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Jynx (Anti-Lead)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by FlareBlitz, Jul 27, 2010.

  1. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    STATUS:Ready for Upload!

    Jynx's awesome current analysis page which was written by a cool and attractive person

    I've been testing this set over the past few days and it has performed beyond my expectations, so I'm posting it in QC to get it uploaded and to further spread the Gospel Of The Lady.

    [SET]
    name: Anti-Lead
    move 1: Lovely Kiss
    move 2: Ice Beam
    move 3: Grass Knot / Psychic
    move 4: Nasty Plot / Taunt
    item: Focus Sash
    nature: Timid
    evs; 252 SpA /4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [Set Comments]
    <p>Jynx is the second fastest Pokemon in UU with a reliable sleep-inducing move, and her offensive capabilities and support options allow her to function as an effective anti-lead. Lovely Kiss is the main merit of this set, allowing Jynx to disable bulky leads, like Uxie and Mespirit, both of whom few Pokemon can immediately KO; this prevents them from executing their strategy while giving you time to execute your own.</p>

    <p>Ice Beam is the primary option for an attacking move due to its excellent neutral coverage. Grass Knot's main purpose is for OHKOing Cloyster, Kabutops, and Omastar, as well as for doing substantial damage to Milotic and Blastoise. Psychic is useful for getting quick kills on Hariyama and Qwilfish, while also letting you hit Arcanine very hard. The final slot depends on the general function that Jynx needs to fulfill. Nasty Plot allows Jynx to immediately place great pressure on opposing teams, forcing them to reveal more Pokemon and putting Jynx in a position to do major damage to key Pokemon like Milotic and Houndoom. However, note that even at +2 Special Attack, several Pokemon can still wall Jynx depending on the offensive moves you choose to run, which allows them to set up on or KO her. For instance, Registeel can switch in after the opposing lead absorbs sleep and takes next to no damage from Psychic, Ice Beam, or Grass Knot. It can then set up Stealth Rock, start spreading paralysis with Thunder Wave, or start using Curse. However, Taunt allows Jynx to stop such setup from occuring. In addition, Jynx is faster than or ties with every user of Stealth Rock in the tier, barring the rare Dugtrio, making her effective at preventing entry hazards. Taunt is also useful to prevent any switch-ins that she cannot hurt from setting up in her face.</p>

    [Additional Comments]

    <p>As mentioned above, Ice Beam is the best option for a primary attack since it has amazing coverage in UU. However, Focus Blast, Shadow Ball, and any other move slashed in as an alternative are all viable options over Ice Beam. Focus Blast allows Jynx to take on Registeel, while Shadow Ball allows Jynx to more efficiently dispose of Uxie and Mesprit. If Ice Beam is replaced with a move option that was slashed in on another slot, Jynx becomes more optimized for leading but less so for the mid game.</p>

    <p>Lum Berry can be used in place of Focus Sash to guarantee that an unlucky Lovely Kiss miss does not result in Jynx being paralyzed by the likes of Uxie or Mespirit. It also lets you defeat Jumpluff and other sleep-inducing leads who are employing Choice Scarf. However, the use of Lum Berry requires the user to be much more careful when using Jynx, as most physical attacks will outright KO her without a Focus Sash.</p>

    <p>This Jynx can also be used with Choice Scarf as the item. If using Choice Scarf, Trick becomes an invaluable move, and should be used over Nasty Plot/Taunt. In addition, Focus Blast becomes the most viable secondary attacking move despite its poor accuracy, since it OHKOes Ambipom, Cloyster, and Omastar. Choice Scarf allows Jynx to incapacitate even Scarf Uxie before it can use Stealth Rock, making her one of the most reliable anti-leads in the tier; however, the cost is a significant loss in versatility compared to using Focus Sash.</p>

    <p>Counter can be used in the final slot, as it enables Jynx to get surprise KOs on Arcanine and any leads who attempt to U-turn to one of her counters. However, note that Spiritomb, one of the most popular counters to Jynx, is immune to Counter. Many of the Pokemon who would be seeking to wall Jynx are also specially inclined. Moreover, without the added power of Nasty Plot or the ability to Taunt the opposition, Jynx does not pose much of an threat to opposing leads once Counter has been revealed.</p>

    <p>Fake Out is an option in the final slot as Jynx's only form of priority. It eliminates the Focus Sash of leads such as Qwilfish, Cloyster, and Scyther, while allowing you to block slower users of Fake Out, such as Hariyama. However, Jynx's attack is pathetic, so Fake Out's use is very specific to beating those particular leads. Protect is another option along these lines, allowing you to beat Ambipom and scout moves from possible Choice Scarf leads, but like Fake Out, it has little use otherwise.</p>

    <p>When used in the lead slot, Jynx functions best on a team dedicated to abusing the lack of early-game entry hazards. Powerful scouters, such as Scyther, and Stealth Rock-weak sweepers, such as Moltres and Arcanine, will very much appreciate the lack of entry hazards. Pokemon who are walled by Omastar, Uxie, and other bulky leads will have an infinitely easier time attempting a sweep once Jynx cripples those leads. Jynx's ability to scout and weaken the opposing team also helps dangerous but easily-walled endgame sweepers, such as Dragon Dance Feraligatr and Swords Dance Leafeon.</p>

    <p>Ideally, Jynx should be paired with Pokemon who are able to take advantage of the leads she typically loses to. Spiritomb, for instance, can easily switch in on Ambipom and Pursuit it, start spreading burns, or set up with Calm Mind. It can also switch in easily on uncommon Hariyama variants who carry both Fake Out and Bullet Punch. Rhyperior and Donphan use Registeel as set up bait, and even sweepers such as Moltres and physical Venusaur can safely come in if Jynx has Taunted Registeel beforehand. Houndoom can easily set up on any Spiritomb lead lacking Hidden Power Fighting, while Toxicroak can set up on any Spiritomb lacking Will-O-Wisp and Psychic.</p>
  2. timetwister

    timetwister

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    Looks interesting, but just curious, have you tried Counter? Jynx's poor defense would seem to lend itself to a lot of physical counters, so Counter seems like it may work, though, you'd have to use Sash instead of Lum.
  3. breh

    breh ⁰ ゝ⁰
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    Seems like this would do better IMO

    [SET]
    name: Anti-Lead
    move 1: Lovely Kiss
    move 2: Ice Beam
    move 3: Grass Knot
    move 4: Protect/Taunt
    item: Focus Sash/Lum Berry
    nature: Timid
    evs; 252 SpA/4 SpD/252 Spe

    If you look, Psychic isn't doing anything that ice beam can't do against all of those leads bar quilfish (who's relatively uncommon anyway and as you say, slept due to to higher base speed) and hariyama (who is dealt with.. somewhat well with protect if you're running sash (does Bullet Punch OHKO?)). Thus, I don't really feel that it deserves a slash.

    Otherwise, the point of a lead is not to start a sweep (nor will Jynx do so this early in the game, due to its terrible defense (and thus vulnerability to Mach Punch and the occasional AJ from random stuff (Hitmons and Azumarril for instance)) and while focus blast does have lategame utility, usually lategame jynx will be dead

    Anyway looks like a cool set... the even matchup with Uxie is a bit troubling though :/

    Oh and you forgot quite a few leads... snover, hippopotas, butterfree, venomoth, jumpluff, electrode, and the nidos (Nidoking really)

    Weather leads are easily beaten with 2 turn sleeps (well snover is beaten anyway)
    if Butterfree is scarfed, lose, if not win
    Venomoth is the same
    Jumpluff outspeeds but can't really do much... must rely on long sleeps to succesfully sub up (and no misses of course)
    Electrode gets up rain.. so technically it wins (easy, easy win if it's one of those stupid taunt but no RD leads)
    Nidoking loses
  4. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    Timetwister, I'm not a fan of Counter. Jynx is either going to be putting things to sleep (i.e. counter is useless) or attacking off its excellent special attack, which will 2hko the vast majority of physically inclined Pokemon anyway. If you'd like to playtest Counter and let me know if it's successful, I'll make a mention in AC, but for now I'm leaving it out. Thank you for the suggestion, however.

    As for your suggestions breludicolo, Protect lets you beat Ambipom but isn't good for much else. Ambipom is easily handled by other team members, so imo prioritizing something like Hariyama, which can hit retardedly hard and has great bulk, and Qwilfish, which can set up a layer or two on you since you only 3hko, is advisable. Taunt is certainly useful, which is why I have it slashed in, but it's not necessarily the best option. Psychic is mostly there for you to have something to hit Arcanine; LeadCanine is rare, but Arcanine is one of the first initial switch-ins to Jynx. It's also that good for Azumarill and Lanturn and other light waters. In my playtesting I've found that the moves I included in the OP were the most effective, but if you playtest this and get different results let me know :)
  5. Thund91

    Thund91

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    Yeah I'm sure Heysup (and others) could vouch about how I lolwtfpwnt with a Protect/Counter Jynx lead. Protect/Counter/Lovely Kiss/Ice Beam is the set. It needs a mention somewhere.
  6. franky

    franky
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    I'm going to say that I've played this lead the other day while laddering with this FlareAlt character (who is really annoying by the way with all the gimmicks). This is a fantastic set I suppose, very annoying to face early in the game as it fishes out a lot of members on your opponent's team. (Probably due to the fear of taking Sleep + going to a counter). This also makes use of Jynx's lack of resistance and defensive prowess to switch into stuff, so it would make sense to slap it in the lead slot. my only two cents:

    -add something that works with luring stuff. i mean this is probably luring in milotic, tomb, or registeel most of the time. as such, pairing it with mismagius can work wonders for you. it can benefit from either a sleeping counter or a severely damaged counter. either way, it is benefiting from this. the biggest drawback with missy is taking it out due to the fear of tomb in the wings, and jynx draws it in nicely anyways so consider missy for a partner.

    -at the moment, it seems slashitis-ish. c&c generally likes to lean away from the massive amount of slash.

    [SET]
    name: Anti-Lead
    move 1: Lovely Kiss
    move 2: Ice Beam
    move 3: Grass Knot
    move 4: Taunt / Nasty Plot
    item: Focus Sash
    nature: Timid
    evs; 252 SpA / 4 SpD /252 Spe

    - i think this version is more refined. remove focus blast because it really did not do anything significant on this particular set against other leads. mention it in ac though to provide some mid-game ass wooping coverage. taunt / nasty plot seems like the best slash. the last slot is normally twofold: sweep or stop. the latter being more useful if you really need those pesky rocks off the field, while the former is needed if you want to be aggressive and damage stuff early in the game. removed lum berry as well because sash is 100 times more useful. nothing in the tier will sleep jynx when you consider its high speed.
  7. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    Quick nitpick:

    Jumpluff is the fastest, I believe. Should probably change "Fast Pokemon with reliable Sleep Talk while being able to threaten the opposition offensively".
  8. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    Thanks for the input guys. Making these changes:

    - Mentioning Protect in AC for Ambipom, Counter for trolling

    - 2nd fastest sleeper (thanks shrang)

    - Removing Focus Blast, moving to AC. Removing Lum slash. I'm not removing Psychic though, beating Hariyama and Qwilfish is worth the slash, especially considering you still 2hko Omastar most of the time.

    - Also added stuff about it luring things and crippling them
  9. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    Bump. Any other suggestions? If not we can stamp this and I'll get started on the analysis proper.
  10. Stellar

    Stellar
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    Lead Mesprit and Uxie with Thunder Wave are still common enough that Lum Berry should be slashed. I see no reason to remove it.
  11. Thund91

    Thund91

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    I see no reason for Nasty Plot; this is a lead, so it's not meant to be sweeping. With a 3rd move like Psychic or Counter it increases the variety of leads you're able to beat.

    Also, without Protect you lose to lead Hariyama because it commonly runs Fake Out, doesn't matter if you run Psychic.
  12. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    Stellar, that's kinda what I was thinking. I'll probably keep them both slashed and mention that Focus Sash is generally the superior option, thanks.

    Thund, Lead Hariyama doesn't beat you unless it runs Fake Out and Bullet Punch (which I have never seen, ever).

    Nasty Plot is there to place pressure on your opponent and force him to reveal a lot of his team early. Taunt is slashed in if the user would rather guarantee that rocks don't go down from something like Registeel after it switches in once sleep clause is active. I'm not including Counter as a main option, I already have it AC and it's not good enough to merit a main slash. I have Psychic in there over Grass Knot and I mention in the comments that the last slot can have anything that wasn't chosen in previous slots, so that covers that.

    Anyway, if that's all...

    [​IMG]

    whistle edit: APPROVED 2/2 and moved
  13. franky

    franky
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    i'm still all for the removal of lum berry. uxie + mesprit with wave are easily immobilized with fast sleep. i doubt uxie runs 252 spe anyways. in any event they do outpace you (if they are carrying a scarf), they will most likely u-turn. with focus sash, you can secure yourself survival from surprise u-turn mesprit leads instead of dying from u-turn when carrying the lum berry. focus sash is probably 100x more important considering its frailty and poor typing. jynx just needs to be heavily reliant with that lovely kiss accuracy that's it.
  14. Thund91

    Thund91

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    Actually Fake Out + Bullet Punch is very common on LeadYama. Sometimes one or the other is replaced with Ice Punch but I still don't think Jynx "wins" against LeadYama at all.
  15. Eo Ut Mortus

    Eo Ut Mortus Elodin Smells
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    Late input:

    -I believe Nasty Plot is pretty useful because Jynx lacks a lot of power otherwise. This is really important because you're really vulnerable to a Spiritomb revenge kill otherwise, and it's much harder to get past Milotic.

    -Focus Sash is in my opinion way more useful than Lum Berry, whose utility is restricted to mid-game / fast Uxie / Uxie or Mesprit if Lovely Kiss misses. Worthy of a mention at least, but I don't know about a slash - it's not that big of a deal, though.

    -Biggest problem I've run into when using this is definitely Registeel.

    -I see a lot of LeadYama with Fake Out and Bullet Punch.

    | Hariyama | Move | Bullet Punch | 44.1 |
    | Hariyama | Move | Ice Punch | 33.4 |
    | Hariyama | Move | Fake Out | 25.8 |

    You can't really tell what the norm is from the stats, but I would say that it's reasonably common. I would rather just handle it with another Pokemon than attempt to handle it with Jynx, though.
  16. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    All right. Will be making these changes (thanks for not giving any input whoostle you big jerk):

    -Move Lum Berry to AC.
    -Mention Registeel as a common switch-in after sleep clause, suggestion Rhyperior, Torterra, and Donphan (especially on a team reliant on not having hazards) as teammates. Also mention that Taunt helps prevent any sort of set up from it.
    -Mention that even if you run Psychic you lose to fake out -> bullet punch yama

    I'm not going to be making these changes to the skeleton since I'll be writing up the actual analysis soon anyway, but they'll show up in the final product. Thanks guys.
  17. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    OP updated with the write-up. I'm pretty sure I mentioned everything that people brought up. Ready for proof-reading!
  18. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    Bumping this, still needs its grammar checks.
  19. Banedon

    Banedon

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    Some thoughts and fixes.
  20. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    Thank you Bandeon. Made many of your changes.

    Regarding the sentence you were confused about, I re-worded it and hopefully it is clearer now. Essentially I'm saying that the user can choose move options that are slashed in on other slots and replace Ice Beam. i.e. Psychic is slashed in with Grass Knot, so if the user picks Grass Knot he may also elect to replace Ice Beam with Psychic. This allows Jynx to function as a more efficient lead, but it loses a substantial amount of midgame utility due to losing Ice Beam's coverage. If you or anyone else can come up with a better way of phrasing this I will gladly include it.
  21. Snorlaxe

    Snorlaxe 2 kawaii 4 u
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    just wondering, but why is there a seperate team options section in this analysis? isn't this just the write-up of a set ?_?

    pink is grammar edits
    blue is prose edits

    Nice write-up!
  22. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    Thank you, Snorlaxe. Implemented your changes.

    The Team Options section is supposed to supplement the current Team Options section, because the Lead plays a bit differently from the sweeper and has a place on different kinds of teams. I can leave it off if you and/or others judge it unnecessary though :)
  23. breh

    breh ⁰ ゝ⁰
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    Looks good. Most of the errors were minor really, which is good.
  24. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    Thank you. I have made all of your changes :)

    This still needs one more GP check.
  25. Snorlaxe

    Snorlaxe 2 kawaii 4 u
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    oh yeah, I forgot that I proofread this...

    [​IMG]

    NOW you only need one more GP check ;P

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