How do I explain Chinese medicine to people who think it's superstition?

[internet]

I'm starting to understand more, but I'm still interested.
Can you talk a bit more about the Scotsmanning?
Thanks

A no-true-scotsman fallacy is when you say some group of things posseses or lacks a certain quality ( e.g. scotsmen never steal!), and when faced with examples that give evidence to the contrary, you say those things aren't truly part of the group. (e.g. the thief isn't a true scotsman, even if he and all his recent ancestors were born and raised there!)

i turned the fallacy into a verb to safe me some typing.

 

[Knots]

Of course all (real) traditional Chinese medicine works.
It's not a belief. It is a system.

It's just "newly discovered" by white scientists, that's why there are so few documentaries about it.
They are putting a large project of testing it, which definitely will come out positive.

Most white people though, only think of hoaxes such as rhino horn harvesting. That's like the only situation you hear about "Chinese medicine" which isn't real Chinese medicine.

It's the same as how Norway is harvesting krills for "health supplements". Which doesn't mean that health supplements are superstition.
Simple as that!

End your bigoted discriminatory actions please!

What the?? There is nothing bigoted about asking for studies to substantiate claims. I put no requirement on the ethnicity of the people to do those studies. The thing is, a great many of the concepts proposed by traditional Chinese medicine have been tested by many different independent sources and so far the results have been inconclusive at best and damning at worst. Most of these concepts share a common problem, being that all attempts to prove the existence of "Qi" have utterly failed. The idea of Qi and body meridians doesn't gel with our current understanding of human biology.

As I understand it, traditional Chinese medicine includes a wide range of claims from things like acupuncture in addition to herbal approaches like the use of animal substances such as rhino horns. I'm not saying either of us puts any stock in the supposed medicinal properties of rhino horns, but telling people it's not "real Chinese medicine" is misleading: you arrived to this conclusion that it does not fall into the traditional Chinese medicine category by way of the no true scotsman logical fallacy.

Instead of trying to argue that "all traditional Chinese medicine is valid" and then attempt to change the definition of what Chinese medicine is to better suit your claim, you'd better serve yourself by instead arguing for the specific facets of Chinese medicine that you actually believe are valid.

EDIT: I see someone has already pointed out the logical fallacy. I had not read the entire thread before replying, just the post I was replying to <3

 

[internet]

I wasn't immediately accusing djanxo of any fallacies, just stating that it might be useful to find a term that doesn't appear to have a different meaning than what is intended.

A list of "true TCM" might also be useful to focus discussion on actual beliefs and argumentation rather than flinging accusations of fallacious reasoning and bigotry at each other.

 

[Knots]

snip

You are making a near-impossible request, especially if we leave it in the hands of someone present in the discussion (myself included). I think it's better to leave it to the definition inherent in the name to decide what is and is not "true" traditional Chinese medicine.

If it's practiced for the sake of treating an ailment (real or imagined) or a perceived benefit to one's wellness and it's practice can be traced back to the beliefs (whether they be valid or not) of the people that inhabited China's geographic location in the distant past, how can one argue that it's NOT traditional Chinese medicine?

One could argue that the ethnicity of the people to which the tradition belongs is more important than the geographic location it was practiced. One could debate the amount of time it takes for something to become "tradition". In the case of traditional Chinese medicine, though, I'm not aware that it matters either way on both counts.

So someone trying to argue that one traditional medicinal practice of the Chinese is not "true traditional Chinese medicine" (rhino horns as medicine, for example) while another traditional medicinal practice of the Chinese IS "true traditional Chinese medicine" (acupuncture, for example) is absolutely being fallacious. Anyone making that argument would be better off making the argument that one is traditional Chinese medicine that's true, whereas one is traditional Chinese medicine that is not true. That would at least not be fallacious.

I'm interested in discussing facts, not tip-toeing around people's feelings. I think djanxo unchained is interested in the same kind of debate. Let's not patronize him, please. Maybe he has a good reason for thinking I'm bigoted he just hasn't made clear, yet. I'm open to the possibility that my statements actually are bigoted, even if I have my doubts. I already explained why I think they're not, anyway.

 

[Cresselia~~]

Owing to the fact that TCM is very different from science, and that it is only taught in some universities-- the general public is very mal informed, and that's why there are a ton of hoaxes and false claims, as businessmen want to get money from rare, endangered animal body parts. (Whilst there are scientific claims that the same results can be achieved from plant parts)

As for what's real and what's not, I suppose the best I can do is to start searching about the university curriculum about it.
I actually am no expert in this discipline neither. I only know that the biology professors sometimes put Chinese medicinal herbs into our biology lessons.
I'm actually a returnee student from the UK, and I just find Chinese medicine and bone therapy really amazing.
So I'm trying lots of "new" stuff. I tried acupuncture last Thursday and it went well.

Re Knots,
What I meant was... you shouldn't deny something until you've tried it.
What I feel is that you assumed that Asia had no form of medicinal practice that works prior to the introduction of Western science. (So how did the Asians survive for so long). I think you imply that there's nothing in Asia that works. That's why I was angry.

 

[Knots]

Re Knots,
What I meant was... you shouldn't deny something until you've tried it.
What I feel is that you assumed that Asia had no form of medicinal practice that works prior to the introduction of Western science. (So how did the Asians survive for so long). I think you imply that there's nothing in Asia that works. That's why I was angry.

I can see why you'd be angry with me, making those kinds of assumptions, so I'm glad to be able to say that you're wrong. It seems as though you feel like, the western world has imposed a lot on Chinese culture, and you don't like seeing a lot of ancient techniques thrown out. If that's true, I sympathize with you a great deal but that is beside the debate.

To speak more to your assumptions, I did not assume Asia had no form of medicinal practice. In fact, it has always been my impression that the ancient Chinese were at least more hygienic than their western counterparts, though I don't have any hard facts to back up that impression. I would be extremely interested to see data showing the average life expectancy of a person living in various ancient civilizations. Even if China did come out looking very good in such a data sheet, you should realize that compared to any ancient peoples, modern people from developed nations live far more hygienically and our life expectancy far surpasses theirs.

Realize also that this need not be an "us vs them" "east vs west" debate. Modern medicine is the ongoing culmination of different techniques and new discoveries from all around the world, China included. You say traditional Chinese medicine has more to teach us. That may be true, and it is for that very reason that many of the techniques you seem to hold in such high esteem are subject to so much rigorous study. The aim is not to debunk or disprove traditional Chinese medicine, the aim is to learn from and improve those practices.

 

[Woodchuck]

What I meant was... you shouldn't deny something until you've tried it.
What I feel is that you assumed that Asia had no form of medicinal practice that works prior to the introduction of Western science. (So how did the Asians survive for so long). I think you imply that there's nothing in Asia that works. That's why I was angry.

I can't speak for Knots, but "you shouldn't deny something until you've tried it" sounds like a terrible philosophy. I haven't tried arsenic, but...
You seem offended that people won't accept TCM at face value and accuse them of bigotry because of it... but all they're doing (or at least, all I'm doing) is asking for rigorous proof that it works. You haven't provided that. Responding to refusals to "believe" in TCM without proof by calling it "bigotry" is like a Christian evangelist responding to requests for proof of God's existence by calling it "blasphemy". It's intellectually dishonest.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I'm starting to wonder if the OP is trolling.

 

[KeldeoJustified]

If they are chinese, tell them 苦口良藥利於病