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BW OU IR: The Art of Rain Stall

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by M Dragon, Oct 2, 2011.

  1. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
    is a Tournament Directoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 17 Champion
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    [​IMG]


    Rain stall, an underrated but very effective play style. As you know, I am a defensive player, and I enjoy playing balanced teams. This rain stall features Bulkynite in the rain, a monster that can easily wall and destroy teams, with hazards support and strong Hurricane, with Dragon Tail to weaken enemy Blissey, Jirachi and common rain Dragonite counters.

    This team has been very successful on the ladder (it peaked #1, and before ladder reset it had a ranking of 1600+), it was undefeated on World Cup and it has a 34-4 record in official tournament games. In general, it was quite funny to play with, especially because of Dragonite, a Pokémon that surprised everybody at first.


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    HOW I MADE THIS TEAM


    This section includes the most important changes of my team, since the release of Drizzle Politoed until now, and it also includes some of my greatest rain based teams.

    When the Dream World abilities were revealed, I saw 2 abilities that I knew had a lot of potential: Drought Ninetales and Drizzle Politoed. The first thing that came to mind was: Swift Swimmers. I personally thought that RD with damp rock made RD broken in DP UU, and now we had the chance to have permanent rain in OU, something swift swimmers like Kabutops or Kingdra would love. Politoed was NU in DP, but thanks to my experience in DP NU, I knew it was a decent wall that could take some hits making it a good choice for Drizzle. The second thing that popped in my head was the following Pokémon: Manaphy. In the suspect testing of DP I used a set that could destroy a stall team with ease: it consisted of Rain Dance, Calm Mind, Surf and Rest. Now the same set wouldn't need Rain Dance, as I could have permanent rain thanks do Drizzle Politoed. Plus, the set itself would even be better thanks to Tail Glow being now +3 instead of +2, making it very dangerous. All in all, I knew I had in Manaphy a sweeper immune to status, with an instant 100% recovery move, and a move to raise its Special Attack by 3 levels. And that's how the first rain team I ever made was born:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    A very successful team. It did quite well on the ladder, and K-12 won some important tourney battles with this team.
    After this, I decided to make a more defensive team. Short time after I made this one, some Dream World abilities such as Poison Heal Gliscor and Rain Dish Tentacruel, which were perfect for a more defensive version of a rain based team, were released. Early in DP, I had a hail stall featuring a Pokémon that was really annoying for the opponent with the support of Toxic Spikes: Ice Body Walrein. Gliscor with Poison Heal could do something similar with Substitute + Protect. With the help of IPL I made a non-weather based stall featuring this Gliscor, and it was nearly always the MVP of the team. After this success, I decided to add it to my rain stall team project. Obviously, this time the focus of the team would be Manaphy, and I decided to use a bulky spread with Calm Mind + Boil Over. The fourth attack at first was Ice Beam, but bulky waters made it cry. After that, I used Energy Ball, but things like Latias always beat me. After some testing, I decided to try Toxic, and it worked really well, beating CM Latias and bulky waters at the same time:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    This is probably my best BW team ever, together with the F**K MOLES team. Sadly for the team, Manaphy and SS + Drizzle were banned on Smogon, and Manaphy got banned on the PO ladder. I decided to make a team for that server, very similar to that stall. I just used Choice Specs Kingdra instead of Manaphy. Sometimes I used Ferrothorn instead of Skarmory. This team got a rating of nearly 1800 in that server, and Celebi42 with a very similar team got 1830 points:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    After the Drizzle + SS ban, rain stall pretty much died, and I didn't use rain teams again in a long time. After the Blaziken ban, I needed a new team for the last weeks of SPL, so I decided to use a rain team again. This time, the team was going to use the genies, especially Tornadus, a Pokémon I had never tried before. I tried a mixed version, with Taunt, LO and Hurricane + Hammer Arm (2HKOing bliss). NP Thundurus was as dangerous as always. I also used for the first time, bulky Dragonite on the rain (it had Sub + T-wave + DTail), because I had a non-weather stalled it with it and it really surprised me to see how it was capable of walling so many things, and it was an excellent Pokémon with Spikes support as well. Chansey was a great wall and Wish was a godsend for this team. Finally, I needed a spiker and a spinner: Forretress was the obvious answer. This was the team I used the last week vs. Pttp in a sadly famous game, winning the game:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    But Forretress wasn't doing well enough, since it wasn't a very reliable spinner, so I decided to use Ferrothorn + Tentacruel again. I also changed the Dragonite set, since now I was using Toxic Spikes, and I decided to try a more offensive set with Hurricane, which worked extremely well. Tentacruel was as good as always, and Thundurus swept so many teams with a bulkier spread, Substitute, Leftovers and Spikes support. It was awesome how easily it could sweep teams.
    Dragons and Thunders, a scary combination. This team did pretty well on the ladder, peaking #1, and it did pretty well on the last Smogon tour season:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    After the tour, and with the WC in mind, I talked with AM, and I decided to make a couple of rain stalls. The first one was going to feature the SubProtect Gliscor set, with Wish Jirachi as the special wall, and Bronzong setting up rocks. I wanted to try Gastrodon, since it was beginning to win popularity, and it worked really well with Jirachi, walling lots of special sweepers. I used this team twice on WC, with a record of 1-1. The main problem of this team was the lack of Spikes, and Haxorus:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    The other team was going to feature that bulky rain Dnite that worked really well on the dragons and thunders team. I also wanted to make a team with bulky Toxicroak, an awesome Pokémon with permanent rain which recovers lots of HP each turn thanks to its ability. As I needed a spinner, I decided to use Starmie again. I stopped using this team when LO offensive Ice Punch Toxicroak (since my Toxicroak check Dragonite) was KOed by a +2 LO IP:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Finally, I decided to make a couple of changes: I decided to use Tentacruel (again). Instead of Starmie, at first I used Gliscor, but I noticed how HP Ice Landorus weak I was (as well as some stat uppers like DDnite), so I decided to use Quagsire on that spot, since I had already used it with great success in other stall team. And that's the current line up of my team:





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    AT A GLANCE
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    [​IMG]


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    Rain! Politoed @ Leftovers
    • Drizzle
    • 248 HP | 156 Def | 64 SAtk | 40 Spd
    • Bold Nature [+ Defense, - Attack]
    • Moveset:
      • Scald - Scald is a standard on bulky Politoed, and the reason is simple. Scald is a reliable attack, that has a 30% chance of burning the opponent, which can be very useful during late game (burning Ferrothorn on the switch-in helps this team a lot, and physical sweepers will hate the burn too).
      • Toxic - Toxic is very important, because I want to toxic (on the switch), some common switch-ins to Politoed, such as Rotom-W and Latios. Toxicing Jellicent can be key, since it's maybe the best way I have of beating it (one of the greatest threats of the team if played well).
      • Protect - There are 2 reasons for using Protect: the first one is that it helps scouting what the opponent is gonna do (especially useful vs Rotom-W, so it won't Trick my Chansey). The second reason is to help Toxic stalling a certain threat.
      • Perish Song - This destroys any last Pokemon sweeper.
      .....
    • Why this Pokémon?:
      Politoed is a must on every rain team, and the reason is simple: it has Drizzle, starting the infinite rain. It also usually wins the weather war, especially with the Wish support this team has, since it can easily switch into any Hippowdon set, and it can easily beat most Tyranitar (since most Politoed are slower, I usually outspeed CBtar, something it doesn't expect, which has helped me winning some games) and Ninetales.
      .....
    • EVs & Nature:
      • 248 HP helps me take hits better.
      • 64 Sp Atk scores an OHKO on most Excadrills with Scald in the rain. Scald will also have a 75% chance of OHKOing standard Landorus and a 50% chance of OHKOing standard Gliscor.
      • 40 Spd, so I will outspeed 99% of opposing Jellicent, toxicing them before they get the chance of using Taunt on me.
      • The rest goes in Defense and a Bold nature help me take hits from Tyranitar and Hippowdon much better, and it ensures that Politoed will always survive a CB Outrage from Haxorus.
    [​IMG]


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    Sushi Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
    • Rain Dish
    • 252 HP | 212 Def | 44 Spd
    • Bold Nature [+Defense, -Attack]
    • Moveset:
      • Toxic Spikes - The first thing I do, when the team preview options is shown, is see if my opponent has any important Pokémon weak to Toxic Spikes that I want to poison (every weather changer is weak to TS, so it can help a lot in the weather war). If the answer is positive, I will always try to set up the Toxic Spikes as soon as possible. Toxic Spikes will make those threats much less durable.
      • Scald - STAB attack with a 30% chance of burning, something especially useful vs Ferrothorns, and some physical sweepers that might try to set up vs it (like DD Scrafty).
      • Protect - Read Protect on Politoed, but there is a new reason here: when I protect, Tentacruel gets a free 12.5% recovery from Black Sludge + Rain Dish, making it much more durable.
      • Rapid Spin - Bye hazards (unless they have Jellicent).
      .....
    • Why this Pokémon?:
      This Pokémon just never dies when it rains. 12.5% recovery every turn, with Wish support, with Protect... it just never dies. However, the main reason for using it is Toxic Spikes, which helps in the process of wearing down the opponent's team, and its ability to spin, which something very important in any stall team.
      .....
    • EVs & Nature:
      • 44 Spd outspeeds most versions of standard Gliscor.
      • 252 HP maximizes its ability of taking hits from both sides of the spectrum.
      • The rest goes in Defense, and a Bold nature because Tentacruel is naturally very bulky on the special side, so maximizing its ability of taking physical hits will let it take hits from any side of the spectrum really well. Fun fact: it has a 54% chance of surviving an Excadrill EQ, and a 90% chance of surviving a Landorus EQ (w/out sand)!
    [​IMG]


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    Rain Dogs Quagsire @ Leftovers
    • Unaware
    • 248 HP | 252 Def | 10 SpDef
    • Relaxed Nature [+Defense, -Speed]
    • Moveset:
      • Toxic - The easiest way of beating set-up users is usually using Toxic on them, followed by Recover in order to stall them. It also catches some Rotom-W and Latios on the switch-in.
      • Scald - Burning things like Skarmory and Forry (they like switching into Quagsire) is always very nice, but the best thing is when they switch into Ferrothorn and I burn it (yes, I am a bit paranoid about burning Ferrothorn).
      • Earthquake - Only one reason: Toxicroak.
      • Recover - Instant 50% recovery move. Any stall Pokemon loves that, especially when you are trying to toxic stall sweepers.
      .....
    • Why this Pokémon?:
      After two standard Pokémon in every rain stall (and for a good reason), a Pokémon that is not usually seen on a rain stall: the unaware Quagsire. But… why Quaggy? The team had lots of problems with things like Thundurus, Landorus (especially the Swords Dance variant), Excadrill, and some set-up users such as DDnite, Lucario or Ice Punch Toxicroak. Quagsire easily beats all of them, with its awesome ability, and it can get some nice burns with Scald. Originally I had Curse, but Toxic has helped me dealing with lots of common switch-ins, like Latios and Rotom-W.
      .....
    • EVs & Nature:
      • 248 HP EVs because I want it to take hits as well as possible.
      • 252 Def and a Relaxed nature because I want to take hits from both Excadrill and Landorus very well. I'm using physical and special attacks, and I don't care about the speed, so Relaxed is the ideal nature.
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    Old Times Dragonite @ Leftovers
    • Multiscale
    • 252 HP | 108 SpAtk | 148 SpDef
    • Calm Nature [+Special Defense, -Attack]
    • Moveset:
      • Hurricane - Its main attack. 120 BP STAB attack that may confuse, and that never misses. Should I say more? This will destroy some big threats like Celebi, Virizion (I can take a +1 HP Ice and a +2 Stone Edge even with no Multiscale) or Conkeldurr.
      • Thunder - There is only one reason for this: Jellicent. Thunder also has a good chance of paralyzing the opponent, something very useful vs most sweepers, and it also lets it beat any non IB stall breaker Mew. Using Aqua Tail over Thunder is an options (yes, even with –Atk nature), as it would KO the mole, and it would also do a nice 40% to most Tyranitar, but unluckily that would make me too Jellicent weak.
      • Roost- 50% recovery move, excellent to increase survivability.
      • Dragon Tail – The reason why this team easily destroys Baton Pass strategies (especially things like CM BP Espeon), and a really good answer vs CM Reuniclus (with Multiscale, a +1 Psychic will do less than 20%, and with +6, it will miss the 2HKO with Leftovers (56% max, I Roost, and with Leftovers I have 100% again), so I can just spam Roost, PP stalling its Psychics, and phazing it away when it decides to use Calm Mind again.
      .....
    • Why this Pokémon?:
      M Dragonite!!! The star of the team, and one of the best Pokémon I have ever used. This thing can take nearly any hit at 100% thanks to its ability, and it can completely destroy lots of Pokemon that give rain stall a lot of trouble, such as Celebi or Virizion. It just takes hits really well and hits like a truck with Hurricane, and it also phazes and/or beats 95% of the special sweepers that Chansey cannot beat (so with hazards, some possible counters like Blissey or WishJirachi are much easier to beat.
      .....
    • EVs & Nature:
      • 252 EVs HP EVs allow me to take physical and special hits better
      • 148 Sp Def EVs and a Calm nature let me outstall a +6 Reuniclus using Psychic, and it gives me a lot of special bulk, so I can even take Choice Specs Draco Meteors from Latios (with Multiscale), and a CM Latias's +2 Dragon Pulse will miss the 2HKO (with Multiscale too).
      • The rest goes into Sp Atk, because I want to hit a bit hard with my Hurricane.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    JoyToy Chansey @ Eviolite
    • Natural Cure
    • 240 HP | 252 Def | 16 SpDef
    • Bold Nature [+Defense, -Attack]
    • Moveset:
      • Toxic - Useful for toxicing some threats like CM Virizion, NP Thundurus, and other powerful threats, so that beating them becomes a much easier task.
      • Seismic Toss – Consistent 100 HP damage.
      • Softboiled – 50% recovery move.
      • Wish – With Chansey huge HP, a Wish will nearly completely heal every Pokémon of this team. Usually, when I'm using Chansey, the first thing I will do is Wish. This lets me scout what's my opponent's plan against Chansey, allowing me to act accordingly, and thanks to Wish the Pokemon that I send after will heal completely after taking the attack.
      .....
    • Why this Pokémon?:
      The first thing you might ask is: Why Chansey and not Blissey? There is 1 reason for using Blissey over Chansey, and the reason is Leftovers, which could be annoying otherwise when facing a sand team (losing 6% every turn is not good). This team will keep the weather advantage most of the time, so it won't be too problematic, and Chansey is much bulkier than Blissey. It takes physical attacks as well as Swampert (a MixMence Outrage misses the 2HKO!).

      The reason for using Chansey on this team is to stop most special threats. The Dnite + Chansey combo can stop 90% of the special threats pretty well, and the rest is stopped by Quagsire. It is also one of the reasons of this team's success, because of the move Wish and its ability to nearly completely heal any member of the team (very useful especially with Politoed). Healing my team members while the opponent's team slowly dies to hazards is great too.
      .....
    • EVs & Nature:
      • 252 Def and a Bold nature because Chansey has a low Defense stat, and it needs to be as concentrated as possible in order to take physical hits better.
      • 240 HP also helps me take special hits pretty well, while taking physical hits as well as possible.
      • The rest goes in Special Defense. I may invest more Sp.Def so that I can take hits from things like Choice Specs Rotom-W more easily.
    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]

    BS Ferrothorn @ Rocky Helmet
    • Iron Barbs
    • 252 HP | 88 Def | 168 SpDef
    • Relaxed Nature [+Defense, -Speed]
    • Moveset:
      • Stealth Rock - Stealth Rock has a huge importance, letting me wear off the opponent's team, and for hurting dangerous Pokemon such as Thundurus, Tornadus and Dragonite, limiting the number of times they can switch in.
      • Spikes - More hazards. A huge help vs non-Levitate / Flying-type Pokemon.
      • Gyro Ball - Helps me beat Dragon-types and some fast threats such as Gengar. Remember, it needs 0 speed IVs in order to do its job more effectively.
      • Power Whip – Beats bulky waters, and it's better vs slower Pokemon.
      .....
    • Why this Pokémon?:
      You may have noticed that something was missing on this stall team. I had no hazards. There were two options for this slot: Skarmory and Ferrothorn. I decided to use the latter because of two reasons: its ability + Rocky Helmet does a nice 25% damage when it takes any physical attack, which includes Rapid Spin (so it can act as a pseudo rapid spinner), Outrage (extremely useful vs Dragon-types locked into it) or U-Turn (a U-turn user switches into Chansey as I wish). Then I might send Ferrothorn, so the U-turner will have taken the hazards damage + an extra 25% damage. With SR and a layer of Spikes in the field, it means that the U-turner has lost a 50% of its health, which is extremely helpful. The second reason is its Grass typing, and how it helps against some bulky Water-types that might annoy my team.
      The main objective of Ferrothorn is to set up entry hazards. The team in general (and especially Dragonite), will love this kind of support, and it will help me a lot when facing Dragon-type Pokemon. As you may have noticed, the rest of my team has some problems with Dragon-types running a Choice Band. Against Dragon-types + Magnezone teams, I will usually lead with Politoed. I will Toxic their CB Dragon-type, use Protect for extra poison damage and sacrifice Politoed. After that, this Dragon will be locked into Outrage, so I can send Ferrothorn and set up Stealth Rock or kill it with Gyro Ball depending on the rest of my opponent's team.
      .....
    • EVs & Nature:
      • 252 HP EVs so I can take hits better (yes, I said this 6 times).
      • 88 Def Evs and a Relaxed nature give me balanced defenses, while taking physical hits (Outrage, etc) a bit better. Gyro Ball wants absolutely min speed, and that's the reason of why I picked a Relaxed nature (don't forget giving it 0 Spd EVs!).
      • The rest goes in Special Defense because I want Ferrothorn to be able to sponge special attacks too.
    [​IMG]



    Importable (keep the names if you are going to use the team!) (open)
    Rain! (Politoed) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 152 Def / 64 SAtk / 40 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Toxic
    - Protect
    - Perish Song

    Rain Dogs (Quagsire) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Unaware
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Recover
    - Scald
    - Earthquake
    - Toxic

    Old Times (Dragonite) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 252 HP / 108 SAtk / 148 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Hurricane
    - Thunder
    - Dragon Tail
    - Roost

    Joy Toy (Chansey) (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Toxic
    - Seismic Toss
    - Softboiled
    - Wish

    Sushi (Tentacruel) (M) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Scald
    - Rapid Spin
    - Protect

    BS (Ferrothorn) (F) @ Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SDef
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Spikes
    - Stealth Rock
    - Gyro Ball
    - Power Whip

    Thnx Fatecrashers for the awesome pics!
  2. HBK

    HBK

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    Superb team bro.Not much i can suggest as you have obviously perfected this strategy.Maybe a Chesto rest or Toxic + Refresh set over your current Toed?
  3. BKC

    BKC
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    As with all rain stall teams, Nasty Plot Celebi is a huge threat. Your two counters are Dragonite and Chansey; the former needs to be above 60% to avoid a KO from +2 Psychic, and the SR weakness could very well be its downfall. Chansey is incredibly Trick prone, especially since it's your main counter to one of the most common Trickers, Rotom-W [I wouldn't rely on Ferrothorn for that since it's your hazard setter and it doesn't have recovery - Will-O-Wisp / rain-boosted Hydro Pumps will hurt], and even if Chans doesn't have its Eviolite taken, Toxic only temporarily delays Celebi's sweep because of Natural Cure. My suggestion is to try a CM + Roar Latias. It gives you a great counter to Celebi, makes facing Reuniclus alot easier, and stomps the hell out of anything Rotom-W can do; if it Tricks, then congratulations, you've got a Specs / Scarf Latias. I would run it over Chansey because you've got so many great special walls already - the only thing I really see Chansey doing for you is passing Wishes. You can't pass to Ferrothorn because they share a fighting weakness; Dragonite / Quagsire don't need it since they have instant recovery; Tentacruel doesn't need it either because it has Protect in tandem with 12% recovery each turn. The only member who will really miss the large Wishes is Politoed, but imo Leftovers + Protect is enough to keep it alive throughout the weather war; if you really feel the need to bump up its longevity, though, try running Rest + Chesto Berry. If you really think Wish support is necessary for the team to function, you can even run it on Latias.

    Latias @ Leftovers | Timid | 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Calm Mind | Roar | Dragon Pulse | Recover / Wish

    Just something to consider, great team and congrats on #1.
  4. franky

    franky
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    hi,

    i sat around my computer looking for an actual flaw, but only found one to be honest. this team is the best rain stall team i've read out of all the rain tall steams and its built so precise to handle a majority of the threats. not a rate per se, but i do believe your only weakness is sd virizon: a single swords dance with stone edge deals 91.71% - 108.29% on dragonite (take note this is lefties). with stealth rock down, you get swept really easily. it can set up on a majority of your pokemon. i don't really want to suggest a pokemon because it will change the entire outlook of your team and i don't want to do that. i guess its just that 'one threat' you can't beat, but i'll suggest optional things like t-wave > toxic or wish chansey. it helps prevent an easy set up from virizon (and you can survive cc or focus blast). with virizon paralysed, you can beat it with dragonite now. overall gl! this team is nearly flawless. (y)
  5. RhyssaFireheart

    RhyssaFireheart

    Joined:
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    Salamence and Latias core can take this team out easily but the team is very solid and the synergy will take care of it.

    Some spelling mistakes you have PS on Politoed when it is suppose to be HP.
    This team is probably the one of the best Rain stall, so great job on that.
    Lead Nasty Plot Celebi can set up on you that OHKO your team that is if Celebi has HP ice to take out Dragonite, Virizon can walk all over you and can cause major problems.
    How are you gonna take care of Landorus? Without nobody running Ice attacks, also every Landorus set really weakens your team's potential.
  6. august

    august get a grip mothafucka
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnuswon the 5th Official Smogon Tournamentis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

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    I love this team x)

    The only real flaw this team has (from experience) is the lack of a heal beller, as getting burns/toxics on quagsire really dampens his ability to wall things like balloon terrakion/exca. For this reason alone, I use heal bell chansey. however, that makes ferro much less efficient at both walling and spiking so i guess you kinda have to pick your poison!

    luvdisc'd :toast:

    Chansey beats np celebi ?_? and quagsire + politoed take care of every landorus aside from cb which is beaten by ferro/dragonite combination. lol..

    also where are the nicknames x( rain dogs is the best nickname ever
  7. RhyssaFireheart

    RhyssaFireheart

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    Sorry bad Rates i was just to fascinated in the team but nice core and synergy and the team is very well built.lol
  8. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    Thnx for the rates!

    @HBK: Yeah, I have considered Refresh Poli before, but its 4 moves are too important...

    @BKC: In my experience, dnite + chans are enough to wall any NP celebi, and if it has psychic, it won't have Recover most of the times, so its easier to beat (TS help a lot too here). Latias could work well, but then i cant wall things like Mixmence (thats the main issue I have with Latias > Chans)

    @Emeral: Yeah, that was a mistake xd.

    @f: Yes, that's the main problem of the team. When I see Viri, I usually try to keep dnite safe, and toxicing it in sight (then, I can just stall it). I have always managed to kill it doing that. Also Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn helps a lot here. CM is less problematic because chans won't be 2HKOed by a +1 Focus Blast, and Dnite survives easily the +1 HP ice.

    @Stunt: Mew is the other problematic mon, especially with heal bell, but i can still beat it with tenta (if it has IB), or with Dnite (if it has Psychic). Also, when I see Mew, the first thing I try is setting up the Toxic Spikes, so it gets more difficuly for Mew.

    @August: You can't have everything I guess. I prefer Wish though, but Heal Bell is also great for the reasons u said.
  9. New World Order

    New World Order Licks Toads
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    Nice Read. I never got the chance to play much Drizzle+Swift Swim :( so it was pretty interesting seeing how Drizzle has evolved.

    As most people have pointed out, the flaws of this team are few and far between. Very solid team synergy, it seems you have a gameplan to almost everything. There is one pokemon, however, that played correctly, can shred this team apart: Terrakion. At +2 it can destroy everyone on the team except Quagsire. But if the opponent predicts a Quagsire switchin, he can just Close Combat turn 1, ending Quagsire's ability to wall it right there. The next time Terrakion gets to +2, Quagsire will be at too low HP to even wall it at +0.

    Now I shall commit Blasphemy: Replace Chansey with physically defensive Vaporeon. This allows you to keep your Wish support. Although Vaporeon will not heal nearly as much, it'll help you with the Terrakion problem. 8 Speed EVs allow it to outspeed standard Jellicent and Toxic it before it Taunts you. There is also the option of running 16 Speed EVs to beat speed creep Jellicents. Vaporeon doesn't need those 8 SpD EVs anyways. The rest is pumped into defense to give it an easier time taking Terrakion's blows, and return fire with Scald. You're clearly better at EVing than me anyways, so uhh... go for it. Hydration+Rest allows you to heal yourself over and over again, it basically functions the same way as Chansey's Wish+Softboiled combo, except better. You don't give a shit about status and can just rest off Jellifag's status damage. Chansey's role of taking special attacks is already fulfilled by Ferrothorn, who destroys the Latii twins in the rain, and Dragonite, who covers basically every other special threat, so you wont miss it.

    Show Hide

    Vaporeon @ Leftovers
    Hydration
    Bold
    248 Hp/ 244 Def/ 16 Spe
    Scald
    Toxic
    Wish
    Rest


    Now that Jellicent and Terrakion have been addressed without opening any real holes. You now have the freedom to switch up a couple of sets. Politoed no longer needs to invest speed just so it doesn't get beaten by a Pringles look alike. Instead, you can pump some into SpA for a more sure chance of taking out Landorus, and the rest into Defense so you can better take hits. I have no clue how to actually EV it to accomplish it though, so I guess I'll leave that part to you.

    Dragonite now no longer needs to carry Thunder either. You can now carry Waterfall to screw around with Heatran and Tyranitar. Or you can use Substitute. Now before people say "you're a fucking retard, Substitute ruins Multi Scale", keep in mind how badly Dragonite gets screwed over by Toxic and Will-o-Wisp. Plus the lack of a cleric, means Dragonite is going to lose Multi Scale anyways. SubRoost lets you laugh as Toxic damage racks up.

    Oh, one last thing. How do you EV your pokes so perfectly? Do you literally take a damage calculator and plug in values until you get the perfect EV spread, or is there a way that doesn't take 5 centuries?

    EDIT: Why can't I luvdisc?
  10. San_Pellegrino

    San_Pellegrino the eternal dreamer
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    M Dragon...

    You have made a phenomenally solid team here, carefully thought out and covered much of the metagame. Something you can consider is using Thunder Wave on Chansey over Toxic, because not only do you have TSpikes, but 2 additional Toxic users, both of which cover different switch-ins. Chansey will often be switching into strong special attackers and have strong physical attackers switched into it, so against a heavy offensive team, having a little paralysis support can be exceedingly more beneficial than a toxic'ed mon, in cases like Virizion, which is a threat franky mentioned. this can also help with strong physical attacking switchins to chansey, who can eventually overpower your walls. Although you would be running the risk of paralyzing something you need poisoned, it would make it a lot easier to play against strong grass types like Celebi or Virizion.

    Additionally, Ferrothorn could run 60 Def EVs to avoid being 2HKO'ed by CB Haxorus Earthquake after hazards damage, since a late game Haxorus can outspeed your whole team and trample it. Politoed's EVs can take an Outrage at full health, but Ferrothorn is a more decent check.

    Also your nature on dragonite should be calm not careful

    Amazing team man congrats.
  11. Stunt

    Stunt

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    :( somehow me and blarajan were making a team and it turned out exactly the same except for 1 poke; we had mew over Chansey. The sets are mostly the same, except we had thunderwave over thunder on Dragonite and Leech seed over spikes on ferrothorn.

    Since I've used this similar team for awhile, I've noticed that it was weak to Sandstorm as a strategy and U-turn Volt Switch with hazards. Quagsire would often have to take more physical hits than it could muster, and critical hits (mostly from Lando) were often an issue. Once again, I have no solution to this as this is just an observation.
  12. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    @NWO: Fortunately Quaggy can take 2 CCs from Terrakion. My main issue with Vappy instead of Chans is that that would make me too Rotom-W weak. However, I have liked that vappy set a lot, and I might use it in some other rain stall xd (unfortunately, it doesnt seem to fit here)

    @San Pellegrino: Yes, I will change Ferrothorn EVs. Im not sure about t-wave Chans though, since toxicing those threats is usually better than paralyzing them (being maybe SD viri the exception, but I can easily play around a toxiced one)

    @Stunt: Just spin the hazards! Most u-turns teams dont use a spin blocker, so spinning the hazards is easy, and I can stop most u-turners with Tenta + Dnite, and my hazards will slowly beat them. I havent had problems with SS (in fact, this team nearly always beats the standard SS teams, since Poli will usually keep the weather advantage). And yeah, this team is weak to CHs, like every stall team (nothing can be done about that)

    Thnx for the rates!
  13. Blue_Star

    Blue_Star
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    This is, possibly, the best BW OU RMT ever posted. Well, not much to say here, but I think you can use Leech Seed > Stealth Rock on Ferrothorn and use Stealth Rock > Wish on Chansey. Wish isn't really needed now because, if you do those changes, Tentacruel has Protect + Rain Dish, Ferrothorn has Leech Seed, Quag has Recover, Dragonite has Roost and Chansey has Softboiled.

    [​IMG]
  14. extremebeta

    extremebeta

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    just a nickpick
    careful nature on dragonite is -sp atk not -atk
    so u might wanna change that to calm
    and the EVs on ferrothorn
    212+252+48 = 512
    so u might wanna change that to 252hp, 48 defense, 208 sp defense
  15. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    I fixed the first thing (it was calm nature).
    Im fixing the second thing though
    thnx!

    Also NWO, I already explained how I made the EVs
  16. Razza

    Razza

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    I think that yawn could be quite cool on Quagsire. As generally when people realise teir scrafty is walled they will switch out to something that threatens Quagsire, only to be forced to switch by yawn racking up more hazards damage and taking away their momentum.
  17. New World Order

    New World Order Licks Toads
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    Oh lol, I know what the EVs are for, I just wanted to know how to come up with the EV spreads in the first place since any set I make is a 252/ 252/ 4 spread. Do you just plug values into a damage calculator until you get an EV spread that works, or is there an easier way?
  18. extremebeta

    extremebeta

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    Lol, ur ferrothorn's evs
    252+60+192=504
    u got 4 more evs!
  19. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    Oh, I just think what I want to KO or survive, etc, and I use the EVs for that. X-act def EVs applet is quite useful for that too.
  20. New World Order

    New World Order Licks Toads
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    Thank you. byebye 252/252/4 :)
  21. MCRandom

    MCRandom

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    I would honestly recommend Protect > Softboiled on Chansey. It may just come down to personal preference but I feel that being able to scout what move the Choice pokemon such as Scizor and Tyranitar are going to use when they switch into Chansey is a huge bonus. Also, it fits with the general Toxic Stalling theme of the team, and just racks up that much more toxic damage (while still being a 50% recovery move for all intents and purposes when used in tandem with wish)
  22. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    Awesome team. I have been laddering a bit with this team and I can tell that Para-Shuffler Dragonite is a pain in the ass for this team. What I did is putting Ice Beam over Toxic on Politoed. You have enough Toxic users and Toxic Spikes, so that's not needed in my opinion. You're also missing 4 EVs on Ferrothorn; you meant 196 SpD and not 192. EDIT: Oh yeah, like Blue Star said, use Stealth Rock over Wish on Chansey and give Ferrothorn Leech Seed over SR. This will increase Ferrothorn's survivability and viability on the field.


    Superb team bro, well done!
  23. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    The problem with Wish + Protect is that I will miss the 1 turn recovery of Softboiled (so a sweeper cannot take advantage of the protect turn). It's an alternative though.

    About that dnite set, I have never had problems with it, since most of my team has recovery, I can send Wishes, and I have a spinner that can get rid of hazards (unless Jellicent), and I would miss Toxic on Poli. SR Chans and Leech Ferrothorn is an option that I have used on other rain stalls, and it has worked quite well. The reason why Im not doing that is Wish. I wanted wish to completely heal Poli, Tenta and Ferrothorn, which helps vs Sand based teams and vs teams with u-turners (I wish, they send the u-turner, I send dnite/tenta/ferrothorn and they are completely healed. I have used a version of this team with SR chans and leech Ferro though, and it worked well.

    Thnx for the rates!

    Also I added an importable, and I might add son a small threat list with the most common strategies
  24. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the Astronaut's pet dog >:3
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    Awesome team, M_Dragon! I've faced you a couple of times, and that Dragonite is really the MVP. It patches up so many threats. Most of all, it provides phazing, which many Rain Stall team lacks, preventing your team from becoming set-up bait / bp-bait.

    Congrats to your well-earned success!
  25. Rurushu

    Rurushu Sleepless Strategist

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    With 100 HP / 252 def / 156 Sdef your Chansey will never be 2HKOed by a +2 Thundurus Focus Blast if you manage to keep her at full health and without Stealth Rock. Obviously this is highly situational but it's something that Blissey could only achieve with Calm max Sdef (factoring leftovers) and you mentioned that you thought about giving her more special defense so i think this is a good number to aim for.

    I'd also consider using 48 Def EVs in your dragonite, enough to never be OHKOed by opposing Banded (or +1) Dragonites, something that can be useful in a pinch or when you're not willing to risk Quagsire/Ferrothorn. Thunder Wave over Thunder also deserves a mention because Dragonite is one of your anti sun measures and i don't see Jellicent being such a big deal since you can still beat him with one or two smart dragon tails + hazards.

    Anyway, great team with no room for real improvements since i can't see something being replaced without changing the whole team.

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