can't really do anything if it's Scarf or MegaTar which hasn't MEvo'd yet. Also if it switches in while you Solarbeam you're kinda dead.

    I'm not exactly sure how it beats Chansey either. Here is the Fire Blast calc: 252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 271-321 (38.4 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Let's assume the following scenario:

    SR is down / the opponent has Chansey in the back at 87,5% health / the opponent has a low health Skarmory on the field / you have a max health mHoundoom in the back / you have an EQ locked Scarf Garchomp on the field

    Turn 1: Skarmory uses Roost, you switch to Houndoom
    Turn 2: Houndoom uses Sunny Day, opponent switches to Chansey and takes SR damage. Chansey is now at 75% health.
    Turn 3: Houndoom uses Fire Blast which does absolute max, 45,5%. Chansey uses Soft-Boiled and heals 50%. Chansey is now at 79,5% health.

    So yeah, unless you're in KO range, you'll probably never beat Chansey with Fire Blast. Don't forget that during that time, you take Solar Power damage. Not only that, but Sun will eventually run out which will leave a free turn to the Chansey to attack / status you making you pretty much useless.

    NP + Taunt has a chance at beating Chansey and has a more powerful Dark Pulse after setting up, and +2 Dark Pulse grabs nice KO's like a guarenteed 2HKO on SpDef Heatran after Stealth Rock, for example. Not only that, but it doesn't take extra damage every turn from Solar Power which could end up mattering considering Houndoom's SR weakness and the amount of priority in the tier.

    Sunny Day certainly has merit, but is beating a counter and 50/50ing another really worth a slash, especially since you gain another counter then (Heatran), and get worn down easily? I'm not qc so I can't really judge but I'm just putting that out there.
  4. ballislife

    ballislife aka yung vertex
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    You make some good points. I'll keep it as a heavy mention in Other Options.
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  5. MagikaripIsOP

    MagikaripIsOP

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    you don't have a 4th move bruh
  6. Reymedy

    Reymedy Colt Python 357 Magnum.
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    You need a set with Will-O-Wisp.
    I played Houndoom in a couple of teams because it's a great tool against most Sucker Punch users, and I don't think that it is "against" Houndoom nature at all.
    I think it shines in balanced teams, teams that will love to switch into a burned Azumarill/Tyranitar/Mawile/Terrakion and take control over the game from here.

    To put it simply, I think Will-O-Wisp is at least as valid as Nasty Plot. Because when you think of it most Azumarill are played with Assault Vest anyway (and it doesn't even kill full hp ones at +2 with hp grass), Keldeos are getting Scarfed more and more, Tyranitar eats HP Grass all day.

    "Regular form can switch into MZardY easily"
    Yea well, don't be FBlast'd on the switch, and after when you Mevo too, doesn't sound that "easy" to me.

    So yea, I'd put a WoW set somewhere with Sub or Taunt, that's what I used (Sub is really against against offensive teams because they may need to Paralyze you to deal with Houndoom) and Taunt's always great against defensive teams.

    PS : Without WoW, Bisharp will "pop" you with Sucker Punch after SR if he SD'd on the switch. Honnestly it sucks to have MHoundoom but to not be able to cover this.
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  7. SylveonIsCute

    SylveonIsCute

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    Where's the 4th move?
  8. Professional2341

    Professional2341

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    Not QC but few things:
    • Taunt and WoW should get heavy mention
    • Substitute should get a mention too
    • Investing 40 EVs in HP allows you to survive 3 S-tossed from Chansey, something can be really useful to guarantee a 2HKO through NP-ing twice
    • Making the spread 40 HP / 8 Def / 208 SpA / 252 Spe lets you survive Adamant Talonflame's Banded Brave Bird and 3 S-tosses, while it also makes Banded Azumarill OHKO w/ Aqua Jet only 6.3% of the time, while Banded burned Waterfall OHKO only 6.3% of the time. This spread is especially viable if Taunt/WoW was used
    • It also guarantees you to survive a Conkeldurr's Mach Punch and guaranteed to never be 2HKO-d by Mega Venu's Sludge Bomb (unless hax and poison), it also means +2 Bisharp's Adamant LO Sucker Punch will only OHKO 19% of the time.
  9. ballislife

    ballislife aka yung vertex
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    Went out and tested out the WoW set. Reymedy what Set did you use?

    For me, WoW / taunt / fire blast / dark pulse was a huge pain to offense and stall teams. Burning azumarill, tyranitar, garchomp, and Terrakion pretty much allowed me to wear down everything that threatened doom over time and sweep late game after they were weakened with its powerful fire blast. Seems like it can get its own set tbh. While it's not 6-0 stall as easy, it poses a huge threat against offense and taunt still cripples things like Chansey and Gliscor. It's actually a really good set. I overlooked will I wisp thanks. Maybe give it a set after I get on a PC.

    Added EV spread for offensive set. Thanks. Also fixed he 4th move thing. Idk what happened there.
  10. Jukain

    Jukain ~.~
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    i dont like hp grass...its rly only relevant for keldeo and terrak and quag revenges on stall i guess bc azu runs av anyways and hp grass does shit to that. w.o taunt u can't break stall effectively espec if chans has a status. i don't think it's better than moves.

    agree w. a taunt willo set it lures some nice stuff that otherwise beats doom and stallbreaks nicely.

    doom has 115 spe so u can feasibly drop to 354 which outspeeds thundy, tho raik is decently relevant and starmie is becoming more and more relevant so i'll leave that up to you.

    you need hazards removal because sr weakness will quickly put doom in range of things like +2 suckers and w.e plus generally the loss of health is debilitating. rec scarfdrill and latios (which you already mentioned)/latias.

    mention scarf keldeo in c&c and mega aero which can take any one hit rather well and kill with ease.

    will qc after willo set is added.
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  11. Reymedy

    Reymedy Colt Python 357 Magnum.
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    I tried both the WoW/FB/Dpulse/Taunt and the WoW/FB/DPulse/Sub, depending on the pokemons I wanted to beat (sub is good to not be forced out by a Talonflame/Pinsir or to not be paralyzed for instance by Thundu). I prefer the Taunt option though most of the time, and even if it doesn't beat stall, the dude switches in his Chansey, loses HP on SR, eats 20% on FB or gets burned, then gets Taunt'd and all you have to do is switch out, next time it's gonna be less than mid HP (so almost as good as dead for a Chansey).You're almost guaranteed to get a free Taunt given how uncommon Houndoom is.
    I'd enlighten the Conkeldurr weakness for this set even more though, since it won't mind being burned too much, it takes jack shit from your moves and crushes you with Drain Punch.
    As mates, I liked Chesnaught, since most of the things you burn will become very easy to handle for Chesnaught (even Azumarill, CB doesn't 2HKO your Chesnaught so you can switch in and stall it with Spiky Shield/Leech etc), that plus the fact that they share a pretty good typing synergy and the access to Spikes seemed cool for me as Houndoom loves every type of hazards (basically the team was around residual damage + Houndoom, given how he fears all the common defoggers and spinners such as Skarmory or Latios).
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2014
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  12. Ash Borer

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    I wrote the first iteration of this a while ago and I was quite insistent on sun for a while, for wahtever reason. Ultimately I had to come to terms with the fact that its just pretty poor against a decently smart player.

    What I hadn't accounted for is that even though Sunny DAy is actually quite threatening to Politoed, Hippowdon, and Tyranitar the issue is that the solarbeam follow up is completely telegraphed, and really not all that strong considering grass resists are plentiful. Therefore the weather starter can just switch out, then back in quite safely while racking up passive damage on Houndoom. To actually capitalize on the opponent you woul need to predict correctly twice in a row hitting them with a sunny day, then a subsequent attack matching thier next or you gain nothing, as their next move is a safe switch to a weather starter.

    Now its certainly possible to predict correctly twice in a row, however it is a pretty inconsistent tactic if you simply approach it mathematically. Unfortunately I don't think Houndoom's merits offset this inconsistent way of dealing with checks. Thats why I elected to run Destiny Bond as a main slash when I wrote this a while ago. I have no problem with HP grass over destiny bond, because I considered Tyranitar very important to eliminate at the time, but Terrakion and Keldeo have spiked in usaged since then as far as I know.

    So yeah, Sun's ability to defeat some checks is tempting, but it falls flat against important ones, and against others HP grass could beat them at +2.
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  13. ballislife

    ballislife aka yung vertex
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    Added WOW set. The set is a little different then what you said because I did extensive testing to see the best 4Move combo.

    Added everything else like Mega Aero in C&C.
  14. Jukain

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    fix the willo set to be dual stabs / willo / taunt or sub, and make it the first set

    1/3 Vertex sorry for the wait :x
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  15. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom Paralysis is the devil, but nitpicky & unjust mods are worse
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    I feel like you're expanding waaay too much in Moves, which would wind up either leaving Usage Tips somewhat bare or you'd just end up repeating yourself unnecessarily. Especially when you talk about Destiny Bond...

    Lol this is going far too much into detail when explaining what Destiny Bond does. You can lump a good majority of what is listed here in Usage Tips, and just say Destiny Bond can allow MegaDoom to remove Pokemon such as (example) to allow teammates such as (example) to sweep, short and sweet. You can elaborate on what each move does, but be concise about it; it almost seems like you're trying to dig up every single reason to use it, especially when you mentioned Mega Banette out of nowhere.
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  16. alexwolf

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    Remove the bit about getting worn down by Solar Power from the overview, this only happens if you play against a Mega Charizard Y team.

    On the WoW set, slash Dark Pulse before Taunt, Mega Houndoom's dual STABs are amazing and it's a sin not to use both, not to mention you become huge Heatran and Mega Charizard X bait, which is never a good thing. Oh, and Fire Blast has only 8 PPs, so good luck having only one attack with so few pps. I would prefer to see Taunt slashed with Destiny Bond, Dark Pulse is too good to pass up imo.

    Mention in the usage tips and in the overview how Mega Houndoom counters and takes advantage of Mew, a huge reason to use it as your Mega.

    Remove WoW from OO, it's already mentioned on the second set. Same with any other move you have already mentioned on the main sets, either mention a move in OO or in the main set, not in both.

    Also, remove mentions of Mega Mawile.

    Mention Keldeo, Crawdaunt, SpD Gyarados / Mega Gyarados, Mega Aerodactyl, SpD Mega Charizard X, Choice Scarf Heatran, and Dragonite as checks. I know you have already mentioned some of them, but i want you to specify that some of the revenge killers you mentioned are good checks to Mega Houndoom and that some can't switch into it.

    QC APPROVED 2/3
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  17. Alfalfa

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    Mega Altaria is a pain in the neck, as it resists both STABs, but Will-O-Wisp and Taunt can be especially problematic for it. At least mention it as a check.
  18. Kurona

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    In Usage Tips and your overall on Stall, a special mention should probably be given to Mega Sableye because Houndoom can very easily set-up on and beat it.
  19. ballislife

    ballislife aka yung vertex
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    Alright I did some extra testing with MegaDoom,and I really believe the best set is

    NP
    Fblast
    Dark pulse
    Wow / taunt

    Hp grass and Destiny bond no slash but mentioned in moves

    Mega doom is a great utility mon and sweeper, and the preference of screwing with your checks on the switch with wow or doing intense Stallbreaking with taunt is up to u. I find this the best set, nasty plot is too important IMO for sweeping late game

    Want qc opinion for this to be only set and I'll finish this
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2015
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  20. Expulso

    Expulso

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    I recommend you try Flame Charge to get a speed boost vs. offensive teams, making this useful vs. both offense and stall and outspeeding threats like Scarf Lando-T ;o
  21. Karxrida

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    Base 115 is already really fast, so it's not really necessary. It's probably OO at best.
  22. AM

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    I think Sludge Bomb deserves a mention under OO in this meta now due to the increased usage of Fairy Types along with Keldeo which lets you net a neutral hit on it on obvious switch ins. There's actually a lot of stuff that needs to be re-written based on the meta changes that have occured. For example stall-breaker Gengar isn't as seen on the level that Offensive LO Gengar is so as such lots of information needs to be reworked to reflect the current state of OU. I agree with the set that you posted above being the only one. I'll take another look after everything has been reworded more appropriately.
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  23. ballislife

    ballislife aka yung vertex
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    updated this. if it is fine I'll write it up
  24. havokchomp123

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    Remove Greninja from Checks and Counters
  25. ben gay

    ben gay i crai all da tiem ;__;
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    looks good to me. just clean up other options since it's all over the place, 3/3

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