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BW OU IR: The Art of Rain Stall

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by M Dragon, Oct 2, 2011.

  1. Haunter

    Haunter 100% avocado
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    While I dislike stall as a playstyle I have to say that I'm glad that you made this team as it proves that even into such an offensive metagame, defensive strategies are perfectly viable.

    Other than SD Virizion, which, indeed, could be troublesome for this team, I see a pretty huge weakness to the Magnezone+CB Haxorus\Dragonite combo. Sub-charge Zone can easily set up on Ferro e proceed to kill at least two members of your team, opening the door for a Haxorus\Dnite sweep. Looking at your team, I believe that you could easily replace power whip with bulldoze on your Ferro. You don't really have troubles with bulky waters since Politoed, Quag and even Dnite can deal with them or force them out and this change would only make you slightly weaker to Gyarados.

    Great team, not much else to say.
  2. SoT

    SoT Yes please!
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    After pretty much going on a ladder run with this team relatively easily, the only changes aren't even changes just more based off personal play style. I used refresh on toed, and sub on dragonite. both seemed to come in handy on occasion, but other times i wish i had the current teams moves. overall fantastic team m dragon, congrats on the success it brought you and looking forward to seeing you post another dominating team.
  3. Raikiri

    Raikiri

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    I guess everyone has forgot about the best counter against stall itself. The one and only SubCM Jirachi can set up on...basically everything on your team, boost up and sweep. Not too long ago, I built a team around this guy just because he sets up on pokes like Ferrothorn and Jellicent too easily. So I know what I'm talking about when I say he is the biggest threat to your team. Quagsire is your best option of dealing with him. However, Jirachi can sub on Blissey, Dragonite, Ferrothorn, and Tentacruel. So you are either forced to try and beat down the subs with a couple of moves, allowing Jirachi to boost up even more. Or you can switch directly to Quagsire who gets 3HKO by Psychic while they have a sub already up. Even if you manage to get a hit in, Earthquake will only be doing 46.78% - 55.69%. And if plan on Recover stalling, you will most likely get SDef drops.
    The best counters for this Jirachi don't really function well on rain teams besides Scizor, but that is out of place on a stall team. Unless you make Quagsire SDef bulky I really don't know what else you could do about it. If you do that, then your team is more weak to the likes of Excadrill or Landorus. Maybe SDef Quasire w/ Encore+Skarmory can fix this problem all together. Even though this set isn't too popular it's still a huge threat that shouldn't be ignored. Other than that, this team is very solid IMO.
  4. HR.

    HR.

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    Yeah, just posting to say that imo, this is the first BW OU team I've seen that honestly can't get any better. If you are a skilled player, then you will win with this team. There are some move choices that could be changed, but I feel as if you could argue for every single move you have chosen and every ev you have distributed.

    With that being said, a minor nitpick I would consider is using leftovers over black sludge on tentacruel. A smart player can take advantage of tricking black sludge back to one of your pokes that wouldn't enjoy it. Unless you have a reason for using black sludge > leftovers that I'm not catching. Also, you have a generally slow team, and I think putting thunder wave on at least one of dragonite, ferrothorn, or blissey would be beneficial for you, replacing thunder, gyro ball, or toxic, respectively.

    Other than that, great team, I've already started to play it every other time I'm on the ladder lol.
  5. Box

    Box

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    A quick Perish Song from Politoed and this set is no problem because Jirachi is walled by Ferrothorn. Hardly a huge threat especially since people mostly use SubCM as a late game sweeper.

    Regardless, someone should do the calcs on +1/2 Thunderbolt vs Ferrothorn, because that's as far as Jirachi is going to get.
  6. Raikiri

    Raikiri

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    Ummm at +1 Thunderbolt does 54.21% - 64.21% to Politoed. So he can only come in and do this once. And Power Whip/Gyro Ball takes two hits to brake Jirachi's subs. In between that, Jirachi can just boost up or hit back with STAB Psychic. Leftovers recovers most of the health lost by the time he would brake the sub, so Jirachi isn't walled at all. I would know because I have set up on Ferrothorn many many times.
  7. PasY_G

    PasY_G

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    your importable quagsire is bold :o
  8. 6A9 Ace Matador

    6A9 Ace Matador veni, vidi, vici, VERSACE, VERSACE VERSACE

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    nice team m dragon, i think 248 hp on politoed makes him more defensive though!

    acceptin full responsibility for rain dogs nickname 2
  9. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    @Rurushu: Thnx! I will try those Chansey EVs.

    @Haunter: In paper, I'm weak to that strategy, but with some smart play, I can set up rocks and kill the dragon before magnezone has the chance of trapping ferrothorn.

    @SoT: What did u drop on poli? Also, about Sub or Thunder dnite, it's "pick your poison". With Thunder, you might miss the ability of blocking status from Jelli and friends, but without Thunder you will miss the ability of destroying Skarm and monst bulky waters (Gyara is also an important Thunder objective, since Thunder will hit even if they clicked Bounce!)

    @Raikiri: Politoed + Chansey are usually enough vs any CM Jirachi. If they have Psychic, I can weaken it with everything on my team (scald from waters, thunder for dnite will break the sub with no cms), Quag isnt 2HKOed (and I think its not even 3HKOed), and it doesnt do too much damage to chansey (it will do like 36% with +6). It won't get +6 though. Psyshocks versions are stopped easily by Quaq.

    @HR: The reason of black sludge is that it can help weakening things like choice Rotom or choice Latios faster after they try yo trick (ideally when they are weakened etc), and I think it doesnt hurt ferrothorn, and Ferry it's a safe switching vs both of them, so thats the reason of Black Sludge. And yeah, the team is slow. Thunder 30% para chance helps here a lot vs some threats though.

    @Sirndpt: Yeah, Jirachi could be useful, but the reason Im not sure about that chance is Rotom-W, especially the versions with WoW. About Heal Bell, it's personal preference. Both Wish and Heal Bell works really well. August prefer Heal Bell, for example. Also, I'm posting it now because I have used rain stall for a long time, and I wanted to retire this team, now, at the end of the round.

    @Pasy_G: That explains why EQ wasnt doing the damage I expected sometimes...

    @Am: Fixed thnx!

    Thnx for the rates!
  10. Eggbert

    Eggbert

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    Wow did you really have the wrong natures the whole time?

    Anyways the only really common problem this team has is Jellicent. If it switches in on 1 layer of t-spikes as not to be fully poisoned it be really be bad news for this team. It also stops Tenta from spinning easily which can really put you at a disadvantage against other stall teams that have Jellicent as their spinner. I don't see it costing you every game but things like Politoed and Ferrothorn who don't have the completely reliable recovery could be in trouble. Really not much to change, but you might want to consider running something like Wish Jirachi with Thunder and maybe calm mind to really give you an advantage against those teams since Quag counters other Jirachi. It might also help against Virizion and Reuniclus alot if you run psyshock. It could run a calm nature and wish to still do the things Chansey did.

    Also, just curious, where does the name IR come from?
  11. That Noob

    That Noob

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    well to be fair that's why D-nite runs thunder
  12. Kevin Garrett

    Kevin Garrett is a competitor
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    I think this team is fantastic. I like how Dragonite makes this team more dynamic defensively. My rain stall team is just like this but with Tangrowth. Both have their pros and cons, but overall your version covers every day threats a little bit more. Well done M Dragon.
  13. Dezza Laa

    Dezza Laa

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    Your team is very weak to CB Terrakion, lacking a safe switchin or even anything to outspeed it meaning almost everytime someone is going down. I can't really suggest anything that wouldn't completely screw over the rest of your team, but yeah good team nonetheless.
  14. ssbbm

    ssbbm

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    Well, although it seems weak to CB Terrakion on paper, I think it would be manageable simply because of Tentacruel + Quagsire - Terrakion isn't OHKOing Tentacruel - Jolly CB does 71.2% - 83.8% with SE to Tentacruel, meaning that you are left with 36% on average and then Protecting the next turn leaves you with 48%, meaning that you are able to switch to Quagsire on the Stone Edge and then later heal Tentacruel with either Protect or Wish.

    Secondly, the sheer amount of Pokemon with Protect on this team means that CB Terrakion (which is the most dangerous variant of Terrakion for this team to handle) can only damage the team if it comes in safely on Dragonite, Quagsire, or Ferrothorn; otherwise, its move will be predicted and easily switched into.

    Dragonite using Roost would be the easiest to switch into (Quaggy and Ferro both can OHKO Terrakion), but even then, Dragonite has a chance to beat CB Terrakion one on one - it's forced to use SE to win, and Dragonite can take one SE (assuming full health) and use Hurricane, weakening Terrakion immensely, before switching to Quaggy.

    tl;dr - Terrakion is killing one Pokemon at most, although the most likely scenario is that M Dragon is forced to let a Pokemon be weakened to ~30%.

    EDIT:
  15. Gideon

    Gideon

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    Your team looks like it gets destroyed by any form of Terrakion. CB Close combat can cause problems as it 2hko's everything on your team. LO Terrakion does about 60% to quaggy which is all you have to stop it from ripping through your team.

    509 Atk vs 295 Def & 394 HP (120 Base Power): 222 - 262 (56.35% - 66.50%)

    The only thing I can say is to maybe scarf your politoed to be able to revenge it, but that's all I got for now. I'll try to think of something later.

    Great team, though. Unusual playstyles (such as Rain Stall) are always fun to watch. Great RMT!
  16. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    Terrakion might be problematic in paper, but with TS + Quaggy + Tenta + Dnite I can beat it.
    SD LO terrakion dies quickly and it only can set up on Chansey, and I can Wish in the turn it comes in and send Tenta or Quagsire (also works with CB versions).

    Basically TS, and the fact that it only can set up on Chans (and I can Wish to Quag/Tenta) is enough for beating it
  17. Dezza Laa

    Dezza Laa

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    I guess, but I sampled this team and found great difficulty on with the TTar + Terrakion combo. The fact is if TTar immediately puts down SR while you Scald and can get in Terrakion safely all whilst Sand and SR are up you have great trouble since Tentacruel is clean 2HKOed iirc(and you can't abuse Rain Dish), Dragonite loses Multiscale and I remember Quaggy took 70%~. But I guess I don't play your team the way you do (guessing you get TS down really early game).
  18. shrang

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    Okay, I played a few people using this team, and it is alarming on how utterly Ground-weak it is. You have absolutely nothing that can switch into Life Orb boosted Earthquakes with Stealth Rock up. I played blarajan using this team, and after Mamoswine came in, Earthquake 2HKOed everything on the team (Quagsire went down with >5% damage beforehand, and I'm using JOLLY Mamoswine, mind you). Excadrill outspeeds your entire team even in the rain, and can easily set up on stuff like Chansey and OHKOes everything not named Quagsire, who needs to be >70% to be safe. I'd suggest replacing Quagsire with Scarf Rotom-W, who has a nice Ground immunity and can act as a pretty good revenge killer in the rain.

    Rotom-W @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Nature: Modest / Timid
    - Hydro Pump
    - Volt Switch
    - Hidden Power Ice / Thunder
    - Trick
  19. HBK

    HBK The Main Event
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    Nope.I played Smurf. when he was using your team and everything on your team got 2HKO'ed by CBterrakion including Nite who got 2HKO'ed by CC after SR.Tenta got 2HKO'ed but survived due to recovering some health through protect.I easily dealt with it by switching Tyranitar on a predicted Protect and Pursuiting it to hell.From there on Terrakion had an easy sweep.Agreeing with shrang about replacing Quagsire with Rotom-W.Be careful not to trick your scarf when facing LO/Bandterrakion.Good luck!
  20. Milanor

    Milanor

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    Nice team M Dragon, but I think Ferrothorn is a big pain for your team, you haven't got a good check for it, and Ferrocent is a very used combination in the actual metagame.

    As they say, Terrakion with SR support 2HKOs your entire team and you must sacrifice, but he can switch out and switch in and do a 6-0, and more easily if your opponent put Sandstorm, because Politoed can't switch in Terrakion.

    You can put Skarmory taunt instead of Ferrothorn for your CB Terrakion and Ferrothorn problem.

    Anyway, it is a very good team. Congratulations.
  21. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    @Shrang: Chansey, Quagsire and Ferrothorn can take 2 LO EQs from Mamoswine. About the rotom suggestion, it might work (especially with wish support), but some set uppers like Dnite or Toxi would be too problematic. Mamo is a problem for most non Bronzong/Skarm rain stalls though.

    @HBK: Tenta will beat CBtar unless it gets unlucky (it will get burned, and tenta has several attempts before dying). Just protect. If it pursuits, then Scald, if not, go to a counter. As I said, CBkion is an annoying pokemon that requires prediction, or it will beat you), and thats true for most stalls (gliscor has a 12.5% chance of being OHKOed by a CB SE with rocks!). With scarf rotom I could revenge kill it, but then Im weak to other common threats, and terrakion could just switch out and I would lose my main rock resist. I'm strongly considering Sr bliss and leech + protect ferrothorn, so I can deal better with Mamo, I can protect vs CBkion, so it would only be a problem if it switches into Chans, and it wont like a ST (especially if there are TS). The problem is that I would lose Wish (or Toxic), and both are quite important attacks for Chans

    @Milanor: Ferrothorn is actually easy to beat. Chances are that Tentacruel wilp burn Ferrothorn (50%+ chance with 2 scalds, and I can use Ferrothorn in a predicted PW for a -25%. Ferrothorn will be burned most of the times by Scald, and a birned Ferrothorn will never beat Tentacruel.
    About the skarm suggestion, I already explained the Ferro vs Skarm in the OP. I have some variants of this team with skarm though.
  22. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
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    I adore that Dragonite set, I really do. Was wondering if you could go into a bit more detail on why you've opted for Calm over Sassy though? I understand Dragon Tail's primary purpose is not to do damage, but the drop from 304 Atk to 273 Atk is very noticeable. I suppose outrunning most Choice Band Tyranitar and Politoed is justification enough but I'd be interested to hear any additional notes on that set.

    ty M Dragon, great team and ilu.
  23. ToF

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    its ironic that most rain stall teams are weak to excadrill of all things, and this team isn't any different. I would hardly call quagsire the best "counter", considering one crit and you're over. There's nothing you can really do to fix this other than hope for the best lol. It seems like this team is weak to the standard stall team with jellicent as a spin blocker + excadrill. If all hazards are up and excadrill comes in, its good game for this team, provided the excadrill user EQ's first.

    just some thoughts, otherwise this is one of the most well-crafted teams i've seen in a long time.
  24. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    @Lee: With Sassy I don't outspeed Taunt Jellicent. That´s the main reason (and as you said, Dtail primary purpose isn't doing damage.
    Actually, the EV spread is pretty mindless (252 HP, enough sp def for beating +6 Reuniclus, rest in sp atk), and I'm sure there are better options.
    And yes, Dragonite is great.

    @ToF: Well, if some set upper CHs my Quagsire, chances are that I lose though. And yes, Taunt Jellicent is annoying.
  25. VN.

    VN. im african and you know i got hyenus
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    Scarf Politoed might help a bit, albeit Bulky Toed can come in helpful at times. ScarfToed is able to revenge kill many of the weaknesses that others have said you this team has, such as Excadrill and Terrakion, or at the very least, force them out. Either way, this is a really great and unique team, nice job with it.

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