Kangaskhan [QC 0/3] - Doubles

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Haruno

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Overview
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  • Kangaskhan is one of the strongest attackers in the tier due to having a solid 125 base attack in addition to one of the best abilities in game that essentially gives kangaskhan a choice band on all its moves.
  • Thanks to parental bond, kanga can easily set up on non ghost types with power up punch which gives it +2 attack which further improves its already dominant offensive presence.
  • Has solid 105/100/100 bulk that lets it take hits rather well.
  • Kangaskhan has a decent base 100 speed which is a solid speed tier which lets it outspeed a good amount of the metagame, while also being able to threaten the mons that outspeed it with sucker punch which threatens the mons that would normally be able to outspeed and ko kanga.
  • Kangaskhan also provides decent team support with stab, parental bond boosted fake out which helps its teammates have a free turn.
  • Kangaskhan being a normal type gives it no resistances and only one relatively uncommon immunity in ghost, this works both ways since although kanga might not have any resistances, it also doesn't have any weaknesses outside of fighting types.
Wrath of Kangaskhan
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name: Wrath of Kangaskhan
move 1: Fake out / Protect
move 2: Return / Double Edge
move 3: Power-Up Punch / Low Kick
move 4: Sucker Punch
ability: Inner Focus / Scrappy
item: Kangaskhanite
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Sp
nature: Jolly / Adamant

Moves
========
  • Fake out is an excellent utility move that helps provide chip damage on your opponent while also being able to let your partner set up and/or attack due to the guaranteed flinch of fake out that helps kanga mega evolve safely. Easily one of the most important moves to run on kanga since it pressures your opponent immensely when kanga comes out.
  • Protect is there since if you feel you don't need the utility provided by fake out, you can instead opt to use protect instead to help scout out moves or provide a free turn for kanga in case it feels threatened, protect in general is a solid move and shouldn't be overlooked.
  • Return is your primary stab attack providing a 100bp stab with essentially no draw back and the move you'd use in most situations due to how hard it hits.
  • Double Edge is a viable option over return since it has a notable increase in power, however it does have nasty recoil that compromises kanga's bulk, though the 20% increase in power is definitely worth considering over return despite the recoil.
  • Power-up Punch is to allow kangaskhan to massively increase its attack should an opportune moment arises. Not to mention that thanks to parental bond's unique mechanics, as opposed to only gaining +1 attack per use, kanga gets +2 attack if it uses it.
  • Low kick is if you don't intend to use kanga as a sweeper and instead need the fighting type coverage
  • Sucker Punch is your priority and essential on mega kanga since it allows it to nullify its chance of getting screwed by speed control and allows it to beat mons that outspeed it such as latios or skymin, while also giving it an option to use while under trick room or your opponent has tailwind up.

Set Details
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  • Kangaskhanite is self explanatory since it allows kangaskhan to mega evolve, and normal kangaskhan isn't worth using.
  • Full investment into attack is to allow kangaskhan to hit as hard as possible.
  • Full investment into speed is to ensure kanga outspeeds everything with under 100 base speed, while also speed tying with other base 100 speed mons.
  • The choice of using Jolly or Adamant is up to team preferences, since Jolly ensures that it won't be outsped by mons such as excadrill, non scarf lando-t, and speed tying with other base 100's however adamant will ensure you hit as hard as possible, so both are usable.
  • 4 def is to give genesect a special attack boost which threatens kanga less than physical moves, ultimately a minor nitpick and you can go either way.
  • Inner Focus allows kanga to always pull off a fake out pre mega evolving in case you cannot afford to lose a speed tie on lead turn.
  • Scrappy is used to fake out ghosts which is helpful in some situations.
Usage Tips
========
  • Fake out is an excellent move for applying pressure on your opponent because the threat of fake out forces your opponent to make risky plays such as protecting or quick guarding anticipating the fake out, which is the opportune time to power up punch your partner or your opponent's mon who you think won't protect. Fake out can also be used to help your partner set up.
  • Sucker punch may be a powerful move, however it's a coinflip with its usage since your opponent might predict it and instead of opting to attack, switch or set up and thus if you used sucker punch, you just wasted a turn for nothing, so it's best to weigh risk and reward accordingly when you're thinking about using sucker punch.
  • Return/double edge is the most abusable move you have, so make sure to use it unless you're sure you can get a power up punch off without kanga or its partner getting too injured because at +2, essentially nothing but the bulkiest of resists can live a return/double edge.
  • Power up punch is the most threatening move you have in your arsenal, the mere threat of it forces your opponent on the back foot and makes them make plays that they wouldn't have to do against other set up sweepers, so use it wisely.
  • You don't have to mega evolve immediately when you're using kanga and instead could opt to use one of its pre mevo moves should the situation call for it, keep inner focus in case you can not afford to mispredict your opponent's fake out, or keep scrappy in case you desperately need to hit your opponents ghost type.

Team Options
========
  • Bisharp is a good partner to kangaskhan since it discourages intimidators with its defiant ability since although kanga might drop one stage in attack, bisharp would gain a stage, so kanga + bisharp is an effective partner since it discourages kanga's checks.
  • Redirectors tend to be good partners to kangaskhan such as amoongus or togekiss, since they resist fighting and can proceed to rage powder/follow me, while kanga can freely attack the opponent without fear of harm except from weak spread moves.
  • Set up mons in general, greatly benefit from the free turn and the immense pressure kanga provides with its mere existence and since kanga is so often targetted, these mons can proceed to set up while kanga diverts attention away from them.

Other Options
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  • Crunch is an option to hit ghosts that wall you otherwise, however it makes you miss out on sucker punch which leaves kangaskhan open to faster mons (or slower mons under trick room)
  • Ice punch is usable to hit landorus-t on the switch since landorus-t is one of the most common switchins to kangaskhan.
  • Seismic toss is usable if you want kangaskhan to still be useful even while statused since it does a static 200 damage which is enough to threaten to 2hko the whole tier unless they have heavy hp investment alongside a high base hp.

Checks & Counters
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**Typing Advantage**
  • Ghosts that don't necessarily have to attack wall kanga's standard set unless it runs the sub optimal crunch. (gourgeist, aegislash, chandelure)
  • Bulky Fighting types that can live a hit and threaten to ohko in return are also a huge threat to kangaskhan.
**Intimidate**
  • Like all other physical attackers, Kanga has some problems against intimidate users however it has power up punch to mitigate this to an extent and due to kanga's speed tier, it allows kanga to either dent/ko intimidators that it outspeeds after a power up punch (hitmontop/scrafty/lando-t) or threaten faster intimidators with sucker punch (mega manectric, scarf lando-t)
  • Mega Mawile pre mega evolve does a decent job of checking kanga due to intimidate + fantastic bulk while resisting kanga's whole arsenal bar the weak power up punch.
**Speed**
  • Mons that outspeed kanga and resist sucker punch are decent checks to it, however it's worth noting that they cannot switch in, examples include terrakion, mega diancie, and keldeo.
 
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Arcticblast

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If you're slashing Double-Edge you should also pick a Fighting move to slash; DEdge and PuP are best kept separate. Return is better on sweeping sets because it lets Kang stick around longer with its +2, while Double-Edge is better on all-out attacking sets for its higher immediate damage output.

Also where is Ice Punch that move is good

Not QC
 

Haruno

Skadi :)
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
If you're slashing Double-Edge you should also pick a Fighting move to slash; DEdge and PuP are best kept separate. Return is better on sweeping sets because it lets Kang stick around longer with its +2, while Double-Edge is better on all-out attacking sets for its higher immediate damage output.

Also where is Ice Punch that move is good

Not QC
Ice punch really isn't useful, and not worth a slash and its just a minor OO option due to the fact that unless the mon has either a 4x weakness, or weak to ice and resists normal, your main stab will hit harder which makes it not worth it.

Honestly there's no real way to put in a fighting slash mostly because power up punch is undisputedly better in most scenarios, but in the cases that it isn't (mostly involving double edge recoil) it'd almost certainly have to be run with double edge which seems difficult to implement on an analysis unless I outright say its better to run low kick with double edge than it is to run pup with double edge (and even that is questionable). Overall it seems too inefficient to add a slash for a fighting move just for when it's hsing double edge mostly because the fighting coverage overall isn't that important (and the original kanga analysis didn't have fighting coverage as a slash and nothing really changed in ORAS to justify it)
 

BLOOD TOTEM

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I think we should definitely promote a bulky set for Kangaskhan.

Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
Happiness: 0
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 124 Def / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Frustration
- Low Kick
- Ice Punch

Benchmarks:
  • oustpeed bisharp pre mega
  • outspeed breloom post mega
  • Survive -1 LO Terrakion CC
  • 70% chance to survive Keldeo Secret Sword
  • MAX ATTACK BIG POWER
 

Haruno

Skadi :)
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I think we should definitely promote a bulky set for Kangaskhan.

Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
Happiness: 0
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 124 Def / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Frustration
- Low Kick
- Ice Punch

Benchmarks:
  • oustpeed bisharp pre mega
  • outspeed breloom post mega
  • Survive -1 LO Terrakion CC
  • 70% chance to survive Keldeo Secret Sword
  • MAX ATTACK BIG POWER
Ice punch as I mentioned earlier is bad and only hits lando-t and definitely not worth using over sucker punch and at that point it's simply the same set as the default with low kick > pup and a ev tweak. I really doubt that warrants a whole different set when it's literally one move change and a slight ev tweak (and not a very good one at that)
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
honestly i think a stoss set should be written up since it gets protect and shit which makes it a lot harder to dispatch than normal kang
 

Darkmalice

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The set should look like:

name: Wrath of Kangaskhan
move 1: Fake Out
move 2: Frustation / Double Edge
move 3: Power-Up Punch / Low Kick
move 4: Sucker Punch
ability: Scrappy / Inner Focus
item: Kangaskhanite
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe (note the order of the slashes)
nature: Jolly / Adamant

Kang's Fake Out is really good because it's Fake Out and with Kang it actually deals good damage. Kang has too much of 4MSS for Protect. Protect is still good, though much of its merit comes from the surprise of Kang not normally using it. Once revealed, however, it doesn't shine as much, and overall Fake Out > Protect. Protect should reside in AC.

Power-Up Punch to help sweep. If not using Kang to sweep and using it more so for raw damage, Low Kick is the better option to get Fighting-type coverage. It pairs best with Double-Edge, as Double-Edge recoil doesn't pair well with PuP, akin to what v said.

Scrappy > Inner Focus. I find I'm more likely to find myself in a scenario wanting to Fake Out a Ghost-type than in one with which to abuse Inner Focus without Mega evolving, as Kang is faster than the most other commonly used Fake Out Pokemon, Hitmontop and Scrafty.

BLOOD TOTEM 's bulky EV spread should be in AC. Kang is still used pretty similarly when it has both a 252/252 spread and a more bulky spread, so there's no need for two separate sets.

Ice Punch is iffy. It's making Kang worse just for Lando-T, but Lando-T is so common it does pay off. I argue that a good Lando-T player should not be letting itself get hit by Ice Punch in the first place (either scout for it, or badly dent Kang with Superpower which is pretty common on the Scarf set). I feel it should be the first option in OO, but I know other QC members disgress, so I can settle for it in AC. I do know that you want it in OO Haruno too.


Drain Punch can also go in OO as an alternative over Low Kick.
 
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Adamant Zoroark

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I thought the standard for C&C was always Return only without a Frustration slash? There was a scenario in the OU Analyses subforum in which Oglemi edited Frustration out of the Mega Lopunny analysis. What you really end up with is a situation in which, say, Ditto starts running zero happiness to respond to people running Frustration > Return, to which people respond by running Return > Frustration to respond to zero happiness Ditto, and it just ends up as a never-ending cycle, similar to speed creep. Basically, people are free to run Frustration > Return if they please, but it shouldn't go in the analysis for the same reason we don't put speed creep EV spreads in our analyses.

And honestly, I expected a QC team member such as yourself to know why we don't put Frustration in our analyses just because of Ditto.
 

Darkmalice

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I thought the standard for C&C was always Return only without a Frustration slash? There was a scenario in the OU Analyses subforum in which Oglemi edited Frustration out of the Mega Lopunny analysis. What you really end up with is a situation in which, say, Ditto starts running zero happiness to respond to people running Frustration > Return, to which people respond by running Return > Frustration to respond to zero happiness Ditto, and it just ends up as a never-ending cycle, similar to speed creep. Basically, people are free to run Frustration > Return if they please, but it shouldn't go in the analysis for the same reason we don't put speed creep EV spreads in our analyses.
Apologies; keep Return.

The original reasons for Return > Frustration were for convenience for Wi-Fi players and all Smogon analyses were using it at the time of discussion, not Transform. Using Frustration to screw with Transform users came up as a strategy afterwards (which coincidentally is used today).

And honestly, I expected a QC team member such as yourself to know why we don't put Frustration in our analyses just because of Ditto.
There is no need for this snide comment. We all make mistakes.
 

Haruno

Skadi :)
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
honestly i think a stoss set should be written up since it gets protect and shit which makes it a lot harder to dispatch than normal kang
What would you propose? Obviously not putting on that op wish/protect/fake out/seismic toss set you mentioned on irc :(

evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe (note the order of the slashes)
done

Kang's Fake Out is really good because it's Fake Out and with Kang it actually deals good damage. Kang has too much of 4MSS for Protect. Protect is still good, though much of its merit comes from the surprise of Kang not normally using it. Once revealed, however, it doesn't shine as much, and overall Fake Out > Protect. Protect should reside in AC.
????????? Protect has the same usage for kanga as every other mon and although fake out support is nice, it tends to often be feared and protected against thus making protect on kanga a viable option. Fake out in general is better than protect hence the first slash.

Power-Up Punch to help sweep. If not using Kang to sweep and using it more so for raw damage, Low Kick is the better option to get Fighting-type coverage. It pairs best with Double-Edge, as Double-Edge recoil doesn't pair well with PuP, akin to what v said.
Done. Prolly too hard to do some complex thing/making a new set where mentioning how Double edge + low kick is preferable or whatnot.

Scrappy > Inner Focus. I find I'm more likely to find myself in a scenario wanting to Fake Out a Ghost-type than in one with which to abuse Inner Focus without Mega evolving, as Kang is faster than the most other commonly used Fake Out Pokemon, Hitmontop and Scrafty.
Other way around more likely. The only time that you'd want to actually fake out a ghost is er against full/semi tr which is a rarely seen archetype in comparison to rain and mew. Not to mention that scrafty and top aren't exactly common/good in the current metagame. Due to this reasoning, inner focus is preferred over scrappy, also losing speed ties suck ass against opposing kanga.
BLOOD TOTEM 's bulky EV spread should be in AC. Kang is still used pretty similarly when it has both a 252/252 spread and a more bulky spread, so there's no need for two separate sets.

Ice Punch is iffy. It's making Kang worse just for Lando-T, but Lando-T is so common it does pay off. I argue that a good Lando-T player should not be letting itself get hit by Ice Punch in the first place (either scout for it, or badly dent Kang with Superpower which is pretty common on the Scarf set). I feel it should be the first option in OO, but I know other QC members disgress, so I can settle for it in AC. I do know that you want it in OO Haruno too.
Addressed already in my previous post. Lando-t can't switch in on kanga at all since -1 return/double edge hurt like hell which leaves it in sucker punch range and +1 sucker punch is kinda painful for it. No point running ice punch when your stab hits it hard enough already. It really isn't that viable since it limits kanga considerably to run it.

Drain Punch can also go in OO as an alternative over Low Kick.
Drain punch is kinda iffy and judging from past spl/tour games, it really isn't that impressive since the healing tends to be marginal and doesn't make up the lost power or the inability to sweep.


Implemented the changes that made sense though. QC ready.
 

Darkmalice

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Finally got around to given this a proper check Haruno with my usual "head-to-toe" read through
Overview
-Fake Out does more than chip damage; the damage is respectable
-Mention PuP after Fake Out. Not every Kang uses PuP and Fake Out, so they should go after the stats which define Kang more. Fake Out mentioned before PuP as it defines Kang more
-We should mention some more downsides to it other than just its Normal type. Mention at the end that it dislikes burn and Intimidate, but it can get around Intimidate with PuP
-Also mention that the standard moveset can't touch Ghost-types outside Sucker Punch

Moves
-can mention that Protect can take people by surprise as people generally expect Fake Out in its place
-Return is 102 base stab attack, not 100. it also doesn't have essentially no drawback; it has no drawback
-mention PuP chip damage is also handy, particularly if you are certain that it can grab a KO
-Low Kick hits most of its intended targets for high damage, but some Pokemon hit for not much damage like Scrafty

Set details
-can mention Adamant also gels better with Sucker Punch

Usage tips
-the scariest things about Mega Kang is all the mindgames it poses simultaneously. It simultanouesly poses the threat of hitting hard with Return/Double Edge, setting up with PuP, or aiding its ally with Fake Out. you've said these things independently, but together makes Kang threatening and creates mind games with it These are in addition to the Sucker Punch mind games.
-only use PuP if you can make use of the +2 boost and avoid being forced out. Also remove the part about it being the most threatening move
-can also mention PuP on your teammate if you predict a double Protect
-can be used in all early game to help set up momentum or late game for a sweep
Team options
-Bisharp also threatens Ghost-types who can be problematic for Kang
-Redirectors also help Kang set up PuP, and Kang's Fake Out helps them use Spore or Tailwind respectively
-Similarly Fake Out also helps set up sweepers set up
OO
-Hammer Arm if paired with a TR user e.g. semi-TR, as Kang then can work both outside and inside TR
-I'm going to remention Drain Punch

Drain punch is kinda iffy and judging from past spl/tour games, it really isn't that impressive since the healing tends to be marginal and doesn't make up the lost power or the inability to sweep.
This is why it's OO material as opposed to on the set. We're pretty leniant with including stuff in OO (if it's viable, it should be mentioned). It's meant to be a Low Kick that deals less damage but gets some healing. It's always better if you'd get the KO with both moves, such as Bisharp who is always OHKOed.

Checks and counters
-
Bulky Fighting types that can live a hit and threaten to ohko in return are also a huge threat to kangaskhan.
The only common one is Conkeldurr
-Mention Fighting-types that outspeed and OHKO it like Keldeo and Mega Gallade. Special mention to Terrakion for resisting Kang's STAB
-Steel-types that don't fear Kang's coverage attacks also fair well, like Mega Mawile and Mega Scizor
-Mega Diancie too, 2HKOes Kang with Diamond Storm, avoids a 2HKO from even Double Edge if it nabs a Def boost before being hit, outspeeds and doens't fear Sucker Punch

EDIT - Add burns to Intimidate, specifically mention Ghost-types with WoW. Gengar, Sableye

Under Intimidate, Scarf Lando-T commonly carries Superpower which has a 31.3% chance to OHKO to OHKO 4 HP Kang

Don't need the Speed tab. All your examples fit better under Typing Advantage. Mons that outspeed kang and resist Sucker Punch aren't necessarily checks to it too; they need to take its STAB. Pokemon like Weavile fail this criteria, and even others like Thundurus have bigger concerns than Sucker Punch

Add a miscellanous tab for Rocky Helmet (example user Amoonguss, which can also redirect) and abilities that damage on contact (Garchomp, Ferrothorn). Even though they're as not common as what they used to be, they're still viable
 
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Darkmalice

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Haruno at the very least, update the stuff you want to update

Like for example screw Milotic/Tornadus (to be fair, i was half mentioning stuff cause Team Options was pretty bare, and yeah Kang can get past Intimidate attackers)

This has been laying dormant for a while; let's get this done :)
 
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