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(Insert Clever Balanced Team Name Here)

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by CrazySteve148, Jun 15, 2012.

  1. CrazySteve148

    CrazySteve148

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2012
    Messages:
    5
    So yea this team is built to take advantage of Tailwind support from Suicune

    [​IMG]
    Suicune @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 140 SAtk / 116 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Tailwind
    - Ice Beam
    - Scald
    - Protect
    Suicune and Tailwind are what originally got me thinking about this strategy. Tailwind is a truly amazing move doubling the speed of all of your pokemon. Suicune is also bulky enough to take several super effective hits and set tailwind up in the opening turn of a battle, immediately providing my team with an advantage over my opponent's pokemon. I changed some of the evs around to allow suicune to take hits better, surviving to put up tailwind a second time.


    [​IMG]
    Zapdos @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 140 HP / 252 SAtk / 116 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Heat Wave
    - Detect
    - Hidden Power [Grass]

    Originall I didn't have Zapdos providing additional support via Tailwind. But I then realized how silly it was to focus my entire strategy on one pokemon's support. Zapdos allows me to provide myself with another bulky special attacker who becomes even more fearsome when the wind is strong. I changed its berry from Charti to Lum after several suggestions and realizing it gets 2HKOed by rock slide anyway.

    [​IMG]
    Garchomp (M) @ Yache Berry
    Trait: Sand Veil
    EVs: 124 HP / 252 Atk / 132 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Dragon Claw
    - Rock Slide
    - Protect

    Garchomp is the definition of a physical sweeper. He hits hard fast and then disappears. I have several switch ins to cover his glaring ice weakness including chandelure, metagross, and suicune. I changed both his nature and his evs around so that he is both bulkier and hits harder

    Changes: I removed Snorlax, Lucario, and Arcanine as suggested and added some suggested replacements, namely Cresselia and Chandelure along with one of my own, Metagross

    [​IMG]
    Chandelure (M) @ Ghost Gem
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Shadow Ball
    - Heat Wave
    - Protect
    - Energy Ball

    After a suggestion by chinese dood that I get a better trick room counter and other suggestions that I remove arcanine I decided to both get a new fire type and a trick room killer by adding chandelure to my team. It cannot be hit by fake out by anything but scrappy Kangaskhan and OHKOs most trick room users.

    [​IMG]
    Cresselia (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Helping Hand
    - Reflect
    - Light Screen
    - Psychic

    Cresselia is a support Pokemon I opted to add after it was suggested to me by King of Blades. She is immune to earthquake due to levitate, provides dual screen support, and also provides helping hand support to help make all my multi-poke hitting moves hit harder. She has been a great addition to the team and I would like to thank King for his excellent suggestion.

    [​IMG]
    Metagross @ Occa Berry
    Trait: Clear Body
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Bullet Punch
    - Zen Headbutt
    - Earthquake
    - Protect

    I was informed that my team had a serious Hitmontop weakness and I opted to fill it with Metagross. Metagross is able to wall every hit Hitmontop can dish out and smack him in the face with Zen Headbutt. He is a force to be feared with Tailwind hitting hard with earthquake and headbutt while still being fearsome without it due to Bullet Punch.
  2. King of Blades

    King of Blades

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2012
    Messages:
    160
    Ok, there are a few things that I would recommend replacing with this team.

    First of all, you should probably change zapdos's discharge to thunderbolt. DisQuake and other spam combos aren't as potent any more because it is common to have people running around with wide guard nowadays. Also, three of your six pokemon MUST protect on the discharge if garchomp isn't out for some reason. (Suicune, arcanine, and lucario.) Snorlax takes it like a boss and doesn't mind the paralysis, unless it prevents him from moving, and garchomp is immune, but everyone else either is weak to it or doesn't have good defenses, and they hate the paralysis as well. While this may lead you to think that earthquake should be taken off of garchomp, that is a no because he literally has no other decent option for ground STAB, unlike zapdos who is still comfy with thunderbolt.

    Unfortunately, you have a problem with fighting types, as shown by lucario and snorlax. I suggest replacing arcanine (he looks like the weakest link) with cresselia. Cresselia has the bulk to take multiple fighting attacks to the face and only 100% loses to dark pokemon. [Tyranitar, scrafty, hydreigon, and crawdaunt (lol crawdaunt) really stand out right now.] She also gives you another levitator to spam earthquake next to.
    Here is the set:

    [​IMG]
    Cresselia
    Bold | 252 HP, 252 Def, 4 Sp. Def | Leftovers
    ~Psychic
    ~Thunder Wave / Icy Wind / Reflect / Protect
    ~Light Screen
    ~Helping Hand

    Psychic is obligatory STAB, and actually gives you something to hit fighting types with. Thunder Wave is in the second slot for paralysis support. Icy Wind can be used if you want to slow them both down, and actually damage something in the process. If tailwind is enough, reflect can be used to complete the dual screens combo and protect your team from strong physical attacks. If you miss intimidate, this is a great way to protect yourself with. If this does not interest you here, protect can be used. Protect is a great move in vgc that doesn't need too much explanation, and if you feel that cresselia needs it, this is the most replaceable slot. Light Screen is in the third slot to protect against special moves, a lot of which are being thrown around in vgc 12, especially from weather teams. (Zapdos and garchomp will love you until you die for this.) It also patches up the uninvested part of cresselia's defenses. Helping hand is in the final slot for boosting other moves so you can ko important threats. (Especially good with spread moves such as garchomp's earthquake.)
    Snorlax, lucario, and suicune already prevent this team from being an unimaginative conglomeration of top 10 pokemon, so having cresselia in there is fine.

    Hope this helps, and good luck with the team!
  3. CrazySteve148

    CrazySteve148

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2012
    Messages:
    5
    thank you I definetely like your suggestion for cresselia as it does seem to fit the team perfectly and provide dual screens, which is awesome. I will try it out and see how it works for me
  4. Chinese Dood

    Chinese Dood

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,072
    I was going to give a brief comment and suggestions last night but forgot to.

    My analysis was similar to King of Blades, except I had a slightly different approach. I agree totally with Tbolt > Discharge, as well as the slight fighting weakness. However, one other potential weakness I saw was actually against rain teams.

    You have Suicune for water resistance and Zapdos to hit them hard, but vs dedicated rain teams, Zapdos won't last very long as it is hit hard by rain boosted water moves (or ice moves - but most STAB water moves will hit harder in rain), while Suicune cannot really do anything against water pokemon.

    I think replacing Lucario will be a better choice than replacing Arcanine. Yes, I know I just mentioned possible weakness against rain teams and then I said keep that fire type. The thing is that my experience with Special Luke is that it just doesn't seem to hit hard enough to OHKO, while nearly anything OHKOs it. Like, vs a rain team, I'm sure whatever water move that will KO Arcanine will also KO Lucario. Arcanine provides for a few things that Special Lucario doesn't - better bulk, better priority, Intimidate, better matchup vs Metagross (your team doesn't have much trouble against it though). Mainly it's the Intimidate and better bulk. If you do decide to keep Lucario and keeping it special though, I would recommend Modest over Timid so that it will hit a bit harder at least, to KO something before it gets KO'd.

    As for what to replace Lucario with, my initial thought was Rotom-W - one of the better rain counters out there, as well as the ground immunity for Garchomp and Snorlax to EQ. That said, I think Cresselia is fine too, since it has the bulk to survive even rain boosted moves and can Twave or Lightscreen to handle rain teams decently well. You only had a small fighting weakness to begin with, and replacing Lucario means only Snorlax is weak to fighting, so Cresselia for the fighting resist is not as necessary, but Cresselia definitely has a lot of useful moves to contribute. The choice between Cress vs Rotom-W I think is largely a matter of whether or not you want more defense (Cress) or offense (R-W).

    If you do end up dropping Lucario for Cresselia/Rotom-W but want to use that Life Orb on something else for better consistent power, I can recommend you to give Mixed Arcanine a try with Overheat replacing Flare Blitz, holding a life orb. The idea is that you can hit something very hard with Overheat, and then still stay in and Close Combat / Extremespeed pokemon at full power with life orb boost. The EV spread might be a little bit trickier though as with most mixed sets. Just an idea you might want to try out if it interests you.

    One last thing was Snorlax. It's my favorite pokemon, but it's not necessarily the best Trick Room counter pokemon due to the fact that most Trick Room teams will have a fighting type fake out pokemon (like Hitmontop / Hariyama / Scrafty), or simply a hard hitting fighting type that takes advantage of TR, like Conkeldurr. If none of those, then the Trick Room team will very likely have a hard hitting rock or steel type - which usually has fairly good physical defense - like Gigalith, Escavalier, Rhyperior, or Metagross, which Snorlax will do little damage to (as in less than 50%) even with EQ. All it takes is a Dusclops W-o-w to make Snorlax next to useless. Just want you to have those in mind. Snorlax definitely benefits from Trick Room, but I wouldn't say it counters trick room. That said, Snorlax is better off with Def EVs instead of HP because its HP and Sp Def are already really good. Usually you want to max out HP, but Snorlax is sort of an exception. It will want to have the Def EVs to survive hits from those pokemon I just mentioned - especially if you are using a relaxed nature.

    Hope a second person's opinions will get you thinking! Good luck!
  5. LPFan

    LPFan

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    317
    That's a solid team! However, I would replace charti berry with Sitrus Berry and cut Discharge for Thunderbolt. Too lazy to give a full rate right now...good luck with your team!
  6. CrazySteve148

    CrazySteve148

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2012
    Messages:
    5
    Dood were I to replace Snorlax with another pokemon, something to counter trick room as my team is focused on making my pokemon faster, what do you think i could replace it with?
  7. Drifblim

    Drifblim

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2011
    Messages:
    550
    Welcome to Smogon! Tailwind can be a good strategy, yet it is important to have Pokemon taking full advantage of it for its limited duration.

    Suicune: Do the SpAtk EVs allow you any specific kills? I would make the set bulkier, so he might live to set up a second Tailwind. If you opt for more bulk, other things would have to be changed slightly. Here is a thought:

    Suicune@Chesto Berry
    +Def/SpD nature
    252 HP/? Def&SpD/12 Spd

    Scald
    Rest
    Protect
    Tailwind

    12 Spd EVs to outrun most Cress variants wouldn't hurt much. The bulk EVs are pretty personal, depends what attacks you want to try to live.

    Arcanine: Unless the Intimidate support really means a lot for the team, there are better options. Gem Flare Blitz can damage you pretty heavily along with the opponents, use of Close Combat will also really wear you down. Chandelure would take better advantage of Tailwind by being a bit slower, but Chandelure also hits far harder. The team also has 4 physical attackers as is, which isn't good considering all the stuff that can lower Attack like Intimidate and Will O Wisp. A standard set would work fine, or take EVs out of Chandy's Speed into bulk because it won't matter under Tailwind.

    Zapdos: A great Tailwind setter. Protect could be on the moveset because its just so great, yet all the current moves are pretty important. Sitrus is more general then Charti if you are following my suggestion on Suicune, Charti doesn't help much except against TTar, and Rock SLide is a 2HKO either way.

    Garchomp: Fine, standard set. Doesn't take advantage of Tailwind well, though. Garchomp is going to be pretty fast in or out of it, moving some EVs out of Speed and into HP can make Garchomp relatively bulky.

    Snorlax: This team already doesn't like Hitmontop, more prey might not be a good idea. The Chople will allow you a hit from just about any Fighting type move, but Snorlax's mediocre coverage might keep you from hitting back too hard. Earthquake is only avoided by one Mon on your team, and super effects another two, so the partner would often have to use Protect. In this spot, something slow that can reverse Trick Room might make a better candidate.

    Lucario: Not much experience with him in Doubles, honestly. Even though he has naturally good speed, Tailwind is important as his typing gives bad weaknesses to Ground and Fire. Modest is better then Timid because Timid doesn't let you outrun much Modest doesn't, I suppose the occasional Timid Chandelure.

    Team as it is has nice synergy, most can switch out of a super effective attack quite safely. As I said, the team lacks an effective Hitmontop counter aside from Zapdos. Too many physical attackers as well, if anything there should be more Special ones because it is a harder stat to lower.
  8. Chinese Dood

    Chinese Dood

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,072
    I tend to type (a lot) more than I should... just typed like 20 paragraphs and decided to redo this from scratch and make it short and simple hah. EDIT: ... which it is not lol.

    @Crazy Steve: 4 things you can do to "counter" trick room:
    1) Put Trick Room on Cresselia to reverse Trick Room

    2) Replace Snorlax with a special attacker that also learns Trick Room (initial thought was Porygon2 if you are NOT using Lucario so as to not have doubled fighting weakness - reasons: i) it's a decent special attacker (not amazing but it can hurt stuff), ii) it has really good bulk with Eviolite, iii)it even just has enough speed to potentially take advantage of Tailwind. EDIT: Forgot to mention the most important reason... it does not double up weakness with Cresselia, which nearly all other trick roomers will.

    3) Ghost Gem Chandelure - Shadow Ball OHKOs nearly all Trick Roomers not named Porygon2 or Cresselia (and yes... Audino... lol), so this is the way to KO trick roomer before they can trick room, and Chandelure is immune to fake out (except Scrappy Kangaskhan), so opponent can't do Fake Out + trick room. I used this for my regionals team to much success, but then again that's regionals. For your team though, with Chandelure, you might want to not use Arcanine for doubled up weaknesses, but the thing is, Arcanine's main benefits is bulk and Intimidate. If I were to replace Arcanine, I'd use Hitmontop, but that would make your team more like a standard boring team with Chandelure, Hitmontop, and Cresselia.

    4) Not do anything about it. Just play around Trick Room via protect and strategic switching. With some bulk and good defensive synergy in your team (which I believe your team has), it's not too difficult to play around. In this case, probably Snorlax can just stay as is. If you want more power, you can try Double-Edge instead of Return. With that though, then I would recommend some HP EVs. Actually I would use Brave instead of Relaxed too then. It makes Double-Edge hit quite a bit harder than return.

    I do not really recommend Drifblim's Suicune set just because of my poor experience with a similar set (which I won't get into since that will be a few paragraphs long). Basically, my experience is that mono-attack suicune is going to have the bulk to set up Tailwind and then it's either going to sit around doing very little damage, or you're better off switching to another pokemon to attack while taking advantage of Tailwind. I think your current moveset is fine. Having Ice beam is really good for coverage. I used a Relaxed one with Scald/Extremespeed as attacking moves, and then I used a Calm one with Scald/Ice Beam. Scald/Ice Beam was much much better by far. I'm not sure what your EVs are for with your current spread, but if it works, then I guess it's fine.

    Just a general note on your team though... being fast can be good, but it doesn't always give you a huge advantage. In fact, being fast is only good if you can KO your opponent before it gets to move. If you aren't KOing your opponent by being faster, then your opponent will get the chance to attack you back too, which means it's actually "worse" to be faster, because by being faster you're sacrificing bulk. Of course sometimes (maybe even most of the time), a little bit more less bulk doesn't really matter because it's still 2HKO'd by the same things. But yeah, that's really my main concern for using Lucario in your team which imo faints too easily but doesn't OHKO enough. The rest of your team seems good because it has enough bulk to tank hits while dishing out reasonable amount of damage back, and most of them can take advantage of tailwind (and you have a couple pokemon that functions well even outside of tailwind, which is also essential).
  9. CrazySteve148

    CrazySteve148

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    I've implemented several of the suggested changes along with one of my own, thoughts?

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