Imminent Big Change: Keldeo

Dark Fallen Angel

FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
Can Tornadus be considered a check? It cannot take a STAB and Rain boosted Hydro Pump at all, but is faster than Keldeo (assuming that it isn't using Choice Scarf and both have the same investiment in Speed) and has STAB Hurricane to OHKO Keldeo, unless it invests heavily in HP or Special Defense and has a Calm Mind boost.
 
We need to clarify what a check is and what a counter is. A check cannot switch in safely but can easily dispose of the target if it gets in safely. A counter is something that can easily switch into any attack and proceed to deal with it from there. Unfortunately as good as a "counter" that Jellicent is, like Tentacruel, it really cannot do anything back other than taunt or toxic. If Keldeo has substitute and t spikes support, you're doomed. Latias is probably the best "counter" but it'll still take a decent amount of damage from a boosted super effective Hidden Power.
 

Yonko7

Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
is a Contributor Alumnus
S/he (?) is a good example of not judging a book by its cover.

I think Jelli' will see a spike is usage, since its typing a blessing when going against it.
 
Even Latias isn't a perfect answer to Keldeo. Timid Keldeo's Specs Hydro Pump in the Rain is doing 47.80%-56.59% damage to a 252/0 Latias, while Latias's 4 SpA Psyshock is doing 62.96%-74.69% in return. HP Ghost/Ice is doing a little more damage than Rain Hydro Pump, so Latias isn't perfectly safe outside of the Rain either. Heck, Tentacruel has to run at least 200 SpD EVs with max HP and a Calm nature to escape the 2HKO from Rain Specs Hydro Pump after Stealth Rock, and even then it does squat back.
 
*This is a pony. A baby horse girl toy. Why is it so awesome?!* Anyone who get's that reference get's a cookie.

I think Celebi is a good check for it. While it doesn't like taking +1 LO HP Ghost it can set up on any set lacking that by setting up CM on it's own or just straight up Leaf Storm. It can also recover off the damage it takes. At the very least that makes it a good check.
 
Even Latias isn't a perfect answer to Keldeo. Timid Keldeo's Specs Hydro Pump in the Rain is doing 47.80%-56.59% damage to a 252/0 Latias, while Latias's 4 SpA Psyshock is doing 62.96%-74.69% in return. HP Ghost/Ice is doing a little more damage than Rain Hydro Pump, so Latias isn't perfectly safe outside of the Rain either. Heck, Tentacruel has to run at least 200 SpD EVs with max HP and a Calm nature to escape the 2HKO from Rain Specs Hydro Pump after Stealth Rock, and even then it does squat back.
Wouldn't Rain Dish+Protect bring it back into safety?
 

WaterBomb

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How about Toxicroak? With Dry Skin he'll be immune to Hydro Pump, and Rain Recovery+Leftovers+Drain Punch should be enough to mitigate the damage done by Secret Sword or the coverage HP (if it has one). Keldeo would have to spend time boosting pretty high to OHKO Toxicroak, and in that time Toxicroak could easily kill Keldeo. I think this is a very good check, potentially a usable counter for Keldeo, especially in rain.
 
I've always used the standard special attacker Latios to keep Keldeo in check. Timid, with Draco Meteor/Surf/Psyshock/Roost and LO has always been able to check the musketeers in my experience. While it obviously doesn't have the defensive capabilities of its sister, Keldeo still can't OHKO it, and Latios will be able to force it out, heall with Roost or simply go for the kill with Psyshock. I'm considering a wee bit of bulk though, since +1 Hydro Pump really does hurt. It also can't come in on a Hydro Pump from a +1 Keldeo in the rain, because I'm pretty sure that simply muscles through the resistance.
 
Even Latias isn't a perfect answer to Keldeo. Timid Keldeo's Specs Hydro Pump in the Rain is doing 47.80%-56.59% damage to a 252/0 Latias, while Latias's 4 SpA Psyshock is doing 62.96%-74.69% in return. HP Ghost/Ice is doing a little more damage than Rain Hydro Pump, so Latias isn't perfectly safe outside of the Rain either. Heck, Tentacruel has to run at least 200 SpD EVs with max HP and a Calm nature to escape the 2HKO from Rain Specs Hydro Pump after Stealth Rock, and even then it does squat back.
Call me a crazy theorymoner, but if you just calm mind before the second hit, the maximum damage if you get high damage rolls is 93.6%, asuming leftovers recovery and one hit off stealth rocks it fails to 2HKO (6.25%+93.6%=99.85%). Not only that, but at +1 psyshock does 94.4% - 111.7%, a 1HKO with rocks. So it looks like you can't just spam hydropump.

If you use hidden power ghost though the story changes as it does 58.8%+39.6%=98.4%, which under rocks would kill.
 

Katakiri

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Faster Pokemon and Choice Scarfers. It's not hard to beat Keldeo.
He 2HKOes a large portion of the metagame, but that's only a 2HKO, which isn't good enough if they can hit Keldeo back & OHKO him.
 
Call me a crazy theorymoner, but if you just calm mind before the second hit, the maximum damage if you get high damage rolls is 93.6%, asuming leftovers recovery and one hit off stealth rocks it fails to 2HKO (6.25%+93.6%=99.85%). Not only that, but at +1 psyshock does 94.4% - 111.7%, a 1HKO with rocks. So it looks like you can't just spam hydropump.

If you use hidden power ghost though the story changes as it does 58.8%+39.6%=98.4%, which under rocks would kill.
Hmm, good point. I forgot to take that into account (although I got 100.48% damage as the maximum with CM, SR, and Lefties taken into account, a small chance for a 2HKO). Still, the fact that Latias takes so much damage is a testament to this thing's power, and like you said, HP Ghost/Ice has the potential to seal the deal.
 

BurningMan

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As far as Hidden Powers go i am pretty sure HP Ice is more useful than HP Ghost, simply because Dragonite and Salamence are much bigger threats than Jellicent is, sure you maybe not get past it but i would much rather switch someting into a scald coming from an uninvested SpA than switching something into a Pokemon that can boost up and sweep your team or simply destroy the switch in, because much like Keldeo itself these Pokemon can 2HKO the entire OU Tier with the right moves.

Sure DNite and Mence are both 2HKOd by rain boosted Hydro Pumps, but they could always switch in on you after you KOed something.

What i think is really threatening about Keldeo is that its as bulky as Terrakion, but with a far far better typing wich makes it almost impossible to OHKO without a choiced or SE attack.
 
Keldeo is a Pokemon that has always created doubts about his ranking in the Battling.
The statistics make it very similar to Terrakion, since he shares with the same potential offensive (but inverted), and the same speed.
Nevertheless, it is very different from the companion Keldeo moschettiere.With Politoed with the ability Drizzle, Keldeo can abuse powerful Hydro Pump or Surf, which among other things can also be boosted by Calm Mind.A complete what, owns the powerful Keldeo Focus Blast, which combined with his special attack in some circumstances could even win against a Blissey!
But the colt has counters.First Tornadus of all, that may exceeds Keldeo and OHKO with Hurricane.Also in a Calm Mind war against Virizion, the horse she will be defeated.
But it is also true that Keldeo has other powerful arsenal. Just think of the now famous Hidden Power, which together with its basic moves makes it extremely unpredictable, with a perfect coverage.
Keldeo but, unlike Terrakion, also has a certain versatility: Swords dance with Aqua Jet, the foal can overcome all with a priority comparable to that of Azumarill, but combined with an optimum speed.
 
Choice Specs Keldeo probably wont be seen nearly as much as the Calm Mind, since Choice Specs requires Politoed to work to its full potential.

The Calm Mind will be a bigger threat since it can easily sweep weakened teams after just one turn, and it has pretty nice typing to allow it to set up on a lot of common stuff, and just enough bulk to survive powerful attacks (Excluding Latios meteors and Terrakion CCs etc).

From there it can pretty much sweep just using Surf and Secret Sword and its hidden power of choice.
 

alamaster

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.A complete what, owns the powerful Keldeo Focus Blast, which combined with his special attack in some circumstances could even win against a Blissey!
Nobody uses Focus Blast, the better move is Sacred (Secret? I forget) Sword which hits on the physical side which means he will always beat stuff like Blissey/Snorlax. Unboosted it already does like 80% to Blissey and has 100% acc. If there's ever an attack to use besides Focus Blast, use that because that move is terrible.

Also to the above guy, pretty sure Keldeo survives Jolly Band CC from Terrak, Adamant ones lose due to getting outsped and Jolly at best has a 50% chance to win even if it does OHKO.

One more thing to add is the move Substitute, which can be very useful for setting up on weak water types not named Jellicent (since with just his two stab moves for attacking Jelli is immune) and evading Status, etc. If you predict your opponent will switch you can always Sub and get a really hard hit on something (Hydro Pump unboosted in the rain deals a ton of damage even to the pokemon who resist it). Or you can just start Calm Minding up. Damn, what a boss.
 
What do you guys think of Keldeo being used outside of rain? How viable is it exactly? We see a lot of teams without Sand with Terrakion, but that's because it doesn't necessarily need it. How essential is that rain for Keldeo?

Also, what do you guys think of Bulk Up Toxicroak as a counter?
 
Well, unless it carries HP Electric or Stone Edge, like on the Swords Dance set, I can immagine Guarados will do a fairly good job at checking Keldeo, especially bulky G-Dos. While its rare, Gyarados with Bounce make its life even harder.
 
I'd say that it's a pretty solid counter... in Rain. It's an especially efficient counter to Choice Specs Keldeo, which can decimate most Rain teams, and can handle the CM version quite reliably as well.
 

alamaster

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I'd say Toxicroak is one of the best counters to Keldeo in the Rain. Immune to its main STAB, heals in the Rain and can use Bulk Up which weakens Secret Sword (hits on the physical side). If you pump Special Defense evs in his spread (which you should if its the Bulk Up set) the hidden powers won't do a whole lot either, and Drain Punch recovers your hp back.
 

Dark Fallen Angel

FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
I'd say that it's a pretty solid counter... in Rain. It's an especially efficient counter to Choice Specs Keldeo, which can decimate most Rain teams, and can handle the CM version quite reliably as well.
And what about Tornadus? Keldeo can be OHKOed by Hurricane unless it has 2 CM boosts. Outside of rain, it can even OHKO Keldeo with Acrobatics, and in that case, no matter what Keldeo do, it cannot survive. However, Tornadus cannot switch into Hydro Pump or Hidden Power Ice at all.
 
I have been waiting for this day back in the early stages of Gen 5's metagame. That's before rain became a giant whorefest! I can't wait!

The power to kill Blissey, Ttar, and Ninetales is what really sold me on this guy.

In my eyes, he'll be the new face of rain running around with Tornadus.
 
I'd say Toxicroak is one of the best counters to Keldeo in the Rain.
That is what sucks though, you have to use that counter in Keldeo's best environment. No one is going to use Toxicroack on a non-rain team. That means for offense teams, where people don't use Jellicent/Latias, it is going to be Rain vs Rain >_>

And to those who say Gyarados might be a good check:

Rain Choice Specs Hydro Pump vs 176 HP EV's Bullky DD gyarados: 64%-75%

So after SR our favorite sea leviathan gets 88% of its health taken off as the minimum (comes at this way since it rounds down). So your Gyarados is going have to be near full health if it comes in to check Keldeo after something dies (i.e. no SR on the field either). There is one interesting thing I should note: good luck rapid spinning. As many of you have mentioned, there is a possibility of an increase of Jellicent to counter Keldeo. Jellicent also happens to be OU's favorite spinblocking buddy next to Gengar. So my theorymoning leads me beleive if Keldeo gets released, Rapid Spinning is going to get a lot harder.
 
That is true, toxicroak is a big counter, but i guess rain teams help but also harm keldeo XD. So far the old PERFECT checks i know are toxicroak, jellicent and celebi. Vaporeon can wall its hydro pump with water absorb, but im not sure if sacred sword would do alot, so i guess relying on grass and water types is the way to go when countering keldeo!
 

alamaster

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And what about Tornadus? Keldeo can be OHKOed by Hurricane unless it has 2 CM boosts. Outside of rain, it can even OHKO Keldeo with Acrobatics, and in that case, no matter what Keldeo do, it cannot survive. However, Tornadus cannot switch into Hydro Pump or Hidden Power Ice at all.
Yeah Tornadus is a great check, but it can't switch in unless you know your opponent will use Calm Mind. Sub variants also beat Tornadus.

That is what sucks those, you have to use that counter in Keldeo's best environment. No one is going to use Toxicroack on a non-rain team. That means for offense teams, where people don't use Jellicent/Latias, it is going to be Rain vs Rain >_>
Why can't you use Latias on an offensive team? It's pretty good with Calm Mind/Psyshock and it may see an increase of use with those teams when Keldeo is released. Latios can also counter Keldeo nicely as well and is obviously a better offensive choice than Latias. Hmm, maybe we'll see some Keldeo/Politoed/Tyranitar teams since Tar basically beats all of the checks (minus Croak) that can take a Hydro Pump and KO afterwards.
 

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