Arceus-Grass (QC 1/3)

Should Bullet Seed/Seed Bomb and Jolly nature be mentioned as an option?


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PISTOLERO

I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
Arceus-Grass


Foliage

Overview
########

- Meadow Plate gives arceus a rarely used typing, yet an effective one.
- Possesses typical Arceus-level bulk like all formes do.
- Great niche as a defensive mon due to its unique ability to check Kyogre and Groudon and offensive Palkia all at once.
- Has a wide movepool with many support options such as Thunder Wave, Will-O-Wisp, and Defog.
- Has several glaring weaknesses to common tier members such as Ho-Oh, Mega Gengar and Yveltal.
- Due to these weaknesses, Arceus-Grass must be carefully built around when used, with Pursuit support for Mega Gengar being absolutely mandatory, and may also have to sacrifice one of its support slots to run Earthquake or Stone Edge so that it can deal with its problems itself.

Supportceus-Grass
########
name: Supportceus-Grass
move 1: Judgment / Grass Knot
move 2: Will-o-Wisp
move 3: Defog / Stone Edge / Earthquake
move 4: Recover
ability: Multitype
item: Meadow Plate
nature: Timid
evs: 248 HP / 164 SpDef / 96 Spe

Moves
========

  • Judgment gets first slash due to its reliability as a Grass STAB, hitting for a consistent 100 base power on everything. However, Grass Knot has a base power of 120 on most Ubers Pokemon due to them being heavy - the choice between the two is up to player preference.
  • Defog works well on all Arceus to eliminate hazards and screens to support your team, and helps the kind of teams that Arceus-Grass fits well on deal with Spikes and Stealth Rock nicely.
  • Stone Edge means that Arceus-Grass is no longer Ho-Oh and Yveltal bait - even with a Timid nature, Stone Edge deals upwards of 85% to max HP Ho-Oh, and almost half to offensive Yveltal.
  • Earthquake can deal heavy damage to Mega Gengar (a possible OHKO after SR), as well as doing respectable damage to Dialga and nailing Heatran to the wall.
  • Will-O-Wisp deters physical attackers from switching in, and can cripple Extremekiller Arceus or SD Arceus-Ground, as well as Mega Mewtwo X. It cripples Zekrom, Scizor and Aegislash as well, meaning that Scizor in particular cannot have its way with Arceus-Grass. It does give Ho-Oh a completely free switchin, however, so it should be used with Stone Edge or extremely sturdy teammates to check Ho-Oh. However, Thunder Wave is also a very good move for Arceus-Grass to use as no Ground-Types will switch in on it, and Electric-Types don't tend to switch in either. It allows Arceus to cripple Gengar and Yveltal switchins, as well as ruining Palkia without Rest that stay in to try and status you as well, and can catch any other miscellaneous switchins such as Darkrai and Mewtwo. Again
  • Recover is standard on all bulky Arceus and allows Arceus-Grass to stay alive throughout the match.
Set Details
========
  • The EVs provide nice bulk, and allows sufficient damage with stone edge when needed. A Timid nature and 96 Speed EVs allow Arceus-Grass to outrun Palkia and other base 100s, as well as not compromising Arceus-Grass's defenses - Stone Edge and Earthquake still do enough damage even with a -Atk nature.
  • Moves chosen depend on preference and overall team structure.
  • An alternative EV spread if running Earthquake would be 252 HP / 72 Atk / 72 Sdef / 112 Spe with hasty nature, as this allows Arceus-Grass to OHKO Mega Gengar after Stealth Rock.
  • Another alternate spread to be a backup check to xerneas would be 252 hp / 200 SpD / 56 Speed with Calm nature, with a moveset of Grass Knot / Thunder Wave or Roar / Defog or Will-O-Wisp / Recover (Thunder Wave should not be on the same moveset as Roar or Will-O-Wisp, however). This is however very slow and extremely vulnerable to most Steel-Types.

Usage Tips
========
  • This set’s moveslots are very interchangeable, and thus it can handle different threats with the right moves, so choose knowing what you want to cover.
  • This set is a decent Specs/Scarf Kyogre check with smart prediction, as it takes less than half from Scarf Water Spout, and can outspeed Specs Kyogre and threaten it with Grass Knot.
  • Earthquake is only worth using if you have a really solid answer for ho-oh as even with earthquake, Gengar isn't always losing - it can outspeed and use Sludge Wave, or Destiny Bond Arceus-Grass away.
  • Avoid Mega-Gengar as much as possible by being careful with your switches, as it can easily remove Arceus-Grass and open your team up to Kyogre and/or Palkia to wreak havoc. For this reason, Pursuit users such as Tyranitar and Mega Scizor work well alongside Arceus-Grass due to their ability to trap Gengar and prevent it from Mega Evolving safely.
Team Options
========
  • Water Types are good teammates - Kyogre works nicely as it can douse Arceus-Grass's Fire weakness, as well as dealing with enemy Pokemon such as Kyogre and Palkia.
  • As mentioned, Pursuit users like Scizor or Tyranitar help mitigate the weakness to Mega Gengar. Tyranitar does this and can also check Ho-Oh, but is weak to Focus Blast so Mega Gengar can beat it if it catches it on the switchin. Scizor can also be caught by Hidden Power Fire, but this issue is mitigated with the aforementioned rain.
  • A Rock or Steel type to help deal with ho-oh and other flying types is nice if you elect not to use Stone Edge.
  • Stealth Rock support is of course vital, as it means Ho-Oh and Yveltal pay a high price for switching in instead of being able to come in for free.

Other Options
########
  • Ice beam can be used instead of Earthquake or Stone Edge, as it provides a way to hit the dragon types in the tier for decent damage - however, outside of that it is redundant, and Arceus-Grass does just fine against Palkia and Zekrom whilst still being able to do nothing against Reshiram and Dialga - it is also weak against Giratina-O and Giratina-A.
  • Calm Mind Arceus-Grass is usable, and can use a moveset consisting of Grass Knot, Ice Beam/Fire Blast/Earth Power/other coverage move/Refresh, Calm Mind and Recover, but is easily walled, facepalms if it gets poisoned and doesn't run Refresh, and is always hard walled by something, especially Ho-Oh.
  • Fire Blast can fill the same role as Ice Beam and take over the edgequake moveslot, allowing Arceus-Grass to reduce Scizor and Ferrothorn to ashes, as well as dealing significant damage to Klefki.

Checks & Counters
########

**Shadow Tag**: Mega Gengar destroys Grass Arceus with STAB Sludge Wave. Gothitelle has no difficulty setting up on it while Wobbuffet doesn't have to do much to transform Grass Arceus into total setup fodder for a sweeper. Gothitelle can also trap Arceus-Grass and set up on it.

**Fire-types**: Both Ho-Oh and Blaziken fear next to nothing from Grass-Arceus while they can hit back very hard with their powerful STAB attacks. Blaziken can also use Grass Arceus as a free Swords Dance making it very difficult to check, but is ruined by Thunder Wave. Reshiram can Blue Flare Arceus-Grass into oblivion with ease. Heatran can mess with variants without Earthquake by using Toxic, Taunting Defog, setting up Stealth Rock or simply attacking Arceus-Grass with Lava Plume.

**Steel-types**: Klefki, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Forretress have no qualms about switching in on Grass Arceus and setting up layers of Spikes, although burns are bothersome, and Fire Blast can catch them by surprise. Dialga can setup SR or go straight for the Toxic. Scizor and Mega Lucario can also destroy Grass Arceus if it doesn't run Will-O-Wisp or Fire Blast.
.
**Yveltal**: Resists Grass-type attacks and destroys Arceus with Oblivion Wing and Hurricane. It dislikes having extra passive damage from Will-O-Wisp on top of a crippled Sucker Punch, though, and can get caught out by Thunder Wave or Stone Edge.

**Shaymin-S**: x4 Grass Arceus's STAB and barely has to try when flinch haxing with Air Slash. Can safely use Substitute to block whatever status Arceus may have, but will be ruined by Thunder Wave on the switchin.

**Poison Arceus**: Can setup a Calm Mind sweep on Grass Arceus without difficulty, or just eat away at it with Poison Jab.

**Kyurem-W**: Resists Judgment and Grass Knot while hitting back very hard with STAB Ice Beam, but intensely dislikes Thunder Wave.

**Status**: Toxic and Paralysis prevents Grass Arceus from staying in and abusing Recover. Burns aren't as troublesome but the passive damage can still rack up quickly.
 
Last edited:
I have some initial comments:

"Great niche as a defensive mon due to its unique ability to check Palkia, Kyogre and Groudon all at once."
I would reword this point to something like "checks ogre (these are in short supply) + has oft-overlooked ground and electric resists". Grassy isn't a great Palkia check overall so I would omit that, in the overview at least.

Defog should be the primary slash; stone edge is imo a situational move that should be used only to patch up the ho-oh weakness on specific builds. grassy is a great defogger and a shaky ho-oh check, and the slashing should be represented as such.

Mention Judgment in moves at least:
0 SpA Meadow Plate Arceus-Grass Judgment vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mewtwo Y: 129-153 (36.5 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Meadow Plate Arceus-Grass Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mewtwo Y: 78-93 (22 - 26.3%) -- 9% chance to 4HKO

I would mention Zekrom and Scizor as relevant targets of wisp (the "physical attackers"), also Ferrothorn.

Mention Tyranitar explicitly in team options, grassy is great on sand as an ogre check that actually patches up the ground weakness these teams are often susceptible to (maybe just the ones i build).

Stealth Rock and Toxic go in OO imo.
 
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Manaphy

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72 Atk Grassceus OHKO's Mega Gengar after Stealth Rock damage iirc, and outspeeds the turn he Mega evolves. So, you could say EQ Grassy is a Mega Gengar lure. I think it was with a -Def nature though.

I think Aromatherapy/Heal Bell mons should be mentioned as good teammates since Toxic is everywhere.

Judgement goes in OO. 120 BP GK is too good. Seed Bomb and Bullet Seed urgh, I guess you could stick them on an EQ set instead of Judgement, up to you weather you want them in OO or not.
 
move 1: Grass Knot
move 3: Defog / Stone Edge /Earthquake
move 2: Will-O-Wisp / Stone Edge / Earthquake
move 4: Recover

this mon fits best on stall as a role compressor (checks grounds, kyogre and zekrom) and therefore usually wants defog and wow. you kinda need to to run it with a pursuit trapper (sdef scizor or chople ttar). EQ is viable but giving up defog is often not an option. Stone Edge or EQ is nice to have depending on how strong your core is. I wouldn't honestly use this without pursuit anyway, hence my slashing. Thunder Wave holds very litte utility, you can't burn Zekrom, and Gengar will still trap and remove you. You aren't living a +2 Moonblast from Xerneas without very significant sdef investment (I don't think 144 is enough after SR) and even then it takes very little chip damages for Xerneas to get past you, so thunder wave will usually not help against Xerneas either.

the best partners are pursuit trappers, lando-t and clerics so make sure to emphasize that (as well as the fact you use this on stall and almost never on any other archetype).
 
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you what
what
what
what

Arceus-Grass in rain is the ONLY Palkia counter in existence (Chansey doesn't count and even it can be 2hkoed)

are you serious about this? really? like "it can be poisoned bla bla bla etc" but you will find that if you have used Arceus-Grass, and I'm pretty sure i have seen you using it, that it checks all offensive Palkia except like Specs in sun...... unboosted Fire Blast is not a 2HKO i don't think
On the (more defensive) builds you want to be using Grassy on, it's not going to be your go-to kia check. It only really checks offensive Palkia well in rain and is an okay check in neutral weather. Above all, Grassy shines as an ogre check (that has nice ground and electric resists) rather than a palkia check so I feel the overview should represent that accordingly. Checking Palkia can go under usage tips imo.

Also, I feel strongly about Judgment going in moves.
 

Fireburn

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Do Hack's slashing + Judgment in moves.

Also Arceus doesn't learn Seed Bomb lol. Bullet Seed can go in OO though, means you don't have to run a -Def or -Atk nature.

Reshiram can go under Fire-types as well as Heatran.
 
Relevant targets isn't the matter, its the fact that with Judgment you can hit everything for solid damage even on resisted hits, what if there is a Klefki there at 10% and you can't kill it because Grass Knot does pathetic damage? I know its not a common scenario (if its ever happened) but its the jist of the idea im trying to get across. Grass Knot's damage is unreliable vs everything and Judgment takes away that unreliability, hence: it should go in moves.
 
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PISTOLERO

I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
Talked to Melee Mewtwo and then Shrang on IRC, conclusions were that the slashing should be:

move 1: Judgment / Grass Knot
move 2: Will-o-Wisp
move 3: Defog / Stone Edge / Earthquake
move 4: Recover

Thunder Wave mentioned in moves, Melee Mewtwo thinks Judgment is better as first slash due to its consistency.

More importantly, Umbreon is a gay shit according to Shrang, and therefore Shrang is a gay shit according to Melee Mewtwo, and trans > gay because of Meloetta, according to Shrang anyway :P

]
(conversation before was about Grass Knot vs Judgment)
11:46 Melee_Mewtwo: being able to hit it
11:46 Melee_Mewtwo: with your nice specially bulky arc forme
11:46 LustrousPalkia: fair enough
11:46 Melee_Mewtwo: is useful
11:46 Melee_Mewtwo: and not being free food for mmy is kinda nice too
11:46 Melee_Mewtwo: especially if you are using wisp and not twave on your grassy
11:46 LustrousPalkia: do you agree with this move order/slashing from hack:
11:46 LustrousPalkia: move 3: Defog / Stone Edge /Earthquake move 2: Will-O-Wisp / Stone Edge / Earthquake
11:46 Melee_Mewtwo: that's so funky can we clean that up
11:47 LustrousPalkia: hack also says that thunder wave is pretty useless
11:47 bartimaeus: wow slashitis if there ever was
11:47 LustrousPalkia: my current slashing is:
11:47 Melee_Mewtwo: idk i like twave on some builds
11:47 LustrousPalkia: move 3: Stone Edge / Defog / Earthquake move 2: Thunder Wave / Will-O-Wisp
11:47 LustrousPalkia: that's what i have right now
11:48 Melee_Mewtwo: i wouldn't put twave fist slash
11:48 Melee_Mewtwo: did hack
11:48 Melee_Mewtwo: explain his slashing?
11:48 Melee_Mewtwo: i want to condense it
11:48 Melee_Mewtwo: but afraid to butcher the thought behind it
11:48 LustrousPalkia: erm
11:48 *** raisin is now known as Muk
11:49 LustrousPalkia: thunder Wave is a very good move for Arceus-Grass to use as no Ground-Types will switch in on it, and Electric-Types don't tend to switch in either. It allows Arceus to cripple Gengar and Yveltal switchins, as well as ruining Palkia without Rest that stay in to try and status you as well, and can catch any other miscellaneous switchins such as Darkrai and Mew
11:49 LustrousPalkia: oh wait that's my explanation for twave
11:49 Melee_Mewtwo: lol yeah
11:49 LustrousPalkia: :P
11:49 LustrousPalkia: hack's reasoning is:
11:49 LustrousPalkia: this mon fits best on stall as a role compressor (checks grounds, kyogre and zekrom) and therefore usually wants defog and wow. you kinda need to to run it with a pursuit trapper (sdef scizor or chople ttar). EQ is viable but giving up defog is often not an option. Stone Edge or EQ is nice to have depending on how strong your core is.
11:49 Muk: btw, why is eq listed over earth power? or does eq have a chance to ohko gengar after SR even with a -atk nature
11:49 Melee_Mewtwo: okay
11:49 LustrousPalkia: I wouldn't honestly use this without pursuit anyway, hence my slashing. Thunder Wave holds very litte utility, you can't burn Zekrom, and Gengar will still trap and remove you. You aren't living a +2 Moonblast from Xerneas without very significant sdef investment (I don't think 144 is enough after SR) and even then it takes very little chip damages for Xernea
11:49 Muk: i think i asked that in the old thread too
11:49 LustrousPalkia: erm there's more
11:50 LustrousPalkia: the best partners are pursuit trappers, lando-t and clerics so make sure to emphasize that (as well as the fact you use this on stall and almost never on any other archetype).
11:50 LustrousPalkia: EQ does more even with -atk
11:50 Muk: but is it still just a 2hko
11:50 Melee_Mewtwo: keep in mind gengar's petty defense stat muk
11:50 Muk: earth power could be better against like dialga
11:50 Melee_Mewtwo: ummm it sounds like
11:50 Muk: yeah i know but if it's a 2hko anyway then EP may be worth it
11:50 Melee_Mewtwo: eq / edge may be more moves
11:51 Melee_Mewtwo: you see my problem with hacks slashing
11:51 Melee_Mewtwo: is that somebody could read it
11:51 Melee_Mewtwo: and get
11:51 Melee_Mewtwo: a grass stab, recover, edgequake set
11:51 LustrousPalkia: xactly
11:51 Melee_Mewtwo: for their grass ar
11:51 Melee_Mewtwo: c
11:51 Melee_Mewtwo: which is lol
11:51 LustrousPalkia: NO
11:51 LustrousPalkia: STRONG
11:51 LustrousPalkia: use bullet seed and SD
11:51 LustrousPalkia: and win
11:51 LustrousPalkia: (i have tried it)
11:51 Melee_Mewtwo: the easy way out
11:51 Melee_Mewtwo: is to
11:51 Melee_Mewtwo: just moves mention both moves
11:51 Melee_Mewtwo: the other option
11:51 Melee_Mewtwo: is to determine which mov
11:51 Melee_Mewtwo: is more important for grassy
11:51 LustrousPalkia: so ditch both?
11:51 Melee_Mewtwo: i kinda want to say
11:52 Muk: btw lustrouspalkia
11:52 Melee_Mewtwo: wisp is cause
11:52 LustrousPalkia: it really depends though
11:52 Melee_Mewtwo: those coverage moves + defog
11:52 Melee_Mewtwo: leaves you as pretty abusable and not terribly useful ata checking things
11:52 LustrousPalkia: i INTENSELY dislike Will-O-Wisp as it pretty much mandates Stone Edge in my opinion
11:52 Muk: never mind actually
11:52 LustrousPalkia: as with Wisp/Defog you get destroyed by Ho-Oh
11:52 LustrousPalkia: like it's literally putting up a sign askilgn it to come in
11:52 Melee_Mewtwo: ho oh isn't really a problem tbh
11:52 Melee_Mewtwo: it's a team related weakeness
11:53 Melee_Mewtwo: grassy likes stall builds so odds are
11:53 Melee_Mewtwo: you'll have plenty of switch ins anyways
11:53 *** Aquasition joined #ubers
11:53 LustrousPalkia: true but
11:53 LustrousPalkia: giving hooh free burns and subs
11:53 LustrousPalkia: seems nasty still
11:53 Melee_Mewtwo: it sucks but
11:53 Melee_Mewtwo: it can be compensated
11:53 Melee_Mewtwo: byt hte team
11:53 Melee_Mewtwo: i want to say um
11:53 Melee_Mewtwo: stab
11:53 Melee_Mewtwo: recover
11:53 Melee_Mewtwo: wisp
11:54 Melee_Mewtwo: defog / stone / eq
11:54 Melee_Mewtwo: twave in moves mention probably
11:54 Melee_Mewtwo: as long as you explain the pros and the cons
11:54 LustrousPalkia: okay then
11:54 Melee_Mewtwo: check with other qc
11:54 LustrousPalkia: there was something else
11:54 LustrousPalkia: erm
11:54 Melee_Mewtwo: if they want to do that slashing
11:54 LustrousPalkia: bb
11:54 Melee_Mewtwo: or jsut moves mention edgequake
11:54 LustrousPalkia: brb*
11:54 Melee_Mewtwo: cause
11:55 Melee_Mewtwo: i really dislike slashing them on both slots
11:55 LustrousPalkia: "Grassy isn't a great Palkia check overall so I would omit that, in the overview at least"
11:55 LustrousPalkia: malefic's opinion
11:55 Muk: lustrouspalkia pls
11:56 Muk: sure it's a great offensive palkia check but the palkia set called "standard" has toxic as an unslashed option
11:56 LustrousPalkia: if i'm saying something negative about kia, you know that it's true
11:56 LustrousPalkia: so what
11:56 LustrousPalkia: omg it has toxic
11:56 LustrousPalkia: therefoer it checks everything
11:56 LustrousPalkia: what is this shitty attitude
11:56 Muk: just as far as analysis continuity and all that goes
11:56 bartimaeus: -____-
11:56 Muk: :^)
11:56 Melee_Mewtwo: yeah i agree
11:56 shrang: LustrousPalkia hack also says that thunder wave is pretty useless
11:56 Melee_Mewtwo: grassy isn't a good palkia check
11:56 Melee_Mewtwo: anymore
11:57 shrang: coming from the guy who hanged out with DM for a large part of his careere
11:57 LustrousPalkia: against offensive kia it is
11:57 shrang: :D
11:57 shrang: anyway thunder wave is actually kind of good on grassceus
11:57 LustrousPalkia: specs and lustrouskia
11:57 shrang: since every poke that can take thunder wave
11:57 LustrousPalkia: OMG this piece of shit is so divisive
11:57 shrang: hates grassceus
11:57 Muk: so why not just say it's a great check to offensive palkia?
11:57 Muk: problem solved
11:57 Muk: lel
11:58 Melee_Mewtwo: lol it is lusty
11:58 Melee_Mewtwo: no its not a check to offensive palkia
11:58 shrang: altho I do prefer WoW > t-wave tho
11:58 Melee_Mewtwo: cause fire blast
11:58 LustrousPalkia: stupidass gengar bait
11:58 Melee_Mewtwo: roasts you now
11:58 LustrousPalkia: actually
11:58 LustrousPalkia: unboosted fire blast
11:58 shrang: it's just more useful
11:58 Muk: but muh rain
11:58 LustrousPalkia: doesn't 2hko
11:58 Melee_Mewtwo: more than just gengar but
11:58 Melee_Mewtwo: that certianly doesn't hlep
11:58 LustrousPalkia: melee
11:58 Melee_Mewtwo: p sure it does lusty
11:58 LustrousPalkia: n
11:58 Melee_Mewtwo: after sr
11:58 shrang: t-wave does fuck up gengar tho
11:58 Melee_Mewtwo: ?
11:58 LustrousPalkia: itemless fire blast
11:58 shrang: which is nice
11:58 LustrousPalkia: HMMM
11:58 LustrousPalkia: lemme go look
11:59 shrang: !stats mega gengar
11:59 shrang: hmmmm
11:59 shrang: I'd put psyshock in OO
11:59 shrang: just to troll gengar
11:59 Melee_Mewtwo: nah shrang we already got
11:59 shrang: :D
11:59 Melee_Mewtwo: eq for it
11:59 LustrousPalkia: 252 SpA Palkia Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 160 SpD Arceus-Grass: 200-236 (45 - 53.1%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO
11:59 LustrousPalkia: you're right
11:59 Melee_Mewtwo: i always am :^)
11:59 shrang: is that in the rain
12:00 LustrousPalkia: :)
12:00 LustrousPalkia: oh in rain it obviously does jack shit
12:00 Melee_Mewtwo: no shrang that's the problem
12:00 Melee_Mewtwo: rain isn't always up
12:00 shrang: I kind of like the look of t-wave then
12:00 shrang: paralyse palk
12:00 shrang: recover spam
12:00 *** SparksBlade quit (Ping timeout)
12:00 shrang: until full para
12:00 shrang: then attack
12:00 shrang: wait
12:00 shrang: you're faster already
12:01 shrang: soooooooo
12:01 LustrousPalkia: hack says that twave is ass
12:01 shrang: Hack thinks everything is ass
12:01 Muk: lol @ i always am
12:01 LustrousPalkia: to be honest i should just link to other arc analyses and write "don't use this it's shit"
12:01 LustrousPalkia: :'(
12:02 LustrousPalkia: amount of support it needs is stupid high
12:02 bartimaeus: no it fits very nicely on certain cores
12:02 Melee_Mewtwo: twave in moves imo
12:02 shrang: it is still a good poke tho
12:02 LustrousPalkia: okay so it should go like this:
12:02 LustrousPalkia: move 1: knot / judgment
12:02 LustrousPalkia: move 2: recover
12:03 LustrousPalkia: move 3: defog
12:03 LustrousPalkia: move 4: will o wisp
12:03 LustrousPalkia: then mention twave, edgequake in moves
12:03 LustrousPalkia: ?
12:03 shrang: defog isn't compulsory imo
12:03 Melee_Mewtwo: either edgequake in moves
12:03 Melee_Mewtwo: or slashed with defog
12:03 Melee_Mewtwo: imo
12:03 Melee_Mewtwo: ask other qc
12:03 shrang; ^
12:03 Melee_Mewtwo: i'm inclined
12:03 LustrousPalkia: okay so move 3: defog / stone edge / EQ
12:03 Melee_Mewtwo: to say slashed with defog
12:03 Melee_Mewtwo: yeah
12:03 shrang: Melee_Mewtwo or slashed with defog 21:04 Melee_Mewtwo imo 21:04 Melee_Mewtwo ask other qc
12:03 shrang: I agree with that
12:03 LustrousPalkia: lol
12:03 LustrousPalkia: the QC have spoken
12:04 LustrousPalkia: issue i have with defogless arc on stall is that you have to outsource
12:04 LustrousPalkia: your defog
12:04 LustrousPalkia: to shitty defoggers
12:04 LustrousPalkia: like scizor and giratina
12:04 LustrousPalkia: shitty in comparision i mean
12:04 shrang: hmmmm
12:04 shrang: melee
12:04 shrang: I'm tempted
12:04 shrang: to test meloetta
12:04 shrang: she's one of few clerics
12:05 shrang: that isn't fucked by gengar
12:05 Melee_Mewtwo: not neccessarily lusty
12:05 Melee_Mewtwo: mind you
12:05 shrang: altho she doesn't do much else
12:05 Melee_Mewtwo: stall is very dkmfjksdfjsdofisd for me this gen
12:05 LustrousPalkia:(umbreon shrang)
12:05 Melee_Mewtwo: but you always have toher optiions
12:05 LustrousPalkia: fair enough
12:05 Melee_Mewtwo: like not running anti hazards stuff at all
12:05 Melee_Mewtwo: and just not being
12:05 shrang: fuck umbreon
12:05 Melee_Mewtwo: hazards weak
12:05 shrang: umbreon is a gay shit
12:05 LustrousPalkia: okay
12:05 Melee_Mewtwo: fuck shrang
12:05 LustrousPalkia: should I CP this conversation?
12:05 Melee_Mewtwo: he's a gay shit
12:05 shrang: meloetta is trans
12:05 shrang: trans > gay
 
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Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
flareon doesn't mind gar either

I'd just have
GK
Recover
Defog
WoW

Mention T-wave, Stone Edge, Earthquake, Judgement in Moves.
Seems simple, we all agree those 4 work nicely, the rest of it depends on team set up.
 

Inspirited

There is usually higher ground.
is a Contributor Alumnus
LustrousPalkia said:
12:04 LustrousPalkia: issue i have with defogless arc on stall is that you have to outsource
12:04 LustrousPalkia: your defog
12:04 LustrousPalkia: to shitty defoggers
Remember, Defog isn't the only means of removing Hazards. There are sand builds that like RushDrill w/ Rapid Spin + Stone Edge > Defog Grassy. I have a couple of these if you want to look them over. The slashing makes sense to me as it is right now, but I'm not QC so my opinion doesn't really matter all that much. I am sure that there are builds that like RushDrill w/ Spin + EQ Grassy also, otherwise it wouldn't have become a thing in the first place with how much Defog hype there was during SPL.
 

PISTOLERO

I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
Remember, Defog isn't the only means of removing Hazards. There are sand builds that like RushDrill w/ Rapid Spin + Stone Edge > Defog Grassy. I have a couple of these if you want to look them over. The slashing makes sense to me as it is right now, but I'm not QC so my opinion doesn't really matter all that much. I am sure that there are builds that like RushDrill w/ Spin + EQ Grassy also, otherwise it wouldn't have become a thing in the first place with how much Defog hype there was during SPL.
WreckDra

I know that Spin + Grassceus can work well, what i was saying is that Defog Arceus is by far the most reliable way of dealing with hazards, and certain things that mandate Defog support such as Ho-Oh can't have crap Defoggers lik alongside them as they just aren't good enough to sustain the Defog - Scizor and Giratina are both crap, compared to Defogceus at least, and in terms of role compression it's nice to have defensive Arceus forme + Defog + even WoW in one teamslot. I know that SandDrill can work well on defensive builds, but you have to admit that Excadrill's defensive capabilities pale in comparison to Arceus's.


oh and sure, post a team like this, why not :).
 

Inspirited

There is usually higher ground.
is a Contributor Alumnus
LustrousPalkia
Here is the build I drummed up about 2 months ago now. It isn't exactly defensive but it isn't offensive either. It isn't optimised in the slightest seeing how I just wanted to drum up something around Megados quickly:

Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 16 Atk / 88 Spd / 156 Def / 248 HP
Adamant Nature
- Taunt
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Earthquake

Tyranitar @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Atk
Sassy Nature
- Payback
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock
- Pursuit

Xerneas @ Leftovers
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aromatherapy
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Moonblast

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Atk
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Gyro Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- Toxic
- King's Shield

Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
- Rapid Spin
- Iron Head

Arceus @ Meadow Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 112 Spd / 148 SDef
Timid Nature
- Grass Knot
- Stone Edge
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover

Here is a slight variation with LO Xern and Mega TTar:

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
Impish Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Taunt
- Waterfall
- Toxic

Tyranitar @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
- Payback
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock
- Low Kick

Xerneas @ Life Orb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Aromatherapy
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Moonblast

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Gyro Ball
- Pursuit
- Toxic
- King's Shield

Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
- Rapid Spin
- Iron Head

Arceus @ Meadow Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 112 Spd / 148 SDef
Timid Nature
- Grass Knot
- Will-O-Wisp
- Stone Edge
- Recover

there are a couple of stall builds that i have seen also, but I will have to wait until i get home to retrieve those.
 
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Manaphy

Throughout heaven and earth, I alone am family guy
is a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Unless Melee Mewtwo comes in here and gives me some good reasons for Judgement being there, I really don't see any reasons it should be slashed.
 
MMM I would use a different EV spread, like this one for example: 248 HP / 148 SDef / 112 Spd

The spread allows you to outspeed and therefor beat Garchomp, I know it sounds kinda dumb but you'd feel silly if you lost to that mon cus not enough speed. Also, I'd mention Heatran in Fire-types as it can completely wall Grasseus when they're carrying EQ.
 

Inspirited

There is usually higher ground.
is a Contributor Alumnus
Not QC but, should 160 Spe be mentioned somewhere to outrun base 108s? I mean, this is just about as irrelevant as Garchomp but it did mess up Level 56 in this battle at least:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-141152915
This wasn't the most serious battle ever, but Terrakion and Toxic Spikes were able to mess up Grasseus to the point of which Kyogre had an easy time sweeping. It is a based Terrakion set that (I mean Focus Sash wut?) but the inability to outspeed Terrak did lead to a Scarf Kyogre destroying the rest of the team members on 56's team.
 
I personally think you're giving away too much bulk to check Terrakion, when running 112 Spd EVs over 96 (which is what you need for outrunning Palkia), it doesn't make such a huge difference, refering to bulk of course, however, 162 Spd Evs > 96 just for a bad timed Terrakion, come on now. My point is that in comparison of trying to outspeed Garchomp you give away such little bulk but, when trying to outspeed Terrakion, you give away a lot of bulk to the point that, in my opinion, it's not worth it.
 
Just drop the speed down to 96, there isn't really any reason to outspeed the really rare chomp that you kinda wall anyway. There are some minor flaws here, let's just go through them:

- Due to these weaknesses, Arceus-Grass must be carefully built around when used, and may also have to sacrifice one of its support slots to run Earthquake or Stone Edge so that it can deal with its problems itself.
Don't thread around it like this- I know you mean Pursuit support when you put it this way, but it has to be explicit to the reader.

Stone Edge means that Arceus-Grass is no longer Ho-Oh and Yveltal bait - even with a Timid nature, Stone Edge deals upwards of 85% to max HP Ho-Oh, and does more than half to offensive Yveltal.
0- Atk Arceus-Grass Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Yveltal: 176-208 (44.7 - 52.9%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO not more than half

  • Another alternate spread to be a backup check to xerneas would be 252 hp / 240 SpD / 16 Speed with Calm nature, with a moveset of Grass Knot / Thunder Wave / Roar / Recover. This is however very slow and extremely vulnerable to most Steel-Types.
I mean no, this isn't an alternative really. You can use Calm nature with 56 speed with either Twave or Roar but not both, though.

But yeah otherwise it looks pretty nice so just do this and qc 1/3
 
Lustkia the main slashing for speed is still not updated to 96, fix pls or I will steal :D.
He had a convo on irc yesterday in which he was advised to just keep it at 112, I'm pretty sure. I still disagree because the bulk is important and "its mainly to creep other arceus" was mentioned as an argument but creep is not a thing, so idk. I mean if qc decided then that's it of course.
 
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