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itt: you explain stuff to me

Discussion in 'Archives' started by kd24, Nov 22, 2011.

  1. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    approved by oglemi

    ive been fixing errors that are onsite but a lot of them are more than just subjective changes and they are ones i dont understand - this is where i need you guys. basically, if i have a question, i would like you guys to answer "why" because some shit i dont understand in analysis and they either require explanation or need to be revised to be more efficient

    id really prefer other people not asking "why" for right now because i dont want this thread to become cluttered with people asking dumb questions that cant be answered - this thread is for things that arent really clear onsite. this doesnt apply to badgeholders who have free reign to comb over analysis, they are free to use this thread as well.

    i cant really say how many questions ill ask but expect them to be in this thread, youll earn some definite points with me if you can provide clear confident answers about what i ask. if anyone wants to go through analysis with me and find these sort of things, and you dont have a badge, pm me and i can work with you

    ill be starting with this:

    ---

    [SET]
    name: Tank
    move 1: Stealth Rock
    move 2: Gyro Ball
    move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Toxic
    move 4: Earthquake
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Levitate
    nature: Sassy
    evs: 252 HP / 84 Atk / 80 Def / 92 SpD
    ivs: 2 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With great defensive typing and bulk, Bronzong is one of the best users of Stealth Rock in OU. With this set, it has the ability to wall some of the most prominent threats in OU, such as Landorus. Gyro Ball is Bronzong's STAB move of choice and, due to its abysmal Speed, will generally deal major damage to the opponent's Pokemon. Hidden Power Ice is very useful since most of the threats Bronzong walls are weak to Ice-type attacks; specifically, Hidden Power Ice lets it destroy Landorus and Gliscor, to name a few. The last slot belongs to Earthquake and it helpfully prevents Bronzong from becoming setup bait for opposing Magnezone.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>When using this set, a Sassy nature with the aforementioned defensive EVs allow Bronzong to be a sturdy mixed wall, while not reducing its offensive potential. The 84 Attack EVs allow Bronzong to hit a bit harder and a Sassy nature (and 2 Speed IVs) reduces its Speed, powering up Gyro Ball. Levitate is by far the best option, granting an immunity to Ground-type attacks that would otherwise prevent Bronzong from walling the Sandstorm teams like it's supposed to.</p>

    <p>Heatproof can be used as a more gimmicky ability that can work since most opponents will leave their Fire-types in thinking they will OHKO, and Bronzong can take the attack and OHKO back. Hypnosis can be used instead of Earthquake on the last slot if one is using Bronzong on a team that isn't troubled by Magnezone, but its shaky accuracy will often let you down. Toxic is also an option to poison bulky walls that can switch in on Bronzong and wall it all day, such as Hippowdon, Vaporeon, and Jellicent; however, one must take into account that Bronzong will be hopeless against Steel-types.</p>

    <p>Since Bronzong has to come in multiple times to face the threats it's supposed to wall, Wish support is priceless to make up for the lack of reliable recovery; Vaporeon has great synergy with Bronzong and can pass giant Wishes while Bronzong takes the Grass-type attacks aimed at it. Bronzong's toughest opponents are Fire- and Fighting-type Pokemon, so having a teammate to check them is mandatory; Jellicent resists one of those types and is immune to the other, and thus is a very good teammate. It's also able to cripple the Steel-types with Will-O-Wisp if Bronzong isn't running Earthquake.</p>

    ---

    what is going on with the evs here? "hit a bit harder" is not an explanation when one of the most common things in pokemon is the wide array of dragon-type attacks going around - bronzong has a unique niche in resisting these and being immune to earthquake..so why are we taking from his defenses and putting them into attack?

    if theres a reason for this ev spread, please tell me so i can edit it into AC on why these evs are the way they are - if not, please suggest more a more viable ev spread
  2. Lemonade.

    Lemonade. fluffy bird
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    Based on damage calculations alone, 84 Atk EVs ensures Nidoking (lol) will be 2HKOed by Gyro Ball + Earthquake, and that 252 HP Tyranitar takes min 49.5%. From the threads it looks like the intention of Gyro Ball + EQ would be to have a chance to KO Balloon Excadrill, which is no longer relevant.

    IMO that warrants a spread change, unless anyone else has ideas as to what the EVs do.
  3. Nails

    Nails EAST 2014
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    84 Atk Bronzong Earthquake vs 4 HP/0 Def Heatran: 83.95% - 100%
    6.25% chance to OHKO

    for those who never have issues with luck
  4. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    not really seeing anything on bronzong 4 hp/0 def tran is rare enough to go for that small percentage chance lol

    in the meantime, what about this:


    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Outrage
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Brick Break
    move 4: Dragon Claw / Dual Chop
    item: Choice Band
    ability: Mold Breaker
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Haxorus and Choice Band go together like peanut butter and jelly, as it boosts Haxorus's already amazing Attack stat to an absurd 648. There are very few Pokemon that can claim to counter Choice Band Haxorus, as virtually everything gets at most 2HKOed by an appropriate attack. Even the bulkiest physical walls such as Hippowdon will be unable to keep up with Haxorus's onslaught, and since many Steel-types are 2HKOed by him as well, Haxorus is as close to "uncounterable" as they come.</p>

    <p>Earthquake complements Outrage well by nailing Steel-types, and thanks to Mold Breaker, Levitate users such as Bronzong, Gengar, Rotom-W, Latios, and Latias must think twice about switching in. Brick Break is almost exclusively for Ferrothorn, which doesn't take much damage from any of Haxorus's other moves, while Dragon Claw is a nice choice to hit something hard without being locked into Outrage. The listed EVs allow Haxorus to maximize its Attack while outpacing Dragonite, Heatran, and Rotom-W. The additional EVs are thrown into HP to slightly cushion oncoming attacks.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>In order to appreciate the sheer power of Choice Band Haxorus's Outrage, here are some damage calculations against some of the premier physical walls and Steel-types that resist it.</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculation">
    <li>Outrage vs. 252/184+ Gliscor: 64.69% - 76.27%</li>
    <li>Outrage vs. 252/252+ Hippowdon: 54.29% - 63.81%</li>
    <li>Outrage vs. 248/252+ Vaporeon: 75.16% - 88.77%</li>
    <li>Outrage vs. 252/0 Scizor: 51.45% - 60.47%</li>
    <li>Outrage vs. 252/48+ Ferrothorn: 34.94% - 40.91%</li>
    <li>Outrage vs. 252/0 Jirachi: 43.81% - 51.49%</li>
    <li>Outrage vs. 0/0 Heatran: 52.01% - 61.30%</li>
    </ul>

    <p>Haxorus's movepool is sparse, but Dual Chop and Rock Slide are worth considering over Dragon Claw. Dual Chop can be used to break opposing Substitutes, but its accuracy can be off-putting. Rock Slide lets Haxorus hit Gyarados and Zapdos without locking himself into Outrage, but they are still hit hard by Dragon Claw, and Rock Slide can give Steel-types free switches. Another option that should be considered is Rivalry. Although Mold Breaker is great when used with Earthquake, Rivalry can be used for an extra boost on a simulator because most Pokemon are male by default. The 25% increase in power is very significant considering Haxorus's amazing Attack. For example, with one layer of Spikes, Outrage will usually 2HKO the standard Relaxed Ferrothorn with the help of Rivalry.</p>

    <p>Although Haxorus is going to be hitting everything hard with Outrage, it still has troubles with the bane of most physical attackers: Skarmory. Skarmory can come in on any of Haxorus's attacks and proceed to Roost off the damage or set up Spikes thanks to its amazing Defense. Other than Skarmory, there aren't really any other true Haxorus counters. Bronzong, Ferrothorn, and defensive Jirachi are decent checks, but although they can usually take two Outrages, they will fall to a well-predicted Earthquake. Magnezone is one of the best partners for Haxorus because it can easily trap and kill most Steel-types with Magnet Pull. It also has solid synergy with Haxorus, since it can take Ice- and Dragon-type attacks aimed at the giant salamander. Haxorus is prone to being revenge killed by the likes of Mamoswine, Weavile, and Scizor thanks to their powerful priority attacks. A Scizor of your own can be helpful in this situation to take Ice Shards and Bullet Punches aimed at Haxorus. You also might want to consider pairing Haxorus with Pokemon that can take advantage of Haxorus's ability to KO most Steel-types and physical walls. Pokemon such as Latios will absolutely love having Ferrothorn, Scizor, and Heatran out of the picture so it can spam Draco Meteors with little to fear.</p>

    ---

    why are we not maxing speed? in the dd analysis (which uses the same spread), it says max speed could be used to get the jump on neutral base 95s and other haxorus .. it also gets the jump on max speed jolly gyara

    is this just another case of "trying to be fancy with evs" without real reason? if there isnt a significant reason to invest those in hp, then im just moving them to speed - if there is a reason like it survives a certain attack, please tell me so users arent scratching their heads at a seemingly useless ev spread
  5. Lemonade.

    Lemonade. fluffy bird
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    found the explanation from the thread here (some damage calcs for certain HP Haxorus's). And a link to the full thread here. In particular,
    obviously this was a bit outdated, but that was the original intention of the HP EVs it seems.
  6. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    k, thanks
  7. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    if anyone else wants to comment on zong nows a good time, otherwise im just gonna make a new spread myself

    speaking of spreads

    ---
    [SET]
    name: Physically Defensive
    move 1: Toxic Spikes
    move 2: Spikes
    move 3: Rapid Spin
    move 4: Earthquake / Volt Switch / Gyro Ball
    ability: Sturdy
    item: Leftovers / Shed Shell
    nature: Relaxed
    evs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD
    ivs: 0 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Physically defensive Forretress is capable of setting up and spinning away entry hazards against a myriad of neutral and resisted physical moves, including Outrage and Choiced Steel-type attacks. Toxic Spikes and Spikes are the two entry hazards of choice due to the wider distribution of Stealth Rock, and are both highly effective thanks to the high number of grounded threats in the metagame. Rapid Spin completes Forretress's trio of supporting moves, spinning away all opposing entry hazards. Earthquake can be used on the last slot, hitting some common Forretress switch-ins, such as Magnezone and Heatran, as well as other grounded Fire-types, for heavy damage. Gyro Ball allows Forretress to hit switch-ins such as Hydreigon and Landorus for reasonable damage, and finally, Volt Switch allows Forretress to escape trappers and gain momentum for its team.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Forretress's EV spread allows it to get the most out of its naturally solid defenses, giving it a significant amount of physical bulk. This allows Forretress to take on a wide variety of physical attacks, while the Special Defense helps in taking weaker special attacks. An alternate spread of 252 HP / 112 Atk / 144 Def is also viable if one chooses Earthquake for the last slot, netting an OHKO on opposing Heatran and Magnezone after Stealth Rock damage. However, Air Balloon Heatran will still be able to switch in safely on Forretress, even if Earthquake is being used. In addition, if one of the listed entry hazards is unneeded, a second attacking move can replace it to complement Forretress's type coverage. However, Forretress's main goal is usually to set up hazards rather than to attack directly. Finally, Shed Shell is a good alternative to Leftovers due to the prevalence of trappers such as Magnezone, whereas the latter grants Forretress significantly more staying power.</p>

    <p>Because Forretress's limited attacking options are rather weak, it's set-up fodder for many Pokemon. Kingdra, Gyarados, and bulkier Salamence are all capable of coming in against Forretress thanks to their natural bulk and, in the case of Salamence and Gyarados, Intimidate it, allowing them to set up easily. Also, the attacking move Forretress is running will determine which Pokemon can set up on it. Without Gyro Ball, for instance, Terrakion and Landorus, as well as other sweepers immune to Ground-type attacks, can set up on Forretress with ease. If Forretress lacks Earthquake, then Nasty Plot and Swords Dance Lucario, as well as Magnezone, other grounded Steel-types, and assorted Fire-types have a field day against it. Finally, Heatran, Chandelure, and essentially anything with a Fire-type attack is capable of either KOing or knocking a tremendous dent in Forretress. In general, anything with a strong special STAB attack is capable of tearing out a massive chunk of Forretress's HP.</p>

    <p>Forretress pairs well with Pokemon that can handle its crippling Fire weakness, as well as take hits from all the special attackers that plague it. Tyranitar can deal with Heatran, Chandelure, and Magnezone, and easily switch in on special attacks due to sandstorm increasing its Special Defense. It can also eliminate spinblockers and Magic Bounce Pokemon, allowing Forretress to spin and set up entry hazards more easily. Jellicent and Vaporeon are also great teammates as the former is one of the best spinblockers in OU and the latter can pass Wish to Forretress to make up for its lack of reliable recovery. Defensive Gyarados also pairs well with Forretress, eliminating some troubling sweepers that set up on it, such as Swords Dance Lucario. Finally, Blissey and Chansey can take hits from special attackers such as Heatran, pairing with Forretress to form a pseudo-SkarmBliss combination, walling a huge number of threats.</p>
    ---

    is the special defense useful for anything? im going to probably redo some set comments because seriously, earthquake? order should be volt switch/gyro ball/MAYBE EQ (aside from me personally changing that, any answer for the seemingly random sdef would be nice, so i can either add it in or just max defense and hp)
  8. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    I agree, kd24 - those 80 EVs can definitely go into its Defense, or more practically, its Attack, since it's so pitiful (it doesn't even OHKO Terrakion with Gyro Ball iirc).
  9. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
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    Choice Specs Latios does 64.68 - 76.27% to that spread so it's definitely not to survive two Draco Meteors, lol
    It does stop Rotom-W from 2HKOing with Volt Switch...
    I honestly don't see those EVs helping much at all. The only reason that 176 Defense is run is to hit the jump point and get an extra point in Defense.
  10. AccidentalGreed

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    http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/jellicent

    I'd like somebody to explain why Jellicent should use Surf outside of "more power" (on the standard set) when other bulky Water-types have Scald recommended as the sole STAB, and the power output is arguably negligible in many situations. What major targets is Surf required for rather than Scald?
  11. jc104

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    On certain stall teams, it can be of great disadvantage to burn the wrong pokemon. Since Jelly is more common on stall than most other bulky waters, Surf might be an option.

    That's the best reasoning I can think of.
  12. Woodchuck

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    Surf vs Standard Gliscor: 64.4 - 76.27%
    Scald vs Standard Gliscor: 54.23 - 64.4%

    Surf can help to stop SD Gliscor from screwing you over, basically.
  13. NatGeo

    NatGeo kauai
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    hey just a thought, do you think we should add reasoning for this kinda stuff onsite? vis-a-vis explanations are put in an analysis-friendly format or a sentence and put into the analysis for that Pokemon - that way we won't have anyone ask it again and say we don't have any proof onsite. If that makes sense.

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