Infernape

cosmicexplorer

pewpewpew
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Let's be clear on the difference between a "counter" and a "check."

A Counter must be able to both switch into the Pokémon it's supposed to counter, with little to no risk to itself, and also pose an immediate threat to said Pokémon
Infernape does not counter these pokemon, it forces them out so that they can switch to something that can threaten Infernape. Blaziken doesn't need to switch in on anything that even mildly threatens it; for example, it can switch in on a Choice-Locked Scizor Bullet Punch, KO and get the speed boost, then sweep. Infernape's lower speed means it can't do that. Unless you're using Choice Scarf Infernape, you shouldn't be trying to take out any sweepers. And as for what Blaziken forces out, let's see about that:
Swampert? No.
Machamp? No.
Cresselia? Hell No.
Breloom? Not behind a sub
Mixken KOs Swampert with HP Grass, LO Hi Jump Kick does ~80% to Machamp (how does Infernape beat Machamp anyway?), nothing forces Cress out besides TTar and maybe Gengar, and nothing forces out Breloom behind a sub. Period.

Blaziken checks the same things as Infernape, except for those very specific examples you gave. Blaziken is always a better sweeper; Infernape does Choice Scarf/revenge sets and leading better.
 
it can switch in on a Choice-Locked Scizor Bullet Punch, KO and get the speed boost, then sweep.
What idiot is going to keep in their Scizor when Blaziken jumps in? Unless that Scizor has Focus Sash, has taken no damage, and has Swords Dance, in which case it will just Super Power you and bring you to BUllet Punch KO range.

Or they could just switch to a counter.
 
Honestly, I think Blazekin works best with Baton Pass. Just pass +4 Speed and possibly +2 Atk to Roopushin and sweep. Getting +4 Speed isn't that hard either if you use Substitute and Protect. Phazers like Skarmory either get hit with a STAB Overheat or you just Baton Pass to something like Espeon that's immune to the phazing effect.
 

cosmicexplorer

pewpewpew
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Infernape is 2HKOed by Scizor's BP, and Blaziken is not, which means Blaziken can sweep without worrying about being revenged by random priority, while Nape is. And the point of the example was to show how Blaziken can get a speed boost and sweep where Nape can't. Blaziken outclasses Infernape as a sweeper.

EDIT: @DDRMaster: This is Infernape's thread, not Blaziken's...
 
Blaziken outclasses Infernape as a sweeper.

EDIT: @DDRMaster: This is Infernape's thread, not Blaziken's...
And I've been saying that Infernape was better at OTHER things, and more versatile. Blaziken is a sweeper. Simple as that.

And a good Baton passer too, I guess.
 
Blaziken is a better physical sweeper than Infernape, that much is obvious. I think Infernape is still better at special sweeping because of Nasty Plot, but its SD sets aren't as good as Blaziken's.
 
Wow, you seriously do overeact...

Everyone who thinks Infernape is outclassed by Blaziken, please go to the Blaziken thread. We Infernape users really want peaceful discussion.

That aside...

Infernape's usage is really going to depend on who gets banned.
If none of the Dragons are going to be banned, Infernape will have a harder type.
If most of the Dragons get banned, leaving stuff like Dragonite and Flygon left, Infernape will have a much easier time.

Why? Infernape is probably only going to be able to Revenge kill Sazandora without HP Ice. And if he get's HP Ice, Swampert is going to walk all over him.

With only few Dragons left, there will be at most 2 Dragon's on a team, making Infernape's sweep much easier. That is because pokemon that are weak to Fire and Fighting will probably dominate the metagame. Let's get some examples; Nattorei, Doryuuzu, Erufuun, etc.

And now, just another Blaziken to Infernape comparison.

Blaziken
- Speed Boost
- Better Defenses
- Better Attacking Stats

Infernape
- Faster right off the bat, meaning no protect
- Better Moves (Nasty Plot, Close Combat, etc)
- A free ability slot
- Fake Out and Mach Punch as priority

I think we should really stop discussing about Blaziken in this topic.
 

cosmicexplorer

pewpewpew
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We'll stop discussing Blaziken when you realize that it is always better than Infernape as a sweeper. Infernape is better than Blaziken as a lead and revenge killer, because of its higher initial speed and access to Iron Fist Mach Punch. However, once Blaziken gets in (not that difficult!), it is faster than Infernape and doesn't need that initial speed.

Also, Blaziken doesn't need Protect. No one should be using Blaziken as a pseudo-Scarfer, because it's simply too slow to revenge kill stuff, even with one speed boost. It can only do that if it it's running that handy priority Vacuum Wave. Blaziken will use that, or it will switch in on something that it threatens to get that speed boost. It doesn't need Protect. And what's with this free ability slot? Infernape must run Iron Fist, because Blaze does almost nothing for it. And Blaziken does get Hi Jump Kick, which is now more powerful than Close Combat.

However, Infernape does get Nasty Plot, which means it can become a very powerful special sweeper, as ungulateman pointed out above. That's one thing Infernape can do better than Blaziken. It can also lead better than Blaziken and revenge better than Blaziken. That's what this thread should be discussing, not roles that Blaziken outclasses Infernape in.

I would like to include sets that Infernape does uniquely and not outclassed by Blaziken.
EDIT@Raptorg: Blaziken is relevant because it completely outclasses Infernape in some areas. Since this thread is supposed to be discussing Infernape's niche in Gen 5, if Blaziken outclasses Ape with a certain set, then that set should not be mentioned.
 
The set I've been using on PO lately has been

Nape @ Focus Sash
Iron Fist
Timid, Attack 252, Speed 252, HP 4
Fake Out
U-turn
Mach Punch
Fire Punch

For me, its been brilliant, especially against newer threats like Sazandora, or revenge killing, as well as good synergy with other u-turners
 

LouisCyphre

heralds disaster.
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Somebody should clean this thread out, and delete all the posts mentioning Blaziken.
When you have Pokemon this similar, they're going to be compared. Just look at Dragonite and Salamence.

I personally think it's a good idea to work out their differences now.
 
And now, just another Blaziken to Infernape comparison.

Blaziken
- Speed Boost
- Better Defenses
- Better Attacking Stats
Okay.

Infernape
- Faster right off the bat, meaning no protect...
Your joking right?I don't see any set in where Protect would be needed.The only epception being a dedicated Baton Passer.Blaziken outclasses the Monkey in everything epcept revenge killing and leading.

Just give a MixKen three attacking moves, enough speed that after one turn it reaches 363/364 and Baton Pass and it becomes way better than the Monkey.You switch him into say Celebi's Grass attack. Then you fire a random attack.If they switched into Starmie/Latias(counters to the Monkey) you can just Baton Pass or if you hit them with the right move, finish them off.The opponent cannot switch something frail and fast against Blaziken due to being it outright KO'ed(Jolteon, 120+ base speed), meaning that a MixKen will either get a KO against a frail fast Pokemon or instantly Baton Pass a +1 to a Latias/Starmie/Random Dragon counter..with little to no effort on the Blaziken user.

If you are suggesting we use Protect on Blaziken then you clearly don't know how to use it effectively..Blaziken outclasses the Monkey in everything epcept leading and revenge killing.

- Better Moves (Nasty Plot, Close Combat, etc)
You forgot Grass Knot..Which are basically it..3...Not really worth it actually.Instant +1 to teamates with little effort is greater than 3 moves.

- A free ability slot
lol?You mean to say that the Monkey has nothing better...Both Abilities suck actually...


- Fake Out and Mach Punch as priority
This makes the Monkey a better lead..that's it.Stick to leading or revenge killing if you want to use the Monkey so bad.
 
An Iron Fist, Swords Dance, Mach Punch set could be ok i guess... Totally outclassed by Technician Breloom on the offensive potential but watevs. At least infernape has fire punch and higher base speed!
 
Agreeing that all mention of Blaziken should be removed (that's like 80% of the thread -.-). For the love of all things good and green people, stop derailing every thread with Dream World stuff that doesn't even exist.
 
I haven't seen one Infernape yet. With so many SS and Rain teams, Garchomp, and Shandeera, people must be discouraged from using it.
 
Infernape outclassed Blaziken in Gen IV because of its higher speed. Blaziken was UU the whole time. With Speed Boost, Blaziken can close the gap and outspeed Infernape. Meaning Blaziken probably outclasses Infernape now with the better attacking stats. Infernape will probably be in UU and possibly BL if it is too broken.
 
Infernape outclassed Blaziken in Gen IV because of its higher speed. Blaziken was UU the whole time. With Speed Boost, Blaziken can close the gap and outspeed Infernape. Meaning Blaziken probably outclasses Infernape now with the better attacking stats. Infernape will probably be in UU and possibly BL if it is too broken.
Did you not see the many posts saying "Stop mentioning Blaziken"?
 
Well i just checked Serebii and it seems that the Hoenn starters have been confirmed for release in the dream world in Japan with the purchase of some magazine. There go all my hopes and dreams :(
 
Did you not see the many posts saying "Stop mentioning Blaziken"?
When you have Pokemon this similar, they're going to be compared. Just look at Dragonite and Salamence.

I personally think it's a good idea to work out their differences now.
The moves that are exclusive to Infernape are as follows:

Taunt
Mach Punch
Grass Knot
U-Turn
Encore
Fake Out
Nasty Plot

Taunt is rather useless on Infernape, as it already makes a great stallbreaker with its flagship Nasty Plot mix set. Fake Out and Encore provide it the tools for a nice lead / disruptive set, while U-Turn allows Infernape to act as a scout (though Blaziken does have the arguably better Baton Pass). Mach Punch provides priority on the physical spectrum, but Vacuum Wave is usually better because nearly all pokemon opt to lower their SpD rather than Def when using such a nature. Grass Knot is nice, but somewhat irrelevant due to the sheer power behind Blaziken's HJK and HP.
 

cosmicexplorer

pewpewpew
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
...So the NP, lead, and Scarf sets are the only sets Nape has left that aren't outclassed. We've established that already. Let's try to move on and think of other possible moves or sets that Infernape could run.

EDIT: Oh and don't forget that Mach Punch is boosted by Iron Fist.
 

LouisCyphre

heralds disaster.
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
I think his SD sets and mixes are still viable, for now anyway, simply because everyone has it in their head that no one in their right mind that Infernape would run such a thing now that Blaziken is around.
 
Blaziken should be discussed because he affects the viability of Infernape. The other threads have other Pokemon mentioned too.
 

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