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Hydreigon (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Calm Pokemaster, Dec 14, 2010.

  1. Calm Pokemaster

    Calm Pokemaster
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    [​IMG]
    Hydreigon

    Status - Done.

    QC Approved 3 / 3: panamaxis, PK Gaming, Bloo
    GP Approved 3 / 3: Zystral, Fatecrashers, Aeron Ee1


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [Overview]

    <p>With a fantastic movepool, wonderful mixed attacking stats, and nice base 92 / 90 / 90 defenses, Hydreigon is a Pokemon to watch out for. It can switch in easily using its good defenses and Levitate, and then punch holes in the opponent's team. It is also one of the few Pokemon who can effectively counter the common Ferrothorn + Jellicent defensive core. However, Hydreigon is severely hampered by its odd 98 base Speed, which leaves it outsped by a host of Pokemon. Dark / Dragon is not a great defensive typing either, as it gives Hydreigon unwanted weaknesses to Fighting- and Bug-type attacks. Still, underestimate Hydreigon at your own peril, as it can easily plough through entire teams if given even the slightest chance to do so.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Life Orb
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Dark Pulse
    move 3: Fire Blast
    move 4: Focus Blast / U-turn
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Modest
    ability: Levitate
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>With its massive base 125 Special Attack, wide movepool, and reasonable bulk, Hydreigon is the ideal candidate for a Life Orb set. Draco Meteor and Dark Pulse are Hydreigon's STAB attacks, hitting common Pokemon such as Jellicent and Reuniclus hard. However, Draco Meteor should not be used recklessly, since the resulting Special Attack drop will force Hydreigon to switch out and give the opponent a free turn. Fire Blast smacks Steel-types switching into a predicted Draco Meteor, meaning that Hydreigon can serve as a great check to Pokemon such as Ferrothorn and Skarmory.</p>

    <p>There are 2 options for the last moveslot. Focus Blast gives Hydreigon perfect coverage, and allows it to demolish Tyranitar and Heatran, OHKOing all but the most specially defensive versions. Heatran also walls Hydreigon's other moves completely, making Focus Blast all the more useful. On the other hand, U-turn makes Hydreigon an effective scout, and also enables it to weaken special walls such as Blissey and Chansey before switching to a counter.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread is a very simple one: 252 EVs are invested in Special Attack and Speed, enabling Hydreigon to hit hard and fast. The remaining 4 EVs are invested in HP. A Modest nature is preferred, amping up Hydreigon's already massive Special Attack. However, Timid can be used to outrun Jolly Darmanitan and, more importantly, Jolly Haxorus. Since U-turn is meant primarily for scouting, the Attack drop from using a Modest nature is of little consequence.</p>

    <p>The biggest problems for this set are the pink blobs, Chansey and Blissey, who wall it to the moon and back. All that Hydreigon can do is weaken them with U-turn and switch out. For this reason, Fighting types such as Terrakion and Trick users such as Starmie make great teammates for Hydreigon. Despite having Fire Blast, Hydreigon will have problems dealing with Steel-types if it has already lowered its Special Attack with Draco Meteor. The removal of Steel-types also allows Hydreigon to spam Draco Meteor more freely without worrying about being forced out. For this reason, Magnezone makes a great teammate, as it can trap and KO Skarmory and Ferrothorn with Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Fire, respectively.</p>

    <p>Hydreigon also has a few alternative moves which it can run on this set. Outrage can be used with a Mild nature to 2HKO Chansey and Blissey. However, Hydreigon will get locked into Outrage and cannot switch out, meaning Steel-types such as Skarmory and Ferrothorn can freely set up on it. If Fire Blast's imperfect accuracy is an issue, Flamethrower can be used instead, though Hydreigon will lose out on a lot of power in that case. Dragon Pulse can also be used instead of Draco Meteor to grant Hydreigon a lot more staying power, but Hydreigon will miss the presence of a powerful STAB move which allows it to hit extemely hard before switching out or fainting. Finally, Expert Belt is also an option to feign a Choice item, allowing Hydreigon to lure in and KO Steel-types.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Dragon Pulse
    move 3: Flamethrower
    move 4: Surf / U-turn
    item: Choice Specs
    nature: Modest
    ability: Levitate
    evs: 64 HP / 252 SpA / 192 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set aims to hit as hard as possible with Hydreigon's huge base 125 Special Attack, which is further boosted by Choice Specs. Draco Meteor and Dragon Pulse allow Hydreigon hit very hard while also maintaining reliability. Flamethrower decimates bulky Steel-types such Ferrothorn and Skarmory. Once again, there are two options for the last moveslot. Surf has a high chance of OHKOing most Heatran, who will otherwise wall this set and possibly gain a Flash Fire boost by switching into a predicted Flamethrower. On the other hand, U-turn maintains offensive pressure. Both moves can be run on the same set, but this is not advised, as it requires the removal of one of Hydreigon's primary moves.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The 64 HP EVs help Hydreigon take Mach Punch from Adamant Conkeldurr, along with other strong priority attacks. 192 Speed EVs give Hydreigon 280 Speed, enabling it to outspeed all neutral-natured Pokemon with a base Speed of 90 and lower. With Choice Specs and a Modest nature, 252 Special Attack EVs give Hydreigon a huge 576 Special Attack. However, if you wish for Hydreigon to outspeed Jolly Haxorus and tie with other Timid Hydreigon, run a Timid nature and 252 Speed EVs.</p>

    <p>Choice Specs Hydreigon punches holes in the opponent's team, allowing a fast sweeper such as Starmie to clean up the remains. However, you need to need to eliminate Blissey and Chansey to let this set reach maximum potential. Powerful Fighting-types such as Terrakion and Conkeldurr make great teammates, since they can dispose of the aforementioned special walls with their STAB Fighting-type attacks. Steel-types such as Skarmory will also pose a major problem for Hydreigon, as Hydreigon cannot switch attacks unlike the Life Orb set. They can freely switch into any of Hydreigon's attacks barring Flamethrower, and set up. Magnezone is thus recommended as a teammate, since it can eliminate Steel-types with ease.</p>

    <p>Dark Pulse is an option over Surf and U-turn, if only for the STAB Hydreigon gains from it. It also hits Jellicent, Dusclops, and Reuniclus hard, but Hydreigon is hard-pressed for moveslots already. Earth Power can also be used instead of Surf, but its only purpose is to hit both Heatran and Empoleon for super effective damage. Surf is generally the better option, as it offers better coverage overall. Getting locked into Earth Power is also a very bad idea, as it will potentially give the opponent a free turn to set up.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
    move 3: U-turn
    move 4: Focus Blast
    item: Choice Scarf
    nature: Timid
    ability: Levitate
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Choice Scarf Hydreigon can function as an effective revenge killer thanks to its great movepool. Draco Meteor is Hydreigon's primary STAB move, and will severely dent or OHKO a large number of Pokemon. Fire Blast has excellent coverage with Draco Meteor, finishing off any Steel-type Pokemon who switch in to wall Hydreigon's STAB Dragon-type attacks.</p>

    <p>U-turn allows Hydreigon to scout any switch-ins. Focus Blast is used in the last slot to hit Heatran, Tyranitar, Porygon2, and Empoleon for super effective damage. Without Focus Blast, Hydreigon will struggle to damage the aforementioned Pokemon significantly since its other attacks are not boosted by its item. For this reason, Focus Blast is preferred over Surf. While this set could use all the power it can get, Flamethrower may be used instead of Fire Blast if Fire Blast's inaccuracy is worrisome.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>252 EVs are invested both in Speed and Special Attack, while the remaining 4 EVs are put in HP. A Timid nature helps Hydreigon outspeed Jolly Choice Scarf Haxorus, which can prove to be crucial. Since U-turn is meant mainly for scouting purposes, the Attack drop from using a Timid nature is not an issue. Using either a Hasty or a Naive nature will lower Hydreigon's defenses, and is thus not advised.</p>

    <p>Dragon Pulse can be used as a reliable STAB option instead of having to rely on Draco Meteor as Hydreigon's only Dragon-type STAB attack. A moveslot for the same can be created by dropping U-turn. However, keep in mind that Hydreigon will lose the ability to scout switch-ins and maintain offensive pressure, which is important on just about any Pokemon with a Choice Scarf. Special walls such as Blissey and Jellicent will wall this set cold, weathering Hydreigon's unboosted attacks with absolute ease. A stallbreaker such as Thundurus will thus make a great teammate for Hydreigon, as it can deal with the aforementioned walls with a combination of Taunt and either Hammer Arm or Thunderbolt. Once again, Steel-types can set up on Hydreigon provided they avoid Fire Blast while switching in. Thus, Magnzeone also makes a good teammate, as it can trap and finish off Skarmory and Ferrothorn easily.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Hydreigon has the defenses to run a bulky support set consisting of Thunder Wave, Dragon Tail, Taunt, and Substitute with a defensive EV spread, but it would be a waste of its offensive potential. Moreover, such a set would face severe competition from MultiScale Dragonite, who has better defensive stats and access to Roost. However, such a set would work well with entry hazard support.</p>

    <p>Charge Beam is an option to boost Hydreigon's Special Attack and attempt a sweep, but its inaccuracy can cause issues. Moreover, the SpA boost is not a guaranteed one. Hydreigon also has a usable base 105 Attack, along with a physical movepool consisting of Crunch, Outrage, Earthquake, and Head Smash. It can put these physical options to great effect by surprising its normal counters and running a mixed set.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Hydreigon's counters are few and far between, as with its good defensive stats, Hydreigon can take just about any neutral hit and retaliate with a strong attack. However, its weakness to common Fighting-type attacks and average Speed will ultimately be the bane of its existence. With its typing and Flash Fire, Heatran walls Hydreigon lacking Surf, and can 2HKO Hydreigon with Dragon Pulse. Special walls such as Chansey and Jellicent can easily wall the Choice sets, and wear down Hydreigon with Seismic Toss and Ice Beam, respectively.</p>

    <p>Specially defensive Conkeldurr can take any attack which Hydreigon throws at it barring Choice Specs Draco Meteor, and KO Hydreigon with a combination of Drain Punch and Mach Punch. Speedy Fighting-types such as Infernape and Terrakion can exploit Hydreigon's average Speed and KO it with their powerful STAB attacks. However, these Pokemon have to be careful when they switch into Hydreigon, since they will take massive damage from Draco Meteor.</p>
  2. R.B.G.

    R.B.G.

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    I thought this was written by reyscarface already?
  3. Setsuna

    Setsuna Prototype
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    No. That is an Uber analysis.
  4. Higsby

    Higsby

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    Here are some theorymon ideas. I haven't actually played with these on the PO. Constructive criticism welcome.

    Name: Mixed Hydra
    Sazandora @ Choice Scarf / Life Orb / Expert Belt / Choice Specs
    Nature: Mild (+Sp Atk, - Def), Hasty (+Speed, -Def), Naïve (+Speed, -Sp Def)
    Ability: Levitate
    140 Atk / 136 Sp Atk / 232 Speed
    -U-Turn
    -Earth Power / Dark Pulse / Thunder Wave
    -Flamethrower / Fire Blast
    -Draco Meteor / Dragonpulse / Outrage / Dragon Tail

    Set Comments:
    -I prefer the Scarf for hit and run tactics. A scarfed U-Turn is better than a Sazandora with health missing imo
    -This Ev Spread is just to create offensive bulk
    -Earth Power opens up SE hits on Electric, Fire, Poison, and Rock types instead of Just Ghost with a Dark type move. This loses out on STAB though.
    -On this set, Dark type is only hitting Ghosts for SE dmg, so Thunder Wave is optional in order to outspeed the opponent if not running a Choice Scarf.
    -Expert Belt hits 8/17 types for SE with Dark Pulse, or 11/17 types with Earth Power, or 7/17 types with Thunder Wave.
    -Optional to run 252 Sp Atk / 252 Speed with Timid or Modest, but then U-Turn might not OHKO threatening Psychic and Dark types.
    -As is, 140 Atk U-Turn will do 80.5%-94.8% to 0 defensive Alakazam
    -Threatens Nattorei with Fire-type move and possible forces a switch into a balloon Dory/Tran. A well-placed U-Turn can pop the balloon so the next time Nattorei comes in, Predict the Tran/Dory switch accordingly and use Earth Power.
    -Sazandora's Flamethrower decimates most Nattorei Forms.
    -Minimum Sp Atk Ev investment in order to kill Sassy 252 Hp / 252 Sp Def Nattorei with Flamethrower (NOT Fireblast)
    - Expert Belt: 236-252 Ev's has an 80.8% chance to OHKO
    -Choice Scarf: Without entry hazards, Sazandora cannot OHKO with a Choice Scarf.
    However, with 236-252 Ev's, it will do 81.8%-96.6% damage
    -Life Orb: 152 Ev's to ensure OHKO
    -Choice Specs: 0 Ev's (always OHKO)


    Name: SubMent
    Sazandora @ Leftovers
    Nature: Calm (+Sp Def, -Atk)
    Ability: Levitate
    236 Hp / 16 Sp Atk / 252 Sp Def
    -Substitute
    -Torment
    -Protect
    -Dragonbreath

    Set Comments:
    -Can be physically or specially defensive. Use Bold for physically defensive sets
    -236 Hp Ev's gives 384 Hp which gives optimum Leftovers healing (24 Hp per turn) and creates 96 Hp Subs
    -Dragonbreath is chosen because it has a 30% chance for paralysis
    -The idea is to torment the foe in hopes that they only have one SE move which they can only use when you are using protect. Sub on the next turn when the opponent attacks with a non-SE move, or they might switch out, in which case, use Torment on the recently switched in opponent.
    -Try and paralyze anything and everything with Dragonbreath
    -2x weak to Ice, Fighting, Bug, Dragon
  5. Dark_Pokemon

    Dark_Pokemon

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    Roar works

    Although I am not going to fool around with EV's I have found this Sazandora set to work very well:

    Sazandora - Dora the Explorer
    @ life orb or leftovers

    - Roar/Dragon Tail
    - U-turn
    - Flamethrower
    - Draco Meteor

    This set actually helps out stall teams. They switch in their Dora counter only to be Dragon Tailed/Roared out (thats twice hit by residual damage). Whatever is left in risks being hit by Draco Meteor or Flamethrower (neutral vs all but heatran). If they finally DO get a decent counter in by outpredicting you, you can U-turn if you are faster. Try it out.
  6. Karutemo

    Karutemo

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    U-Turn
    Surf
    Fire Blast
    Draco Meteor

    Provide great coverage!
  7. Higsby

    Higsby

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    This provides SE coverage for only 10/17 types (grass, psychic, dark, fire, ground, rock, ice, bug, steel, dragon). I'm not sure about neutral coverage. I guess it all depends on what you want to hit for SE.
  8. Calm Pokemaster

    Calm Pokemaster
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    @Higsby and all other theorymonners: Thanks for the enthusiastic help; I am going to start the write up soon, and some of your suggestions will surely help me out.
  9. Xav

    Xav

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    I have found my favourite set to be a Specs Set.

    Sazandora @ Choice Specs
    Timid - 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    -Dragon Pulse
    -Draco Meteor
    -Fire Blast
    -Surf / U-turn
  10. Higsby

    Higsby

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    No problem. I can't wait to see what you come up with :)
  11. Afti

    Afti

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    No Torment set is something that should be corrected; SubTorment Sazandora is fantastically hard to kill thanks to its typing and natural bulk.

    Also, please post some logs of the Cheer Up set; I'm not buying it, myself...
  12. Shnoogle

    Shnoogle

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    A set that I have tested and that works exceptionally well is an Expert Belt set.

    name: Expert Belt Lure
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Surf
    move 4: U-Turn
    item: Expert Belt
    nature: Timid
    EV's: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    You easily bluff a choice item if you lead with U-Turn, and even when you don't use U-Turn the lack of Life Orb damage leads many people to thinking you have a Choice item. Fire off a Draco Meteor and they switch in Skarmory, then Fire Blast to take it out =)
  13. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Hi.

    I'd like to see Lee's Life Orb wallbreaker set written (preferably the #1 set)
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3027920&postcount=151

    Sazandora @ Life Orb
    Modest
    4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    - Draco Meteor
    - Fire Blast
    - Surf / Taunt (my own addition)
    - U-turn

    This set differentiates Sazandora from other Dragons. There are literally only 2 Pokemon in the entire OU metagame that can reliably switch into Sazandora (Chansey and Blissey) everything else is demolished by Draco Meteor / coverage move. The Cheer Up set is just terrible on him... you should scrap it or make it the very last set.

    The ordering imo should go:
    1st Lee's wallbreaker set
    2nd Choice Specs
    3rd Choice Scarf
    4th Cheer Up

    The mixed wallbreaker set is outclassed by mixed Salamence.
  14. symphonyx64

    symphonyx64 Private messages are the best way to reach me
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    It should be holding a Choice Scarf.
  15. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

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    I think Modest nature and an alternative EV spread deserves some mention on the Specs set. Here's the set I run:

    Sazandora@Choice Specs
    Modest; 64 HP / 252 SpA / 192 Spe

    Surf
    Fire Blast
    Dark Pulse
    Draco Meteor

    Disregard Dark Pulse, I have it over Dragon Pulse because it deals with Bloongell and random Meta/Jirachi more easily. The EV spread is what we're focusing on here.

    326 / 221 / 216 / 349 / 216 / 324 - Current Spread
    341 / 221 / 216 / 383 / 216 / 280 - My Spread

    My Sazandora carries a bit more bulk and significantly more attacking power than the spread onsite, which is to be expected from Modest. The additional HP let it survive the following a bit better:

    -Roohpushin's +1 Adamant Mach Punch (my set always survives, onsite can be KOd with rocks).
    -Doryuuzu's +2 Jolly Return (onsite can be OHKOd with rocks).
    -Scarfchomp's Jolly Dragon Claw / Double Chop (Onsite is always KOd with rocks, can be OHKOd without sometimes. Mine has a 25% chance to survive with rocks and is never OHKOd without).
    -Gengar's Timid Focus Blast (see Garchomp).
    -Metagross' Adamant Meteor Mash + Bullet Punch (mine has lower chance to 2HKO).

    You get the point. Minor things, but they could help in the long run. The question is, are these circumstances worth the loss of speed?

    Mine has 280 speed, while Timid Sazandora has 324. We are concerned about +90s, neutral 100s, neutral and +95s, and neutral 105s.

    Honestly, there is nothing really running +90 these days. Lucario hardly did it last gen and it has no point to do so this time around with all our ToxicFling Scor's running super defense. Roserade? Uncommon, and it doesn't want to switch into Sazandora anyway as all it can do is sludge bomb or sleep powder. Lol Porygon-Z.

    Base 95s (both neutral and positives, as mine outspeeds neither), boil down to basically Gliscor, Arcanine, and I guess Hihidaruma. Neither of the former two can really switch in (and Arcanine needs CC to do anything, really), and Hihidaruma is demolished even by Fire Blast. SD Gliscor that mean to sweep rather than BP are even rarer.

    Base 100s are either running max speed these days to tie with one another (if offensive), are Jirachi and have Thunder Wave or a Sub (and came into a DM / Pulse anyway), or are running a defensive nature with 36 spe EVs for Jolly Tar. Zapdos, Tenta, Jirachi, Celebi are the latter, while Manaphy (Hydrarest > Timid Sazzy), Offensive LODos, Salamence, and Shaymin-L are the former. Ulgamoth fits in both depending on the set and will be able to revenge anyway.

    Neutral 105s - what are those? Mismagius and Zoroark. Mismagius will flee as she can't really do anything but Will o Wisp, and Zoroark has to land a Focus Blast. I'd say those are pretty good odds.

    Then there are those random troll numbers that are outspeeding you regardless or have the bulk to take a hit: Garchomp has Scarf and is always Jolly, Landlos will crush you on the switch or RP on you, etc. You lose to a few random things like Ononokusu now but you have five other team members.

    In exchange, you get a bit more bulk for pinch situations, enough speed to still do your job, and a Specs Draco Meteor that outshines that of Latios (who is forced to run Timid and even then the masses are clamoring for its banishment to Uber).
  16. Calm Pokemaster

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    @Afti-SubMent Sazzy is indeed very hard to kill, but I have given it a mention in Optional Changes, since using it only as a Torment staller wastes its offensive potential.

    @Shnoogle-I am mentioning Expert Belt in Optional Changes.

    @PKGaming-Thank you, I have been searching for Lee's set for quite some time. Forgot that it was in UT. Anyay, I am replacing the current wall-breaking set with Lee's LO set.

    @symphonyx64-Thanks for pointing it out.

    @Icyman28-The only thing I am concerned about, is the fact that you lose the ability to revenge Ononokus, but those locked into Outrage can be taken care of easily by stuff like Nattorei and Skarmory. As such, I am editing the Specs set with your suggestion.

    THE CHEER UP SET WILL BE SCRAPPED, but I am leaving a mention in Optional Changes.

    Changes will be made in a short while. Thanks for all the suggestions and help.
  17. Afti

    Afti

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    The same argument could be made for Heatran, but in either case it does the job well enough that this is a totally viable option, not outclassed by other things. Sazandora may have a great deal of offensive potential, but I would argue that the fantastic Dark/Dragon typing gives it just as much defensive potential, and this shouldn't be nearly ignored to focus on one facet of the Pokémon.
  18. Calm Pokemaster

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    All right, I shall test out the SubMent set, and get back to you later, Afti. If it works well, I shall certainly add it to the analysis.

    The other changes have been made. Feel free to point out any other mistakes / changes you would like to see in this analysis, people.

    EDIT-Nah, Sazzy can't mono-attack with Dragonbreath / Dragon Pulse, and requires a lot of T'Spikes support to manage even one KO with SubMent stalling. QC member panamaxis is of the same opinion as well. So no, unfortunately there won't be a SubMent set.
  19. Shnoogle

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  20. Calm Pokemaster

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    Thanks for pointing it out Shnoogle, there was a power cut where I live, due to which all of my previous edits were deleted. I am currently trying to edit the misplaced comments for the sets. More work for me, sigh...
  21. Pokémon Trainer R

    Pokémon Trainer R

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    As I explained here, I believe that Focus Blast on Sazandorah is a far superior option over Surf and especially Earth Power, and thus I believe it should be at least mentioned in the movesets.

    Here is my favorite moveset for Sazandorah, a pure special attacking moveset with Life Orb instead of Choice Specs, as I believe that on a Pokémon like Sazandorah, the ability to freely select different attacks is a massive necessity, as it will very often find itself needing to weaken something (usually a bulky Water-type Pokémon like Vaporeon) with Dark Pulse before finishing it with Draco Meteor.

    Sazandora (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Dark Pulse
    - Draco Meteor
    - Flamethrower
    - Focus Blast
  22. Chubbs

    Chubbs

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    Ok, well, at the end of the first comment on the top set, you put: "doing at least 35". This needs to be amended to "35%".
  23. monkfish

    monkfish what are birds?
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    in the choice scarf comments:
    "<p>The same EV's are used for this set as well; however, since there are no physical moves, Modest is the preferred nature. Timid nature is required to outspeed neutral natured base 100 speed Scarf users.</p>"

    ...? (I think the first sentence refers to the -Atk aspect of the nature rather than Modest specifically)
  24. panamaxis

    panamaxis Allons-y!
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    Quality Control Approved 1/2
  25. Nosferalto

    Nosferalto We're all gonna make it
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    and hits Ballon Heatran, which is the primary reason why Surf is probably better in that slot.

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