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Gen 2 I redid the GSC tiers

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by havoc, Jul 14, 2010.

  1. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
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    We didn't have hardcore usage stats back in the day like we do now. In fact, we had no usage stats until Advance generation and even those have been lost to board purges and stuff. The old tiering was done more on perceived power than actual usage numbers, which we didn't have back in the prime of GSC (or RBY). Even BL, which is still a power-centric tier (UU's banlist) even as we moved to usage-based tiers, was not used as a holding ground for things broken in UU -- though they may have been broken had we given them a chance. BL is a hold for legendaries and pokémon that are otherwise considered to be viable for OU, regardless of how often they're actually used in OU.

    The concept of "NU" doesn't exist. OU is the only serious metagame, so you're either OU or you're not (BL/UU). UU isn't a flourishing, fleshed-out metagame the way it is for DPP now. It's a sideshow that people sometimes do for fun to escape the monotony of OU, not something that people base their pokémon "careers" off. UU never truly existed as its own metagame, so there was no need for us to conjecture over the "UU of UU."

    Blagh blagh blagh history lessons... At this point in time, we may well say that's wrong. We should re-do the tiers! However, the metagame of past generations simply aren't active enough any more to really get an accurate picture of a healthy metagame. There's not much that can be done to change things as they stand... other than, apparently, the opinion of havoc and his ability to access and make changes to the site. ;[

    Also, free jumpluff and f u havoc thinking Raikou and Starmie are clearly better than Jolteon and Alakazam, respectively (especially the latter). >:o But yo, Borat bro, Gengar does pretty much outclass Misdreavus at everything. Misdreavus is only marginally better at exactly one thing -- Perish trapping -- and it's arguably less effective at that due to the sheer predictability. (i.e. Misdreavus is so incompetent at doing anything else, that's the only thing to expect when opponents see it.)

    Hmm, one of my old UU teams... Meganium, Slowbro, Arcanine, Nidoking before Lovely Kiss, I recall perhaps Steelix as well... But oh, that last spot I simply cannot recall at all. :(
  2. Borat

    Borat

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    Coincidently, the changes aforementioned (Ampharos and Clefable, Typhlosion's a little more debatable) still make sense using this definition. Albeit it would require moving Jumpluff and Smeargle to BL as well. Also, Tauros and Aero go back to UU, and either one of the Kangaskhan/Ursaring group. Still don't like it...

    Two different takes on perish trapping I would think. Gengar, you didn't have to p-haze because of EQ/Psychic weakness that could so easily be capitalized. However, Gengar's strength's, as you've said, lies in its unpredictability. You won't (and shouldn't) find out it's a ptrapper until it's too late. Missy functions moderately better as a spin block, giving you slightly more leeway than Gengar's "I die in the face of Psychic Starmie", but it's also a debatable role. Being offensive versions in GSC isn't at all a good thing.

    I'm tired of people always doing things because "it's the way it's always been". So what? That's why I don't like zam in GSC, generally fueled by "historical" arguments. And it carried over to RBY apparently. Why are you guys so against creating a UU metagame, however improbable it may be? We already have a couple rogue posts stating so-and-so's community, isn't that what you're looking for?
  3. havoc

    havoc pottlepalooza
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    I said that standard teams strategies match risk with reward, or that the gap between risk and reward isn't big. for example, I consider Explosion teams, which I love, high risk medium reward, but if I built a standard team around, say, Ursaring instead of Snorlax, we move into "very high risk, medium reward." the "very" is important.

    I'm suggesting that, as a compromise, we make the UU tier consist of most of the BL tier along with the "better" UU pokemon, something like:

    UU list rough draft (open)
    aerodactyl
    articuno
    entei
    espeon
    golem
    houndoom
    kangaskhan
    kingdra
    lapras
    moltres
    muk
    scizor
    smeargle
    tauros
    tentacruel
    ursaring
    vaporeon
    ampharos
    arcanine
    bellossom
    chansey
    clefable
    dodrio
    electabuzz
    gyarados
    gligar
    granbull
    hitmontop
    hitmonlee
    hitmonchan
    hypno
    jumpluff
    kabutops
    lanturn
    magmar
    magneton
    meganium
    nidoqueen
    omastar
    piloswine
    pinsir
    quagsire
    qwilfish
    raichu
    slowbro
    slowking
    typhlosion
    venusaur
    victreebel


    and then put the rest as NU. it's a very rough draft, but as I've been saying, I think a BL tier excludes pokemon just as much as not having a NU tier. like Ursaring. if you're in OU, you'd use Snorlax. if you're in UU, you can't use Ursaring. so even though Ursaring is a good pokemon, it'll never get used.
  4. Charlie Brown

    Charlie Brown

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    Wait, so you're still sticking with 3 tiers, but instead of a 2/3 being usable (OU/UU, with BL a mess), you end up with essentially 1 usable tier (OU). UU is a mess, and what the hell is NU? Why would you have one if you don't aim to make a balanced UU tier? And let's be fair, your list is very "exaggerated". The true list is much shorter. The whole family of hitmons? I don't think so, Hitmonlee at best, but probably all 3 would fall under NU. Hypno? With all these new delicious special walls from BL? Probably not. Magmar/Arcanine/Entei competing with Typhlosion? HAH! Grounds competing with a near-OU level Golem? Nope (you can argue, "but wait, they have ice/water/flying attacks!" but be honest with yourself, it's Golem for fuck's sake), maybe Sandslash, but that's a personal bias. Raichu/Magneton vs Ampharos? I don't think it'd be too hard to choose. And everyone mentioned are EXTREMELY formidable UU pokemon, probably some of the best classic UUs. Would moving them down to NU make sense, despite being some of the best "true UUs"? Because that's where it "logically" belongs with this list.

    So, this again begs the question, why do you continue to deny my changes? They're simple, they're shorter (something like 5-6 changes, not completely revamping the logic of GSC), they follow the same concept (since you're going with the 3 list tier anyway; and you're acknowledging that some Pokemon are just better than others). You seem to be wanting something different for the sake of wanting something different. You agree with my logic, but not with my changes?

    What's so wrong with BLs being a "messy" tier? You don't have to create every tier to be used. There was no uber meta, yet there's always an uber tier. It's quite literally 4-5 changes, changes that still keep every "rule" in the book. Yet these changes would bring so much balance to the UU tier. And plus, BL is "balanced" enough anyway, no less "balanced" than your new chaotic list. In fact, with my changes proposed, it should tell you what'll be OU in an OU meta, what'll be OU in a BL meta, and what'll be OU in a UU meta (assuming an inconsequential NU list is made) to some ridiculous degree of accuracy. That's what I always view the tiers as anyway.

    Some pokemon just have to face their own innate inferiority. Going back to the previous example: Dodrio, who in his own right, is probably one of the best UU pokemon. However, Tauros, one of the worst "BL" pokemon, one that'll never legitimately be used in ANY OU team, outclasses it in every way. How is that fair? Moving Tauros to UU (where it belongs if BL didn't serve as a "banlist" for UU) would instantly knock Dodrio into the NU tier. And it's also hits other similar pokemon, pokemon that could compete with Dodrio but just falls under the weight of Tauros (Granbull comes to mind). And what once were "walls" in UU, are laughable punching bags for the BLs.

    Unless you literally create a 160 [or whatever] tier system, there's NO WAY to guarantee the use of EVERY pokemon. "As much as possible" should be what you're striving for. Tauros won't be used on anything other than OHKO teams, or Ash theme, or whatever. Everyone knows that. You can't justify the use of Tauros at the cost of 3 other UUs. Get rid of Typhlosion, keep Magmar/Arcanine/maybe Entei. That's a winning proposition, how do you not see it?

    More diversity is ALWAYS healthy for the game. And that doesn't just happen as direct replacements. You have to consider other factors as well. While Golem isn't a direct replacement for Piloswine/Quagsire/Gligar, the tradeoffs are just not worth using anything else. Furthermore, having something like Charizard in UU completely changes the metagame and eliminates diversity to scary levels. It's impossible for UU to use anything other than Electabuzz, Vaporeon, Slowbro, and a couple others to stay competitive, despite Charizard playing a completely different niche from say, Qwilfish, Victreebel, and Scizor.

    BL = BanList? Subtle inception? Mindfuck.
  5. .Maguss.

    .Maguss.

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    IMO, BLs are UUs for the standard meta, and Ubers for the "UU meta" (or just a UUxUU battle, if you prefer that way). No one will care if you use an UU team with Tauros/Ursaring/Clefable/Porygon2/whatever BL to play against an OU team. Its an UU team for the standard meta. Being BL or UU doesn't matter here. Get my point?

    Otherwise, if you plan to make a UU team to play against other UU team, then this is where BLs appear. You can't use them because they unbalance an UU battle, exactly how Ubers do in the standard meta. There is a great difference in making a UU team to play against an OU team and other to play against other UU team.
  6. havoc

    havoc pottlepalooza
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    without any kind of testing whatsoever? after basically 3 years of DP play, and after all these people have played the game, and after thousands of hours of collective playing (more than in GSC's entirety), with all the intelligent battlers in DP (certainly more than the number of intelligent GSC players even in GSC's prime), we're STILL making major changes to the metagame, eg. recently declaring Salamence an uber. the internet community did the same for pokemon in RSE. GSC doesn't have the resources to do that. that's why we still have so many questions lingering: is Snorlax uber? is Celebi uber? is Ho-oh uber? is Sleep Perish Trapping broken? what's UU and what's not? we may think we have the answers, and we may THINK we have all the scenarios planned out, but until we actually go and do something about it, it's one person's opinion against another's.

    I said in the beginning, I'd MUCH rather just have two tiers, but I'm trying to acknowledge the fact that people feel it's necessary to have three. I feel like if we had to distribute the BL pokemon into either OU or UU, there'd be little debate as to what goes where. which is what aggravates me in the first place.

    you feel this away about the BL pokemon; I feel this way about a lot of the UU pokemon, many of whom none of us have ever legitimately used more than once, max. I feel like if there was ever genuine interest in a GSC UU metagame, these pokemon would have been explored further. the problem is, like I said: whatever happens, there's going to be a group of pokemon that are basically never going to be used. I want to exclude one group, you want to exclude another. the way I see it, yeah, we're following the same logic, and there are two possible conclusions to reach. we just chose different conclusions.
  7. .Maguss.

    .Maguss.

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    So why you open that topic and pleased for opinions? With your opinion prevailing over the others. That doesn't make sense.

    All changes we'd make for the new tier will be all based on theory. If you really want to change the tier (like you did), everything should be based on theory, as you said the GSC metagame is dead and we can't test those things. You can't use that argument to defend your own opinion should prevail over the others.
  8. Charlie Brown

    Charlie Brown

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    There were definitely less than a handful of "intelligent" GSC players, they were all followers. I'd cap that number at 2-3 max. GSC's "prime" was pathetic.

    These are all pretty simple answers IF we had a definitive definition for what a uber is. And most of those resisting change are doing it for nostalgic reasons, not on a purely objective basis. Snorlax IS uber based on power, Celebi probably isn't (albeit I've always been on the fence about Celebi, since I wasn't partial to it myself, but I hated played against it). Snorlax is not uber based on "traditional" definitions, Celebi is. Ho-oh is debateable uber based on power. Sleep trapping is bannable, as much as OHKO is. What's UU and what's not, I've defined. I don't "think" I have answers, I know I have answers.

    And yes, "without any kind of testing whatsoever", I still stick to my "theorymon". There might be small unaccounted for changes, but for the most part, I believe my list will hold accurate. And isn't that the point anyway, to make a rough draft? And sometimes, my opinion is good as fact.

    In your list, here's a rough estimate of what will be used:

    Espeon
    Golem
    Houndoom
    Kanga/Ursa (this is where my "theorymon" experience limits itself, I'm not sure which will prevail, perhaps only Tauros)
    Muk
    Moltres
    Lapras
    Tentacruel
    Vaporeon
    Ampharos
    Clefable
    Electabuzz
    Meganium (questionable)
    Qwilfish (questionable, probably not though)
    Slowbro
    Typhlosion
    Tauros (in an environment without Skarmory/Forretress, Tauros becomes awesome)

    There's no reason to use anything else. And my, doesn't that hold a STRONG RESEMBLENCE to a BL list? So essentially, all you've done is rename BL to UU. Call it my opinion, but when people want to win in this environment, they won't be using Pinsir and Gyarados.

    I know you have the intelligence to make extremely accurate estimates like this. Why are you so afraid to do it? Why leave nothing to theory? Theory saves you a lot of time, and for the most part, extremely accurate coming from experienced minds. At first, people might experiment with Pinsir, or Scizor, or whatever, but over time, they'll start using the better Pokemon. This is the truth. You say you need "testing"? WHY? Would YOU use Dodrio given Kanga?Ursa? Would YOU use Gligar? Granbull? Hitmonchan? Bellossom? We don't NEED testing to rule out these. And IF you do use something like say, Arcanine, it's probably because of a personal bias. It's an INFERIOR pokemon to Typhlosion/other sweepers.

    It took DP 3 years to make one change. Whoop-dee-fucking-doo, what does that prove? It proves the original creators of the list were pretty damn accurate, DESPITE not having the knowledge like we do today. Our goal here is to create a rough draft of what we (as experienced players) think will be used/not used/overpowered. It can be modified after. However, I'm willing to bet 90% of the list will remain no matter who's participating in the UU/BL community BECAUSE we have that knowledge. Or at least I do. I'm not sure if you do if you're considering Bellossom and Hitmonchan in the same sentence as Golem and Espeon.

    BL pokemon can still be used in whatever makeshift BL meta. In your system, UUs, good UU, are technically NUs. So the only time they would be used is in a hypothetical NU meta. What's more likely, a BL meta or a NU meta? I thought so. Plus, all you're doing with this change is renaming BL -> UU, and UU -> NU. And those newer to the game would clearly play the "UU" meta, despite it truly being a BL meta. Perhaps it's best to call it UU-division I, and UU-division II? Because that's the only way to technically keep 2 tiers (OU and UU), while ensuring that people will play UU in all its glory? Yeah, that idea is every bit as idiotic as your "compromise".

    What exactly do you have against these changes?

    Smeargle to UU
    Ampharos to BL
    Clefable to BL
    Meganium to BL
    Typhlosion to BL
    Aerodactyl to UU

    Because Ampharos is "historically" UU? Isn't Salamence "historically" OU? It doesn't seem like you're making a consistent argument here, if any argument exists at all that is.

    I'm not saying change BL to mean something different, the whole "BL becomes an ubers list for UU" is just a [positive] byproduct of change. BL pokemon still have their historical BL definitions (power/usage).
  9. Charlie Brown

    Charlie Brown

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    Touching back on a few arguments made earlier in this topic:


    Yes, I would say that today. "Isn't as profound" is a comparative phrase, such as in "your accomplishment 'isn't as profound' as if a real UU defeating standards". Would you disagree with that statement? I doubt it.

    Players like McGraw and Locke realized the potential of these "misplaced UU" pokemon and took advantage of it. They deserve the praise as INNOVATORS, for realizing there are some UUs were just as good as OUs, but should NOT be praised based on sheer skill. They founded the BL tier, so to speak, especially Locke. These teams were UU from a subjective point of view (factoring in time/history), but BL from an objective point of view (power/potential).

    With our knowledge of the power gap today between BL/UU, would you TRULY say a team of Usaring/Slowbro/Houndoom/Golem/Tentacruel/Jynx vs Qwilfish/Magneton/Dodrio/Gyarados/Hitmonlee/Piloswine is fair?

    Isn't that kind of stupid? To make a new list for each tourney, a list that would probably replicate itself from tourney to tourney. A list that could essentially be... THIS list. Because if not, what's the purpose of THIS list? A snapshot of 2003?


    From your other topic:


    I don't think there could be a more ignorant argument. "This hasn't existed, therefore it never will exist". In fact, I'd argue it HAS existed and it ALWAYS will exist. People had UU teams, therefore, by definition, UU play existed.

    A more appropriate argument would be "there were NEVER active efforts to regulate UU play." Isn't it time? It's 8 years overdue.

    Could you clarify why he'd be "mistakenly" thinking that? The way I see it, it's the exact opposite. He's "correct" in thinking that.

    And again, isn't that argument you're making here a historical argument? "Ampharos, who has always been an underused pokemon". Historical arguments are inherently disproved on the very logic of the existence of this topic.

    This is a direct translation of YOUR argument. Let me know if it makes any sense at all:

    I'm not getting a consistent argument out of you, which makes this whole thing kind of a handful to understand. WHAT, exactly, are you trying to say?

    Insufficient testing? Well we need a starting point. This is a starting point. Let others test and make changes, it's our jobs as experienced players, to make a good foundation. My changes do that.
    Historically "always has been"? This is a bullshit argument. This topic exists for a reason: change. Actually, that's not the right word. Evolution. Adaptation. Maturing.

    Anything else I'm missing?
  10. Icy Vegeta

    Icy Vegeta

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    Redoing GSC tiers is pretty much hopeless as we simply can't put out enough raw data to make decisions. Our sample wouldn't be near large enough.
  11. Charlie Brown

    Charlie Brown

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    It bugs me when these newer players come out with arguments like "raw data". What? Fuck that. I don't need an in-depth statistical analysis of inferior players and what they use to tell me what's overpowered and what's not. Plus, there would probably be a gross ratio of bad players to good players, hence discrediting whatever "proof" the data would've held. Furthermore, isn't it clear that the BL/UU list will NOT be based on usage?

    I'm balancing the tiers based on the upper echelons of each level of play. Aerodactyl, Primeape, Ninetales, whatever, might see play in these lower-level matches, but when do we EVER design a tier based on what shitty players do?
  12. Icy Vegeta

    Icy Vegeta

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    Newer players? Pardon me if I don't post to often in this section but I have played GSC for quite some time.

    Let me rephrase my prior post when I said, raw data. In actuality the amount of serious, intelligent players is very low meaning that only a very select few people would have influence in the decision. For an example, lets say I was the only player in RBY play this month. I used Magikarp, Caterpie, Oddish, Pidgey, Onix, and Rattata. Obviously we would not make the tiers reflecting that, but then decisions would be narrowed down to effectively Theorymoning what would be good based on past experiences.
  13. Charlie Brown

    Charlie Brown

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    And the problem is? It wouldn't be accurate? Wrong. For all intents and purposes, it'd be very accurate because these "select few people" are a very good representation of what's best combined with what's most current. Even if it wasn't, then it could still be changed. That's the point. We're not making anything concrete. In fact, this is nothing more than another change. Players years from now can make more changes.

    The point is, the list today is inaccurate. It's outdated. I want to update it. havoc wants to update it (at least I think he does). That's the point.

    "Past" in this case would be "current". GSC hasn't changed from what I left it (anyone is free to correct me if I'm wrong in ANY part of this declaration).

    And once you're experienced and stupidly knowledgeable about the game to a certain point, it's a step passed theorymoning. It's knowing.

    Again, no one here is able to make concrete arguments (e.g. singling out a specific pokemon and saying "that doesn't belong there"). These general formalities are a weak argument to begin win, and a bitch to confirm/deny. Stop making them.
  14. havoc

    havoc pottlepalooza
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    the whole purpose of this thing is not to "post a snapshot of 2003." the point is to try and combine what we know now about GSC while still reflecting its history. for example, I've been editing a lot of GSC pokemon analyses because they're just out of date; many haven't been changed since they were originally written--5, or even 6, years ago--but I wouldn't change Tyranitar's analysis and say that the TB/DP/Crunch/Pursuit set "is Tyranitar's standard moveset" just because it's been popular recently.

    I just want to get things right. Jumpluff is just not OU, for example; I don't think Jynx is either. but I also don't think Lanturn is BL, and I'm actually surprised that people have actually cared enough about this to post. As you said Charlie Brown, there were no efforts to regulate UU play in 8 years; I honestly just think that if no real effort has been made to regulate it in 8 years, why start when, IN MY OPINION MIND YOU, GSC has been reduced to basically pure theorymon since no one plays it anymore? I still haven't had any more people who actually play come and protest based on their actual experience. I see that you're saying "since we're already practicing theorymon, we should take it to the next logical step and try," but our theorymon has been limited to the OU metagame that we've played forever, not the UU metagame that, I still contend, has never existed.

    first off, I don't enjoy being talked to condescendingly; though I don't agree with some of the things you've said, I certainly wouldn't call it, or you, stupid.

    second off, people had UU teams, but they were mostly made with standard play in mind. people could play UU x UU, sure, but when these teams were made, I don't think the people made them with "I'll never have to worry about countering Snorlax because he's overused," etc. I never did, I distinctly remember a UU team I made with such facemelters as Raticate, Hitmonchan (who is awesome), Lickitung, and Gligar, but if a UU team wasn't able to take on standards (mine could), it wasn't a good UU team.

    I'll revert some of my changes since I understand what everyone is saying, but I will say a couple of things:
    Chansey can switch in fairly easily to Typhlosion, it has plenty more trouble against Magmar and Arcanine.
    Bellossom's stats are pretty comparable to Meganium's, plus it gets Sleep Powder and Stun Spore, which Meganium does NOT. it can't use Reflect+Leech Seed like Meganium, but it can paralyze/sleep something.
    I have used Dodrio on the same team as Ursaring, and I think it holds its own just fine.
    Growth Venusaur is pretty awesome when the Fire types are out the way.
    Tauros is a beast, but Aerodactyl is a good counter for it in UU. does that make Tauros UU?

    EDIT: as per Tauros being UU, probably not.
    changes made again, check OP.
  15. Charlie Brown

    Charlie Brown

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    For years, I've given you nothing but respect in the past in every regard. And just for the record, I didn't call you stupid, I called your ideas stupid. This is how I prefer to be on the interweb anyway. Deadpan doesn't convey well through text, nor sarcasm. But point taken. Apologies.

    Not precisely. It's not too hard to take out what makes OU... OU and develop a new meta in mind. Without Skarmory, EQ + DE is stupidly good (hence, I don't believe Tauros belongs in UU). Without Snorlax and Raikou, plenty of pure special attackers can see use. An overall increase in speed is expected without Blissey/Suicune/etc. And given the lack of legitimate spikers, as well as the aforementioned increase in speed, spikers shouldn't be as popular. Following that, it's not too hard to pick out the "clearly superior" pokemon. Doubts about slowbroking/electabuzz/chansey, but that remains to be seen.

    It depends how special oriented or physical oriented the game becomes. It's clear chansey shouldn't be used as a beller, but it's not like it can't use reflect/counter/stoss/twave/sing/anything without stupidly good results. And just for the record, Typhlosion gets DP.

    Meganium can switch into gear with SD + Body slam/EQ, which nothing in UU resists. SP is its only redeeming point over Meganium, but Sleep powder isn't too powerful when the opponent as their choosing of who you sleep (a non STAB SB or STAB razor leaf isn't scaring anything), worsened by the fact that Dodrio's probably the best sleep talker anyway. And true Bellossom can SD + SB/HP Ground, but really now, it's just a completely inferior Meganium with nothing to help its case.

    DP/DE is infinitely inferior to EQ/DE. DE/DP both resisted by rock/steel, eq/de has no weak (especially minus skarmory). Furthermore, Dodrio packing double 220s def off 323 HP.

    Venusaur was on my debatable list last recall. I agree, especially when you consider his "unpredictability" in being a physical sweeper as well.

    Tauros mentioned. In fact, in UU, I'd argue Tauros is better than both Kanga and Ursaring. But in BL, he's worse. :( Kanga's probably the best out of the three in OU/BL play.

    So I signed on for the third time yesterday in probably 3 years (and it took some time, given the registry). For about 6 hours time, there were rarely fewer than 5 GSC players on at any given point, with another 5 or so "potential" GSC players (players with GSC teams). At one point, I counted 12 GSC players, and another 4 with GSC teams. There were no tourneys, there were no "gatherings", it was just an average day.

    Hell, GSC is no less popular now than it was 3-4 years ago (aka, not very popular, but not dead either). And I retract my previous statement, battles aren't exactly the way they were before. Not necessarily better, but definitely different. Bait-explosion has really caught on (!). Vaporeon has become a legitimate threat that is considered by teams (!!). And I've yet to face any spikers not with a ghost backing it (!!!). LK lax and FB drumlax are the norm (eh). GSC is almost everything I've envisioned it too be. Too bad it's just not as fun to play anymore. So at the risk of ruining my own GSC experience, I'll stick to fantasizing theorymoning.

    Edit: I'm not too sure, perhaps someone who still plays can confirm?

    Vaporeon to OU
    Alakazam to BL
  16. havoc

    havoc pottlepalooza
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    the Typhlosion problem is: what are you putting Dynamicpunch over? its Fire Blast/HP Grass/Thunderpunch/EQ set is really good, but you'd lose coverage over something like Quagsire. perhaps that spawns more diversity.

    Curse/Rest/Roar/Return Kangaskhan is still totally legit. if you don't have that Growling Miltank or I guess Umbreon, Kanga can be scary.

    I left Aerodactyl on BL because it's almost like a Skarmory--it even gets Reflect. but we shall see. I want to make some UU or BL teams and try them out if we could somehow get a little group together...if.
  17. Charlie Brown

    Charlie Brown

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    Thunderpunch. I don't understand that move. Anyway, it's not important. Typhlosion isn't UU.

    Kanga should probably have BS for most sets. Paraing Miltank means it takes a +1 everytime. DE should always be considered before Return tbh.

    I don't mind Aero being in either.

    Try asking? UU tourney or otherwise? It's actually surprising how many people will turn up if you simply make an effort to get word out there.
  18. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
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    Arcanine is better than Typhlosion and probably Houndoom too, yo. In fact, Typhlosion isn't that great at all and I don't know why Charlie Borat keeps bringing it up as some sort of super facemelter. :(

    You know, I tried to make a team to take advantage of Growth/BP Vaporeon recently, to use in lieu of my real team bewteen SPL matches (so less scrupulous individuals would not be able to scout as easily). Maybe it's just me but Vaporeon felt like a worthless piece of shit. The only way it can differentiate itself from the otherwise completely superior Suicune is to abuse BP but it's too slow to pass, for example, before getting its face blasted by the Raikou just switched in. Using Substitute basically just drains 25% of your health for no real gain unless you block an Eggy status move with it. Getting outsped by Nidoking and lacking Suicune's bulk to switch in on it is also a real bummer.

    You're insane here.
  19. Borat

    Borat

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    No way dude, Arcanine totally isn't? HP ground loses water coverage, grass/electric loses rock/other fire types coverage. Unless you mean something neutral like DE? Off that sweet 318? I'd still relegate it to UU. Seems awesome there.

    Vaporeon isn't splashable, it requires at least another 3 dedicated to it. And BP will fail without his siblings Jolteon and Espeon. Or at least one of them. Even then, that still requires team dedication. Vaporeon can't and shouldn't be used like Suicune.

    And let's face it, based on usage (aka to eliminate our respective biases), Vaporeon is a hell of a lot more popular than Zam. People actually try countering vaporeon and legitimately consider it a threat when building a team. Bleh, I don't think Zam has been OU for about half a decade now.
  20. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Woah, GSC tiering on Smogon completely changed. Havoc you have complete control over the GSC tier list? Huh.

    Either way I'm pleased because Typhlosion and CO rightfully being OU give a lot of UU pokemon a chance to shine. (Arcanine, Magmar etc) are people going to partake in GSC UU matches soon?
  21. Loki

    Loki like seashells
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    I support vaporeon going up to ou, it is quite popular on nb nowadays. At least certainly more than similar "low-tier" ous like zam and even rhydon who's usage has basically fallen off a cliff since SPL unbanned hp legends.

    Suicune is completely superior as a defensive pokemon but that's not how vaporeon is being used at all. Vappy is one of the best "win-condition" pokemon around (I'm talking about aa/growth/surf/rest here). It needs support to work as mentioned above but is very effective at what it does provided certain pokemon are taken care of.
  22. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
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    I'm not sure what "the appropriate changes" would be, since the only ones really arguing about it are those two guys disagreeing with each other on various things... And surely you mean BL, since Typhlosion and Co. aren't OU in any sense.

    The response I expected, and fair enough... usage isn't power, though I'm not actually that's true that Vaporeon is even used more because who the hell uses it any more than they do Alakazam? I've seen neither one at all lately, between my SPL opponents and the randoms that have challenged me a few times here and there, except for the Alakazam on my own team. Earthworm told me he saw a couple 'Zams from others, though. *shrug*

    Alakazam is a lot better than Vaporeon anyway. AA/Growth/Surf/Rest as a self-sufficient pokémon is hardly a huge threat itself, between the Electrics, 'Zam, Suicune itself (Roar varieties), Eggy, just to name a few things that all stop it cold no matter what...
  23. Borat

    Borat

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    I've never said Vaporeon was self-sufficient. I have said the exact opposite though. Quote: Vaporeon isn't splashable, it requires at least another 3 dedicated to it.

    Apart from Snorlax [and probably the HP electrics], what is a "self-sufficient" offense? Marowak? Not anymore.

    Electrics get exploded on with some regularity by Gengar and Egg, not to mention it's not exactly hard to paralyze either one of them (at which point, Surf's 2HKO is pretty damn threatening, and it almost a guaranteed kill with a screen passed). Suicune doesn't do anything should Vap be the last one left. Anyway, AA is hardly the standard, there are several versions. Varies from IB, Sleep Talk, and Roar. IB handles eggy just fine, ST does as well if it doesn't pack drain. And of course, Roar (which I don't like) gets rid of Suicune. AA beats curselax, and drumlax (that's not to say, switch it into one) but yeah, pick your poison. And ideally, you should have most of the team supporting Vaporeon and his counters.

    I'm not going to mention zam, or I'd might as well acknowledge haze Kingdra, Ampharos, and Lanturn as legitimate counters.

    Vaporeon is at the point where it's being actively countered. When, in Zam's lifetime, has it ever been considered threatening enough to need to counter? That says something. Zam thrives off others not preparing for it. I don't think any team actively considers zam in the building phase (e.g. stun spore egg), which zam capitalizes off of. I'd wouldn't even say he's "better" than Vap's cousin Espeon, but in a different way obviously.
  24. green_flash

    green_flash

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    typhlosion may be really good, though it hardly goes through water types (even hp grass does somewhat insufficient damages). not to mention it will never get past gyarados/mantine if it doesn't sport thunderpunch, nor arcanine or lanturn if it lacks eq... nonetheless, i'm pretty conveinced that "counterable in a certain tier" nowhere means "belonging to a certain tier" (ESPECIALLY in gsc). as such, i'm not expressing about typhlosion's gsc status as either bl or uu.


    unbanned hp legends... what? hope you'll have fun running light screen blissey in every single team. at least on quite a number of nb servers you'll get banned right away just for showing off one of those. which is plain awesome.
  25. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
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    There was never a reasonable basis for having them banned in the first place and it wasn't even a standard rule until later on in GSC's prime. How is Hidden Power Jolteon any more "fair" than HP Raikou/Zapdos? Raikou hardly runs Hidden Power at all anyway.

    Light Screen Blissey is a boss anyway, sets up Marowak like a champ.

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