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HP pixels and percentages, take two

Discussion in 'The Policy Review' started by Zarel, Apr 10, 2013.

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  1. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
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    After much internal debate, we've mostly reached internal consensus on this:

    • HP Percentage Clause - You are told the percentage HP of your opponent's pokemon, rounded up to the nearest percent.
      • Generally, this rule will be automatically enforced in simulator play. In Wi-Fi play, a player is considered to have broken the clause when the player lies or refuses to tell their opponent about the percentage HP of their pokemon.
    edit: to make it clear it's optional in Wi-Fi play, we've changed to:

    • HP Percentage Clause - You are told the percentage HP of your opponent's pokemon, rounded up to the nearest percent.
      • Generally, this rule will be automatically enforced in simulator play. In Wi-Fi play, this clause is usually not enforced. If you would like to enforce it, a player is considered to have broken the clause when the player lies or refuses to tell their opponent about the percentage HP of their pokemon.
    edit: to clarify some ambiguities, we've revised, again:

    • HP Percentage Clause - Whenever your opponent's pokemon's HP changes, you are told its percentage HP, rounded up to the nearest whole number, and then replacing 100% with 99% if it is not at maximum.
      • Generally, this rule will be automatically enforced in simulator play. In Wi-Fi play, this clause is only enforced if both players opt in. If it is enforced, a player is considered to have broken the clause when the player lies or refuses to tell their opponent about the percentage HP of their pokemon.
      • Note that without a third-party judge, it's not always possible to tell if a player is lying, so this may require some trust.

    and it would be added to: http://www.smogon.com/bw/banlist/

    This clause would be applied to all official singles tiers, but not VGC, which obviously doesn't have this rule.

    For those of you who have heard Phil's proposal, this is not Phil's proposal, which would have made this clause optional for ladder battles. Making it optional for ladder battles is a horrible idea.


    Discussion prompts:
    - Is this fine with everyone?
    - Should we make this clause optional on wi-fi battles?
  2. Steamroll

    Steamroll Tasty
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    *glances at OP*

    It's basically PO1's HP reporting system written into a clause, perfect.
  3. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego No matter if it seems so hard, friends are near
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    Would this force wifi players to report the percentages of their Pokemon while playing with people found on the site? Would they be added to the wifi blacklist if they did not? That doesn't sound like it will be taken well with wifi players.
  4. LonelyNess

    LonelyNess PK FLASH
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    I wholeheartedly approve of this clever way to completely eschew all responsibility to adhere to correct game mechanics.

    A+ ^_^
  5. Nails

    Nails EAST 2014
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    Don't quote me on this but I assume you're only required to provide the percentage if asked.
  6. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
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    Yeah, I'm sure some of you already know that I oppose percent HP as a matter of the principle of sticking with the game we play, but that is more of a matter of philosophy than practical concern. On a much more real level, I have misgivings on this because of the impact on Wi-Fi play. I don't play Wi-Fi myself, but I have a hard time believing that community of players would take too kindly to this rule, and spliting the playerbase is a real concern to me. I think it is bad on the most basic level to have two different set of rules for what should really be one metagame.
  7. TheMantyke

    TheMantyke Larvitard
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    I spoke with Nexus, religiousjedi, Toast, and Eiganjo in private and the general consensus was that this clause should be entirely optional or non existent for wifi battling. It'd be extremely difficult to enforce and wifi has lived with no exact percentages for ages.
  8. Toast++

    Toast++ Corrupt Admin
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    As a wifi member and mod, I completely agree with this implementation as it applies to PS! Unfortunately, it is impractical for use in wifi. You have to take into consideration that many people do not do proper damage calculations or do not know how to convert a fraction into a percent. Someone rounding the wrong direction can turn into a big issue. With that in mind, we would prefer if this were a sim-only clause. If you want to play wifi with it, that's fine, but there is little we can practically do to enforce it.


    Edit: To clarify my position a bit, I am and probably always will be in favor of the version that adheres to the game we are simulating. That said, I understand that Smogon itself has, over time, adapted its own, slightly different version of the game - a mod, if you will. Many other communities have done the same. I believe this 'clause' serves its purpose in a way that can be fair to both communities.
  9. yondie

    yondie mitt game strong
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    I'd say make it optional for WiFi and as a response to Jas#####'s it isn't changing the metagame at all... the only difference is there is a slight difference in information reported.

    I'd say this was a great solution to the problem, thanks to Zarel for making it possible.
  10. Fiction.

    Fiction.

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    what are u playing at
  11. religiousjedi

    religiousjedi Destiny likes to use #The in everything.
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    These two speak the truth. Tattle Teller's Paradise is filled with a bunch of faulty posts already; imagine the headaches if users tried to enforce this clause in their battles. We don't have the luxury of reviewing every single match like PS! would be able to.
  12. Hawkstar

    Hawkstar Ascend to holy air and breathe, transcend earthly boundaries
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    I'm still surprised that this was ever a thing. How long has it been that we've had percent HP? A decade, at least? Why is this suddenly (within the past month or two) a huge deal? No one I've ever seen has complained, and as far as I'm concerned, this is business as usual. Having accuracy with regards to the cartridge is important as a simulator, but why can we not have this one acceptable break from reality? Wholeheartedly agree to this clause.
  13. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Yea, I am confused why this sim rule should extend to live wifi play, since Showdown! isn't associated with wifi.

    Thanks for implementing this, Zarel - I think this is what most non-VGC players wanted. Just out of curiosity, how would the HP bar be displayed for VGC games on Showdown!?
  14. RBG

    RBG Got a long list of ex-lovers, they'll tell you I'm insane.
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    I thought it was obvious that this was only being used for the simulators. I don't think anyone planned on having it applied to Wi-fi battles at all.

    Honestly, I'd like it if we just did cartridge HP mechanics and not HP Percentage Clause, but I'm in the minority and not a competitive battler, so my opinion doesn't have much sway.
  15. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
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    Okay, what does everyone think of this phrasing?

    • HP Percentage Clause - You are told the percentage HP of your opponent's pokemon, rounded up to the nearest percent.
      • Generally, this rule will be automatically enforced in simulator play. In Wi-Fi play, this clause is usually not enforced. If you would like to enforce it, a player is considered to have broken the clause when the player lies or refuses to tell their opponent about the percentage HP of their pokemon.
  16. Nachos

    Nachos Smooth; slick; succinct.
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    perfect

    New phrasing is better.
  17. Danilo

    Danilo im a danilo!!!
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    Programmars rock.
    Better clause
  18. Toast++

    Toast++ Corrupt Admin
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    I think we're all ok with the revised version.
  19. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego No matter if it seems so hard, friends are near
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    As long as the option to NOT enforce this clause supercedes wanting to, this sounds brilliant. For example, if your opponent on wifi wants to get the percentages of both pokemon, and you agree as well, but your opponent lies when you've been telling the truth to put themselves at an advantage, then they've broken the clause.

    Big thanks to the PS dev team for listening to a majority of the community and reaching a decision on this. At least VCG will not enforce this, which is good for competitive VCG players.
  20. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
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    I'm still not comfortable with the phrasing, especially since "usually not enforced" is vague.

    How about:

    "In Wi-Fi play, this clause is only enforced if both players opt in. If it is enforced, a player is considered to have broken the clause when the player lies or refuses to tell their opponent about the percentage HP of their pokemon. Note that without a third-party judge, it's not always possible to tell if a player is lying, so this may require some trust."
  21. jrp

    jrp Waves grow frigid as darkness freezes light
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    wholeheartedly throwing my support behind this. Clausing it makes both the devs who try to emulate ingame mechanics as well as the playerbase happy.
  22. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
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    Some more rewording to be more precise:

    • HP Percentage Clause - Whenever your opponent's pokemon's HP changes, you are told its percentage HP, rounded up to the nearest whole number, and then replacing 100% with 99% if it is not at maximum.
      • Generally, this rule will be automatically enforced in simulator play. In Wi-Fi play, this clause is only enforced if both players opt in. If it is enforced, a player is considered to have broken the clause when the player lies or refuses to tell their opponent about the percentage HP of their pokemon. Note that without a third-party judge, it's not always possible to tell if a player is lying, so this may require some trust.

    Notes:
    - "Replacing 100% with 99% if it is not at maximum" is so if you're at 403/404, it would technically round up to 100%, but we'll display 99% so it's obvious that Sash won't activate.
    - Your HP changes many times for multi-hit moves like Icicle Spear. Looking away from the screen will require you to either guess or refuse to tell, resulting in a possible instant loss. For this reason, I assume most Wi-Fi players won't opt in.
  23. Hipmonlee

    Hipmonlee Have a rice day
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    I really dont get this at all. Why round to a percent not a 48th?

    It's inaccurate anyway, 1 percentage point is hardly relevant when that's generally well within the random element of most attacks. If you are going to add a rule that simulates telling your opponents the hp of your pokemon, why not give them the actual hp.

    That way it would be plausibly usable in wifi..

    This just seems like a needless complication.
  24. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    ^You can't do that because then they can guess at your HP EVs which would let them guess your set. Hip, are you forgetting about the importance of EV tweaking in later gens? :P

    But yeah, since you know your own pokemon's HP, constantly reporting a % of that HP is totally workable.

    In any case, I applaud everyone involved in making this workaround, and if everyone is happy with it-- great.
  25. jas61292

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    The real point is not even about knowing HP EVs. Its about the fact that the only argument in favor of this is that people are used to it. The whole "more info" thing is bullshit. If you want more info why are we not disclosing everything about your team? And even if it is just about HP fraction, why out of 100? Sure, 100 is more accurate than 48. But 143 is more accurate than 100. Why not fractions of 143? The fact is, it is arbitrary and really makes no sense. When one of the main things backing it is "its possible in game" and we have a bunch of wi-fi people saying in thread that it really isn't, I fail to see why we would go with this.
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