1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. Please refer to this thread for the current Smogon Tier Lists.
  3. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

HP pixels and percentages, take three

Discussion in 'The Policy Review' started by Zarel, Apr 21, 2013.

  1. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
    Creator of PS

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,695
    So, last time around, we decided to display HP in percentages, in addition to everything that's normally displayed to players.

    But as davidstone and Cathy have pointed out, showing both HP in percentages (their HP out of 100) and pixels (their HP out of 48) is enough information to calculate exact HP (i.e. figure out an opponent's HP EVs and IVs) relatively quickly, since each additional bit of information narrows things down a bit more. This goes against the spirit of displaying percentages rather than the exact HP and max HP numbers in the first place, and I haven't been able to discover a good compromise for that.

    My current proposal, and the one we're discussing, would be, for the opponent's pokemon, to show only percentages (their HP out of 100) and hide information about pixels (their HP out of 48). This prevents others from calculating exact HP more easily than intended.

    We'll call it HP Percentage Mod. It'd be a mod, not just a clause, because we're actually hiding information available to actual game players. As our previous thread indicates, it's not like Wi-fi battles will implement HP Percentage Clause anyway, so calling it a clause was always sort of a farce.

    As before, HP Percentage Mod won't affect VGC, and it'll be optional in custom games, but as part of Smogon's standard ruleset, all other tiers I can think of will have it.
  2. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck you spin mine head right round right round
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 25, 2010
    Messages:
    2,139
    One justification for using percentages was that you could have each player share their HP percentages with the other; how do you justify not showing pixels? For the former, you can still replicate the situation with the cartridge + some "clause" for use in official play, but you can't replicate the latter situation unless you are obscuring the game screen from the view of the player. In my view, being able to calculate exact HP from percentage + pixels is simply a repercussion of the decision to use percentages.
  3. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
    Creator of PS

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,695
    Exactly as I said: by making it a game mod. A game mod can hide information from the game screen.
  4. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    2,879
    While I didn't really like the whole clause thing, it was certainly justifyable. This really is not. Look at the Characteristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame. Its a fantastic thread and the closest thing we have to a mission statement when it comes to making our rules. One of those characteristics is Adherance. While obviously there are some challenges listed there to that characteristic, all of the legitimate challenges are based on what is canon and what is not. There is absolutely no justification for just ignoring adherance.

    Furthermore, not a single one of the other characteristics can be used to justify it either. It does not make the game more Balanced, Efficient, Luck based, Skill based, Stable, Variety filled or Competitive. There is absolutely no positive side to this.

    I certainly appreciate your attempts to appeal to everyone Zarel, but when trying to appease one group of people in a way that makes you change the mechanics of the game itself, you go against the principles of Smogon itself and stop appealing to the greater Smogon community as a whole.

    With that said, I'm not sure I see the problem with reporting both. Just because both are reported does not mean you have to report any more information than that. If people want to calc it out on their own, that is well within their rights.
  5. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Messages:
    2,804
    The obvious solution is to have HP bars that are literally 48 pixels long.
  6. RBG

    RBG It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipsters
    is a Super Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Facebook Manager

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2008
    Messages:
    3,330
    Honestly, I don't really see the "problem" with reporting both. One is game given information, the other is outside given information. If someone wants to use those two to gain extra knowledge, I don't see why we should stop them.
  7. Rhys DeAnno

    Rhys DeAnno Slacking Off

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2009
    Messages:
    142
    Its a matter of convenience. If you're going to let people be able to figure it out, you force them to or else they're at competitive disadvantage against those who do.

    I still think we should go to the logical endpoint of all these percentage discussions and just display exact hp. If 1/100ths are "better" competitively than 1/48ths, how can we argue that exact numbers are worse than 1/100ths?
  8. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Messages:
    3,172
    My sarcasm detector went off when I read your post, but this is honestly the best idea I have seen in any of these threads. It satisfies the pedantic "we must play pokemon exactly or its not pokemon!" crowd, the "let's make the game for us" crowd, AND the "we just want a consistent battle server" crowd. No worrying about clauses or mods or anything.

    So I am seconding this idea: Make the HP bars exactly 48 pixels long. For the sake of in-game accuracy and so this issue can finally be resolved. Then we can stop arguing about fractions, and Zarel, bmelts, etc can get to things that are actually important in their lives


    If the information is given to both players, it's fair. It isn't my fault if my opponent doesn't know how to use the information to its fullest. That is the definition of "competitive advantage"
  9. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Messages:
    2,804
    Well, the problem brought up by Rhys DeAnno is that the optimal way to play might become cumbersome enough that it makes the game less enjoyable as a whole.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)