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Jellicent (QC 0/3)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Sturdynips, Jan 30, 2014.

  1. Sturdynips

    Sturdynips
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    Based 'stache
    QC:
    GP:


    Overview
    ########
    • Great defensive typing lets it check pokemon such as Ice Punch Lucario, Jirachi, Keldeo, and Scizor.
    • Good HP and Special Defense
    • Great ability(s)
    • Access to reliable recovery and useful utility moves such as Will-o-wisp and Taunt
    • Role as a spinblocker is largely downsized due to defog
    • Because spinblocking isn't as valuable, Jellicent faces competition from Rotom-W
    • Is threatened by common offensive Pokemon such as Thundurus, Aegislash, Mega Charizard X.

    Utility
    ########
    name: Utility
    move 1: Will-O-Wisp
    move 2: Scald / Shadow Ball
    move 3: Recover
    move 4: Taunt
    ability: Water Absorb
    item: Leftovers
    evs: 248 HP / 172 Def / 88 Spe
    nature: Bold

    Moves
    ========
    • Will-O-Wisp is excellent for crippling physical attackers and getting nice residual damage on things. It also goes well with Jellicent's naturally good special bulk
    • Scald is a reliable STAB with a high 30% burn chance. Surf is an option for a power increase, but generally inferior
    • Shadow Ball is an option with great neutral coverage if Scald is undesired
    • Recover is mandatory for longevity
    • Taunt shuts down defensive Pokemon who seek to set up entry hazards or use status moves, and allows Jellicent to often beat these Pokemon 1v1.
    • Ice Beam has use to hit Grass-types and Dragons super effectively

    Set Details
    ========
    • Given EV spread minimizes Stealth Rock damage and emphasizes physical bulk. Speed EVs are to outrun CB ttar, Belly Drum Azumarill, Defensive Politoed, CB Scizor, and Skarmory.
    • Water Absorb is the ability of choice for the Water-type immunity, though Cursed Body can be effective against Pokemon who have only one move to damage Jellicent with, such as Starmie or Lucario.
    • Leftovers for handy healing.
    • Bold nature for maximum defense investment.

    Usage Tips
    ========
    • Use this set to check common Physical attackers such as Azumarill, Scizor, and Excadrill
    • Be wary that many of the Pokemon that Jellicent checks can carry moves to severely damage it with. eg Scizor's Knock Off and Azumarill's Play Rough. You should be suitably cautious in these situations.
    • Jellicent is prone to being trapped by Pursuit, especially from Tyranitar. As such, if the opponent has a healthy TTar it is often a good idea to expect it to come in and use Will-O-Wisp, especially if you are not running any Speed EVs.
    • Use Taunt as much as is wise when you face defensive Pokemon to prevent them from setting up entry hazards, and, importantly, stop them from inflicting status. Be wary against certain opponents, however. Taunting a Ferrothorn to block Spikes or Leech Seed is not always a good option, as Power Whip will deal heavy damage.
    • Will-O-Wisp should also be heavily used, especially on expected switches to cripple physical threats and wear down special ones.

    Team Options
    ========
    • Jellicent is best used as a pivot or wall on defensive or balanced teams.
    • Grass-types are great partners to cover Jellicent's Grass- and Electric-type weaknesses. Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn are excellent choices. In return, Jellicent can take Fire- and Ice-type attacks.
    • Skarmory and Forretress can lay down entry hazards on the opponent's side of the field, and take Grass-type attacks with ease. Jellicent can switch into Fire-type moves for them. They also can clear entry hazards with Defog and Rapid Spin, which Jellicent appreciates.
    • Assault Vest Conkeldurr is a decent partner to check opposing Tyranitar and Thundurus

    Specially Defensive
    ########
    name: Specially Defensive
    move 1: Scald
    move 2: Recover
    move 3: Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
    move 4: Shadow Ball / Ice Beam
    ability: Water Absorb
    item: Leftovers
    evs: 248 HP / 172 SpD / 88 Spe
    nature: Calm

    Moves
    ========
    • Scald is STAB with nice burn chance
    • Recover for longevity
    • Will-O-Wisp works excellently with Jellicent's high Special Defense and cripples physical attackers
    • Toxic is an option for foes that don't fear w-o-w, such as Volcarona and Mega Charizard X
    • Shadow Ball is also STAB and has great neutral coverage while hitting Latios, Aegislash, and Gengar super effectively.
    • Ice Beam is a decent choice to target Grass- and Dragon-types.
    • Taunt works well to cripple defensive Pokemon such as Skarmory

    Set Details
    ========
    • EVs and Calm nature emphasise special bulk. Speed EVs are to outpace the same as prev. set (TTar, Scizor, BellyJet Azumarill, Skarmory, and Politoed)
    • Water Absorb is preferred to provide an immunity, though Cursed Body is viable
    • Leftovers for healing

    Usage Tips
    ========
    • Use specially defensive Jellicent to check specially-oriented threats such as Keldeo, Manaphy, and Latias
    • Be aware that several special attackers carry Psyshock which targets Jellicent's lower special defense. Examples include Latios, Alakazam, and Starmie.
    • Remember that because Jellicent has an average Defense stat and this set runs no Defense investment, Jellicent will struggle to be even somewhat effective against physical threats. Staying in to use will-o-wisp against such Pokemon may not always be wise, as they could get off a heavy hit. It is usually best to try and burn such Pokemon as they switch in.
    • This set is extremely vulnerable to Pursuit users due to the lack of defensive investment. Will-o-Wisp can remedy this to a certain extent, but be aware that even if you cripple the opposing Pursuit user (usually ttar) it can still do a sizeable amount, which means Jellicent will often fall to the special attackers it is meant to be switching into.

    Team Options
    ========
    • Best used on defensive or balanced teams as a special wall.
    • Teammates that can handle physical threats are good partners. Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn can do this while providing excellent type synergy.
    • Defensive Skarmory and Forretress can lay down entry hazards on the opponent's side of the field, and take Grass-type attacks from the likes of Breloom with ease. Jellicent can switch into Fire-type moves for them. They also can clear entry hazards with Defog and Rapid Spin, which Jellicent appreciates.
    • Pokemon who can deal with Tyranitar and Bisharp are excellent choices. Conkeldurr and Lucario work well on balanced teams, while Hippowdon is a good choice on defensive teams.

    Other Options
    ########
    • Offensive Water Spout
    • Energy Ball for Gastrodon and Quagsire
    • Trick Room
    • Magic Coat
    • Trick
    • Confuse Ray

    Checks & Counters
    ########
    **Grass-types**: Celebi and Mega Venusaur take little from any move and deal heavy damage in return. Celebi doesn't fear Toxic or Burn thanks to Natural Cure. Breloom can KO with Bullet Seed, though it is ruined by a timely Burn. Ferrothorn easily takes any attack, but hates Scald's burn chance and is crippled by w-o-w.

    **Electric-types**: Thundurus and Thundurus-T can smash Jellicent with Thunderbolt, though they don't like switching into a potential burn.

    **Dark-Types and Pursuit**: Ttar fears a burn, but can still do significant damage with Pursuit if Jellicent switches; Scarf sets outrun Jellicent and hit hard with Crunch. Bisharp can also use Pursuit, though generally it will OHKO with Knock Off.

    **Ghost Types**: Aegislash and Gengar threaten Jellicent with their STAB attacks while not fearing Toxic. They take hefty damage from Shadow Ball, though.

    **Substitute users**: Pokemon who can set up a Sub that Jellicent cannot break are good checks. Kyurem-B and Gyarados are good examples here.

    **Status**: Toxic in particular ruins Jellicent. Users that can outrun Taunt such as Poison Heal Gliscor, and Heatran.

    **Knock Off**: Several Pokemon that Jellicent is called upon to check can deal significant damage and remove Jellicent's leftovers in one stroke. Scizor and Donphan in particular.

    **Entry hazards**: Jellicent is vulnerable to all forms of hazards, which wear it down and greatly hinder it from doing its job.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
  2. Unowninator

    Unowninator

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    Why use both Will-o-wisp AND Scald?
  3. Srn9130

    Srn9130 I use Focus Punch like I do my women: Unprotected!
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    Because neither are reliable. You COULD run toxic over WoW, but I guess that's preference.
  4. Sturdynips

    Sturdynips
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    Still doing some testing but i'll open this up to QC
  5. dice

    dice RAP GAME GiTTARACKUR
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    at least use enough speed to outspace skarm... that's very important.

    this thing lost so much viability lol idk if its even worth using
  6. Srn9130

    Srn9130 I use Focus Punch like I do my women: Unprotected!
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    Jellicent was cool for being able to outspeed defensive politoed, taunt it before you got toxic'd, and then WoW the switch-in.
    I agree with dice, I think you should atleast try to outspeed base 70s.
    That's 88 evs into speed btw.
  7. Swamp Link

    Swamp Link Yum
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    Shadow Ball isn't more powerful than Scald, but it does have better neutral coverage, so change that reason.
  8. Sturdynips

    Sturdynips
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    Done, thanks

    I did have that benchmark in Set Details already, for TTar and Azumarill. At the moment TTar and Azumarill are better to outrun than Toed, but thanks for the advice, I've added a mention of Toed in.

    Good spot, my bad on that one
  9. BlazingToads64

    BlazingToads64

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    Jellicent also has a wide special movepool consisting of Water Spout, Shadow Ball, Giga Drain, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, Sludge Bomb/wave, Psychic and Dazzling Gleam. Sadly that is only backed up by a mediocre base 80 SpA. But thanks to Choice Specs and EVs it can still do a solid amount of damage.
  10. Sturdynips

    Sturdynips
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    An offensive set is listed in Other Options. For the moment I really can't see it being successful at all, as there are far better offensive Water-types like Keldeo or Manaphy, and Jellicent has a really nice defensive typing and decent defensive stats
  11. Sturdynips

    Sturdynips
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    Bumping this as it has been languishing on page 3
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
  12. Jukain

    Jukain fuck macle
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    Okay. I thought about this for a while, and I'm sorry, but I'm going to reject Jellicent. As Dice said, it's lost a lot of viability this gen, such that it isn't really worth using. There are a few reasons as to why it has fallen in effectiveness.

    1) The demand for bulky Waters on stall has gone down to the point of elimination. There's really only one bulky Water-type seen semi-commonly on stall, and that's Quagsire, which isn't even that good and is used for an ultra-specific niche. Certain things like Vaporeon are viable on semi-stall teams and stuff, but stall doesn't run bulky Water-types much in this day and age. Jellicent was primarily a stall mon last gen; when stall no longer wants it, it's already lost a lot of effectiveness.

    2) The demand for spinblockers has gone down due to Defog. What teams run spinblockers nowadays? Hyper offense, and that's so Excadrills don't just waltz in and eliminate their hazards. The only spinner that's really good in OU is Excadrill, and Jellicent loses to it after it has switched into Stealth Rock twice (2HKOed by Adamant Earthquake), or has taken SR + 1 layer of Spikes. The fact that it isn't even an amazing spinblocker means that if for whatever weird reason you wanted a spinblocker, it's not even reliable at the job.

    3) OU's top threats utterly demolish it. I went through the viability rankings to determine which threats Jellicent could beat. Link for reference.
    • S Rank: Everything utterly demolishes it. It's even setup fodder for Mega Charizard X. 5/5 Pokemon it loses to.
    • A+ Rank: It outright loses to 7/10 Pokemon. The questionables are Deoxys-S, Heatran, and Landorus-T. It dies to SR + Knock Off + EQ from defensive Landorus-T. For Deoxys-S, it depends on the variant. The flat hazard lead set is hardly even good (SR / Spikes / Taunt / filler), so I'm just going to talk about the SR LO and all-out LO sets. If it carries Knock Off (which many are beginning to do), Jellicent will die to Knock Off + SR + Psycho Boost. Even just LO Psycho Boost has a high chance to 2HKO after SR (the rolls have to be 2.5% above min damage combined, which is rare not to occur). Heatran it beats. 9/10 Pokemon in A+ Rank beat it.
    • A Rank: It outright loses to 11/18 Pokemon. The questionables are (Mega) Gyarados, Keldeo, Latias, Latios, Mandibuzz, Scizor, and Terrakion. It beats standard Gyarados (Mega w/o Bite) but loses to Mega w/ Bite and non-Mega SubDD. We'll call it a win for Jellicent. Keldeo is another win. It loses to Life Orb Latias. 2 Dracos + SR has a high chance to KO. Psyshock + Draco + SR KOes. Thunderbolt 2HKOes. The loss to Latios is even more pronounced, as Thunderbolt does ~65% and Draco does ~70% (average rolls). Mandibuzz is tricky for it. Knock Off does ~40%, forcing it to Recover and making it much easier to wear down due to the lack of Leftovers. Scald does ~20% to Mandibuzz. The 1v1 matchup comes down to stalling, but Mandibuzz definitely cripples Jellicent. Overall, Jellicent loses much more than Mandibuzz here. It beats non-Knock Off Scizor and can generally switch into it pretty decently, especially common Defog variants. It's a win for Jellicent. Finally, Terrakion easily 2HKOes with CB/LO Stone Edge -- Jellicent loses. That brings us to a grand total of 15/18 Pokemon in A Rank that beat it.
    Based on this analysis (a couple calls could change slightly, but not enough to sway the result), Jellicent loses to almost all of the top-tier threats in OU. It can't even handle any of the S Rank sweepers/attackers, which might give it a niche in OU. Losing to so many threats makes Jellicent a liability and overall poor choice in XY OU. It isn't bulky enough to keep up with the massive amount of threats that just murder it. Thus,

    QC Rejected 1/3
  13. Sturdynips

    Sturdynips
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    Jukain You're right about Jellicent's viability being questionable. However, just a couple of things in its defense:

    It's ranked higher than Vaporeon and Gastrodon on the viability rankings, both of whom received analyses. Sure, it's possible that it is in the wrong tier there, but for the moment the point stands. Speaking of Gastro and Vaporeon, maybe it comes down to my opinion but generally speaking I would use Jellicent ahead of Gastrodon nearly every time, and would use it over Vaporeon unless I had a pressing need for a Cleric/Wishpasser that wasn't Chansey. I feel as though Taunt makes Jellicent usable; it allows Jelli to beat many defensive pokemon 1v1, particularly Chansey and Skarmory.

    There's no doubt that Jellicent struggles, but I still think it is viable enough for an analysis at this point.
  14. Namso

    Namso
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    Yeah, I still think it has some viability as well. Its typing is pretty neat for a bulky Water and it has access to a few key tools that differentiate itself from its counterparts, such as Taunt, a more accurate Will-O-Wisp, and Recover. I don't think people should be using Jellicent specifically because it spinblocks, but because it can take advantage of those tools rather decently. Spinblocking is just a byproduct of its use. Thus, I'm still open to giving it an analysis.
  15. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Unless someone good can vouch for it and give us some explanation as to what Jellicent's role is in the metagame, i don't think it's viable.

    QC Rejected 2/3

    I would give a few days to the OP though, if he wants to find and post some logs that showcase Jellicent's usefulness in the metagame.
  16. Mitchhhhhh

    Mitchhhhhh

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    What with Keldeo running HP Flying/Bug now for the most part wouldn't that make Jelli the best Keldeo Check/Counter? Not sure that's enough for an OU analysis but not too many things can switch into specs Keldeo and be completely safe.
  17. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Jellicent, IMO, has way too many issues in the current metagame. It is too prone to Pursuit (WoW / Scald helps but it only helps so much) and its typing isnt really that wanted in stall teams. It isnt bad, but I really dont see the merit to using Jellicent this generation.

    I am going to say this - unless the OP has logs to convince me...

    I am also rejecting it.

    QC REJECTED 3/3

    I will leave this topic open for a few days to provide logs (if Sturdynips wants to).
  18. Sturdynips

    Sturdynips
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    I've always been slightly iffy on Jellicent so I can understand the reasons behind the rejections.
    Sorry Mr Pringles

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