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Discussion in 'Pokémon Policy' started by X-Act, Jun 13, 2008.
garchomp is the new abortion
all we need is deck knight
One thing does prevent me from saying garchomp being Uber: 4x weak to ice and presence of ice shard. Hello weavile.
As for me, this is what I think
Is Wobbuffet uber or not? Uber. I agree with Tangerine's position on this.
Is Garchomp uber or not? Uber.
With Garchomp usage rising every month, people seem to be realizing what kind of a force Garchomp is in the game. I love Garchomp and I use it on pretty much every team, and I think that he should be banned. More than half the time when I use him I sweep the opposing team. It has the stats, movepool, and sets that can utterly destory a team. Sure the differences are suttle, but if you were expecting Subchomp and send out Starmie, you would lose to pretty much any other verison. It is such a huge impact, even bigger than Manaphy, that I think banning it would be healthy for the metagame.
Are Latios and Latias uber or not? And if they aren't, should Soul Dew be banned or not?
This one I am not too sure about, but I am leaning towards uber on both of them. During the Eon Touranment, my team consisted of CB Lax, CB Metagross, and Vaporeon (good Lati@s counters) and I got swept by one. With Blissey losing Wish, a Specs Latias would be an extremely deadly threat, because of Pursuit. And if you team is without a solid special wall, then you will lose to it. Its options are solid and it can do a number of things. On the other hand, adding both of them would add another solid wisher to the metagame, and most of its counters are OU. Overall though, its high stat totals, great speed and lack of a 4x weakness like the other dragons condemns them to the uber tier for me..
Hello Yache Berry. (and weavile kinda sucks)
I cannot say all of my votes are true. However, they are as I'd like to play the game.
Wobbuffet - OU
Deoxys-S - OU
Garchomp - Uber
Test Lati@s, Mew, Manaphy and Darkrai for OU, not neccessarily at the same time, when we've settled with above three
This is probably not an official voting thread of anything, just thought I'd get my stance in here like everyone else.
I also want to see Obi's thing tested, but again, not now.
Wobbuffet - Uber I've covered this a few times in the Stark Wobbuffet thread. He takes a lot of skill out of the game.
Garchomp - Uber Fastest Bulky Sweeper, 102 Speed is a slap in the face to soooooo many pokes; none of its "counters" can OHKO it; in fact nothing faster can without an Atk/SpAtk Boost; Sand Veil becomes plain retarded when combined with these things.
Deoxys-E - OU It has clear counters, and even if it shifts the metagame that's not necessarily ban worthy. I would support more testing with this guy, especially since this issue isn't a pressing as Chomp and Wobbuffet.
Latis - Uber Ridiculous stat distribution, ridiculous movepool, and as fast as Gengar. They'll make Blissey absolutely necessary.
Is Wobbuffet uber or not?
No. I don't believe it's uber because I simply haven't had any trouble taking it down with ease. Sure, it allows one pokemon to set up, but a lack of recovery move, and all the different statuses + Toxic Spikes/Stealth Rock/Spikes mess it up in more ways than one. I personally like the fact that it punishes Choice users, because a lot of Choice users in themselves are pretty hard to stop otherwise if the player knows what they're doing.
Is Garchomp uber or not?
No. I have not ever had a huge problem with Garchomp. The only problem that I see with it is Sand Veil. However, you can't seriously expect every team with Garchomp to be carrying a Hippowdon/Tyranitar, because that just makes the team very predictable, which can lead to its own demise. I personally just use a fast statuser or Encorer to shut off its Swords Dancing, and then I destroy it. Of course, it requires much more prediction to beat than a lot of other OUs, but I feel that this differentiates the good players from the bad players if they can predict Garchomp's moves to take it out.
Are Latios and Latias uber or not? And if they aren't, should Soul Dew be banned or not?
Not really. I didn't participate in the Eon tourney, so I don't have much of an opinion on them, and of course Soul Dew's going to have to be banned in OU if they're allowed. From all the discussion threads, however, there were some solid counters presented.
For instance, Latios/Latias cannot even really touch Registeel without HP Fire, and even then, it can't even 2HKO him even if Latios has 252 SAtk EVs and a +Nature, and Registeel has nothing. The only way they're going to be doing much damage to him is CMing up, and no one's going to give them the chance to get 6 CMs up.
Also, Tyranitar was mentioned as well, since it can take 3 D-Meteors and can Pursuit them out of there.
Steel types in general do pretty good against them, because they lack a good Fire attack, which is the big difference between them and Salamence. Latias is a pretty good wall, but isn't any better than Blissey.
A clear stance on the BL list. Obi suggested playtesting everything that's not OU to define what is BL. Is this going to be upheld?
No. This seriously should not be upheld. I don't really understand how you even decide what's overcentralizing the game in a situation like that. We also need to have a clear definition of what overcentralizing is before we can even touch this.
Deoxys-S in OU?
Yes. It really has not ever done ANYTHING to me in any of my matches, and I really don't feel that much has actually changed since it came into OU. I personally think that people don't prepare for it all that much since its usage is so low for OU, and that's the only reason that it can sweep people's teams. If you actually tell people to prepare for this thing, then it really doesn't stand a chance IMO.
Garchomp - Uber Garchomp overcentralises the OU metagame like no other.
Wobbuffet - Uber - As Tangerine said, it simply turns the match into an entire guessing game when trying to deal with it, and the community simply doesn't want it.
Deoxys S - OU - I'm fine with this remaining OU.
Lati@s - OU - Without Soul Dew i see no reason to ban these guys, they have clear cut counters for every set and almost every pokemon that counters them is already high in usage in the OU metagame.
Manaphy - Uber Previously i considered it fine in OU but after testing it a bit on my own it really does seem like the coming of special Garchomp. It's bulky, fast and after a Tail Glow really decimates teams, and there's always Wacan berry added annoyance when trying to take it down.
Err, when did this become the voting thread? We should probably decide exactly what we're voting yes/no on, otherwise we don't really know what's being decided by a vote or not. Regardless...
Wobbuffet - Uber. It makes the metagame a lot less strategic, which can only be bad.
Garchomp - Uber. Fast, bulky, and without any true counters - it's just plain too much better than any other OU Pokemon. There's actually a part of me that likes the idea of keeping him in OU, since it's so fun to use, but my intuition and experience as a battler say uber.
Deoxys-E - OU. I'm not a fan of the way it's affected the metagame in regards to offensive teams/choice scarf, but it's not truly too powerful for OU.
Latis - OU. Several of their best counters in Ubers are already OU Pokemon, and without Soul Dew they're not incredibly threatening offensively or defensively.
Is Wobbuffet Uber? Yes.
I've looked at some of the logs posted in the Wobbuffet thread, and among them, TAY's just struck me, as even though he made some mistakes, he still won handily against husk, who is a very good player. Tangerine and I discussed "control" last night, and we agreed that Wobbuffet grants its user too much control over the course of the game. That control was exercised by TAY in his log.
Is Garchomp Uber? Yes.
I'm going to have to go with the majority opinion here. Right now, much of the metagame is based on countering Garchomp, and yet its usage continues to rise. That is definitely overcentralization.
Are Lati@s Uber? Should Soul Dew be allowed? No/No
Based on my battles in the MDWL tournament, I have had no problems countering Lati@s without Soul Dew. However, the prospect of facing one with what is essentially an auto-Calm Mind is scary. On that note, I would also argue that Manaphy is not Uber. I've seen the argument that it's just a special Garchomp, but honestly it doesn't have nearly as much variety as Garchomp. Without Tail Glow (Calm Mind only works well with rain support), Manaphy isn't that powerful, as 100 base Special Attack is quite average and handleable; it also doesn't have a superpowerful move like Outrage. Therefore, it is comparatively ineffective with a Choice set. It also doesn't boast immunity and evasion boosting from the easiest weather to set up, sandstorm. Additionally, I'd vote not Uber for Deoxys-S for the same reason that Tangerine did.
Should we use Obi's idea to test BL? Kinda.
My preferred solution would be to form an exploratory committee for BL/UU that numbers at least a couple tens of people, scrap the current listings, and determine what should go into BL through extensive overall playtesting. Of course, going through every Pokemon one at a time is untenable because it would take forever.
Is Wobb uber? YES
I believe that Wobb gives the user free set ups to things, which in turn, gives the user control on the match. One set up could mean a whole lot sometimes. Sometimes, it doesn't. Well whatever it is, Wobbuffett is very annoying to play against-moreso than anything else.
Is Chomp uber- YES
No true counters and doesn't die quickly unlike the other candidates for "no counters" (Gengar). People have complained about this long enough, and it needs to stop. Oh, and shall I mention overcentralizing?
Is Lati@s uber without the Soul Dew? No
Based on my Eon tourney experience, the possible set of all Lati@s have several countes to them. For example, a Specs Latios can be stopped by Blissey. With misprediction, it is easy to Pursuit Latios out with Tyranitar. DDLatios is stopped by Skarmory if it doesn't have Thunderbolt, and without Recover it is stopped by Bronzong (it still does even if it does have Recover) and Cresselia. Tyranitar stops this set as well. Weavile can revenge kill them, Metagross can revenge them. There's more but I want to stop right here. Personally I think its absurd to have Garchomp in OU while Lati@s stay in ubers-the amount of counters Lati@s have are much more clearly defined than Garchomp's, even though some may be shady.
Is Manaphy uber? Retest
I used to fight for Manaphy's right to stay in OU in the past, and I got a big slap in the face. After several people tell me enough reasons why it should be uber, I backed down. However, the metagame's constantly changing. For all we know we might not need CMBliss to stop Manaphy anymore. However, being a "Special Garchomp" still freaks me out a bit. I say retest.
Is Deoxys-S OU: Yes
Might as well.
I won't get into Darkrai until everything else is resolved
That's all for now
Why not? I don't see any way to see what is "overcentralizing" without doing that.
If we are going to do a voting thing, we should be doing it in a public forum, not behind closed doors.
Am I the only one who thinks the EON Tournament held by Jibaku didn't acheive anything? It was clearly a tournament advertising the use of these twins, and every match I had was simply teams jam packed with Lati@s counters which didn't let them function. I went through the whole tournament using Latios, Metagross, Heracross, Blissey etc.. It's not hard to stop something when you're using all the counters you can, and this was the case in most of my matches. (Notice how two of those would be the counters in Uber anyway). In my opinion it wasn't a fair test and they should stay Uber, even without Soul Dew.
This is in my experience, Garchomp doesn't really seem too overpowering. I'd gladly keep it OU, I honestly think everyone's making too much of a fuss about it, I think it plays fine and would rather play with it in OU than without it.
I may be somewhat "old fashioned" and feel that we should just stick to what we have done, keeping Wobbuffet and Deoxys-S Uber. I've had more trouble with Wobbuffet since it was bumped down in the past few weeks than I have with Garchomp since Shoddy first began.
I'm also a bit hesitant on the "Forms" idea of Pokémon, I think that Deoxys-S should stay Uber, one reason being it's still Deoxys. I'm not arsed about playing with it, I don't think anyone really is. It's Deoxys, it should be considered Uber. Nobody really cared about it being bumped down and using it until someone suggested testing it in a lower tier. Everyone was fine with it being in Uber because no one gives a shit. Everything was fine.
I'm not really sure what else to say, just Wobbuffet Uber, Deoxys-S Uber, Lati@s Uber & Garchomp OU. It was fine in the first place and we don't need to keep testing more shit right now, I'm personally sick of it all and it makes me not want to play the game anymore lol.
Stick to how it was, play the game.
Wobbuffet - Uber - Wobbuffet takes any skill (which Smogon advocates) and throws that out the window. As soon as Wobbuffet enters the playing field, you either sacrifice a pokemon, or give your opponent a free set up. It is impossible to prepare for Wobbuffet. From reading logs and from personal experience, it is not something needed/wanted in OU.
Garchomp - Uber - Obviously the most centralizing and dominating force in OU, Garchomp forces you to use at least two pokemon to take it down. Like Great Sage said, the metagame is focused on stopping Garchomp, and the usage is still rising. That is quite a statement about the power and centralization that this pokemon is causing.
Deoxys-E - I don't care - I guess I don't mind this staying in OU, though it wouldn't break my heart if Deoxys-E happened to be banned again. It's a big threat that's hard to take on in certain situations, but not as gamebreaking as Wobbuffet or Garchomp I suppose.
Latias/Latios - I don't know - I have mixed feelings for the Lati's. While I've played with and against them, I'm having a hard time deciding on this. I know that they have a lot of potential in OU, possibly to much. But they seem to be on the edge of overpowering and just powerful, so I would need more personal experience to give a definitive answer here.
Manaphy - Uber - Maniac and I have talked a lot about Manaphy in OU, and every time we do, it just keeps getting scarier. Before, I was excited about testing Manaphy, as it added another cool special attacking pokemon, as well as a great bulky water. Then I started using it, and thought "Holy shit". And this was with a bulky set. Later I tried a defensive Calm Minder with Rain Dance / Rest / Surf, and that pushed me over the edge. Sure, the Tail Glow sweeper may not be overcentralising, but these other bulkier sets would be in my opinion.
Wobbuffet Uber? Yes.
As if the whole "it guarantees at least one KO per match without even trying" argument wasn't enough, there's the fact that it completely halts the match the turn its brought in. No matter how fast or slow a game is going offensively, Wobbuffet brings it all to a complete stop the second its brought in. No other pokemon can just stop a game and change momentum like Wobbuffet can.
Deoxys-Speed Uber? Yes.
As I've mentioned before in TPR (and ipl has too), Deoxys-Speed renders offensive teams unusable. Plain and simple. Teams that rely on resistances instead of sheer defensive stats can not hold up to Deoxys-Speed, and it also eliminates the effectiveness of the Choice Scarf. Before D-S was allowed, everyone (and by everyone I mean everyone that I've ever talked to about it) held the belief that stall in D/P was impossible, and that the only way to win was to outmuscle your opponent. Deoxys-Speed made this completely obsolete by itself. That is pretty centralizing to me.
Garchomp Uber? Yes.
"It's most common set is uncounterable". "You have to have at least 2 pokemon on your team that can beat it, and even then they have to deal with Sand Veil". "It is by far the most common pokemon in OU". Don't these facts that are commonly brought up say more than bullshit usage statistics that are irrelvant to how pokemon is actually played?
Lati@s Uber? Yes.
Lati@s without Soul Dew Uber? Yes.
I think that with Soul Dew, Lati@s is very, very Uber.
But without it, I am really on the fence. I am persuaded towards Uber because Blissey and Pursuit are the only solid Lati counters. Latias is the best support pokemon in the game. Latios is one of the best attackers in the game, sporting that amazing typing and ability, and the strongest Draco Meteor in the game with the same base speed as Gengar. Does this make it uber? Maybe not, but its pretty close.
Manaphy Uber? Yes.
The same base stats as Celebi, except with better typing, Tail Glow and Rain Dance giving it status immunity and double STAB. Even a set like Rest/Rain Dance/Tail Glow/Surf would dominate almost everything in OU.
A "Not OU" ladder to define BL? Yes.
This is a really good idea and I think that this would make the BL tier immediately obvious. Also, we could kill two birds with one stone and end the NFE in UU argument with this ladder as well.
I completely agree with this, and I said the same thing about the Deoxys-Speed tournament that was held on ShoddyBattle.
Reiterating Obi's point: why are we voting here??? There should be bold-voting polls in the Policy Review to decide this to make the process visible to the community at large. We can't do it behind closed doors.
Garchomp: uber? Yes.
This pokemon has been the central fear of the OU tier and has been proven to have no definite counters outside of OU. Its tier placement has been quite controversial due to its ridiculous, disproportional stat distribution and Sand Veil ability. Garchomp is indeed the part of the standard metagame that cuts the reliability of any defensive pokemon in general, and because of the fact it has Earthquake, Outrage, and Swords Dance in the same movepool with STAB to complement this, nothing can safely switch in, or stall Garchomp for that matter. Yache Berry went to prove that Mamoswine and Weavile were insufficient revenge killing pokemon for Garchomp. I suggest stopping the chaos this pokemon creates.
Deoxys-E: uber? Yes.
Coming to back up jr7 on this one. Deoxys-E was relegated to OU after some brief testing and votes on shoddybattle.com, and its detrimental effect on an offensively oriented tier was incredibly overlooked. Though Deoxys-E's 90/90 base attacking stats are sub-par, its blinding base 180 speed lets it utilize a Life Orb or Expert belt to make up for its attacking power without the restriction of Choice Scarf. The movepool Deoxys-E can work with is pretty ridiculous. Life Orbed Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Superpower, Shadow Ball, Grass Knot, and stab Psycho Boost/Psychic are far enough to knock holes in fragile teams. Defensive versions using Taunt/Toxic/Cosmic Power/ Recover exist as well, and Deoxys even has access to two gamebreaking entry hazards: Spikes and Stealth Rock. Though it is a predicatble pokemon in general, many teams cannot handle its movepool without taking serious damage early on.
Wobuffet: Uber? Yes.
Its no surprise this was one of the first pokemon on our list. The reasons this pokemon was ever brought to OU are ambiguous, and it is obvious Wobuffet belongs in the uber tier. It has far enough Hitpoints to make up for its lackluster defensive stats, and what makes it so ridiculously broken is its trapping ability, Shadow Tag. This ability instantly makes Wobuffet "uncounterable", in a way similar to Garchomp. Mirror Coat/ Counter eliminate any foes unable to score a solid hit, or a super effective hit for this matter. A simple pokemon attempting to stat up will be encored. Following this the user of Wobbuffet is granted a free switch, and this is almost guaranteed thanks to Safeguard. There are many obvious reasons why this pokemon belongs in ubers.
The pokemon I did not mention have debateable tier placement that I will discuss later.
This assumes everyone agrees with the plan to begin with, right? (X-Act's plan at the end)
But yeah I do agree that this should be up in PR for all to see
Last time I spoke to colin, he suggested he had some kind of plan in mind, though he didnt get around to explaining it to me.
I agree we shouldnt be deciding Smogon policy based on whatever Colin decides, but we should listen to what he has to say..
He also is going to have more in depth stats in the near future. I personally dont think an adequate statistical approach is possible in any practical manner, but I think we should give him his chance to argue his case otherwise.
Essentially at this point, it seems like it would be a good idea to wait for Colin's improved statistics to come available. We've waited this long, I dont see the problem with waiting longer.
Have a nice day.
I agree completely with this. That's why I didn't mention my opinion on any Pokemon here.
Also I think the votes should be done on PR. That's if we agree to take a vote?
Furthermore, I think we shouldn't take a vote on everything at once. Maybe Wobbuffet being uber or non-uber affects Garchomp being uber or non-uber? I think we should first vote for one, and then for another, etc.
I agree with all 3 of these statements, but considering that the tutoring tournament has been going on, we tutors don't have very much motivation to do our jobs right now. Throwing that out there.
Well, okay, but hopefully we don't have to wait too long. I'd suggest that we wait for Colin's statistics, then we analyse them and vote.
These are just my opinions if we aren't going to count this and wait for Colin's statistics. However, I think that the statistics aren't necessarily going to help with this as much as we would like since they are simply usage of the Pokemon themselves and not the movesets or anything more specific like that. They don't really tell us how people are building their teams, which Pokemon like Garchomp affect greatly.
Is Wobbuffet uber or not? Yes.
Wobbuffet's ability to basically take away one of your Pokemon has a huge effect on how a battle can play out. It can punish both attackers and non-attackers with Counter/Mirror Coat and Encore, respectively, which allows it to easily set up another Pokemon to sweep you. It basically takes a lot of skill out of the game because it is basically impossible to counter it effectively like one would shut down anything else. Is Garchomp uber or not? Yes.
It's not just about usage statistics; it also affects team-building as a whole. Its presence forces one to have one or more counters that can take it on. It can effectively stop many of the Pokemon that try to wall it; it can beat Skarmory and Bronzong with Fire Blast or Fire Fang and it can beat Hippowdon and others with boosted Dragon-type attacks. Garchomp has powerful base stats that make so many movesets effective and render so many opponents ineffective.
Are Latios and Latias uber or not? And if they aren't, should Soul Dew be banned or not? Uber unless Soul Dew is banned in OU.
Soul Dew makes them overpowered, but without it, they are definitely beatable.
Is Deoxys-E uber? No. I agree with Tangerine's position, but this can change in the future.
A clear stance on the BL list. Obi suggested playtesting everything that's not OU to define what is BL. Is this going to be upheld? Not right now.
Let's solve the main issues with OU first so that we know what is OU and what isn't. However, in the future, it might be worthwhile.
Maybe someone should ask Colin if he's going to get to these stats soon, because I'm pretty tired of waiting myself.
Yeah, so am I. Not to mention that our decisions shouldn't be based solely on statistics anyway.