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Jynx Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by tennisace, Apr 25, 2012.

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  1. tennisace

    tennisace
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    So the NU council (or a supermajority of it) decided Jynx should be an official suspect to be voted on. This thread will serve as a sounding board for peoples opinions.

    What you are expected to do in this thread:

    1. Post which sets you used in this and previous rounds as well as what you found good about it, what beat it, etc.

    2. Discuss Jynx's place in the tier; has the metagame adapted properly to it? Does it break the metagame? What counters or checks are there to Jynx?

    3. All Council members are expected to post their thoughts on, experiences using, and experiences against Jynx in this thread.

    4. Remember, you are trying to convince the council members with your posts. Keep it civil!
  2. NatGeo

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    Yes that was a supermajority but I'll be the first council member to say that this is not the suspect we should be focusing on. It's not even close to threatening to offensive teams, which are the main type in the tier ATM. Stuff like cinccino cam outspeeds and Ko with Rick blast, while any set that doesn't have substitute can be revenge killed by the likes of haunter and rotom s. physical scarfed Pokemon always take out any offensive nasty plot set, and although lovely kiss is threatening, it really doesn't take too much prediction to figure out which Pikemon jynx is going to at least want to pit to sleep...

    I'm on my phone ATM, so that's really all I have to say on the matter.
  3. Full2Half

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    Ugh, I hate this thing. As a late game sweeper, this...this...man(?) is top notch. Between lovely kiss, nasty plot, and stab ice/psychic moves, this thing is obviously a top tier threat. It's high speed allow it to bring down slower threats. It is also able to avoid sucker punch and it has an immunity to aqua jet and resistance to ice shard. Its only weakness to priority being shadow sneak from what? Muk? And i guess mach punch to an extent. Therefore, its ability to easily set up, and few things that can take it on, (namely cinccino, swellow, braviary, and other speedy physical attackers) which can easily be taken out before jynx comes in, and high speed with set-up, high spA and fantastic STABs, make me think it to break the metagame, in my opinion.
  4. ChaoticaMortis

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    I usually carry a Scarf'd Magmortar with Vital Spirit, so most of the Jynx sets don't scare me too much as I can avoid being put to sleep and outpace it for an easy KO (if the opponent stays in on Magmortar, that is). I've never felt that threatened by Jynx, but I do admit that it is one of the top offensive Pokemon in the entire tier. I couldn't tell you if it were broken or not, but I can state a few things I've noticed about the Pokemon.

    1) Jynx has a bunch of different sets, and how you deal with one will differ with how you deal with another. Sending in my Magmortar to take out a Jynx that I think is going to use Lovely Kiss only to be hit by a choice scarf'd Psychic / Psyshock is definitely a momentum killer, but I wouldn't say it cost me very many matches. Of course, my way of dealing with Jynx is probably different someone else's, and I'm not sure if I'm using the best method to counter it. Most Jynx that use a set up move can be handled by faster Pokemon or priority (i.e. Gurdurr's Mach Punch), Jynx with Lovely Kiss need to be handled with a Pokemon that cannot fall asleep or is holding a Lum Berry, Substitute Jynx is blasted with rocks (see what I did there), and Scarf / Specs Jynx is also easily beaten by priority. The problem is finding room to fit all that stuff onto your team and also being prepared for half of the other threats in this metagame.

    Golem comes to mind as a great check to all of Jynx's sets if you keep Sturdy on, but good luck having him come in on any of Jynx's moves other than Lovely Kiss (even then, it could just kiss you again after Lum heals you on the switch-in).

    2) Jynx is unable to live through more than one of any attack that I've ever thrown at it. Seriously, almost anything can take out a Jynx (if it manages to survive an attack from Jynx, that is). Substitute Jynx on the other hand has managed to mess me up pretty bad on a few occasions, but that's more my fault for not carrying a phazer or a multi-hit attack (I should follow my own advice, it seems). This does bring me back to the fact that Jynx has a bunch of different sets, and Substitute Jynx is one that I'm not well-prepared for. Again though, Jynx has the defense of a *insert wet paper bag, glob of jello, other cliche, etc. here,* and as long as you can out-pace it, you can usually kill it (whether that be a revenge kill or not depends on prediction, like half of every other way of dealing with Jynx).

    I'm gonna end with that since I think I'm rambling a little bit, so there you go.
    tl;dr, Jynx has different sets that are handled in completely different ways, although it dies in less than 3 hits all the time. Prediction is key when dealing with it.
  5. Alex_Arthur

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    There are a couple things that straight up wall Jynx though that are still actually useful. Vigorth and Magmar among my favourites. Well there is also Eviolte (Early Bird) Houndour but that's straight up killed by Focus Blast after Stealth Rocks.

    I used a Modest +0 Jynx for all the calculations.

    Detailed Result: 252 SpAtk Jynx (+SpAtk) Ice Beam vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Eviolite Magmar: 13.77% - 16.17%
    7-8 hits to KO
    Detailed Result: 252 SpAtk Jynx (+SpAtk) Psychic vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Eviolite Magmar: 26.05% - 30.84%
    4 hits to KO
    Detailed Result: 252 SpAtk Jynx (+SpAtk) Focus Blast vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Eviolite Magmar: 23.35% - 27.54%
    4-5 hits to KO

    Magmar just tanks everything with a Specially Defensive set and can Rest off the damage or kill it with Lava Plume. Opting for Fire Blast actually is beneficial in that it can straight up kill Jynx (99%+ ) Magmar also gets Vitial Spirit so you don't need to run a Rest set but without rest he will get worn down quite a bit.

    Vigorth


    Detailed Result: 252 SpAtk Jynx (+SpAtk) Focus Blast vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Eviolite Vigoroth: 54.95% - 64.84%
    2 hits to KO

    Detailed Result: 252 SpAtk Jynx (+SpAtk) Psychic vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Eviolite Vigoroth: 30.77% - 36.54%
    3-4 hits to KO


    Detailed Result: 252 SpAtk Jynx (+SpAtk) Ice Beam vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Eviolite Vigoroth: 32.42% - 38.74%
    3-4 hits to KO

    Vigoroth can't be put to sleep and with a boosting nature is only 2HKOd by Focus Miss while having the ability to heal up or KO Jynx with Frustration. That's not mentioning most Jynx aren't Modest to outrun / speed tie with various threats.

    I've chosen some of the better examples of shit that can counter it and haven't resorted to Sleep Talk Metang or RestTalk Quaggy or Specially Defensive Omanyte / Tirotuge who can all to different degrees counter Jynx. Sure Metang is set up bait for just about everything, Quaggy has better things to do and the others don't do much else (Annoy Charizard lacking a grass move). But Jynx isn't that hard to stop on an Offensive or Defensive Team provide you play smartly and don't let it set up with Calm Mind or Nasty Plot. Two sets I don't think are nearly as threatening as a well player Scarf set who out speeds some common scarf users.
  6. tennisace

    tennisace
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    If you're going to go through the trouble of mentioning mediocre NFEs to "counter" Jynx, at least mention Scraggy which is immune to Psychic/Psyshock, and has Shed Skin while a non-invested Crunch ohkos.
  7. Axa

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    I'm not sure why people haven't mentioned Hypno yet- it has Insomnia, and a specially bulky build not only allows it to switch into Jynx all day, but Fire Punch almost near OHKOs Jynx in return, and a guaranteed one with SR. Hypno isn't exactly dead weight either as it can Wishpass or set up screens.
  8. Dangerous

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    252SpAtk Life Orb Jynx (Neutral) Psyshock vs 252HP/252SDef Eviolite Magmar (+SDef): 31% - 37% (105 - 124 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Jynx (Neutral) Psyshock vs 252HP/252SDef Eviolite Magmar (+SDef): 36% - 43% (121 - 144 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.


    Timid Jynx's LO/Specs Psyshock has a chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock while Magmar has no reliable form of recovery; I highly doubt many people are going to be willing to sacrifice a team slot for such a mediocre Jynx check. It's also fairly safe to assume most Jynx you'll be facing will be Timid, not Modest.

    I'll post some of my own thoughts later.
  9. Axa

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    Why are you giving Jynx Psystrike? It should have Psyshock.
  10. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    I've personally never had any problems with Jynx, but to be fair i run both Magmortar and SpD Skuntank. I can see Jynx being a problem for teams that aren't prepared for it, but that can be said about almost any sweeper. While it's definitely a massive threat due to the Sleep it can reliably inflict in switch-ins, so long as you play around it carefully, i think it can be dealt with easily. As stated, Scarf Cinccino beats all Jynx sets if it comes in after a kill, and if Jynx lacks Substitute, it's OHKO'd by pretty much anything faster than it other than HP Ground Cryogonal. Meanwhile, Scarf Jynx can be switched into easily once you know what move it's using. It's definitely a top tier threat, but i don't think inherently it's broken.

    Weather rocks on the other hand...
  11. Dangerous

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    Whoops, typo.
  12. Django

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    I'm really not sure where people get the idea that Jynx has trouble with offensive teams. In my experience, Jynx thrives against every type of team. Unless the offensive team has 6 Pokemon which all can outspeed and KO Jynx (I find this hard to believe), then there will be an opening for Jynx. Once an opposing Pokemon slower than Jynx kills something, Jynx can come in for free and start going to work. This is the way Jynx works best, sure it has opportunites to switch in but coming in once something has died increases its effectiveness a lot. Once in, the opposing team has a choice to make; do I switch in something to fodder to sleep, do I try and switch in something faster than Jynx that can take a hit (hint: nothing) or do I just saty in and let something die. In all the situations, something is going to either be put to sleep or be KO'd, and often times both happen.

    Note that switching to a hard coutner is not really an option for offensive teams since what offensive team carries a Hypno or Metang or the like? The only thing faster than Jynx that can take an Ice Beam or Psyshock is Miltank, and that will be OHKO'd by Focus Blast (if it chooses to run Speed).

    As for Cinccino being a good way to beat Jynx, sure it outspeeds and KO's with Rock Blast, but honestly what competent Jynx user is going to stay in? Secondly, Cinccino cannot switch in to any of Jynxs moves (I'm talking about the LK + 3 Attacks set, its more effective), so its a revenge killer at best, and everything and its mother can be revenged killed one way or another. If your going to revenge it at least use Pursuit Swellow or Tauros. This is what concerns me though, can we really use revenge killing alone as an argument to not banning something? Where does this leave stall teams? (who, by the way, are molested by Jynx). I can count the number of hard counters to Jynx on one hand, and the number of those that are actually decent is...yeah.

    The worst thing about Jynx, and the main reason why I feel it should be banned, is the amount to which it restricts teambuilding. If you are not running a hard counter to Jynx (I really really don't want to run Hypno or Metang on every team) then Jynx is either going to put something to sleep or kill something (or both) every time it comes in. Revenge killing it is good and all, but by that point Jynx has done its job since you have to sacrifice one, if not two Pokemon to get the revenge killer in. Even then its not like we are playing with the dreaded Shadow Tag Cinccino. You have to run both a) something that can reliably absorb sleep and not be outrighted KO'd by Jynx. Sleep mechanics this gen means something being asleep is pretty much useless, another thing that pushes Jynx over the edge for me. As well as b) something that can switch into Ice Beams/Psyshocks and live to tell the tale. The amount of Pokemon that can do this is very very few, and Steel types that can are murdered by Focus Blast.
  13. TROP

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    While edit later with a way longer post, but just leaving this for now.

    I find the argument of Jynx can be revenged by <insert x pokemon here> to be really poor because unless it has Pursuit( and let's be honest here only Sneasel can fit that on his set of all the faster pokemon) nothing can guarantee that you will eliminate Jynx that way. Same with "Jynx can't switch into anything unless a choice locked Water-type move" because Jynx is not intented to come in that way, she comes in when she knows she will outspeed for sure and remove that Pokemon from the match or can't really threaten her and then picking from Substitue, Lovely Kiss or Ice beam to greatly affect something and start her reign of terror from there.In a way Jynx reminds me of UU Staraptor, and lets remember at the time Raptor was in UU a lot of pokemon were able to revenge it either by priority or simply outspeeding it and we all know how that ended. I know Jynx doesn't hit as hard as Staraptor but just a small variation in her set causes her check and counter list to change.

    This doesn't fit in an offensive team at all, and If I really wanted screens for an offensive one I would use Gardevoir before Hypno any day because of her sexy Memento. Not to mention that he is bad for anything else that is not beating Jynx. And if for some reason Jynx has trick Hypno will be even less effective through the match while Jynx freely switches out. And as someone that hates team without lots of offensive power Hypno is nothing but dead weight for that.
  14. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Guys, remember when saying Jynx can just switch out, it's weak to all entry hazards, so it's not going to be switching in and out of battle constantly. If it has a Life Orb, it has even less opportunities. And the switch-ins are going to be taking damage too. Furthermore, offensive pokemon can set up Substitutes or boosting moves as Jynx switches, so you're not really approaching this situation from all angles.

    I think we can all say that the only thing that makes Jynx a suspect is its access to Lovely Kiss when combined with its Speed and offensive presence. Otherwise, it's just a good attacker. I'm still adamant that, so long as you play carefully around it, you can deal with it, just like anything else.

    Also, can people please stop suggesting "counters" such as Magmar and Metang. Using these will simply provide setup fodder for Jynx's teammates, such as Samurott. If you're scared by Lovely Kiss, then run Lum Berry on something. Or switch to Probopass, or Garbodor, or a death fodder. Playing around Jynx is the key to defeating it.
  15. Django

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    I'm just going to state that Jynx only needs to switch in two times maximum to completely destroy a team. The thing is, you can say "just play around it" the Jynx user can just "play around you playing around it" its a kind of endless cycle of which player can predict better, and I don't really think it should be brought up in this type of discussion, since every single Pokemon can be played around one way or another. If there are common examples of a set of 2 or 3 Pokemon that can combine to easily "play around" (by easily I mean, don't have to make 50/50 predictions the whole time) then fine, but I just don't see that many combinations (if any at all) that are safe from Jynx.

    Also yeah Magmar and Metang are completely pointless here.
  16. TROP

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    Here is the thing, as Lovely Kiss and Ice Beam are pretty much guaranteed in all Jynx sets it is risky switching to something else that would be able to take the moves from another set will be eliminated. In these examples: Probopass would normally take care of the Ice Beam when it is Jynx only move, but if Jynx is packing Focus Blast then it will be swiftly eliminated, and for Garbodor he was a really poor example for this, as it can be 2hkoed by Leftovers Ice Beam(it is guaranteed to be eliminated with LO or using a psychic move after if leftovers). And giving Jynx death fodder is what she loves the most as it helps her to either get a Lovely Kiss or set a sub and continue to do what she does best. And running random Lum Berry is not helping this to prove Jynx is not broken.


    And hazards can be prevented eaither by using something manly like Rampardos and Marowak to deal with the common first turn Stealth Rock users or spinning them away, while they spinners don't have the best synergy with Jynx she will always love the help from the likes of Armaldo that also happens to have decent enough bulk to take on most of Jynx checks.
  17. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Well a combination of Magmortar and something like Musharna should work fairly well... Magmortar should discourage Lovely Kisses while Musharna can take its attacks fairly well at set up Calm Minds. SpD Skuntank beats Jynx pretty badly too... especially if it carries a Lum Berry to switch into Lovely Kisses with (it should really just be more popular in general)

    ...although I think I'm misunderstanding your point. At this moment I think I'm just going to bow out; I've never been given reason to think Jynx is broken during any of my matches, but that's because my team has a good matchup against it and most of its users are incompetent. I'm probably too biased to see the other side of the coin. :p

    Risk is definitely a factor when playing against Jynx, so just be a pro like me and deal with it B)
  18. Cherub Agent

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    My personal opinion is that, while obviously a fantastic Pokemon, Jynx doesn't quite have what it takes to be considered broken. The problem holding it back is simply its frailty and bad defensive typing. While it possesses excellent offensive stats, as well as excellent neutral coverage in Ice Beam alone, it's simply held back by its paper thin Defense, lack of any really good resistances apart from its immunity to Water, and incredible vulnerability to entry hazards. Jynx can't come bouncing in multiple times a match in order to sweep: once it switches in, it has to stay in if it wants to pull off a sweep. Stealth Rock immediately cuts its survivability, and Toxic Spikes immediately puts it on a timer, especially if it also carries Life Orb. Although rare, Spikes can obviously wear it down as well. The tool that makes Jynx broken in many people's eyes is obviously Lovely Kiss; however, it's an unreliable move. It will miss 25% of the time, and with Pokemon such as Magmortar and Electabuzz lurking around the corner, it has to predict well in order to prevent them from revenge killing it. Add to that that unless Jynx has a Substitute up, its Speed, while excellent, won't prevent it from being revenge killed by faster Pokemon like any other sweeper. Its vulnerability to Pokemon such as Cinccino (who also doesn't give a damn about Substitute) is unfortunate, as Cinccino is one of the most common physical attackers in the tier. Jynx can put a Pokemon to sleep, and set up Nasty Plot. In the turn Jynx sets up, the opponent can have brought in a faster Pokemon such as Tauros or Charizard and proceed to simply OHKO Jynx, as basically any decently physical moves will suffice to bring it down. So in my opinion Jynx isn't broken.
  19. TROP

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    Rule number 1 when using Lovely Kiss: Is a vital spirit mon still alive? if the answer is no feel free to use it if the answer is not pick from any move avaible to Jynx. And for this case lets get this started:

    Magmortar tries to come in a lovely kiss but following the numer 1 rule of lovely kiss, one can know that is coming and hit on the switch with an unexpected Psyshock that can do this to Magmortar: Psyshock: 217-256 (73.06 - 86.19%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, that as said on a previous post while it would normally be able to take sub+NP Jynx or mono ice attacking Jynx it just fails when trying to come in on another set.

    Musharna?, if this is packing Shadow Ball or random Sleep Talk then it has a chance of beating Jynx, but if Sleep Clause is not on and Jynx lands a Lovely Kiss then this has a decent chance of being eliminated if Stealth Rock is on play because a Life Orb'd Ice Beam does this Ice Beam: 190-225 (43.87 - 51.96%) so it is not really safe if it tries to come take on Jynx.

    Now Skuntank this has better chances at winning so I let this as a possibly win with minor risks.

    This part made me remember a post in the DW section of DST:Click me, first paragraph, granted there is nothing in NU similar to DW Chandelure but it shows that with bias from previous teams having more than the usual counters/check for something makes it look less broken.
  20. No Luck Involved

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    Having played devil's advocate so long in this discussion, I'm going to try to present my reasons for Jynx being broken (if it is indeed broken).

    - Jynx has very good coverage and it can hit hard on both sides. In three moves it can 2HKO almost the entire tier. Specifically these are the Pokemon in NU that avoid a 2HKO from LO Ice Beam, Psyshock and Focus Blast (taking SR into consideration):
    Specially defensive Alomomola,
    Specially defensive Gardevoir,
    Specially defensive Musharna,
    Specially defensive Duosion,
    Physically defensive Flareon,
    Specially defensive Wartortle.

    That is a shocking list (and yes I did all the calculations). The only ones from there that are remotely usable are the first three namely specially defensive Alomomola, Gardevoir and Musharna. Out of those, only Gardevoir and Musharna can think about countering Jynx in that they always avoid a 2HKO, they have reliable healing, they can threaten Jynx back with Shadow Ball or HP [Fighting].

    Some Pokemon such as Hypno did not make the list because they do not even make the cut-off for NU! So there's two usable hard counters in all of NU currently.

    - Jynx has access to a sleeping move. Lovely Kiss has the 25% miss rate to make Jynx tear her hair out (maybe she needs to get some better chatup lines, or maybe just stop coming onto things...) but 75% is definitely reliable if Focus Blast is reliable.

    - Jynx has good speed. Base 95 is a good speed tier for NU. She isn't godly fast but she still outspeeds most of the tier.


    None of the above three factors deem something broken, not even two of them in conjunction. But to have all three of them is what takes Jynx right to the edge. Good speed, amazing coverage, and a sleeping move.

    And that isn't even Jynx's best set imo. Jynx's best set uses both Lovely Kiss and Substitute in my view, allowing it to set up on a much larger number of things and has a much better chance to keep up a Sub to prevent revenge killing. With just two attacks, Ice Beam and Psyshock/Focus Blast, Jynx still threatens the vast majority of the tier with a 2HKO and in choosing just one move (Psyshock or Focus Blast) Jynx has vastly different counters.



    So is there any bad news for Jynx at all? Yes but the list is much shorter.

    - Jynx has little special bulk and no physical bulk. Literally touch it with something physical and it dies. Jynx can not really switch-in to anything in NU with any conviction. Yes some moves are easy to predict but the Jynx user must always be aware that one bad move and Jynx could be gone. This also has a consequence on the threats that are faster than Jynx: Jynx is a non-issue for Pokemon faster than Base 95 - Jynx is not able to tank a hit and threaten them back. So Jynx can dominate the Base 95 speed tier and below, but is powerless to everything above this tier.

    - Jynx often lacks the power to OHKO things straight off the bat. Despite all the calculations showing the things Jynx can 2HKO with perfect prediction, it surprisingly struggles to OHKO things (and this is not helped by the amount of Sturdy Pokemon that Jynx should be OHKOing lol!). This combined with Jynx's poor bulk means that it needs some support to truly flourish because often if Jynx fails to OHKO something then it's dead. Lovely Kiss saves it somewhat here but the user must be wary of relying on it because one miss and Jynx risks leaving the battle having achieved nothing.


    For me these are the main points when it comes to judging Jynx's position in the tier. Jynx is extremely dangerous and pretty much has the tier at its mercy once it comes in. However its frailty and speed tier is holding back some of its destructive potential. If it has 10 more base speed, or could actually tank an attack then it would be over the edge imo.

    The lack of counters in NU is another issue, but there could be another side to it. If Jynx really is the unstoppable monster of NU, why haven't people started using some obscure hard counters? Does this mean people haven't deemed Jynx to be broken enough to sink to those depths to find niche counters? After all Bronzong was used in the Garchomp era, and Gastrodon is used now in the rain era when we know they are likely to be lower tier Pokemon if not for their respective niches.

    So this is the million (Poke)dollar question. Has the average NU team figured out a way to handle Jynx (its low bulk, its speed tier, its inability to OHKO things)? The lack of dedicated counters suggests that at least people are playing around Jynx for now. Could that be a sign that Jynx has settled into the metagame and its flaws are in fact readily exploited by the average team, thus outweighing its ridiculous offensive potential?

    Personally I haven't been in a situation against Jynx where I have thought "god I really couldn't do anything about that", it has always been because of a misplay on my part or a brilliant play on my opponent's that Jynx starts causing serious problems. That makes me lean towards not broken, and I think it will be really interesting to hear what the council's decision is.
  21. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    This hits it right on the nail, imo. Jynx appears to be a high-skill, high-reward pokemon, that if played correctly may be broken, but will fall easily if the player makes a mistake. People say it's broken because it can do so many things, 2HKO so many pokemon, etc, but its overall difficulty to use probably keeps it in check. If people suddenly become experts at using Jynx in-battle as opposed to in-theory, then I'll definitely reconsider my stance, but as it is, I'll need more convincing on PO. I might try and make a ladder team based around Jynx, but I'm pretty short on time this week.
  22. Hikari

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    I honestly couldn't care less about NU but someone linked me to this so...

    All the Pokemon in that list, except Flareon (Assuming it used Lovely Kiss on another Pokemon), loses to NP Jynx. The three Pokemon you said were the best from that cannot beat Jynx. Alomomola is set up fodder for the Sub + NP set, +2 Psyshock has good chances of 2HKOing with hazards support and +2 Psychic 2HKOes all the time. Both Gardevoir and Musharna are 2HKOed by +2 Ice Beam and they can't OHKO Jynx with Shadow Ball after SR.

    Also Synchronize doesn't work with Sleep...
  23. Steamroll

    Steamroll Tasty
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    Who the hell in their right mind would run a Physically defensive Flareon?
  24. TROP

    TROP *tips fedora*
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    How could I miss this gem?.
  25. Django

    Django
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    I really don't see how Jynx is hard to use. You bring it in on something it outspeeds (once something else has died of course) then either a) put something to sleep or b) if they have something to take the sleep, you kill it as it switches in. Sure the 75% accuracy can be annoying, but more often than not Jynx should come out on top.
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