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Impact BW2: Change in Playstyle of Sun / Rain

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by barry4ever, Aug 31, 2012.

  1. barry4ever

    barry4ever
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    [​IMG]

    Hey people! With the gradual passing of time after the release of BW2, the metagame has finally settled enough to allow us to closely look at the metagame and note the sutble changes which have taken place in the time BW2 was released. With the influx of a large number of threats notably Kyurem-W, Latias, Genie trio, Ho-Oh the playstyle of rain or sun balance (or offense) has changed to a certain extent. This thread aims to find out these little changes and then tabulate them to get a basic idea of the BW2 Uber metagame which we have developed.

    The following are a basic list of the additions to the respective weather and a brief overview of what they do.

    Rain

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Ironically, in Ubers rain did not gain too much like in OU, its only real gains being Genesect and the genie trios. Rather, rain has a lot going against it with Latias here to wall Kyogre to death. Genesect is comparable Scizor on steroids. Scarf set is amazing, checks a lot of dangerous mons in Ubers with U-turn and coverage. Download is a amazing ability. Great Latias check, handy Steel type as well. Good ol' Lugia is still as bulky as ever, Multiscale being released is a boon for it. Multiscale is useful if you an assure stealth rock is off the field otherwise Pressure is more useful, Speedy Lugia with multiscale may make a return but the old sub + D tail Pressure shuffler still looks as solid as ever. The two therian genies Thundurus-T and Landorus-T are a boost to rain aas well. In general, rain did not get too much as compared to the goodies sun recieved.

    Sun

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Sun has arguably benifited the most from BW2 getting the almighty Regenerator Ho-Oh, Soul Dew Latias and monstrous Kyurem-W to pump up its cache. Sun looks as viable as it did in DPP with rain no longer having the upperhand over it. Ho-Oh: The greatest DW mon to be released period. With Regenerator, Ho-Oh doesnt give a fuck about Stealth Rock, Ho-Oh gains a massive amount of bulk gaining a third of its hp each turn letting it switch in and out quite a few times before it gets worn out. If you have a spinner, your opponent better start praying since its gonna be a painful match. Extremely threatening for teams not packing dedicated checks. Apart from Ho-Oh, Latias is arguably one of the greatest addition to the Uber metagame is a impenetrable fortress for rain to breach. High SpD, good resistances, immunities to Spikes, Kyogre Check, fantastic offensive pivot guarantee it a stop on most teams. Last but not the least comes Kyurem-W, the most threatening mon in the entire game. With its base 170 spa, its choice specs draco meteor will instantly obliterate anything it touches. The only real checks to it are Jirachi and Steel Arceus neither of whom like taking a sun boosted Fusion Flare or a Focus Blast. Scarf and Life Orb sets work well too.

    But, we know all that I listed above. What the objective of this thread is to discuss with the influx of these threats how YOU have personally changed / tweaked your style of play to counter the opposing weather, your experiences on the ladder, your teams if you want to post any, interesting battle replays.

    Questions meant to be answered:

    1) Has the metagame become more offensive or more stallish ?
    2) What are the rising underrated threats that weather can abuse in the current metagame ?
    3) What type of anti metagame pokemon do you predict ?
    4) Is dedicated rain / sun offense still as good as in BW ?

    Discuss and have fun!
  2. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    1) Has the metagame become more offensive or more stallish ?

    I personally don't think the metagame has changed much at all, even with the new threats. In terms of viability, both offense and defense are still very much in balance. Offensive play might seem more appealing right now with all the new threats like Kyurem-W, Genesect, Regenerator Ho-oh, but stall is still as good as ever, with stuff like Soul Dew Latias and Multiscale Lugia to tip the favour. So yeah, if the metagame seems more offensive now, you shouldn't be surprised, since people are more easily drawn to offensive threats than defensive ones.

    2)What are the rising underrated threats that weather can abuse in the current metagame ?

    Personally, I think Landorus-T is awesome. It is like the perfect Groudon switch-in on a rain team. It's immune to Earthquake, Spikes and Toxic Spikes, while having great support options like Intimidate and Stealth Rock. I've been running a defensive set lately and it's just boss.

    Otherwise, you have your Latias to take on Kyogre, Thunder Wave Kyogre to stuff Latias switch-ins and Genesect to U-turn on Latias and so forth. We all know this stuff already. Then you have stuff like Specs Kingdra which was good all along but I never got around to use it.

    3)What type of anti metagame pokemon do you predict ?

    Can't really think of much at the moment that people aren't using already.

    4)Is dedicated Rain / sun offense still as good as in BW ?

    Of course. I'm using Specs Kingdra at the moment and it's just amazing.
  3. pwnage77

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    The following are totally my opinions alone. By all means, feel free to criticize.

    1) Has the metagame become more offensive or more stallish ?

    Well, I'd say both. With Multiscale Lugia and Soul Dew Latias out, things couldn't get much worse. Combine these two with things like Steel Arceus (for Dragon and Ice sponge), then you've got a pretty decent stall core. The only worrying thing is Darkrai, as usual. For the offensive part, I'd say two pokemon would be great additions to teams. First off, Zekrom. With Multiscale Lugia now being a huge pain in the ass, Zekrom's STAB Bolt Strike ensures OHKO thanks to Terravolt. Now some people may think that Kyurem-B is a better option thanks to having the same ability and similar movepool (while having Ice STAB), fret not. Zekrom's STAB Bolt Strike is stronger that Kyurem-B's Fusion Bolt. And besides, Zekrom will work as a better lure to Groudon than Kyurem-B thanks to Groudon fearing that Ice move. Second pokemon is incredibly rare but still useful. Jirachi the wish maker. Choice Scarf Variants will seriously obliterate any Kyurem form available out there. It can even switch in on Kyurem-W's Fusion Flare provided that Jirachi is at full health and that the sun isn't shining. It can just deal with the Kyurem forms easily with STAB Iron Head with 60% flinch. If luck isn't your game, then Choice Scarf Palkia is still a viable choice however it cannot switch in on any Dragon STAB that the Kyurems have to offer.

    2)What are the rising underrated threats that weather can abuse in the current metagame ?

    Well like I said earlier, Choice Scarf Jirachi. Explanations are all up there ^.

    3)What type of anti metagame pokemon do you predict ?

    I would be most certain about Terrakion. I have seen a lot of people using it lately to deal with Ho-Oh and Kyurem forms. Lugia also gets hurt by Stone Edge and can even 2HKO without boosts after Stealth Rock. A 252 Stone Edge will do 49.51 - 59.13% to a 252/176+ Lugia, well without Multiscale of course. Kyurem forms are weak to its STABs and Terrakion naturally outspeeds them so Choice Scarf Kyurems aren't much of a problem. But as expected, it absolutely must not switch into any attack (bar Fusion Flare) as it will easily die. Even without these threats, Terrakion can still function as a SD Rayquaza and Normal Arceus check without much trouble.

    4)Is dedicated Rain / sun offense still as good as in BW ?

    I'd totally say yes to Rain but no to Sun. Without Latias, Sun teams cannot handle any Choiced Kyogre, unless you can play around the opponent and predict his next move. Though Latias could be seen as a defensive Pokemon (it must do so in order to survive Kyogre's attacks), with Soul Dew and at least one Calm Mind boost, it can easily sweep through unprepared or weakened teams with ease. With Soul Dew and a Calm Mind boost, Latias receives more SpA than +2 without Soul Dew. Well for Rain Teams, not much will change except the genies.Thundurus is, IMO, a faster but frailer Palkia. Electric isn't a bad STAB at all. Though with many Dragons residing in Ubers, Palkia will be much more of use.
  4. Jibaku

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    1) Has the metagame become more offensive or more stallish ?
    Neither, really. BW2 Granted us both about the same amount of defensive and offensive mons. Lugia, Ho-Oh, Lati@s, Landorus-T, and hey, even Genesect can be offensive and defensive (well you probably aren't going to use Gene to tank hits but it checks stuff pretty well and is one of the better ways to annoy the living daylights out of Mewtwo). Spikes still remains supreme imo and it's probably not changing for a while - unless a massive cult of antispikes ladderers come by of course xD

    2)What are the rising underrated threats that weather can abuse in the current metagame ?
    I'm not sure what exactly this is asking - do you mean the mon abusing weather? Anyways, I used defensive Landorus-T early on and it's great. The 4x Ice weakness is rather annoying to deal with though as a random Tyranitar could probably just Ice Beam is to death but otherwise it's a solid Ground physical wall choice for rain teams, only really competing with Ground Arceus. But surely, this means you could use another Arceus forme?

    3)What type of anti metagame pokemon do you predict ?

    Because the metagame doesn't particularly favor certain playstyles this can be rather hard to pinpoint. I'd say approaching the anti metagame is best done by devising certain sets and spreads on some existing Pokemon moreso than finding a new Pokemon. Due to the versatility of them Pokemon in the metagame, it is very difficult to cover up everything each of them can do. Something like Whirlwind Ho-Oh can completely dismantle teams that rely on Giratina to wall the regular Ho-Oh. Thunder Wave Kyogre is also a nasty surprise to the common Latias switch in.

    4)Is dedicated Rain / sun offense still as good as in BW ?
    Yes, although dedicated sun offense was always borderline in terms of being good. Dedicated Sun offense has the potential to output crazy amounts of damage but is more weather reliant than rain (IMO) and tends to dislike Stealth Rock more. On the rainy side of things, imo one of the biggest problems rain offense had back in DPPt was Lati@s, and with their return in BW2 they are still something to keep in mind, especially if they have Thunder. However, BW2 overall should have an easier time dealing with them, with Arceus and Genesect available. But really, both offensive playstyles should remain as viable as they were in BW
  5. mtr

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    The metagame remains stallish just because its easier to ladder with stall than it is with offense. Ferrothorn remains the linchpin of Rainstall, and it sets up layers so readily that its a better pick on most teams than Forretress. Forretress has a more limited usage as an anti-stall Pokemon that matches well against Ferrothorn.

    Offense will probably always be better in tourneys tho, because if you advertise that you're a stall player, you get to see an orgy of Sub Mewtwo (who derps on Rainstall), Darkrai, and Gliscors.

    One thing to note is that CB Kyurem-B literally butchers stall teams, who lack a switch-in to 170 Atk CB Outrages. The only way I see around this involves using a physically defensive Steel.


    I don't think there are any tbh. Maybe Genesect is a bit underrated..

    One thing for sure tho, Scizor is a bag of derp now. The only uses it has are the Swords Dancer set (which blows balls in Ubers) and a Tickle/Pursuit trapper with Wobbuffet, which faces competition from Tyranitar.

    Also, Cresselia is pretty underrated as a Mewtwo check in the Sun. You have to remember that no Mewtwo uses Fire Blast because then they get walled by Giratina.


    Hippowdon, Sand is a great weather in Ubers, and it deals with Ho-oh way better than Groudon.
  6. polop

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    1) Has the metagame become more offensive or more stallish ?

    Well like everyone else has said, neither. There is a clear rise in balanced teams though, right now most teams don't focus everything in defense or spam attacks like no tommorow. This does mean that there is a bit more "anti-meta" stuff but I'll move onto that later... Spike Stacking remains the dominant strategy, although I do remember Tornadus-T (which suprisingly isn't mentioned anywhere) does give it issues. Its Special Attack may be a bit underwhelmling but its ability to evade all hazard damage more then compensates for that (well unless gravity is up but...), oh that and the new Mold Breaker Excadrill along with the improved Regenerator Ho-oh really is encouraging the use of Giratina-a for stall teams! Since the physically defensive variant is the only reliable "check" that exists. Oh and you know what that means... MORE FORRY!!! Yeah this meta goes in circles doesn't it...

    2) What are the rising underrated threats that weather can abuse in the current metagame ?

    TORNADUS-T, no seriously, being able to switch in and spam Specs Hurricanes and switch out without suffering Stealth Rock damage is COOL. Its also wonderful that you outspeed all Arceus by 1 BASE POINT!!! I was play testing around with some other strange stuff too. I really think Rayquaza enjoys this meta immensely. As strange as it seems, I was trying out Steeldragon's really old Para Dancer Rayquaza and it actually is scarily effective. All the Genesect and Scarfed Palkia (which for some reason have deteriorated in usage) that come in ready to revenge KO you now must face being OHKOed the turn after, but thats a different story to tell... I'm going to try Sub Dragon Dance later too since basically any set of its right now is just really effective (sorry Multiscale Lugia but you can't stop this with rocks!) with all the balance. This may not sound like it helps any weather team but since its only meant to break holes... it can really help a swift swimmer / chlorophyll user out.

    3) What type of anti metagame pokemon do you predict ?

    Two words. Stall Two (Stall Mewtwo). Guess what Pokemon can beat Specs Kyurem-W, Soul Dew Lati@s, annoy stall, and take advantage of all the popularity Roar Giratina-a is getting? I'm not even going into how important that elitist speed tier has become. The only problem is that getting rid of Ho-oh just got a LOT harder, but that doesn't mean its useless. Reshiram's decline in usage only means that you only have to target ONE Pokemon to start "sweeping" oh and Wobbufett can get rid of later or allow something to Shell Smash. Speaking of which...

    Cloyster and Omastar, both really love the metagame right now. Cloyster's main check a long time ago was Cro Kyogre and Support Arceus Formes. With Latias around most Kyogre have shifted to Thunder Wave variants and Latias seems to be used over most Grass Arceus and Water Arceus for teams that need a Specs Ogre counter. Just the perfect time for Cloyster to steal the spotlight right? Omastar also benefited, with the increased amount of Ice-type attacks being spammed Omastar just found an easier time setting up infront of random attacks! The ability to use Kyurem-W's Ice Beam as setup for a Shell Smash is ENORMOUS, although I do have to admit I have changed the set I used to one with Ice Beam, HP Rock, and Hydro Pump, just because I can't OHKO Kyurem formes with Ice Beam anymore :(. It also helps beat Ho-oh if you don't want to risk a Hydro Miss, since Omastar's typing actually allows it to counter Ho-oh to a mediocre effect.

    Also what I'd really like to discuss about "anti-meta" is what it has become. Jibaku posted something about Thunder Wave Kyogre being anti-meta but due to how common that has become, is it still anti-meta? Again I'm not sure... I just posted obscure threats that seem to do great in the current meta.

    4) Is dedicated rain / sun offense still as good as in BW ?

    Offense is good, if not better then it was in BW. With the rise of balance this seems to be the best time to bring out the old Deoxys-S + 5 attackers with good synergy team. The extremely heavy defensive backbone on most teams right now really means that its much easier for Kyogre to break a random hole into a team, then have the rest of the swift swim squad use that hole to open up a clean late game. With Kyurem-W and Kyurem-B (Shrang's hone claws set rocks sorry), two pokemon that are nearly IMPOSSIBLE to wall, and their versatility to fit on either team can allow a faster mon to clean up late game.

    On a random note the OP should list Excadrill in rain just because its become so fearsome to the point where Giratina-o have started running Earthquake 0_0.
  7. Pokémon Trainer R

    Pokémon Trainer R

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    Why is Lugia being placed under rain in the opening post? Not only is Lugia viable in every single weather there is, but the weather it enjoys the most is actually Sun, due to the lack of residual damage from Hail and Sandstorm, the 50% accuracy of Thunder as opposed to the 100% accuracy of this move in the rain, and the inability to be frozen by Ice Beam (which it tends to tank a lot). Not only that, but Sun teams also have a much greater tendency to carry countermeasures against entry hazards, and as such Lugia is far less likely to have its Multiscale ruined by Stealth Rock on such teams. The only weakness Lugia gains in the Sun is Blue Flare, but that isn't quite enough to make up for all the other factors.
  8. polop

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    I'll try to answer your question to the best of my ability trainer r.

    Everything you have mentioned so far is correct,you basically outlined the reasons why lugia is such a great Mon in classic stall. It really doesn't care about which weather it is in though, since its adept at doing its job in all weather.

    Honestly lugia was probably just placed in rain for to make it look like it got something and wasn't battered up this gen however there are a few positives towards using lugia in rain which is why I feel they may have placed lugia in rain. 1stly, every rapid spinner in the tier appreciates rain far more then sun. Excadrill enjoys the ability to stop hidden power fire gira-o, tentacruel appreciates having kyogre activate rain dish, kabutops becomes a far more threatening spinner and gains the ability to outspeed and ohko ghost arceus with a Swords dance, rain boosted waterfall, forretress's fire weakness is suppressed, and lastly, rain can deal with kyurem white far more easily then sun can, thanks to having a valuable ice-resist in kyogre. I think you would agree with me in that's a pokemon that annoys lugia right? Rain also has conditions that favor hazard users. Forry and ferrothorn, the most common users of spikes often find themselves preferring to be in rain teams more then sun teams, and as a player that's used lugia before, wouldn't you agree with me that it gets almost all of its damage from phazing with hazards up? I'm going to agree with you that the summoner of sun gets stealth rocks, but it doesn't get spikes, and rain can just utilize another stealth rock user if that turns into an issue. This also brings me to my second point, why use lugia as a physical wall when you have an incredibly sturdy one in Groudon? Wouldn't you just be wasting a valuable teamslot? Lugia is perfectly viable in sun, don't get me wrong but if you already have so much insurance against physical attacks why not cover up the pecial spectrum which you've left hanging? Why not use a specially defensive gira-a in that spot to spinblock? Why not use a chansey to pass wishes and stop basically every special attack? Why not fix that specs ogre weakness that you've noticed?

    At the end of the day, both weathers can pick lugia and use the great wall to great effect, but the advantages it gives to rain (and the fact that it makes it appear that rain didn't lose tooo much) and the advantages it receives in rain probably outnumber the advantages lugia gains in sun (well at least to the post creator). That and trickroom drowned all is very influential and likely encouraged the decision of putting lugia in rain :p.

    I apologize if this wall of text is a bit intimidating, but I had sooo much to tell.
  9. mtr

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    Forretress is hard to fit on Rain teams because without Ferrothorn they tend to be weak to Zekrom, Kyogre, and Manaphy, among other things. The advantage of Forry is that it gives you a strong matchup against teams using Ferrothorn.

    For example, here's a challenge: make a Rainstall/Rain Balance team without Ferrothorn. Its pretty difficult.

    The best I could do was:

    Kyogre (Mono-Attacker)
    Forretress (use HP Ice for Gliscor :) )
    Groundceus (Swords Dancer or Perish Song user)
    Chansey (Wish Passer or Snatch)
    Giratina (Specially Defensive)
    Dialga (Scarfed with Outrage for Lati Twins)



    Sun can use Forry because it doesn't tend to be too bothered by Zekrom or Manaphy. For example:

    Groudon
    Forretress
    Ho-oh
    Latias
    Giratina-O
    Scarf Filler

    is a pretty typical Sun team.
  10. Ragdoll

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    I'm not too sure of Lugia on a rain team. Hopefully no one can outspeed him using thunder during a rainstorm.
  11. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    i've done this before Lati@s was released but it gets a bit tricky with them out now. I gave this a thought again at the bus early in the morning as to how to cover them up but it might not be enough. Regardless, here we go.

    Forretress
    SDef Dialga with Dragon Tail (lol)
    Giratina-O
    Groundceus
    Specs Kyogre
    Scarf Palkia

    Hopefully between Forretress, Dialga, Giratina-O, and Scarf Palkia, Lati@s can be contained. Nothing's really out of the ordinary in this teamset. You will likely have some issues against Palkia but most rain teams do anyways. Try to not let Manaphy set up too much or it'll break the team, so keep it away with Dialga's DTail and eventually the Thunders from Palkia/Kyogre.

    Watch out for Gastrodon because it can actually do a lot of damage to this team. Gastrodon kindof sucks anyways so you probably won't see much.

    Alternatively, Scarf Kyogre/Latias could work on the last two slots but this mangnifies the lati weak so idk.

    Excadrill/Skarm/Kyogre/Grassceus/Giratina-O/some rayquaza counter could also maybe work but the last slot can actually be difficult. The team currently doesn't lead very well (imo) so /shrug. Watch the 3 fire weaks. Surf Lati@s destroys this but no one uses Surf really but you might still want to keep an eye out on that. Manaphy prob forces you to run cm on grassceus.

    Ugh Ferrothorn is just super annoying and I try to avoid using it as much as possible because Ferrowars are incredibly stupid and there aren't really a lot of counterplays around it.
  12. polop

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    Actually, Zekrom can bypass Ferrothorn with its Mix set and Sub Claws set, Kyogre 2HKOes Ferro with Choice Specs Spout and Ferro has to run Power Whip to beat Sub CM, not to mention Power Whip means Sub Latias can setup against it.

    Challenge Accepted?

    Kyogre (scarf or rest talk Scald (then Roar or CM), the decision is yours)
    Lugia (standard Reflect + Ice beam)
    Chansey (standard cleric)
    Forry (standard spiker?)
    Sp Def. gira-a or Gira-O (all gira-o sets work really...)
    If scarf ogre + Sp def gira-a, you have a free slot leftover to pick whatever you want, perferrably a stall breaker
    If Scarf Ogre + Gira-O go with Latias or Lustrous Orb / Choice Specs Palkia or Grass Arceus
    If Rest talk Ogre + Gira-O go with Choice Scarf Palkia
    If Rest talk Ogre + Sp Def. Gira-a you have a free slot to pick any Choice Scarf mon that you want.

    Granted the Lugia Chansey core is a bit cheap but I don't really care :P. Also about Zekrom being problematic... If its really that bad just go Scarf ogre + Sp def gira-a and toss in a Groundceus or Grass Arceus. Or you could listen to trickroom!

    There are other posts by trickroom that say the same thing :D. But I couldn't find the others so I just went with a quote off of the ubers combo thread.

    Also your team that you improvised for sun, every member 2HKOed by Specs Ice Beam from Kyurem-W, with or without Rocks. Dragon Dance Mix Quaza can prove troublesome with Rocks and practically forces you to run Scarf Kia, Scarf Gene, or Scarf Terrak, all of them are 2HKOed by Specs Ice beam. Forry's lack of reliable Recovery also makes it a really iffy choice if your going to use it as your only Dragon resist IMO. Although thats enough hating :P.

    About the discussion... CM and Dragon Dance Latios is extremely anti-metagame. I was using CM Latios with Sub CM Kyogre on a Rain team with a set of CM Dragon Pulse Surf Thunder to abuse the fact Sub CM Ogre beats the pulp out of Chansey and Gyro Ball less Ferrothorn, and ironically Ferrothorn needs Gyro to insure Latios won't setup more CM's on it XD.

    Dragon Dance Latios is really cool with all the Genesect running rampant in the meta. The look of your opponent confidently switching in his Scarf Sect on you only to have it get outsped and OHKOed with a sun boosted HP Fire is priceless. Then you proceed to sweep the rest of your team with your awesome Dragon-STAB and the fact you have about the power of a Life Orb Mewtwo but the Speed to outspeed the whole metagame barring rare stuff like Choice Scarf Mewtwo, Choice Scarf Skymin, Choice Scarf Darkrai, and Swift Swim and Cholorphyll users.

    EDIT: NOOOO JIBAKU HAS BEAT ME WHILE I WAS TYPING :( NOW TO RESPOND TO HIS POST!

    Xatu is viable just for that T_T, also

    Scarf Kia 2HKOes it with Outrage, and considering all the Latias running around its actually not that bad of a move to have around. :P

    Please read Post 8 :(.
  13. gookie

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    I want to post a problem teambuilders have traditionally had since the advent of BW2,

    while I do think that Kyurem-W is an overrated Pokemon, its Specs set is hard to ignore, as it stomps over what is traditionally a very strong Dragon check in rain, Grass Arceus.

    Furthermore, sun teams have a habit of running at least one of three threats, the aforementioned Kyurem-W, Ho-Oh, or Reshiram - is it possible for rain to contain all these threats?

    The only real hard counter to Kyurem-W is Chansey or Blissey (and even then hazards make it difficult if it uses Focus Blast). Ho-Oh also walks all over Arceus Grass and really only dislikes Toxic or Thunder Wave, Reshiram also does not have many problems with Arceus Grass. In fact, these two Pokemon are practically immune to Arceus Grass if it is using Will-O-Wisp. Rock Arceus is a decent check to both of these, but fears Focus Blast from both Reshiram and Kyurem-W.

    I have actually been running Rock Arceus on rain, although the exasperated water weak isn't nice, it ability to check these threatening Pokemon is greatly appreciated, scoring super-effective STAB on all of them. Prioritizing Stealth Rock is especially important with dealing with all of these. Another problem arises, however, in that you are probably now forced to run Chansey or Ferrothorn (shaky) to deal with Palkia, which is by no means a terrible thing, just that Chansey is huge hazard bait more often than not...

    tl;dr How are you guys dealing with the triple threat of Kyurem-W, Ho-Oh, and Reshiram? (I'm more interested in defensive strategies than offensive ones, as Kyurem-W has a tendency to kill something every time it comes in, Ho-Oh has Substitute and Reshiram is often in the same boat as Kyurem-W)
  14. polop

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    You realize your Support Water Arceus sun set can just tweak the EVs a bit and like magic it now counters all three of them (yes it can absorbs Specs Draco Meteors and use Recover, yes it still handles Ho-oh (Life Orb variants aren't friendly though)... Granted running Water Arceus may be a bit annoying in rain since your probably going to start type-stacking but hey it gets your Specs Ogre check covered too, meaning you can choose from a variety of Revenge-killers now or don't have to rely on that Latias, and it gets Fire Blast to actually stop Ferrothorn too UNLIKE A CERTAIN DRAGON !_!.

    You do have to change your EV spread now though so that you can outspeed Timid Kyurem-W and Recover before it fires off a second Specs Draco Meteor. In theory any Arceus form can do this but Water Arceus is special since it utterly destroys Reshiram. Its resistance to that Sacred Fire of Ho-oh's is also a big boon. The spread of 252 HP / 168 Spe / 90 SDef, with a Calm nature does the job fine.

    Cro Kyogre with a bit more Special Defense investment can handle the Reshiram and Kyurem but it can't handle Ho-oh. Although you can lure a Sacred Fire and switch Kyogre into it and weaken one of its STAB moves. Combine that with random Arceus support form not weak to Flying and you can handle the two as well. Dialga is an alternative to Arceus and it works wonders since it is capable of beating Ho-oh in rain and can setup Stealth Rock which Ho-oh hates. Or you could be a massive troll and run Bulk Up Dialga and laugh as its Sacred Fire's bounce right off while you Rest of any burns.

    My personal favorite way of dealing with the two though is none other then the good old combination of Reflect Lugia and Chansey core of trickroom's. Reflect Lugia can handle Ho-oh easily unless its doing something stupid like running Choice Banded Sacred Fires with maximum speed (I can switch to Ogre then...) while Chansey flat out lols at Kyurem-W and Reshiram. I'm surprised you haven't mentioned Blaziken though. In my opinion, its far more threatening just because that Roar set freaks me out more then anything else in the meta DX. +2 Life Orbed Flare Blitz under the sun hurts like hell, it OHKOes 252 / 176 + nature Lugia. You have Giratina-a for abusing it but it easily beats it with Roar :(. Cro Kyogre is your most reliable check and its taking over 90% from a +2 Hi Jump Kick, you have prediction and suicidal recoil on your side but is that really enough?
  15. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    @ Resh Kyu Ho-Oh
    All three of them being weak to rock should at least decrease their usefulness if they are all on one team. But Rockceus/Terrakion aside, Reshiram and Kyurem-W possess similar counters anyways so if you covered one you probably covered the other...unless you're using Kyogre as your Reshiram check in which case...good luck against Kyurem-W.

    Specially Defensive Ho-Oh is a pretty awesome stop to both Kyurem-W and Reshiram (Specs Modest DM from Kyurem-W doesn't even 2HKO lol), and can also be used as a buffer against enemy Ho-Oh's Sacred Fire. Of course, the plan gets ruined if they have SR up. But thankfully they're all weak to SR so get yours up as well and they probably won't be causing too much chaos. Oh and Ho-Oh does a good job stopping Blaziken so that's another fiery threat out of the way xD
  16. polop

    polop
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    I was actually testing a sort of Specially Defensive Rest talk roar ogre and it was actually really good at neutering the massive threat K-white was. To give an example, Modest Specs Draco Meteor has a pretty good chance of failing to 2HKO if there are no Stealth Rocks up. Since Draco Meteor has a good chance to fail to 2HKO you can rest up the turn after, but at best its only a "check" since sleep mechanics suck. At worst your getting rolls so bad that the chances of them happening are the chances of a crit happening, or you get critted.

    Anyone that has used Tyranitar knows how difficult it is switching it into something that can probably OHKO you the turn after with a Specs Focus Blast, but if you switch in on Specs Draco or something you can catch it trying to run away and Pursuit it. If K-white or Reshiram took Stealth Rock damage upon entering they will be weakened to the point where they cannot come back in alive (unless rapid spin). Tyranitar can do a similar job against Ho-oh lacking Earthquake with Stone Edge and Pursuit, but its much harder thanks to Sacred Fire burns, Stone Edge just never hitting, and Substitute just further increasing the chances of something going wrong.

    Wait wut, +2 Jolly Life Orbed Flare Blitz in the sun vs. 252 HP Ho-oh (94.47 - 111.29%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO... :( I will agree that Poppy's physically defensive set does stop Blaziken though. Granted you are probably suiciding due to recoil but still that damage is a bit scary D:. Its one of those
    I think the most annoying thing about K-white and Reshiram is that Genesect can't revenge it (I HAVE NOT SEEN MANY OTHER PHYSICAL SCARF SECT DO NOT ACCUSE ME), and with usage of stuff like Scarf Kia at an all time low it makes sense why anyone's in trouble but this is an offensive pivot and offense suffers a lot less from a mon lost if it keeps momentum or something 0_0. Genesect also has trouble revenging Ho-oh, not just due to Substitute but if its in the sun its best chance of killing Ho-oh is with lucky Thunder hits ((38.94 - 46.15%)) <- granted Genesect is pretty weak... Thunderbolt on the other hand is so weak it doesn't even OHKO after rocks ((30.76 - 36.53%)) <- LOL. Granted PP stalling Thunderbolt is asking for parahax / crit but Ho-oh can probably recover enough HP to tank one of those hits and hit it with a Sacred Fire.
  17. Parasol_Kirby

    Parasol_Kirby

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    1) Has the metagame become more offensive or more stallish ? I'd say it's stayed about the same. Nothing great for stall or stallbreaking has been released--Ho-oh and Kyurem are just to vulnerable to hazards, and Latias can be used by either side.

    2) What are the rising underrated threats that weather can abuse in the current metagame ? I would say Ho-oh is, depending how things go, either waaay better than the hype, or waaay worse. One word: Kyogre. The second you get rid of this guy, Ho-oh WRECKS teams. But, if you can't kill him, Ho-oh is really underwhelming...Kyurem-W is overrated in general, IMO. He's literally the second iteration of all the Reshiram hype. Yeah he hits like a nuke, but if he can't switch in on much of ANYTHING, he's like a Rayquaza with no boosting moves. Which is to say, might as well be neverused.

    3) What type of anti metagame pokemon do you predict ? Latias helps beat Kyogre. Beyond that, I don't see anything changing between BW1 and BW2 in terms of counters.

    4) Is dedicated rain / sun offense still as good as in BW ? Lol, this question even needs to be asked? Of course they're both still great! Sun got some big boosts, but Kyogre is still just as threatening as ever.

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