Jynx Suspect Discussion

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erisia

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Just an aside, I never realised how similar Jynx is to Darkrai. Both are fast, powerful but frail special sweepers. Both have an immunity to switch into and little else. Both have an accurate Sleep move to get around checks with. Both have excellent neutral coverage between their moves, and excellent attacking STABs in the tier. And both have the tendency to run Sub + Nasty Plot and Trick Scarf sets...

Makes me wonder if Jynx in NU is like Darkrai in OU. :p
 

TROP

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Just an aside, I never realised how similar Jynx is to Darkrai. Both are fast, powerful but frail special sweepers. Both have an immunity to switch into and little else. Both have an accurate Sleep move to get around checks with. Both have excellent neutral coverage between their moves, and excellent attacking STABs in the tier. And both have the tendency to run Sub + Nasty Plot and Trick Scarf sets...
This sounds about right, but Darkrai is not that frail he can live some decently powerful attacks like unboosted Excadrill Earthquake something Jynx can only dream of.
Edit:Shit, forgot that Darkrai is way faster making it harder to revenge without scarfers, so the only they have in common is sleep move+NP.

Secondly, I feel there's way to much emphasis on just the sweeper set. The Choice Scarf set is one of the most crippling revengers around.
Unless I have been reading other thread, the discussion has been mostly about the Lk+3 Attacks set that is not sweeping just damaging about everything with the approporiate move. Also lol scarf Jynx, of all sets you had to pick that one?.
 

jrrrrrrr

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If you're comparing Jynx to Darkrai, you're just making Jynx look terrible. Darkrai is fast enough to beat most Choice Scarfers and actually has the defenses to take a hit if its sleep move misses. Not to mention it doesn't rely on Substitute for protection so it can actually exist at full HP. And unlike Jynx, Darkrai has excellent typing both offensively and defensively.
 
This sounds about right, but Darkrai is not that frail he can live some decently powerful attacks like unboosted Excadrill Earthquake something Jynx can only dream of.
Edit:Shit, forgot that Darkrai is way faster making it harder to revenge without scarfers, so the only they have in common is sleep move+NP.


Unless I have been reading other thread, the discussion has been mostly about the Lk+3 Attacks set that is not sweeping just damaging about everything with the approporiate move. Also lol scarf Jynx, of all sets you had to pick that one?.

Yes? Scarf allows Jynx to beat things that generally outspeed it or at worst, sleep them.

It also makes it tough to revenge kill. Scarf Jynx is one of it's better sets because it almost guarantees it doesn't get hit which is critical for team support where Jynx can often take out big threats hindering a sweep.


EDIT: Not to mention he beats Shell Smash Gorebyss one on one.
 

jrrrrrrr

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So Jynx is only #15 in 1200+ usage...good players aren't using it...kinda hard to argue that NU is broken. And unlike Wobbuffet, Jynx is not dominating in tournament usage either.
 
Even though I'm not in favour of banning Jynx, I have to say that usage is not really a consideration for me. If something is sufficiently proven to be broken then it should be banned regardless of usage. One of the reasons it isn't used very much might just be that some people think it is broken and don't want to use it, for more of a challenge or whatever. (it's possible lol!)
 
So Jynx is only #15 in 1200+ usage...good players aren't using it...kinda hard to argue that NU is broken. And unlike Wobbuffet, Jynx is not dominating in tournament usage either.
Tourney usage hasn't been used as evidence for Wobb. Wobb negated playstyles other than HO, and even if it were to fall under RU otherwise, such a manner was irrelevant when it was broken.

Also, usage doesn't necessitate something being broken. Many Suspects have the lovely chartage of being middle (or low) ranks of their respective charts prior to their being banned.

Jynx is similar to Wobbs in that it negates playstyles. Stall cannot touch it without having dead weight on the team otherwise (Grumpig and Hypno are forgettable 'mons, thank you for reminding me that they exist). Balance has similar issues (especially with NFEs -eesh, I refuse to use NFEs to begin with, because a majority of them are situational atbest compared to their fully-evolved superiors). The most optimal scenario for countering Jynx is having all Pokes who have higher base Speeds than Jynx in order to revenge it (read: not realistic - especially considering that ).

And yes, most of this argument derives from me having taken a gander at the Damp Rock Suspect discussion prior, and saying similar things to Adam Lambert. Neither of the two Rocks break the metagame, and Rain actually gets nerfed if Jynx gets banned anyway.
 

nyttyn

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Right, enough theorymonning. I propose we all give Jynx a try on our teams and through first-hand experience get a better idea of it's op/not op status. We can sit around and debate all day, but unless we actually try it out and see how crippling it really is, then we're talking about banning thing without giving it a fair shake, much like say Mew back at the start of D/P.


Alt: Super Kami Guru. Will report back later with my findings.
 
Right, enough theorymonning. I propose we all give Jynx a try on our teams and through first-hand experience get a better idea of it's op/not op status. We can sit around and debate all day, but unless we actually try it out and see how crippling it really is, then we're talking about banning thing without giving it a fair shake, much like say Mew back at the start of D/P.
Most everyone here have been using Jynx this whole time. It's been around for about 6 months.
 

nyttyn

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Most everyone here have been using Jynx this whole time. It's been around for about 6 months.
So Jynx is only #15 in 1200+ usage...good players aren't using it...kinda hard to argue that NU is broken. And unlike Wobbuffet, Jynx is not dominating in tournament usage either.
These quotes are a little conflicting to be honest. What I'm hearing is that people are using it...yet people aren't using it? All I'm hearing from both sides are people's experiences fighting it or theroycrafting, but nobody's experiences with using the damn thing with the possible exception of Django (his statements imply he has used it, but I don't want to assume). While yes, I do agree that the numbers are quite overwhelming, it would be a bit rash to ban it without sharing our experiences using it.


For the record, my experiences thusfar have shown that it is as broken as sin. Sure, other people have brought up that every Jynx has a weak point, but the argument exists that every Blaziken had a weak point (Yes, I know, OU, but hear me out here.). The problem here is that each Jynx requires a significantly different counter. Scarf bets threats SubCM falls to (Standard LO Cinccino), SubCM beats threats Lovely Kiss + 3 attacks falls to(Any scarfer/extremely fast revenger not named Cinccino (But who runs Scarfino? The power loss is not worth countering Jynx), and Lovely Kiss + 3 Attacks beats threats Scarf falls to(Absol and other sucker punchers). Plus, they still have to sac a mon to even get a chance at taking Jynx out, as all of the standard counters usually can't even survive one hit from Jynx, much less two.


So after reading the numbers, and trying for myself, I can say with reliable confidence that Jynx simply is too powerful for the tier, and should be forcibly moved up to RU. Plus the only safe way to kill it is to sac a mon, as nothing in the tier that outspeeds it can eat one attack, and most walls cannot eat two attacks
(with the exceptions of Grumpig -decent check, but can't really threaten Jynx-, Hypno-setup/swap bait-, Murshana -doesn't threaten Jynx, setup fodder-, Tankdevoir -it gets walls up I guess? still setup fodder-, Alomomola -Setup fodder, Subs block toxic, easy to sleep, shoddy wall in the first place as it can wish pass and that's about it-, Tank Flareon -I don't even need to talk about how bad this thing is, and setup fodder-, Tank Duosion -Setup Fodder, can 2hko at best and that's assuming spatk EVs, easily put to sleep-, Wartortle -Sub bait. Can't setup, but it's not going to break the sub ever.-.) The only things on this list I haven't personally fought are Tank Flareon and Wartortle, and they're both hilariously nonthreatening in the first place that it doesn't really matter.
 
These quotes are a little conflicting to be honest. What I'm hearing is that people are using it...yet people aren't using it? All I'm hearing from both sides are people's experiences fighting it or theroycrafting, but nobody's experiences with using the damn thing with the possible exception of Django (his statements imply he has used it, but I don't want to assume). While yes, I do agree that the numbers are quite overwhelming, it would be a bit rash to ban it without sharing our experiences using it.
Are you implying that #15 in overall usage isn't high? O_o
Believe me, most of us (if not all) have used Jynx at least once since NU started. Unlike Damp / Heat Rock, Jynx is consistently seen in this tier, and is a legitimate concern when team building.

However, I do agree with most of the other stuff you said; Jynx is a bitch to fight against, and different sets counter the other's counters. Frustrating stuff.

When's the vote on this, by the way?

EDIT: Lol Zebraiken
 

tennisace

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Council members are sending in votes, so this wraps up the discussion. Thanks for participating!
 
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