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Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Cshadow, Nov 26, 2010.
Cloyster is the most used Ice-type in 5th gen OU-DW tier, i think that it deserve a mention.
Cloyster with shell break in the hail can have some uses, most notable to have more OHKOs if most Pokemon have been hurt at least once or twice by the hail.
Froslass will quite enjoy hail, even with Cursed Body.
please if you make a discussion about hail include zapdos
zapdos is one of the best choice to include in a hail team
To elaborate on the above posts: Cloyster can be a fine choice on offensive hail teams which rely on the extra ~6% damage to secure vital KOs. However I'm not too good with the calcs and such, so I can't really think of any situation where that would be needed. If you're not using Cloyster because of that, then it just gives you an additional fighting- and rock- type weakness, while sharing the same typing with Walrein. In other words, disastrous for synergy.
Zapdos shares the rock-weakness with Abomasnow and Walrein, but there is a point going there for DW Zapdos which can take electric-type attacks aimed at Walrein to redeem its Satk boost courtesy of Lightningrod.
Nidoqueen is an interesting point there as it can provide BOTH Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock, while resisting fighting- and rock-type moves. I think there was a really successful RMT back in Gen IV that used Nidoqueen on a hail team; if I remember correctly it's featured somewhere in one of the Smog issues. Utility-wise, Nidoqueen is a fine choice with its dual roles and unique typing. Also, its DW ability Encourage grants a 1.3 boost on attacks with secondary percentage chances while cancelling LO recoil for that move. This means Nidoqueen can fire off 100% accurate, 203 base power Blizzards under hail. :D
Great write up. Although hail hasn't gotten much this gen I believe that mamoswine and abamosnow are even better in this current meta. You might want to mention shed-shell up in your post about abamosnow. I know you put it in your shandera threat post, but I really believe that it is a necessary item. It also is great for setting up a flash fire boost for heatran.
Secondly I think that froslass works better with a choice specs set. Trick has saved me several times, Thunderbolt, shadow ball, and blizzard is what I ran.
The point of Hail in gen 5 is putting a stop to Swift Swif, Sand Throw and Clorophyll pokemon.
You need a backup Hail user holding an Icy Rock in Gen 5, period. Abomasnow is not capable of switching in several times during the match and the best way to stop an opposing weather team which relies on speed boosts is Hail, which effectively makes otherwise dangerous pokemon like Doryuzuu a complete joke.
Abomasnow can easily deal with Hippodown and Politoed, but it's completely murdered by Ninetales and Tyranitar so your backup Hail user of choice needs to be able to handle them.
Suicune can fit this role well since it can take advantage of 100% accurate Blizzard and it can scare Tyranitar and Ninetales away with its STAB.
Please do not start complaining about how Hail is a "waste of a moveslot" because, in Gen 5, it's not.
Cloud Nine pokemon are predictable and any self-respecting offensive weather team has a way to deal with those, but nobody expects a random hail, which is why it's a much more effective way to stop such teams.
I disagree. With improved Wish and Magic Coat mechanics, it's easier to keep up Abomasnow's health up (and SR off). Abomasnow still walls Bulky Waters with its SubSeed set, which also handily keeps its HP up. Abomasnow can also switch in on unsuspecting Doryuuzu.
Hail and Icy Rock is a waste of a moveslot and item. In Gen V, it is. Hail MUST be infinite if you're planning to base a team around it, because Hail is primarily stall. And stall takes more than eight turns.
Offensive Hail teams have better things to be doing than setting up Hail. Like entry hazards or stat-boosting.
Yeah if you don't use a weather themed team i think its actually a pretty good idea to sacrifice a move slot on something bulky to stop the enemy weather.
However IMO Hail isn't the best idea to use for this, sure it cancels out the 3 most common weathers, but it comes at the cost of being harmful to most of your own Team since packing a Team full of Ice types isn't a good idea (wich is the reason why Hail teams are often looked down).
Its a better Idea to use something your Team can take advantage of like Rain and Sun if you are using Kingdra on your Team wouldn't it be good to maybe have Rain Support even if he can function outside of Rain or use Sun to strengthen your Sazandoras/Salmence Flamethrower and lessen the damage your Garchomp takes from Surf ?. You also dont need to use an Icy Rock since you just want to interupt the enemys weather and once your weather is gone the weather will change to clear sky.
Also since we can preview the Enemys Team now your opponent sees that you dont use a auto weather changer and decides to fodder his Politoed early, thinking that he won't need it and after that you can just change the weather to sun crippeling his Team heavy.
Snover w/ Evo Stone is the best back-up Hailer if u plan on using 1. Blizzard / Protect / Toxic / Leech Seed, allow it to Hail stall, and works if you use an offensive Abomasnow (like scarf, since it will die faster)... It's slower than all weather starters beyond the Hippo Jr. and it has Toxic and Leech Seed to make up for its Offensive and Defensive limitations.
One question, why is HP Ground listed for Heatran when it has Earth Power?
IMO the problem with Hail is that it suffers from six-member syndrome, it needs too many to get all it's bases covered.
Great thread. Liquid Ooze Tentacruel seems particularly interesting to me with all the boosted Drain Punches and Giga Drains running around and stuff.
All the interesting Pokes featured in this thread make me think that Hail could actually be a lot better than I gave it credit for.
Your post was so exhaustively researched and beautifully written, that I was actually inspired to try a hail team. I'll post back later and see how it went.
Wow, very nice OP. I was going to suggest Moltres, but I see that you already have it in the list of things to come. I ran a Moltres on my hail stall in gen4, and it was incredibly useful. I needed something to handle Infernape, Metagross, and Heatran, but Tentacruel just couldn't repeatedly switch into any of them. Moltres stopped all of those dead in their tracks, albeit it does have to resort to PP stalling Heatran lol.
Moltres @ Leftovers Trait: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 72 Def / 188 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
The given EVs outspeed max speed Jolly Breloom so you can fry it or sub before it pulls any funny business. You have to be careful about Blaziken, as Stone Edge isn't exactly rare, but if they're running both Protect and Swords Dance, chances are they're not using Stone Edge. If you have a sub before Blaziken comes in, you can also easily stall out Stone Edge's 4 PP. Also, if you're looking to beat max speed Timid Heatran with HP [Ground] or something in the last slot instead, Moltres can actually do so while still running Bold, but you will need max speed. This isn't recommended as it does take away a lot of physical survivability against the likes of Lucario, Infernape, Metagross, and friends.
Hope it helps :)
Bumpety bump bump
Cloyster sounds like junk for a hail team. Someone be a fabulous person and prove me wrong, because I would love to believe that he would make an amazing addition.
Zapdos sounds like a good defensive partner, I've added him to the list of "things I need to add to the first post in the future", however, someone else could always write something up and just have me copy and paste it to the first post.
Nidoqueen sounds really really interesting actually. I'll try to write something up for her later.
Shed Shell has been added after I personally tested out that item as well as the combination you mentioned, it worked wonderfully.
Because I'm a moron who when writing this spent three days staying up until 2am and forgot to brush the article with a fine tooth comb when I was done d:
Thanks for pointing that out, fixed~
That's actually very helpful, as I can just copy and paste posts like these into the first post, which means less writing for me to do d:
Ability: Snow Warning
Item: Shed Shell
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
- Leech Seed
- Giga Drain
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Hp / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
- Stealth Rock
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Dragon Pulse
I've been trying these two out together and I have to say I absolutely love it. If the opponent runs Shanderra, Abomasnow can lure him out and then escape, letting Heatran jump in and get a Flash Fire boost, letting him set ablaze whomever is sent in next, or take advantage of the situation and set up Stealth Rock. Even without Shanderra on the opponents team, Heatran is still fabulous at taking Fire attacks aimed towards Abomasnow.
I've updated the first post; what's been changed is in the spoiler box at the bottom. I was hoping for a little more discussion since its been a while and people have had time to try things out that work for them.
I use Scarf Abomasnow to counter weather teams. Say goodbye to Dory and Kingdra.
Also, Inconsistent Glalie (although inferior to Octillery) can be a bitch in the hail with Toxic, Substitute, Protect and either Blizzard or Super Fang. This coupled with Stallrein can make one hell of a hail team.
Problem with both of these is that they both fear Roobusin.
Which is why should not switch Abomasnow out to Heatran with Roobushin out front, and rather, one of the four other members on your team that can deal with him d:
Also; 252 Hp Roobushin is roasted by Flash Fire boosted Heatran: 100.7% - 118.8%
Wooh this is an awesome, informative thread. luvdisc it.
Moltres can help out if the other team make setup of Sunny Day (even if you have Abosmasnow and another counters, you can use some things like HP Ground or simply PPStall, I think).
Ooze Tentacruel loves Roobushin
Very nice post man. Good job, it is very informative.
Personally I think a Abosmasnow with Shandera is broken. They make such a great team together.
Can you elaborate?
You mean explain why, right?
Abomasnow weakness are Fire and Fighting-type, which Shandera can handle, but now that I think about it they both have Rock-type weakness...
Tyranitar wants a word with both of them.