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BW OU I used to hate Rain Dance... (Peaked #4)

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by shrang, Dec 24, 2010.

  1. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Okay, here's a rain team RMT. In 4th gen, I hated rain teams. They were boring to say the least. However, since Manaphy looks like one of the most screwed Suspects this round, I really wanted to use the time to abuse my favourite version, Calm Mind Manaphy with eternal rain in OU with the newly released Dream World Politoed. With that in mind, I decided to create the following team:

    Team at a glance:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    Team in Detail:

    [​IMG]
    Nattorei (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SDef
    Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
    - Power Whip
    - Gyro Ball
    - Stealth Rock
    - Leech Seed

    At first I really didn't want to use Nattorei because everyone else was using it, but it won me over in the end. It was possibly the only thing that could set up Stealth Rock on my team and not get murdered by Kingdra. Everyone should know how this thing works now. I used the Ubers spread written by mtr, so Nattorei can take a lot of abuse from both sides of the spectrum. Gyro Ball is Nattorei's most powerful move against lots of Pokemon, while Power Whip nails Pokemon on opposing Rain teams. I needed Stealth Rock in the team somewhere, and since Nattorei is the only one that can learn it, I gave him the pleasure. Since Nattorei hasn't got any really good recovery options (he'd be too damn good if he did), I gave it Leech Seed instead of Spikes to let him heal himself easier. I would really have like to stick Spikes in somewhere, as it would make Kingdra and my other sweepers' lives a lot easier, but such is life.

    Just one thing, just because I'm putting Nattorei first doesn't mean he's my lead. I often do not lead with Nattorei (actually I seldom lead with Nattorei), but it really doesn't matter since you get to change your around anyway. My lead is usually Politoed, since I want to get my rain up as soon as possible, but I also lead with Birjion a lot if I look at your team and go "lol you get 6-0ed by Birijion" (more on this in Birijion's description).


    [​IMG]
    Birijion @ Life Orb
    Trait: Justice Heart
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Giga Drain
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Although I based this team around Calm Mind Manaphy and rain, Birijion, in my opinion, is my MVP. If you call the sorry mess of our current metagame a metagame, Birijion is very anti-metagame, in my opinion. Right now, we basically have Rain and Sand, along with broken-ass Suspects like Deoxys-A and Shaymin-S. Against the first two, Birijion more often than not wipes the floor with them, and for stuff like Deoxys, Skymin and Darkrai, a bit of prediction (aided by Team Preview) can help you get past them. Even if you can't beat them with Birijion (actually Darkrai loses if Sleep Clause is activated), you've got about 2/3 of the metagame checked, hehe. I've seen so many rain teams in Team Preview, choose Birijion to be my lead, Calm Mind up as they Ice Beam me with Politoed for moot damage and then 6-0 their team since so many rain teams are weak to it. So yeah, back to Calm Mind Birijion, it is one of my favourite Pokemon to use in this metagame. It is virtually my one stop switch-in to any kind of defensive core that hopes to stop my Rain team. Nattorei is cleanly eaten up unless Focus Blast misses too much, Burungeru is chomped up by Giga Drain while Gliscor eats Hidden Power Ice. Blissey is setup fodder for Manaphy in any case, whether it is raining or not. Originally I had Swords Dance Birijion, but after everyone started spamming Gliscor next to Nattorei, so I had enough and decided to stick Calm Mind and Hidden Power Ice on Birijion. So yeah, Birijion cleanly handles everything that gives my team troubles. Even with a rather average Base 90 Special Attack, Birijion is actually still quite powerful after a Calm Mind boost. At +1, it's still OHKOing Scizor with Focus Blast, OHKOing stuff like Manaphy with Giga Drain and chucking a huge 60-70% dent into Latios with Hidden Power Ice. In short, it is strong enough to do what it needs to do. As for the moveset, Calm Mind is for boosting and being pretty resilient on the special side. Giga Drain is used since with its power boost, it is almost as powerful as Energy Ball (I'm not using Grass Knot with all the Manaphy running around) but is able to let Birijion heal its health from Life Orb and other insults. I remember when once Birijion was down at 5%, killed an opposing Politoed and got back to about 50%, and proceeded to sweep the opposing team. Focus Blast is Birijion's powerful yet horrifically inaccurate STAB (Give the thing Aura Sphere, damnit) while Hidden Power Ice lets Birijion take out those annoying Gliscors and Dragon-types (It's a great check to any non-Yache Garchomps).


    [​IMG]
    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Psycho Shock
    - Thunder
    - Hidden Power Ice / Grass Knot

    Jirachi is pretty much my idea of trying to patch the team up of as many problems as possible, in particular the one of Swords Dance Toxicroak. It also helps against Birijion, since Jirachi isn't particularly weak to any of its attacks (Focus Blast doesn't kill, IIRC) while Psycho Shock hits on its weaker physical defense. The moveset is rather simple. Calm Mind allows Jirachi to be rather threatening, while Psycho Shock hits stuff like Blissey while allowing him to play around stuff like Rankurusu. Thunder in the rain while having a 60% paralysis chance is just plain annoying for virtually everything and hits Steel types rather hard. I used Hidden Power Ice in the last spot so Jirachi can catch Outraging Dragons like Garchomp with it, but Grass Knot is also an option to hit Hippowdon and Tyranitar really hard. I got the idea from Theorymon, who was QCing a 4th gen Ubers Jirachi analysis (here), and then played around it and made Jirachi pretty awesome after that.


    [​IMG]
    Kingdra (M) @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Hydro Pump
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Surf

    I'm proud of this thing. It went from a no-name to a superstar on rain teams. Before I thought about using this, every Kingdra I saw had Substitute and Dragon Dance. Then I decided to post in the Suspect testing thread and gradually people started to use this (Or LO Special, although there isn't much difference). In short, this thing is ridiculous. It is virtually Specs Latias but with more power (when using a Water-attack) and a truck-load more Speed. I have swept so many teams with Kingdra just spamming Surf alone (which in the rain is basically like spamming Draco Meteor every turn but with no drawbacks). I've actually very rarely use Draco Meteor on Kingdra, seeing as the other three moves do what they need to do anyway. I've seen people try and use Specs Kingdra and stick stuff like Hidden Power Fighting and Ice Beam on it, but seriously, don't bother with that. When you have a Pokemon running around with 538 Speed, near perfect coverage and 475 Special Attack, the simplest set will always be the best. Here's a little stat for everyone. Against Nattorei (One of Kingdra's biggest enemies), whom Hidden Power Fire/Fighting is 2x effective against (since Rain neuters Fire), you get a 140 BP move (70 x 2). However, Hydro Pump is a 135 BP move (120 x 1.5 x 1.5 / 2), almost the same power as Hidden Power Fire/Fighting. I think I'd much rather be locked into a 120 BP double STAB move rather than a 70 BP non-STAB move for a slight drop in power anyday. It's also interesting to note that a NVE double STAB Hydro Pump in the rain does the same amount of damage as a neutral STAB Dragon Pulse, so the only times I would use Dragon Pulse is if I'm revenge-killing a Dragon-type and don't want to risk missing Hydro Pump. So basically, the moveset allows Kingdra to do two things with his two great STABs. Draco Meteor/Hydro Pump allows Kingdra to punch big holes in the opponent's team early- and mid- game while Surf and Dragon Pulse are used clean up late-game. There is no need for anything else. Draco Meteor is Kingdra's "IMMA KILL SOMETHING NOW" move, even if Hydro Pump is stronger, it is still being resisted by less types. It is capable of OHKOing your typical max SpA/max Speed Tail Glow Manaphy, which is quite impressive. Hydro Pump does 35-42% to max HP/max SpD Nattorei, which is quite good because Nattorei can only reliably check you once. Dragon Pulse can 2HKO your Tail Glow Manaphy while sometimes surviving +3 Ice Beam, while Surf is just brainless spam. Only Blissey/Chansey are your surefire counters to Specs Kingdra, really.

    [​IMG]
    Politoed (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 232 HP / 252 SAtk / 24 Spe
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Surf
    - Ice Beam
    - Focus Blast
    - Psychic

    Well, Politeod is probably the weakest link on the team, but it's essential since it has Drizzle. That said, Politoed is far from utter crap. I've actually had games where I've swept half a team with Politoed because the opponent was to put it frankly, retarded. When I was thinking of the moveset, I wanted Politoed to last a while, so it needed to be bulky. However, I also wanted to hit reasonably hard, as I didn't want Politoed to be utter setup fodder. So, I have Politoed the best of both worlds, max HP and max Special Attack. With a Modest nature and max Special Attack, Politoed actually hits surprisingly hard, capable of 2HKOing some not-so-Specially-Defensive Wobbuffets, which is quite impressive in my eyes (Wobb can survive a Specs rain-boosted Hydro Pump from Timid Palkia, so it is rather bulky). I really wanted to run an all out attacking set like I did with my Abomasnow team earlier, but then I played against Inconsistent and thought it was bullshit so Haze had to be in here to temporarily wipe out Inconsistent boosts. I have played with Perish Song and I like it more, but Haze does have the cool thing of annoying DD Kingdra and things like that while having a lot higher PP. The other three attacks are simple. Surf does quite a decent chunk to anything that doesn't resist it, Ice Beam nails Skymin on the switch-in (especially if I see it on Team Preview) and Focus Blast at least gives Politoed an answer to Nattorei and can do a truck-ton to Tyranitar. I changed Haze and Perish Song to Psychic after Moody was banned so Politoed wasn't Toxicroak setup fodder. 24 Speed EVs outspeed max Speed Wobbuffet.

    [​IMG]
    Manaphy @ Leftovers
    Trait: Hydration
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Boil Over
    - Ice Beam
    - Rest

    This was supposed to be the star of the team, but like a lot of my teams, Pokemon that I want to be the MVP don't always become the MVP (the honour goes to Birijion, heh). Calm Mind Manaphy is possibly one of the hardest things to take down in the rain. With a Calm Mind boost, Manaphy can take a Seed Flare from LO Skymin and kill it with Ice Beam in return. There is virtually nothing that can OHKO Manaphy after a Calm Mind. Manaphy can take stuff like Thunderbolt from Latios after a Calm Mind and set up in its face while the opponent watches helplessly. The most common way I have seen people try and stop Manaphy is by tricking it a Choice item with their Latios or something, which is hardly reliable (I usually go to Politoed to take Specs, Kingdra is a bit risky). At first when I found out Manaphy got +3 Tail Glow, I thought CM would be redundant because TG just made Manaphy into a whole new level of awesome. However, after playing around with it a bit more, I returned to using the slower but more steady Calm Mind version (which in my opinion is better than the Tail Glow version). The real catch of Calm Mind Manaphy is that unlike Tail Glow Manaphy, CM Manaphy can destroy stall but simultaneously hold its own against Offense. Tail Glow Manaphy gets eaten up by stuff like Specs Draco Meteor from Latios, Specs Thunderbolt from Jolteon (if you're not running Wacan Berry) or Seed Flare from Shaymin-S, all of which are extremely common in the current metagame. Another catch of Calm Mind Manaphy is that should the opponent not get any lucky crits, Calm Mind Manaphy can PP stall out those annoying Inconsistent Octillerys that use Toxic instead of Energy Ball (a rather painful and annoying way of winning, but who doesn't hate Inconsistent). To the moveset now, Calm Mind and Rest is what makes Manaphy deadly, since with it, he can slowly boost up a wreck face. I chose Boil Over over Surf because the burn rate makes Manaphy an even bigger asshole to try and take down, especially if you're relying on Nattorei (if I get the burn, then Manaphy is setting up on and defeating Nattorei, not the other way around). Ice Beam gets those annoying Dragon-types and Grass-types, particularly Shaymin-S. Speaking about Shaymin-S, you wouldn't believe the number of times I've Ice Beamed on the switch and catching them switching in because I saw them on Team Preview. Learn to use it, peoples.


    Team Building Process:

    [​IMG]
    [Manaphy]

    Well I actually wanted to start with CM Manaphy. It was something I've always loved using back in 4th gen Ubers.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    [Politoed][Manaphy]

    To abuse Manaphy, especially CM Manaphy to its full potential, Drizzle support is crucial.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [Kingdra][Kabutops][Politoed][Manaphy]

    Since this is going to be a rain team, I might as well abuse it by adding a couple of Swift Swimmers in. Kingdra and Kabutops are two of the most dangerous ones.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [Kirikizan][Birijion][Kingdra][Politoed][Manaphy]

    I then realised the team had too many Grass and Electric weaknesses, something like Scarf Skymin would sweep me flat. At thtat time, I also realised that opposing Rain teams and Nattorei would cause a lot problems. So, Kirikizan was added for Skymin protection and Birijion was there to take Electric attacks all the while dealing with opposing Rain and Sand.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [Bronzong][Kirikizan][Birijion][Kingdra][Politoed][Manaphy]

    I wanted SR support and a better Skymin and Doryuuzu protection, so I added Bronzong. This is the team that got me to #4.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [Bronzong][Gliscor][Birijion][Kingdra][Politoed][Manaphy]

    So after playing around for a bit more on another alt, I decided to fix the weaknesses of the team. I realised there was a pretty major Fighting weakness on this team, so I replaced Kirikizan with SD Acrobat Gliscor.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [Bronzong][Latias][Birijion][Kingdra][Politoed][Manaphy]

    After getting reverse swept by my own CM Birijion (well, someone else used it against me), I decided to add Latias to safeguard against Birijion, since she's probably the best counter to the deer ever =D.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [Nattorei][Latias][Birijion][Kingdra][Politoed][Manaphy]

    Since Bronzong is weak shit and can't do much to Kingdra, those things started gave me a bit of trouble, so I finally decided to add the ever-valuable Nattorei onto the team.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [Nattorei][Jirachi][Birijion][Kingdra][Politoed][Manaphy]

    After seeing how weak I was to Toxicroak, whose usage skyrocketed, I replaced Latias with Jirachi.

  2. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Threat list

    Major threats:
    - Well, I'm not going to bother with every single threat because that would take forever. I'll just put up some of the more used Pokemon, especially Suspects and big threats to my team.

    Black = Easy, Orange = Annoying, Red = Big trouble

    Birijion: Jirachi can take a boosted attack and Psycho Shocks it
    Blaziken: Don't let it set up, otherwise it would be trouble. Otherwise, it's not a problem at all
    Borutorosu: Mischievous Heart Thunder Wave can get annoying as it will cripple something, but aren't much of a problem otherwise. Birijion handles most Borutorosu, while Kingdra easily revenge-kills NP versions.
    Breloom: Jirachi Psycho Shocks it to oblivion, while Manaphy can also do a lot to it with Ice Beam
    Darkrai: I'd normally get the rain up and then soak up sleep with Manaphy. Kingdra can revenge kill it quite reliably as well.
    Deoxys: See Deoxys-A
    Deoxys-A: Can become quite a pain but isn't much of a problem with good prediction. Kingdra can revenge it, while Nattorei isn't a bad check in most situations.
    Deoxys-S: Can't do much about Spikers, the good thing is that they normally Taunt me on Turn 1, so they only get one layer up anyway =D.
    Doredia: Keep rain up. Jirachi can Psycho Shock it, Birijion can Calm Mind alongside it.
    Doryuuzu: Keeping the rain up in my primary objective, but Birijion can take a non-LO +2 X-Scissor if it needs to an OHKO back with Focus Blast (lol). I try to prevent it setting up if possible.
    Dragonite: Multi-scale is annoying, but with Dragon and Ice moves everywhere on my team, Dragonite isn't a threat.
    Garchomp: Nattorei can take on ScarfChomps easily, while Kingdra can revenge all versions. Birijion can also OHKO non-Yache versions.
    Gengar: Manaphy can set up on this unless it has Thunder(bolt), Kingdra can revenge it, Nattorei makes it rely on Focus Blast.
    Gyarados: Actually a VERY BIG threat, seeing its bulk can allow it to take a beating and DD up in my face. Nattorei is a decent check while Kingdra can Draco Meteor it for a lot of damage.
    Heatran: Can't do much to be if I have rain up.
    Hihidaruma: Can't do much in the rain. Kingdra and Manaphy can take it on reasonably easily.
    Infernape: Kingdra outspeeds and OHKOs with Surf/Hydro Pump. Manaphy can take a hit and kill with Boil Over.
    Jirachi: Manaphy sets up on it unless it has Trick. Kingdra does a truck-load to it with Water-type attacks. Birijion can do a lot to it with boosted Focus Blasts.
    Jolteon: Nattorei is a great check. Kingdra outspeeds and OHKOs with Surf.
    Kingdra: Nattorei is the Kingdra check. Otherwise, it can be a problem.
    Kirikizan: Birijion laughs at Kirikizan. Manaphy can give it troubles with Calm Mind and Boil Over as well.
    Kojondo: Kojondo is an annoying pest. However, apart from taking free hits and running away, there isn't much it can do.
    Kobaruon: Does anyone use this?? Anywho, Kingdra does a wallop with Surf, Birijion speed ties with it at worst.
    Kyurem: With rain up, this thing isn't a problem. Kingdra eats it, Jirachi switches in and Calm Minds up, Manaphy can set up on it if its all special and Birijion outspeeds and deals a huge amount of damage if it isn't Scarfed.
    Latias: See Latios
    Latios: Nattorei is a good check, seeing as HP Fire won't do much in the rain. Kingdra can revenge kill it as well.
    Lucario: Manaphy can take +2 Extremespeeds and do a lot of damage with Boil Over. It can't really set up very easily either.
    Machamp: Annoying pest as usual. Kingdra OHKOs with Hydro Pump. Strangely enough, Hydration doesn't cure confusion o_0.
    Magnezone: With Water attacks flying around, it isn't going to hurt me much. Getting Nattorei trapped is annoying though...
    Ninjask: I love how Ninjask users work very hard to get to something like +2 Atk/+5 Speed by alternating between Sub and Protect, only to lose it all to Haze =D.
    Ononokusu: Slow-ass mofo. Gets Ice Beamed, Draco Meteored, Dragon Pulsed, etc.
    Randorosu: Birijion eats this thing alive. So does Kingdra in the rain.
    Rankurusu: Now that I don't have Kirikizan, this thing actually quite annoying. I would normally have to jam it with Hydro Pump and lose Kingdra to it so it doesn't get the oppotunity to Recover in my face.
    Roobushin: Hydro Pump/Psycho Shock takes care of him.
    Salamence: Kingdra revenges it big time. Nattorei isn't a bad switch-in in the rain, while Manaphy can also take a hit and OHKO with Ice Beam.
    Sazandora: Another slow-ass mofo. See Ononokusu.
    Scizor: With all the Water attacks running around, Scizor doesn't anything much. Easily gets OHKOed by Surf from Kingdra. Birijion can OHKO at +1 with Focus Blast, too.
    Shaymin-S: Annoying bastard. Nattorei isn't bad if I don't get a long flinch string. Kingdra can revenge kill it unless it Scarf flinches me or something. I can usually lure it out with Manaphy by Ice Beaming on the switch, too =D.
    Smeargle: I normally have rain up and absorb sleep with Manaphy. Smeargle can't do much else after that.
    Starmie: Manaphy sets up in its face. Kingdra revenge kills it.
    Terakion: I try not to let this set up. Manaphy can take a hit from RP, while SD is easily revenged by Kingdra and Latias.
    Tyranitar: Can't take Water attacks very well, so it can only really come in after a kill, I guess. All of my Pokemon have ways of killing it anyway.
    Urugamosu: Keeping rain up is important, since Kingdra can revenge it it's at +1. Having SR up helps too.
    Victini: Scarf Death Gambit is stupid. Other than that, Kingdra and Manaphy defeats it easily.
    Zoroark: Annoying since it usually comes in undetected, but once I know which one it is, it dies quickly.
    Zuruzukin: Hydro Pump does a lot to it. Birijion doesn't do badly against it either.

    Defensive threats:
    Basically, the defensive threats are generally Manaphy set up fodder, apart from Latias and Nattorei. I've already covered Latias, and Nattorei is generally Birijion setup fodder. Not much to say, really.

    Playstyles:
    Inconsistent: Needs to be banned. Seriously. Not fun when you have to PP stall a perfectly good CM Manaphy to beat it.
    Rain: Most rain teams get 6-0ed by Birijion, hehe. Smarter ones are played around with a combination of Birijion, Kingdra, Manaphy and Nattorei
    Sand: Keep rain up. Always. Birijion deals quite a lot to them, too.
    Sun: Keep rain up. Usually more annoying than Sand and Rain since Sun actually matches up against rain pretty well.
  3. NeVeR

    NeVeR

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2010
    Messages:
    16
    I would think blissey/chansey being a huge threat for your team if manaphy is down or the rain isn't up. And that might be a common situation considering a lot of people use blissey/chansey in sandstorm and maybe hail stall teams.
  4. Wafflez

    Wafflez

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2010
    Messages:
    414
    Firstly, Congratulations on your success. This is a very beautiful and well thought out team and you seem to have covered most of the flaws of Rain in general. I dont really have too much to change but just a few nitpicks.

    I still think Latios would be better for this team because the Drop in bulk is generally not too noticable. You dont really have stuff like SpecsOgre running around in OU so the lack of S.Def dsn't really matter too much. In this team i see Lati@s as more of a check to the Fighting types that plague OU and just helping synergy in general much rather then coming in on Bulky waters and what not. It helps aginst Birijion but thats still a pretty rare threat and wouldn't be far too hard to overpower with Kingdra and Latios anyway.On the other hand the boost in power is generally helpful against various threats and i think it would help you more in the long run.

    I really don't see what the S.Atk Ev's are doing for in Toad. Its not going to be dishing out too much damage anyway and it seems more logical to make it as bulky as possible so it can take hits better. Not having any form of reliable recovery also hurts Toad quite a lot. Try out this set

    Politoad @ Chesto Berry
    252 Hp/252 Def/4 Spe
    Bold
    -Boil Over/Surf/Hydro Pump
    -Ice Beam
    -Rest
    -Perish Song

    You'd be surprised how great ChestoRest Toad works. This is mainly designed to make Toad a semi decent Bulky Water and give it some form of recovery which is really helpful, specially in outlasting Weather wars. The Ev's you can pretty much mess around with to make it Specially or Physically bulky according to your wish. I would really recommended you give it a try before anything else, it works wonders. And yeah Perish song over Haze because its more helpful from my experiance. Inconsistence sweepers dont really have any trouble just outright attacking Toad and killing it and getting the boosts back as Toad cant do too much back.

    On Manaphy i would suggest replacing the Ev Spread with 252 Hp/252 Def/4 Spe and a Nature of Bold. Manaphy has exceptional Natural Bulk and when combined with Max Ev Investment it's practically impossible to ohk0 with physical attacks. And when combined with the Special Deffense Boosts of Calm mind the opponent rarely will have an answere to Manaphy. The speed really dsn't help much as seeing most of what Manaphy sets up on is rather slow as it is and you dont really out pace much of its checks like Latios, Skymin as they are in a higher speed tier. The Extra bulk also helps to set up in a large number of threats as they will mostly fail to 2hk0 you now. Energy Ball is also a decent alternative to Ice Beam if you dont want to get walled by bulky waters like Vaporeon, Burungeru etc, but seeing as Skymin is pretty annoying for your team and how Birijion can set up on these Bulky waters anyway Ice beam seems like the more ideal option.

    About all i had to say. Gl with your team. Oh and I use Skymin on my rain team so no 6-0 for you ;)
  5. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Yes, I am still considering Latios, since Blissey and Chansey are still annoying, and Psycho Shock from Latios guarantees a 2HKO against Blissey while Latias needs Stealth Rock to do so (and Roobushin with Draco Meteor too). However, I still like Latias' bulk, she could take hits better from stuff like Infernape and Starmie, and Latias is just so much more appealing in general =D. I'll play around with Latios a bit more, see what happens.

    I have tried Manaphy with 0 Speed EVs before in 4th gen Ubers, and I do think Manaphy is better off with full Speed EVs rather than full Defense. 237 Speed is outsped by heaps of things, even stuff like Jolly Tyranitar, for God's sake. I find it more useful to get to +2 faster rather than tank physical hits slightly better. There really isn't anything that can OHKO Manaphy physically anyway (maybe something like CB Wild Bolt Electivire, who would get owned with Manaphy's good speed anyway).

    Oh, and I can still 6-0 you by predicting your Skymin switch-in and using Hidden Power Ice on the switch =D (you'd be really surprised how many times I've caught people like that).
  6. Jaroda

    Jaroda

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,499
    Very good team. I'm really liking the Birijion.

    On Nattorei if you're going mixed than use a +Def nature. You'll have a higher stat total and you can achieve the same SpD stat simply by putting more EVs into it while having naturally higher Df.

    If Gyarados is a problem then replace Surf on Latias with Thunder. Half your team already gets STAB water attacks covered, whereas Thunder takes advantage of the Rain and gives you better coverage.

    Finally I recommend Toxic on Politoed.

    Good stuff.
  7. KnivesNPistols

    KnivesNPistols

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2010
    Messages:
    40
    You have a very solid team there and your success confirms that. This is my first rate so bare with me.

    Nattorei: I think it's fine EV spread makes it about equally physically and specially bulky so I would stick to it. For the moves you have the option to use Spikes either over Rocks or Leech Seed but I think either is a good idea. You could also put Toxic (I think T-Wave is redundant on rain teams) or Protect in there if you don't find Gyro Ball useful.

    Birijon: This thing looks great AND it's original. You rarely see that so good job. Too bad it has to rely on Focus Blast to sweep (if it had Aura Sphere...).

    Latias: Since you are using a completly offensive set, I think Latios would do better. I second the idea to give it Thunder just to help with bulky waters and Gyara a bit more.

    Kingdra: Looks great nothing to change here.

    Politoed: This is some sort of a deadweight on rain teams but well while it's worse than TTar and Hippo it still isn't garbage like Ninetails. I personally prefer scarf Toad when i'm playing but it would be redundant on your team since you already have Specs on Kingdra. I would change the EV spread and give it 252HP/252Def/4SAtk with Bold nature to make it a bit bulkier since with your current spread physical attacks kill you very quickly. I would put Toxic in there over Focus Blast since you are not going to stay in on Nattorei and Tyranitar in Sand anyway. Also replace Surf with Boil Over for the burn chance.

    Manaphy: It's fine as it is and I like how you put Calm Mind over Tail Glow as CM is totally underrated on Manaphy. I agree that the speed is very important but with I would run max Def just because like that Manaphy is even harder to take down and has the best recovery in game (under the rain of course) so yeah. It could also help you check SS teams better as physical Manaphy can take hits from Mole and Chomp better.

    Overall I think you lack a physical attacker to help deal with Chansey and Blissey. I think Toxicroak is really awsome on rain teams with SD/Drain Punch/Poison Jab/Sucker Punch but I just can't fit it in your team. Maybe if Manaphy gets banned...
  8. MazeL

    MazeL

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    This is a great team you have here Shrang. As people were suggesting, I would recommend Latios in place of Latias, and run a moveset of Thunder/Dragon Pulse/Psycho Shock/Recover @ Life Orb Timid 252 Spe / 252 SpA / 4 HP. Dropping Surf will not hurt all that much seeing that you have SpecsDra as well as CM Manaphy. I also recommend Dragon Pulse over Draco Meteor again since you have SpecsDra who fires off a little less powerful Dragon STAB, and will allow you to keep Latios in instead of switching all the time. You have a very solid team and hope you continue with your success!
  9. San_Pellegrino

    San_Pellegrino the eternal dreamer
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    Nice team shrang!

    First off, absolutely get rid of SR and replace with spikes. Spikes are infinitely more beneficial in the residual damage you can get off especially when facing other weather teams. This team would be very good, but it is soooo weak to status. I understand that Manaphy can shrug off status, but inopportune t-waves from opposing nattorei, blissey/chansey, and others can really ruin a sweep for you. In addition, Manaphy would take quite the beating if it came in on any status move from the entry hazards up. I don't really see a solution to this that won't highly modulate your team. Thoughts?
  10. Wynought

    Wynought

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    Why not opt for a Physical variant of Birijion to deal with Chansey and Blissey.
  11. Lamppost

    Lamppost I put the milk in first
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    i like the team, and i think calm mind manaphy is more fun to use than tail glow.

    anyways i dont have a lot of suggestions other than your team is really heavily sided towards special attacks barring nattorei.

    i know you said birijion was your mvp but you might want to try a swords dance set instead of calm mind. just try it out and see how it works.

    another thing you might try to balance it out is instead of specs kingdra try the mixdra set.
  12. Enygma

    Enygma

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    He said in the OP exactly WHY he changed it from physical to special... OTL

    Actually, Nattorei, Politoed, and Manaphy don't mind status at all. Poison & T-wave doesn't faze Nattorei, & Burn and T-Wave don't faze Politoed, either. Manaphy just handles everything like a boss under rain. I'm sure shrang knows exactly how to play around status. After all, it's pretty easy to deduce which Pokemons on the foe's team will have status based upon the preview (unless they have unconventional/uncommon movesets). His team is fine against status.

    Anyways, I've had success with such a very similar team, except I've been using insufficient spreads and slightly different moves. Great team! I hope you don't mind me "borrowing" yours to perfect my own. :)
  13. JSND

    JSND

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    Okay theres one weakness that CM Mana have and its time to set up. Which means unlike other manaphy set(need to note that TG full manaphy has problem too) only TWO of your whole team can easily beat toxicroak AND only one pokemon do actualy have perfect winning chance against toxicroak.

    while it might be rare even after i overhype Croak in the rain, it have been aknowledged for some as far as ive seen so it might need to be taken in consideration.

    Well, Exactly 5 of your team struggle against toxicroak especialy the SD variants due to its speed at raising attack.

    Natts have one shot chance to Gyro ball but when you want to spikes he can taunt you, heal with rain and leftied and finaly drain punch you.

    Virizion have good chance as +2 HP deal 70-80 % damage but he can Drain punch you
    dealing 46.6% - 55.2% % on +0 and considering biri at +2 and if he has SD up, biri might be troubled especialy considering HP drain and healing factor.

    Latias is one of the 2(3 counting Biri) that can beat croak but battle against croak will eventualy last into prediction battle whether you use psycho at the right time.
    Lat can win if you predict correctly and hes not at + 2

    Kingdra is interesting. He can OHKO with DM and DP croak has no chance of OHKO with sucker even at + 4(+ 6 ? lol dont let it). But remember, specszando struggle at beating burungeru. This means Buru is another way to beat specs Kingdra, not just blissey.

    Finally, for toed, ice beam deal w hopping 40.7% - 48.2% and hes faster and able to taunt you if you want to haze or PS him. Hes basically losing in most match up seeing croak witn lefties always have 18.5 % HP left every turn. Also DP does 38.5% - 45.6% and it heals him.

    Manaphy in bulky form is dangerous but well
    31.6% - 37.5% +0 ice beam
    while he.... 29.2% - 34.4%
    AND able to taunt you to stop rest etc(good hes slower), set up, and stomp over him.
    Of course i need to mention that each turn at + 0 he only get maximum of 19 % HP damage. Basicaly hes one of the greatest nemesis manaphy ever have to face in battle.

    I suggest considering croak on your own team since he already beat blissey, and he can(as you see from calcs) stand a chance against opposing virizion.

    Soooo basicaly Toxicroak is probably biggest enemy of your whole team

    Otherwise, this is a nice team and congrats at your sucess
  14. cmurph

    cmurph

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    Alright I played with this team, I only got to like 100 with it because it turns out I forgot to put natures on all the pokemon, but whatever. I changed Kingdra to a life orb set with hp electric, cause I dont really like the choice set. The biggest issue I faced was nattorei. The only pokemon that can really deal with it is Birijion, and Birijion has to rely on the shittiness that is focus blast to beat it. Im not sure how you do it to be honest
  15. Berserker Lord

    Berserker Lord unreliable analysis writer.

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    Well, Shrang can Focus Blast with Politoed and Birijion, stall out its Power Whipes and set up with Manaphy, and Kingdra muscling through with Hydro Pump, but Nattorei still gives him a bit of trouble, and trying to use something to make it easier to handle will make him weak to a wider range of things.
  16. cmurph

    cmurph

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    politoed can't beat leech seed/protect versions and other versions it only has about a 50 percent chance of beating due to focus blasts accuracy. Putting choice specs on politoed could help, one focus blast from a specstoed puts nattorei into kingdras ko range, although any time you bring in your own nattorei it gets a chance to heal up
  17. Charmander

    Charmander mfw i have a mane and am actually the sun
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    I faced someone stealing your team a few minutes ago actually, and he couldn't handle Dusclops + Chansey. People are using that a lot more nowaways (and Desukan + Chansey). Even Chansey alone beats this team, as Nattorei is your only physical attacker.
    Once Manaphy is gone, it looks really hard to take down
  18. JSND

    JSND

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    yup toxicroak is great here after all
  19. Enygma

    Enygma

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    That player was obviously an idiot. Chansey and Dusclops are absolute set-up fodder for Manaphy. Chansey relies on Toxic to defeat it's foes, but when Manaphy has Rest and infinite rain, Chansey will never win. Dusclops is the same boat. Neither will ever win against Manaphy.

    Manaphy is definitely more potent than you think. This team actually requires a huge learning curve to use, but it's still a great team. You might need some experience to be able to use this team well.
  20. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    o_0 Who says this team can't beat Dusclops and Chansey?? Manaphy beats both of them with his hand down his imaginary pants =D. Don't compare me to team stealers =O.

    Anyway, you guys are right, Chansey/Blissey are annoying to this team, like I've noticed already (although when I used this team, they weren't that bad, and when I had Kirikizan around, they weren't too hard to take down either). I'm thinking of a few changes at the moment (which I'll test after I come back from holidays). One is Latias > SD Toxicroak, who can take SOME Fighting attacks, absorb Toxic Spikes and destroy Chansey/Blissey (would leave me a bit weaker to Birijion), the other is Latias > Gyarados, who can somewhat help with me with opposing Gyarados by Intimidating it, he can take on Chansey/Blissey and can check Birijion at times while having rain power up Waterfall.
  21. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Shamelessly bumping to say that I've semi-solved my Toxicroak problem replacing Latias with Jirachi =D (using my long overdue 24 hr bump)
  22. LizardMan

    LizardMan porn director lizardman
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    I used this team, and I like it. However, I don't really see the use of Perish Song on Politoad. Wouldn't Encore or Hypnosis be better? Encore annoys things, and sleep is good.
  23. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Yeah, I've replaced it with Psychic so Toxicroak doesn't have a free setup on it. The only reason I used Perish Song was because of Inconsistent, but since it's banned now, I changed to Psychic.

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