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I cannot think of a snappy title o.k?

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by ginganinja, May 11, 2011.

  1. ginganinja

    ginganinja Call me and I'll come
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    Or

    [14:40] <Frizy> [12:18] <&makiri> i beat my dick like it owes me money
    [14:40] <Frizy> Best rmt title

    Introduction

    Yeah o.k so this is the team that I have been using recently (no its not the “anti” weather team I talked about in the suspect thread) and its worked really well. I reached the Top 50 with this team which in itself is not a great achievement but considering I hardly ladder at all, im a little proud I guess. No-one really knows what to call teams of this type (some call it stall, balanced, semi stall) but regardless its served me well and I share it to you.

    Team Building Guide

    [​IMG]

    This team was built around SDef Heatran. This (in itself) is hardly unusual for me seeing as I end up running SDef Heatran in all my teams. That said, I really wanted to test Roar Heatran as, try as I might, I had not yet managed to make a truly great team with it.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Yeah I needed a Spiker and Skarmory fitted the bill. Also I kinda hated Ferrothorn (with fire moves being thrown everywhere) and Skarm walled those Physical attackers which was another plus.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I wanted a Water Type and Rotom W was just awesome burning everything and ripping apart some Rain Teams with this STAB Thunderbolts.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I was both CM and Reuniclus weak so I needed that fixed. I decided on SDef Scizor to help out with this which was very useful. Basically it gave me a second switch in to Latios and also gave me the opportunity to run Max Defence Skarm since I did not need it to take repeated DMs

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Gliscor was kinda standard really, It gave me a second check to Excadrill which I felt was important since Skarm could do fuck all to it anyway. It also let me check Conkeldurr which looked a bitch against this team.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I added a Thundurus since with a Nasty Plot and the Spikes I had it could very easily clean up my opponents team. Also this was the original team and like all the others… it kinda sucked. It was very Rain weak AND Rotom W would like 6-0 me which sucked.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    O.k this was the team after I tried fixing it. It still had issues with Rotom W but I had Ferothorn so it was kinda alright. Gyarados also gave me that second phaser I lost in switching Skarm to Ferrothorn so that was all good. I also got a physical wall in Gyarados and the team looked good

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Yep got boned by Thundurus and despite me losing mainly to a Speed tie I saw how weak I was to it and went with an SDef Jirachi to patch that weakness up. Jirachi also gave me Wish support which was always nice I guess.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Yep here we are, the big huge change. I had managed for long enough without a spinblocker but I decided that I really needed one so made the switch to Jellicent. Jellicent was not that bad either and it still let me burn shit which was nice. Also, I finally had a damn near perfect core, the thing at the back of my mind for so long. Heatran + Jellicent + Ferrothorn were damn near perfect together. In addition, one of the main issues with FWG cores are its general weaknesses to Dragon Types (which was why FWG teams spiked after Salamence and Latias left the Gen 4 Metagame). I had no such problems with 2 Steels in my FWG core so it was kinda like a core within a core which was pretty nice.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I was Rotom W weak. That was the face of it and that weakness annoyed the hell outta me. I finally added Latias since it could actually take a hit while sponging those Water and Electric attacks.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    That was the team for a long time but recently, when I looked over the team I realised that Jirachi was doing nothing. Dragons were already checked without it and everything bar Heatran and Ferrothorn had recovery (and Ferrothorn had Leech Seed I guess). I was also finding it deadweight against offensive teams, not really doing anything and against Stall teams it would suffer. Fuck all countered Thundurus but after a while I tried Quagsire as a laugh and found it actually worked quite well. Maybe not brilliantly but much better than Jirachi. With that, the team was complete.



    The Team




    [​IMG]

    Heatran (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Lava Plume
    - Protect
    - Roar
    - Stealth Rock

    This is hands down one of the best sets out there that Heatran can run. With Latios being rather common in the metagame steels such as Jirachi, Ferrothorn and Scizor have all risen up to check it. Heatran can switch into all of them and set up Stealth Rock. Later in the game it can switch in on them again and get my phasing game going. Protect and leftovers give it so much health back its amazing while Lava Plume is there for burning shit (even though it like never burns for me). The real magic of the set is the Evs which I don’t see often enough. 252 HP and 252 SDef let it switch into pretty much any special attack, take a hit and dish one back out. Like for Christs sake it survives a Specs Latios’s Surf. It also serves as my Primary Volcarona check (Quagsire also works but loses if Volcarona gets an SDef Drop), can take a hit and roar it back out, increasing hazard damage on it. Provided I don’t play like an idiot, Volcarona should never been a problem.

    [​IMG]

    Ferrothorn (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 48 Def / 208 SDef
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Power Whip
    - Leech Seed
    - Protect
    - Spikes

    This is the second part of my FWG core. While Heatran can check most Sun teams Ferrothorn can check Rain. Ferrothorn is also my primary Spiker as it gets up as many layers on teams with Rotom W or choiced dragons. Many things hate a STAB Power Whip and I love hitting Jellients when they attempt to Taunt. Ferrothorn usually has to worry about its massive Fire weakness which hampers its ability to set up and continue to wall. However with Heatran I can switch in on many things that might otherwise annoy Ferrothorn and then Roar them back out. Leech Seed is there on Ferrothorn to steal a bit of healing and I know from experience it’s a bitch to switch into SR and a layer or two of Spikes and THEN get seeded. Protect just makes Ferrothorn a bit more of a bitch with Leech Seed and allows me to scout choiced opponents and if my opponent has a surprise Fire move.

    [​IMG]

    Jellicent (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Cursed Body
    EVs: 252 HP / 208 Def / 48 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Taunt
    - Recover

    Ah yes this is the Spinblocker. Jellicent was originally put on the team “just to spinblock” but it has since served the team well with Will-o-wisp crippling those Physical threats. Scald is there to spread yet more burns as well as giving me a STAB attack. Taunt is used sparingly but its nice against Forretress which cannot spin and cannot lay hazards. Taunt also lets me block Chansey/Blissey from healing and helps break up stall teams as they can no longer heal to offset the hazard damage. Recover is a no brainer, letting it heal up after taking repeated hits and still acting as a spinblocker if a spinner is present. Its Cursed Body though,. That really frustrates my opponent as having there attack disabled can often grant me a free Recover or the chance to hit the next switch with a Burn. The Evs are standard I think but I run a little more speed to get the jump on other Jellicents trying to Taunt me. Seeing as I have the special side of things covered Jellicent may as well go physically defensive to mixed wall better and take a physical hit when needed. Jellicent also completes the teams FWG core while also serving the key purpose of backing Rapid Spin which would remove all my hard earned hazards.

    [​IMG]

    Gliscor (M) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Fang
    - Taunt

    Yeah I needed an Excadrill check (and other fighters) and Gliscor was perfect. Poison Heal lets it last for a while while Swords Dance threatens a late game sweep. With hazards up, I can beat Jellicent down with a boosted Earthquake if its becoming a problem. Taunt also prevents Skarmory from phasing it away as its turned into set up fodder. Gliscor also serves as my main physical wall which is why I tend to keep it back if I can see that I need it for something. For example against a Sand Storm team I often need it to beat Excadrill and as such it needs to be in high health. Ice Fang is really there to hit other Gliscor and maybe Dragons and Flyers on the switch. I’d change it to Façade if opposing Swords Dance Gliscors were not so common. Again the Evs are pretty standard I think to better take hits while running a fair bit of speed to try and get the jump on other Gliscor.

    [​IMG]

    Quagsire (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Unaware
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Curse
    - Recover
    - Earthquake
    - Waterfall

    Yeah this is Quagsire and it might just be the thing I am most unsure on. Granted, It can sweep teams and act as a last ditch effort to prevent some crazy booster from overwhelming me but other than that I tend to use other things to beat the things it checks. On the other hand it does serve as a nice check to Thundurus which is very threatening to this team, as well as checking Volcarona and Reuniclus. As far as the moveset goes, its pretty standard. Curse is to boost up to make physical hits sting a bit less while Recover is to keep me in tip-top health. Earthquake and Recover are general STAB attacks which get nice coverage on things. Of course with Ferrothorn and Rotom W being so damn common it’s hard to get a sweep with this guy. On the other hand I did want this slot to have some offensive power and I don’t see any other option. Its Ev’ed to take those special attackers better seeing as that’s what I rely on him for.

    [​IMG]

    Latias (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Recover
    - Roar

    Ah yes. Latias might not be the star of the team but it does a damn good job. Latias is thee really to help counter Rotom W which is such a bitch to the team. its also the teams second phaser and (unlike Heatran) has reliable recovery to make it last a bit longer. Calm Mind makes it threatening over a long period of time and it can sometimes go on a mini sweep once the opposing team has been weakened enough. However despite all of this there are cons to using Latias. The biggest issue is that its pursuit weak which makes it slightly tougher for it to phase quickly. As such it draws in Tyranitar and Scizor. Scizor is not too bad as I can always double switch to Tran and get double hazard damage on something (or just KO it) but Tyrantiar is a rather large bitch to this team if I don’t manage to burn it or if it drops to 50% or lower (then Gliscor can revenge it). Having said that, luring in T-Tar is not such a bad thing when you have Roar to force it back out again and Roar is so good for actually crushing Skarmory. Skarm cannot phase me (seeing as I am faster) which is frustrating for my opponent as I can often get my phasing game quicker than my opponent. Lastly, Latias has wonderful speed, letting me revenge things like HP Fire Latios and Garchomp if they are becoming problems


    Conclusion

    I kinda like this team although it has a really nasty habit of getting the worst fucking hax known to man. Despite this, its been a fun team to use and while not being my strongest team, it can still be very good provided I use it well. Anyway that’s the RMT and feel free to rate, steal or whatever.
  2. Dezza Laa

    Dezza Laa

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    Hey,

    I like this team, and I dn't see much giving it trouble at all.

    While there isn't anything hurting you I would like to suggest a few changes to some of your sets.

    Firstly I suggest a spread of this for Ferrothorn:
    Nature: Impish - EVs: 248 HP / 4 Atk / 96 Def / 160 SDef
    I dn't know exactly what the EV's are for but a friend recommended it to me and it has worked better for me than that current spread of yours. I guess it'll help with taking physical Outrage's from the likes of Garchomp...

    Secondly have you ever considered TormentTran? Seems like a fine addition to your team. It doesn't technically phaze the opponent but most times it acts as a pseudo phazer.

    Lastly is Specially Defensive Quaggy. While I would like Quaggy to serve as a mixed wall I think that his underwhelming special defense stat just won't work. I suggest changing him to physically defensive or switching for a specially defensive Clefable. It doesn't have as good typing as Quaggy but fulfills what you're attempting to do with Quaggy a whole lot better.

    GL
  3. Delko

    Delko
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    Hi man

    Fought this team and it's pretty good.
    But I would like to suggest that you try the specially defensive Jirachi again, instead of Quagsire. Not only will Jirachi counter pokes like CM Virizion, it can also provide Wish support so Heatran, and to lesser extend Gliscor and Ferrothorn can stay healthy.

    Hope this suggestion helped, good luck with the team ^^
  4. Birkal

    Birkal We have the technology.
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    Hello!

    I have nearly the same Quagsire that you do. If you're not finding many uses for it, you might want to consider adding Yawn to a moveslot! Upon using it (with its 100% accuracy), you put your opponent in a tough spot. They're either have to switch out or be forced to sleep while you bring in a new threat to set up or take it down. The tough part is deciding which move you'd want to ditch; Curse would be my recommendation. Just a thought.

    Your team looks pretty solid! I like it.
  5. AB2

    AB2 is an absolute ape
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    Hey this is a really solid team although trick room reuniclus is going to give you quite a few problems as none of your team members enjoy a life orb'd psychic | focus blast | shadow ball. Although Latias stands somewhat of a chance, you're going to have trouble if it starts spamming shadow ball, especially if it catches you at low health. Stallbreaker Mew seems like it could be annoying to this team, especially if Mew is running more speed than Gliscor to stop you from setting up. Mew can get really annoying as it prevents a lot of the members on your team from doing their jobs as well as weakening your core for a sweep with another teammate later in the match.

    First of all, I agree that you should probably retry running Jirachi over your Quagsire. This allows you to take down pretty much all forms of Reuniclus as well as check latios much better than you're currently doing. Although Quagsire is a really amazing mon, it seems to be the weak link of the team in that most you have most of what it checks completely down already. Most stat boosters are already taken care of by Gliscor and Latias, meaning that you can leave the stress of this task to other members of your team. Jirachi also checks similar theats that Quagsire does such as Thundurus quite well meaning that the support that it provided will not be missed in the switch back to Jirachi. A small suggestion on Gliscor would be to run 252 HP | 176 Def | 80 Spe which allows you to outrun 4 speed mew and Taunt it. Mew can be a problem to this entire team if you don't have a few 'mons that aren't faster than it, and with Gliscor and Latias in conjunction with Jirachi, Mew should be perfectly in check.

    Other than that, this is a really nice team, good luck.
  6. WZOwnage

    WZOwnage

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    Hey nice team you build here! I do recommend Quagsire have this moveset though:

    Quagsire
    Leftovers
    252 HP 252 SpDef 4 Def/Atk
    Chesto/Lum Berry
    Rest
    Curse
    Waterfall
    Earthquake
    This set uses defense to let Quagsire build up his defense and rest up while your opponent cant do a thing. The EVs are meant to let Quagsire survive and get off a few curses before resting up.

    The rest of the team is amazing as I struggle to find a weakness.
    BTW how do you get the moving Pokemon sprites??
  7. yee

    yee
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    Nice job here, it is rare to see a good team that doesn't use weather. Everything looks fine, although you are still weak to Rotom-W in my eyes. Not only because WoW, Pain Split and SS damage are super annoying, it also opens up a hole for certain threats to break through. In particular, boosting grasses, like NP Celebi with 3 attacks and CM Virizion have a much easier time breaking through your team. Pair those up with Tyranitar and the cookie cutter sand team thats EVERYWHERE will be extremely annoying and tough to win against.

    However, I am having a lot of trouble thinking of a way to keep these combinations at bay. I would've possibly suggested Specs Gastrodon to further your defense against Rotom-W, but he needs weather support to work well. Latias doesn't have room for Refresh, my only idea would be to run Substitute to block status and keep it pursuit safe to take on the problem pokemon later, after hazards have weakened Tar/Scizor. This forces you to give up Roar, and this may be a big deal, as direct damage is your plan instead of stalling with Toxic Spikes. I believe Quagsire can set up in the face of Bold Leftovers Reuniclus which is the only common set so thats still well covered, I would consider it as an option to help preserve Latias, although it isn't perfect.

    Good luck with your team, its refreshing to see a retro strategy put together so well in gen 5!
  8. ginganinja

    ginganinja Call me and I'll come
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    o.k lotta rates here to sort through

    @Dezza

    -o.k ill test out that Ev spread although I never stay in on Chomp with Ferrothorn (60% Power Whip is far to unreliable)
    -Ill also test the more physical based Evs on Quagsire although it does leave me more vulnerable to Volcarona and Reuniclus
    -Torment Tran looks good however I lose out on SR which id really like to have on this team and i am not sure where else to put it

    @Yourself

    Hmm yeah Yawn does look useful. I'll give it a test but likely if I go with Yawn ill probs drop EQ for encore of something and just go for an average annoyer.

    @AB2

    I Kinda agree that TR Reuniclus looks troublesome however despite me comming accross it its never been too much of a problem. Both Gliscor and Jellicent can Taunt and I have Heatran and Ferrothorn to Protect to waste away turns. Quagsire can switch in on Focus Blast and Shadow Ball (and Trick Room) and recover stall it out while threatening to be faster with Curse. Lastly I guess I can play around with my teams synergy. Personally Recover + 3 Attacks Reuniclus is more troublesome as I probs have to CM up with Latias as really my only answer. Stallbreaker Mew is annoying although Heatran can wall it and give it a nice Burn (also after a Flash Fire boost I believe I 2KO so its tough for it to stall me out). It is annoying though so I will run those extra 4 speed Evs if you think they will help.

    You are correct that Quagsire is my weakest link and Jirachi I guess could work over it. My main issue is that I did try Jirachi for a very long time and it never meshed. Latios is already checked well enough with double steels and a Latias which outspeeds (provided it runs HP Fire) Reuniclus is checked pretty well by Latias. The thing I mostly used it for was Thundurus (which is a problem) but other than checking Thundurus it was a dead weight. Skarm, Gliscor, Excadrill, Chomp all set up on it and it was becoming more of a hindrance. Wish support was nice but then again, Heatran really only needed. When I realised Jrrachi was really only being used as Sac Fodder I switched it out. So I guess thats why I am reluctant to switch back because it was a deadweight if Thundurus and maybe Reuniclus were not present. Any other time it was Sac fodder. Since 2 People did suggest it I will give it a retry but I really wish I had a Thundurus check not called Jirachi since it was underwelming when I used it (or at least the SDef set was).

    @Delko
    Jirachi suggestion discussed above

    @WZOwnage
    I think I will stick with Recover thanks. Rest only really protects me against Status and when im sleeping I am vulnerable to my opponent spamming powerful attacks while I am unable to lessen the blow with Curse.

    @yee

    Rotom W I feel is handled well enough by Ferrothorn and Latias although yes, Tyranitar + Virizion or Rotom W is annoying. I will test out Substitute but I am unsure as to how it helps me. every time T-Tar switchs in I lose 25% of my health and become more weak to TR Reuniclus. Also I still lose to Volt Switch Rotom W (which lures me in and gets Tar in for free) or just double switching. Still, I will give it a shot
  9. yee

    yee
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    mmm, I never like using Ferrothorn to handle Rotom-W because it just burns it every single time but that could work. Im still kind of worried about breaking dependency on Latias for walling Celebi or Virizion because of that Pursuit weakness, I know it is hard to win against them because I used a stall team that had 3 of the members of this team and I tried to rely on Latias on rain teams. My best suggestion at this point is to run Reflect on Latias to help preserve her. It also helps against Landorus who can do a lot of damage. Im stuck in a "check everything" mentality which obviously doesn't always work based on your team's results with Jirachi. In an ideal situation, you can safely handle these threats without giving up Roar on Latias. Expect me to put a lot of thought into this because I always have the same problems with my teams lol


    Edit- I overestimated Celebi, apparently they dont always have 3 attacks, NP and Recover so you handle them just fine. This leaves you with Virizion to handle so I would recommend Brave Bird Skarmory to safely handle all variants and maintain your spiking strategy. You gain yet another phazer, a Sandstorm cockblock and IMO one of the best pokemon in the game, especially for a team like this. Sorry to disrupt your FWG core but im going to recommend it over Ferrothorn. This doesn't seem to mess up too much synergy, although rain may become more threatening. Quagsire's slot may be used to help with this. Here's the Skarm I would use-

    252 HP/136 def/96 spD/24 spe Impish
    -Spikes
    -Roost
    -Whirlwind
    -Brave Bird

    Lowers stress on Gliscor by walling all of the sandstorm threats, which could possibly break through otherwise if used in tandem. Plenty of defense, so I add spD for weak attacks, this survives two specs meteors from Latios and isn't 2hkoed by fire blast Garchomp. You will likely want to use more spD to suit your team, but probably with an Impish Nature in the end. 24 spe outspeeds Wobbuffett.

    Gastrodon can replace Quagsire as your defense against Rain teams if you want, I would run the standard tank set. (near max spD, self explanatory moves). Scald/Recover/Ice Beam/Yawn (just to be cruel). Earth Power and Surf are solid other options, as well as Toxic to lessen your problems with Jellicent. This also ends the threat of Thundurus.

    Good luck again!
  10. jabberjabber8.1

    jabberjabber8.1

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    on jelicent i would of thought will-o-wisp made scald redundant.
    I normally go with
    - recover
    - taunt
    - toxic / will-o-wisp
    - surf

    You get a nice power boost off surf and a 100% burn or poison chance off toxic or will-o-wisp. (personally i prefer toxic)

    Very nice team by the way, I am loving heatran
  11. Delko

    Delko
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    Scald can get the burn despite Taunt, making it still a viable option, and it's not like the little extra power from Surf is important.
  12. Stunt

    Stunt

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    Over Burungeru, I would suggest something that would cause opposing stall teams to perish as opposed to yours. Here is a set that could be game breaking if used correctly:

    Misdreavus @ Eviolite
    252 HP/ 144 Def/ 112 SpDef
    Bold Nature
    - Protect
    - Mean Look
    - Perish Song
    - Pain Split

    Upon forcing the switch of a rapid spinner, Misdreavus can use its amazing bulk to remove 1 pokemon from the opponents team (or even 2) . Usually stall teams depend on a certain synergy between their pokemon, so destroying 1 of them can create a winning case.

    I have not tried this yet, but the team I am currently making is so similar that I'd like you to consider this.

    oh, and it also deals with your problem with baton pass teams now that BP espeon is released.
    hope this helps!
  13. ginganinja

    ginganinja Call me and I'll come
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    Hey man thanks for the rate

    Unfortunately I don't see how on earth I am Baton Pass weak when I have Quagsire to ignore there boosts and phasers in Heatran and Latias if needed. I also don't think im *that* stall weak with Latias to speed shuffle and two excellent Taunters in Jellicent and Gliscor

    Changing Jellicent to Missy would also cause me to lose out on a lot of bulk. Thanks for the Rate though!
  14. Stunt

    Stunt

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    well quagsire still loses to BP celebi even with unaware. Ingrain passing as well as BP espeon causes roars to be useless.
  15. KTVX

    KTVX

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    I haven't given a close look to the other rates, so I don't know if this was suggested earlier, but I think a mixed Quaggy wall IS possible with Stockpile, since it boosts both defenses. You could then use Recover, either Yawn or Toxic, depending on wether you want to shut down sweepers or other walls, and then Surf, Scald, or Ice Beam, maybe EQ, but that means many pokemon will be immune to it. Also I'm pretty sure someone pointed that out already, but those 4 Spd EVs are useless. I'd put them in HP or in the offensive stat you'll use.
    Other than that great team!
  16. Stunt

    Stunt

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    At a second look at this team, it is close to beings stall's finest this generation.
    I tried to pull off a better team, and changes led me to this exact team.

    Weaknesses include Band Tyranitar Pursuiting off Jellicent + Latias, causing issues to Mienshao with HP ice. Other weaknesses include hyper offense with hazards.

    I'll try to find a way to solve this, but good job on this team :)




    .. still baton pass weak tho >________________________________________________>

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