Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]

[Darknut07]

I believe Mega-Kangaskhan should stay in OU. This is not because I do not believe is broken, but rather I because I do not have enough evidence to conclude otherwise. The argument I hear most often (with every suspect test) is the number of counters it has, but I believe this is a case of a pokemon that is relatively easy to play around. Sucker Punch is as unreliable as priority gets. Till now, I've had no problem playing around it and I'm going to tell you why this example of anecdotal evidence is ok for this discussion: we have little objective data. We have not had a suspect test, we have not had objective usage data and most importantly we have not had time for even our anecdotal evidence to solidify. In the case of the other two bans, I can conceive of the possibility that they were obviously broken, but I cannot for this one. Theorymon before the metagame has settled is useless - we do not know what the legitimate threats are, what pokemon can counter certain threats while performing other useful functions; we aren't even sure what pokemon will have what moves after breeding! All we have is individual anecdotal evidence, and in my experience it isn't obviously broken.

 

[pkmntrainertom1]

While i'm new to the game, a close combat from mega pinsir or, a conkeldurr after pokebank are great counters to this thing. I think it needs more time in OU

 

[pkmntrainertom1]

While i'm new to the game, a close combat from mega pinsir or, a conkeldurr after pokebank are great counters to this thing. I think it needs more time in OU

and i'm sure there are more counters to this thing anyway

 

[Ryolain]

and i'm sure there are more counters to this thing anyway

Neither of these can safely switch in. They're revenge killers at best.

 

[WebBowser]

On Pokemon Showdown's OU board, we basically said that there were two counters, sableye and cofag. Sableye for prankster WoW and taking neutral damage from everything but unmegaevoed pup, and cofag not because of being a bulky ghost (though it helps), but because of mummy, which removes parental bond. Mummy + burn forces mega khan to swap out because it loses most of its sweeping ability while still being unable to setup further on the enemy. (for the record, both pokes counter the siesmic toss set too with taunt and mummy respectively)

That being said, that's a grand total of TWO POKEMON! Even if we grant that sableye and cofag are good pokemon (not saying this btw), that is still a mere two pokemon that can switch into a mega kahn and hope to cripple it. That's cripple, not kill. All the things that can kill it are checks because there is nothing out there that can swap into it and even have a prayer of living the next attack + sucker punch, regardless of the move they swap into.

So mega kanga is uber

 

[pkmntrainertom1]

Neither of these can safely switch in. They're revenge killers at best.

Good point. But Gengar as well counters this thing, no?

 

[GoldenSandslash15]

After reading through this thread and hearing the arguments brought up, I would like to reverse my opinion and put the Kangaskhanite in Ubers.

Arcticblast's post, as well as the people who posted damage calcs, make a VERY good case for a ban, and should be read by anyone who would otherwise want to keep Kangaskhanite in OU.

 

[Magnemite]

and i'm sure there are more counters to this thing anyway

...Care to provide any examples? No? Why not? That's because there really aren't any. The only things that can stop it in any way have to practically die themselves every single time in order to do so. It's very unhealthy for the metagame to have something anywhere near as restrictive to teambuilding as this running around.

 

[Orga777]

Good point. But Gengar as well counters this thing, no?

HAHAHAHAHAHA! No. Crunch demolishes Gengar BAD. Gengar was my go-to as well. Even Mega-Gar is worthless up against M-Kanga.

 

[Ryolain]

Good point. But Gengar as well counters this thing, no?

Please read through the rest of the thread and the Kangaskhan thread before posting stuff like this.

 

[PokemonMasterDebater]

Parental Bond was recently banned in Balanced Hackmons because of how it interacted with the moves Super Fang, Seismic Toss and Night Shade, (the first two of which, Kangaskahn will have access to after Pokebank is relesed). Seismic Toss deals exactly 200 hp worth of damage, meaning that any non ghost type with less than 100 base HP max investment is going to be 2HKO'd. Parental Bond Super Fang will reduce the target's HP to 75% of what is was before. Not even Chancy can evade a 2HKO after Fang+Toss, with no prior damage and max HP investment. Also can smack ghosts on the switch with Crunch. The only way to prevent Kang from trading at least 1 for 1 once it gets these moves, is to have your opponent play sub optimally.

Ban Kangaskhanite now before it's too late!

 

[ROBx4]

Good point. But Gengar as well counters this thing, no?

sub disable Gengar can counter iff khan doesn't have crunch or a coverage move the hits neutral. Focus blast can and probably will miss as well

 

[Gary]

Alright so there's isn't much else to say about this monster because my boy Halcyon basically said it all, but I'd like to give my personal thoughts on this monster.

Okay, no offence to anyone who is against banning this thing, but I'm sorry, I just can't begin to fathom how any regularly competitive or well seasoned OU player can even argue that Mega Kanga isn't broken. There is absolutely nothing OU viable that can completely stop this thing cold, and it even has all the tools it needs to beat pretty much everything that would even ATTEMPT to counter Mega Kanga. It is, in simplest terms, the epitome of a perfect sweeper. It has everything it could ever want; decent Speed, a boosting move that's equivalent to Swords Dance AND actually deals damage, an incredibly powerful STAB, ONE weakness, higher bulk than Jirachi and Celebi, coverage moves like Crunch, Fire Punch, and EQ to beat all of its common counters, and Sucker Punch to deal with faster Pokemon. It forces every team to run multiple checks and answers to it; Rocky Helmet is basically a staple on most teams. Once it gets at +2, which isn't hard at all to do, there's pretty much nothing that can keep it from just OHKOing a huge portion of the tier with an un-STAB priority move. It barely even needs any support to sweep, which 99% of all sweepers need some kind of team support to succeed. With the exception of a few Rocky Helmet Pokemon, there really isn't anything stopping Mega Kanga from just beginning to wreck shop Turn 1. It's just that stupid.

Oh, and I just really don't understand where some people are coming from with the "it can't take hits" argument. Hmmm... let's see:

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 283-335 (80.3 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 278-330 (78.9 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 242-283 (68.7 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 318-375 (90.3 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Needs SR to guarantee a KO...just wow)

My god this thing is frail as fuck. It barely tanks an Adamant LO Technician Breloom Mach Punch! In all seriousness though, this thing is far from not being bulky. It's bulkier than Jirachi, which hard enough to KO in one shot on its own. The more annoying part about this thing is that it's only weak to ONE type, making it that much harder to revenge kill. Being as bulky as it is, it's not like something with a un-STAB Fighting-type coverage can revenge kill Mega Kanga that easily, or any sort of move for that matter. There's like nothing in this metagame that can eat up a +2 Sucker Punch AND than proceed to OHKO it with a STAB move, barring a few Fighting-types like Terrakion, Keldeo, Cobalion, Mega Lucario etc. So basically, you're forced to not only run something like Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn or Skarmory on your team, BUT you also need to run some kind of decently fast, somewhat bulky Fighting-type to just check this brute. Mega Kanga just really limits the ability to build teams IMO, because without running several things to handle it, you're pretty much always going to lose to a good player that knows how to use it. You just have to over prepare for it if you want to have a chance at not being swept by it often, and even then it's always threatening, no matter how hard you try to prepare for it.

Like I said, there really isn't much else I can say without sounding like a broken record, but seriously, this thing is probably one of the most broken Pokemon I've ever seen in OU this generation thus far. Mega Gengar was ridiculous because it was able to trap so many things successfully and allow for its teammates to sweep with ease, but Mega Kangaskhan is pretty much a One Man Army that can sweep all kinds of teams with VERY little support, if any. I refuse to defend a Pokemon that can OHKO basically everything in the tier with just one turn of set up, and lacks any sort of reliable counters, checks, or answers. It's broken in every sense of the word.

Please get this shit out of OU.

 

[Bedschibaer]

and i'm sure there are more counters to this thing anyway

look up what a counter is first, then we can talk.

 

[Mettie7]

This is starting to feel like a treadmill. A Mega is too powerful and gets banned, so another powerful Mega rises in usage and becomes overcentralizing, so it needs to banned too.

Which Mega will take the place of Kangaskhan?

Tbh, I think we knew about M-Gengar's and M-Kanga's potential around the same time, and then PUP became a thing and gave it a SD that does damage. I like to think M-Gengar was banned first bc it's stats just instantly jumped out at everyone and we're like "oh, look at that guy." If it isn't banned, the entire metagame will be centralized around it and every team will have counters (or attempts at counters) for it and idk about you but I don't want a game where EVERYONE has a M-Kangaskhan and a Sableye on their team.

So yeah...tl;dr Mega Kangaskhan is a fucking broken piece of shit.

 

[Jayd]

Mega Kangaskhan is without a doubt the most "broken" Pokemon that Gen VI gave us. I would go as far as to say it is even more "broken," in the conventional sense, than Mega Gengar. When I think about why Mega Gengar was broken, it falls under more of an "uncompetitive" section. It was broken because it made things easier for another Pokemon. It was able to trap any given wall, eliminate it, and then something like Garchomp could sweep the opponent's team without any issue.

But Mega Kangaskhan doesn't need a trapper. It barely needs any support at all. It plows through teams like it's nothing, and the only teams it doesn't breeze through, only withstand it because they have 2-3 Pokemon dedicated to beating it. And I don't mean something like running Rotom-W + Latias in Gen V to beat Keldeo, either. No, these Pokemon are specifically used because they are somewhat able to check Mega Kangaskhan. Teams will often run Sableye + Rocky Helmet Skarmory in order to survive this thing. I mean, the mere fact that Sableye is even being considered should show how much of an unhealthy influence this thing has on the meta. The fact that Pokemon like Garchomp and Ferrothorn are running Rocky Helmet more often than not is sickening. There are much MUCH better items for these Pokemon to run, but they are basically forced to run a substandard item (not necessarily bad, just non-optimal) because it gives you a slim chance to weakening Mega Kangaskhan.

To sum it up: Mega Kangaskhan is broken because of a few reasons:

1) Mega Kangaskhan puts a heavy strain on team building (it chooses its counters).
As I mentioned above, many teams are forced to run 2-3 specific counters to Mega Kangaskhan in order to beat it. The reason people are forced to run Sableye + Skarmory on a team in order to beat it is that Mega Kangaskhan has three slots that are a given (Return, PuP, and Sucker Punch). The Final slot is yours to choose, and each move will change what can counter it. Chose Earthquake to hit Aegislash, Heatran, etc., but this leaves it vulnerable to Pokemon like Gourgeist, Sub Disable Gengar, and Skarmory. But if you choose Crunch, you can hit all of the latter Pokemon for 2HKOs (yes even Skarmory can be 2HKOed by +2 Crunch, which forces it to Roost after it attempts to phaze you out). Heaven forbid you run into a Kangaskhan using Fire Punch, which cleanly 2HKOs Skarmory regardless, as well as hitting Gourgeist, Ferrothorn, and Trevenant as well. People often name Sableye as the be all and end all of Mega Kangaskhan counters, but I have a few issues with that. First of all, Sableye blows. Second, it's 2HKOed by Earthquake. This also forces it to Recover or risk losing to Mega Kangaskan at a later time (it can WoW, but if Mega Kangaskhan switches out on the WoW to something that forces out Sableye ala Heatran, then it is no longer a counter). In short, there is NOTHING that can counter Mega Kangaskhan. Nothing can switch into any of its sets with impunity and continually force it out. "Continually" is the key word there. Like Tornadus-T from last gen, Mega Kangaskhan has little issue wearing down its counters over the course of a battle. This obviously puts a huge amount of strain on team building, as it forces you to run multiple specific checks just to hope to beat it.

2) Mega Kangaskhan has the bulk, pre-evo ability, and speed to easily find setup opportunities
It's no secret that Parental Bond is what makes Mega Kangaskhan the terror that it is. But that's not to discount how important its other characteristics are. The bulk is huge, in my opinion. It's increase to 105/100/100 defenses (making it bulkier than Jirachi and Celebi .-.) allows Mega Kangaskhan ample time to set up. It can even survive Technician Breloom's Mach Punch if it has to (though PuP on the switch + Sucker Punch would also KO it, although this isn't likely as Breloom won't really switch in). It even has a chance to survive SPECS Draco Meteor from Latios with zero investment (not really relevant, just a surprising calc). This is a Pokemon who only has one immunity and no resistances, and yet it's still able to tank hits like those and KO back if it has to with absolutely no investment. Another great aspect of Mega Kangaskhan is it's ability before it evolves: Scrappy. Hitting Sableye for 50% with Return as it switches into you is hilarious. Hitting Aegislash with PuP and then Crunch for the OHKO is also hilarious. There is literally nothing that stops it from boosting. There are things which have a chance to deal with it after it boosts, but nothing can stop it from actually happening. It's Speed, while not perfect, still puts it at a great tier especially considering it's access to Sucker Punch, meaning Latios, Starmie, Alakazam, Gengar, and other faster threats still have to watch out for it. This makes it incredibly easy for Mega Kangaskhan to sweep teams, since it has no difficulty getting to +2. I mean, this is a Pokemon that can OHKO Hippowdon at +2. Insane.

3) Mega Kangaskhan requires little-to-no support
Often times people will be so afraid of Mega Kangaskhan when seeing it in Team Preview that they fail to concern themselves with the five other Pokemon Kangaskhan brought with it. That's because it's basically a one woman army. It breaks through cores that at one point were seen as incredibly effective (think CeleTran) as if they were nothing. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that simply beating outdated defensive cores makes something broken, it's more that usually they become outdated because of a new wallbreaker. But Mega Kangaskhan isn't a wallbreaker; it's a sweeper that just happens to blow apart defensive cores anyway. You can bring Magnezone to trap Skarmory if you want to, but honestly, you can just run Fire Punch to beat it anyway. You can run Pursuit trap Tyranitar to trap Trevenant, but you could just run Crunch instead. As I said before, there is no real counter to Mega Kangashkan already, even discounting the five other Pokemon it can have to support it. Add that in, and there is nothing that can stop it from sweeping. The only way you really "beat" Mega Kangaskhan is if the player using it misplays, or you get lucky. Mega Kangaskhan is just such a low risk, high reward Pokemon that it breaks the game.

So yeah...tl;dr Mega Kangaskhan is a fucking broken piece of shit.

I think this post does a good job of summing up the major points. I'd like to add my experience with Mega Kangaskhan to reinforce it.

One of the first Pokemon I trained was a Gourgeist who acted as my only physical wall for a while, so early in the metagame Megakhan was a pushover in my eyes. Whenever I saw it on a team I would say "good, as long as I keep Gourgeist alive this is a 6 on 5".

That all changed the first time I got a Crunch in my face. Now it was no longer safe to switch into a Kangaskhan with any Pokemon in my collection. I also have a Sableye but it's not a permanant fixture in my teams obviously. That's obvious because this game is no longer enjoyable if you have no freedom to use the Pokemon you want to (within a limited spectrum of viability) but are forced to use specific Pokemon just in case you stumble across specific threats. Even when Gourgeist and Trevenant were effective counters, that still left only three to speak of.

As for the necessity of a counter, I discovered that the first time I encountered one of these monsters without one of my ghosts. I felt that sinking feeling looking at my team (still fully capable, none fainted, all at decent health) and realized that none of them could switch into a PuP and take a follow up move (including Sucker Punch if they outsped). I got destroyed. The same thing happened in the next game. It's then that I fully appreciated the cancer that this Pokemon is in the metagame.

Since then my heart has been in my hands whenever I enter a game without Sableye. I usually cross my fingers and hope that I can pull something fancy using two priority users including my Ambipom who can fake out, switch out, and come in and do it again (sacrificing another team member in the process). The pressure has lead to me feeling inconfident in teams that should be very solid simply because they do not have a dedicated Kangaskhan counter (Sableye).

This situation makes the game less enjoyable as a whole from the teambuilding stage and onwards. I fully expect the council to make the correct decision and ban Kangaskhanite.

 

[Haruno]

Parental Bond was recently banned in Balanced Hackmons because of how it interacted with the moves Super Fang, Seismic Toss and Night Shade, (the first two of which, Kangaskahn will have access to after Pokebank is relesed). Seismic Toss deals exactly 200 hp worth of damage, meaning that any non ghost type with less than 100 base HP max investment is going to be 2HKO'd. Parental Bond Super Fang will reduce the target's HP to 75% of what is was before. Not even Chancy can evade a 2HKO after Fang+Toss, with no prior damage and max HP investment. Also can smack ghosts on the switch with Crunch. The only way to prevent Kang from trading at least 1 for 1 once it gets these moves, is to have your opponent play sub optimally.

Ban Kangaskhanite now before it's too late!

It doesn't get super fang.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I think it would be better to have a testing period, like how we did it in Gen 4 and onward. It is one thing to post calcs on a board, but another to test it. No offense to people here, but to me the Smogon community seems a bit ban-happy...

Plus it'll build us better as a community and such. Plus hype too...

 

[sofaturtles]

In my experience, a MegaKhan using the most common set (Return/PuP/EQ/SuckerPunch) is very easy to deal with, especially with a bulky ghost type such as Trevanent or Gourgeist. However, if it goes out of its way to fit crunch onto the set (ex. replacing Sucker Punch with Crunch) it is not even beaten by priority. At +2, MegaKhan still threatens to OHKO priority users with Crunch and STAB Return with most priority failing to OHKO.

+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 585-690 (144.8 - 170.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 120-142 (34.1 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 318-375 (92.4 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 162-192 (46.1 - 54.7%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 257-304 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 228-270 (64.9 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 508-598 (122.7 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I support the ban of Kangaskhanite with some suspect testing. I doesn't exactly feel right without testing it first. Right now I feel we're just theorymoning.

 

[Skyblade12]

I personally believe that Mega Kangaskhan is extremely broken, and every team needs to run a counter just for this. As a result, it is my belief that...

IT SHOULD STAY IN OU.

Yes, really. Let me explain.

The reason being that it uses up your Mega Evolution slot, and by banning it, you overcentralize the metagame again. Think about it. Before Gengarite was banned, everyone used their Mega Evolution slot on Gengar, with a few using it on other pokes. Gengar was the best Mega (besides Mewtwo/Blaziken, which are ban-worthy even without Mega Evolution).

Then Gengarite was banned, so everyone who did have Mega Gengar on their team switched to using other Megas, most notably Mega Kangaskhan. The gameplay of the tier has shifted. Rather than trying to counter Mega Gengar, everyone just shifted to countering Mega Kangaskhan instead. Because that is what became necessary.

If Kangaskhanite is banned, then who's to say that these same people won't switch over to Mega Lucario (great attacking stats and Adaptability) or Mega Mawile (105 Huge Power!) or Mega Medicham (a better movepool and is faster than Mega Mawile, albeit less bulky)? Heck, even Mega Heracross probably gets enough use to the point that it's (probably) not going to be in UU. And we just ban Mega Stone after Mega Stone until there's nothing left. Mega Evolution, which is supposed to be the gimmick that separates Gen VI from Gen V, will be regulated to Ubers-only play before too long.

I worry that if we go ban happy on Mega Stones, we open up this very real possibility. And thus, this new gameplay mechanic will go largely unexplored (as a majority of users prefer to play OU over Ubers). And since this is something that Smogon has no history of dealing with, I feel that we should think about this before jumping to any conclusions.

Is Mega Kangaskhan broken, even for a Mega? Maybe. But until we do more extensive testing on Mega Evolutions, I don't think that we can say that for sure, so I don't think that the Kangaskhanite should be banned right now. Maybe after a suspect test, I will be proven wrong. At that point, I will no longer object to the ban.

This is not a valid argument. We do not ban things based on their usage. We ban them based on how broken they are and how much they change the metagame. Mega-Gengar was broken. It completely dominated teams, and ruined entire play styles. That got it banned. If, in fact, Mega-Kangaskhan's usage increased after the Mega-Gengar ban, so what? No one has to run a Mega-Evolution. The only reason Mega-Kangaskhan is receiving so much usage is not because it is the only viable Mega-Evolution, but rather because it is overpowered as heck, and there has been a reduction in competition for overpowered Pokémon (which is NOT the same thing as a reduction in competition for Megas). Ban Mega-Kangaskhan. Ban Mega-Lucario if it's broken (not advocating that, just using it as an example for this discussion). Do you think anyone is suddenly going to pack their teams with Mega-Manectric or Mega-Houndoom, even if those two were the only Mega-Evolutions left? No. Because they aren't broken. Even if Mega-Kangaskhan was banned, we would possibly see Mega-Lucario up for a ban, and no other Mega-Evolutions.

Do you know what else gives evidence against this argument? The fact that all three of these Mega-Evolutions (Gengar, Kangaskhan, and Lucario), all had people calling for bans, even before Mega-Gengar was first considered. Mega-Kangaskhan is not being considered because we got rid of Mega-Gengar. It's being considered because it is broken, overpowered, and dominates the metagame.

And, frankly, the argument "why are we letting such an interesting new addition to the mechanics go to waste" is, again, a bad one. Yes, it's new. Which means, like 90% of the new additions to the Pokémon series, it is unrefined and unbalanced. We'll undoubtedly get more Mega-Evolutions (we already know the Mega-Lati@s are on the way), and I'm guessing we'll get refinements to the ones that currently exist as GameFreak realizes just how idiotic some of the decisions they made were. Sure, we all know that GameFreak never retroactively changes a... Oh, right, Steel type versus Ghost and Dark. Shadow Tag Chandelure. Just to name two right off the top of my head, among countless other changes made this generation. Even if we did ban every Mega Stone (and note that, despite your claim, the only one which might possibly get banned is one which is already being called for a ban), so what? Smogon is a competitive community. If the Mega Stones unbalance competition, they should be banned. Ingenuity and innovation is only welcome as long as it benefits a healthy, stable, and competitive metagame.

Seismic Toss will do only 150 in Lvl 100 battles and 75 in Lvl 50 battles.

I believe that Mega-Kanga should stay in OU. Unlike cousin Mega Gengar, you actually can switch out into another Pokemon, and your not locked into any Shadow Tags. If you play your cards right and your team is built to counter a significant amount of the new and old threats of OU, I don't see why he shouldn't be allowed in this tier. Sure, you can say "omg he's broken he hits twice", and yeah his Atk is pretty high, but with the right support there are ways around him. Every team should be prepared for strong hitters, not just M-Kanga. Ghosts, Substitute, Rough Skin/Iron Barbs, Rocky Helmet, PP Stalling, Status (burn/toxic/twave/sleep) and even Entry Hazards easily deal with M-Kanga. If you have a problem with Mega Kanga, I suggest you spend a little bit more time in the teambuilder tab.

The mechanic is this: Parental Bond cuts the Base Power of the second move in half. Thus, on the second hit, Power-Up Punch is using 20 BP instead of 40. Seismic Toss does not use BP, but rather has set damage. Therefore, it is immune to the damage-reduction, until such time as GameFreak chooses to adjust the mechanics.

Also, I just want to say, if I see one more person saying that Substitute does anything against Mega-Kangaskhan, I am going to scream. Substitute is worthless against him. Is there any Substitute in the game that will not be broken by Mega-Kangaskhan's first hit?

I actually have never had to build my team around countering this thing, as my favorite spin blocker, Dusclops handles this guy like a beast, and honestly, it's not too hard to predict khans moves and switch in a ghost type, especially with defensive ghosts like Confagrius and Dusclops. I've only had a khan get a +2 off once, and then i easily revenged it with choice banded mach punch conkledurr. We ban things to Ubers based on their ability to disrupt the OU metagame, like mega Gengar who was banned Not because of it's sweeping ability, but it's ability to trap and kill checks and countersto allow something else to sweep.

Actually, there are several banning criteria. Mega-Gengar was banned under the Support Criteria. There is also a criteria for Sweepers, as well as one for walls. Supporting other team members is not the only way a Pokémon can be banned. Do you really think that Deoxys-A or Xerneas were banned because of their incredible team support potential?

Scrappy khan can't do anything worthwhile with normal Khans stats. Its not realistic. I can switch in any moderately bulky ghost, take anything from it, and burn it with ease crippling it, and sometimes for fun cursing it.

It can hit ghosts with Power-Up Punch, which is all it really needs to do. After a Power-Up Punch, can you name a ghost that won't get one-shotted by Mega-Kanga's Crunch?

And, again, ghosts are not that common.

If the checks are taken off the field in any match, anything can sweep. Thats a redundant point. Khan should not be banned because, while it is quite powerful it does not break the metagame in the way M-gar did, WHICH WAS NOT FOR IT'S SWEEPING ABILITY, but for it's shadow tag trapping ability. Same with Lucario. Rocky helmet on any defensive check has always been common, not centralizing. it's about as centralizing as rain Keldeo. Which is arguable responsible for bring gastrodon into Usage. Something funny, if you give anything set up it crushes. So please stop assuming it gets set up. It reminds me of cloyster: Decent bulk, and demolishes when you set it up, but weak to priority.

Can somebody present a legitimate argument proving that M-Khan is OP without factoring things like set up, which is pointless to bring up because if anything sets up it wins. DD dragonite for example. If you let a D-nite get set up without touching it, which is what most people on this thread are suggesting khan can do, D-nite sweeps. So does Khan. The closest thing i see to a legitimate argument is when people bring up the calcs of how Khan can kill things after setting up with massive power, and then talking about how it's bulk allows it to be uneasily revenged. But how would this thing get a plus 2 without taking prior damage? Against a decent player, IT WOULDN'T, allowing it to be revenged by most priority, especially with most priority users being resistent to suckr punch. The opponent would have to be stupid for that to happen. The rest I can see so far is people whining "LOL OP" Thats it.

You're right, it doesn't break the metagame in the same way Mega-Gengar does. It breaks it in the same way Xerneas does. Or Deoxys Attack does. Or Kyogre does. It breaks the metagame by completely destroying pretty much the entire OU tier all by itself. It breaks the metagame by forcing people to run multiple counters to it (which will wind up with the Mega-Kangaskhan player winning just because the match becomes 3 on 5, at best, after Mega-Kangaskhan and its counters are out of the way).


Also, there is a reason which has not yet been brought up as an in-depth point of discussion, but which I feel deserves to be mentioned. Kangaskhan is the most pathetically easy Pokémon to use in the current metagame. There is no strategy, there is no thought. This is really the only Pokémon that you can just rip a set straight from the analysis, throw it into any situation, and still pretty much win. You just run your attacks and Power-Up Punch, and you achieve victory. Mega-Kangaskhan is going to kill at least one Pokémon, even in the worst of circumstances, being used by a player with no thought or skill at all.

 

[Chaoswalker]

How I kill every mega kahn.
1. Keldeo with +1 behind a sub has kahn enter on him. That happens with unskilled players.
2. I burn it with Heatran who takes the first powerup punch easily thanks to def evs, and then I spam protect and switch between Heatran and Amoonguss until one of the two die and Scizor enters to revenge.
Those are the ONLY way I can kill Mega Kahn safely, if you call purposely sac'ing a wall safe. I paralyzed it once, and that turned out to be less effective than burning it. Oh, and of course that's when I'm lucky enough for it to NOT have earthquake. Why not spore you say? Gee, I hope he stays asleep long enough for me to enter Thundurus without getting him sucker punched. On the other hand, how many mons can enter on Return as well as defensive steels can? Basically, if mega kahn enters things will die regardless of where I stand in the battle.

Insta-ban? I'm not sure, I mean I DO manage to kill the thing over 50% of the time but on the other hand... what is this insane gimmick strategy?

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

This is starting to feel like a treadmill. A Mega is too powerful and gets banned, so another powerful Mega rises in usage and becomes overcentralizing, so it needs to banned too.

Which Mega will take the place of Kangaskhan?

So far, only Mega Gengar has really been banned: Blaziken was ubers last gen, it doesn't really count.

While I understand your line of thought, I don't think it's very valid. There's really no other Mega that's anywhere near as bulky, hits as hard, has so few counters, has a powerful priority move, and BREAKS SUBS AND SASH.

Also, the only reason why people are hopping from one powerful mega to the next is because there's a mentality going around that every team needs a mega, and obviously a lot of people will automatically gravitate towards the strongest one. If Khan gets banned, there's simply no other Mega Pokemon that really stands out to me as being massively more powerful than anything else.

Furthermore, even if more megas do get banned, it's illogical to think that we'll eventually ban even MOST Mega forms. Nearly all of them have some sort of weakness or conventional and common counter that's not hard to stick into any team.

Mega Lucario has already been mentioned as the next to go if Khan gets banned, but the thing is frail as shit and its priority moves are nowhere near as powerful. It's also has two more weaknesses (both very common) than Khan.

 

[Torkoals]

Its interesting to see a normal type mon, a type with seemingly terrible STAB, rise to such heights in the OU metagame. If anything, that speaks to its brokeness-- mega kanga is way overpowered, to the extent where it can spam attacks and 2HKO/OHKO much of the metagame.
Cofagrigus and Sableye have been proposed as kanga's only counters. if it really has come down to two counters that both rely on just being able to render kaga's attacks not so powerful, not even taking it down, then its obvious kanga should be Uber.

 

[SuperMeep]

Why do we just assume khan would be at +2 with NO PRIOR DAMAGE. Thats unrealistic. What is more realistic is khan getting a power punch up, taking damage, killing something and being revenged by something like Lucario, conkledurr or breloom. Thats it. Its also about as centralizing as Keldeo was last gen. The reason we ban things is because they break the metagame. Such as M-gars ability to freely pick off mons. Khan just has a lot of power, and can break subs. If we are worried about something with mediocre bulk breaking subs then go ban Mega-Heracross, or Cloyster. Thats a reduntant point.

 

[LordRandomness]

So far, only Mega Gengar has really been banned: Blaziken was ubers last gen, it doesn't really count.

While I understand your line of thought, I don't think it's very valid. There's really no other Mega that's anywhere near as bulky, hits as hard, has so few counters, has a powerful priority move, and BREAKS SUBS AND SASH.

Also, the only reason why people are hopping from one powerful mega to the next is because there's a mentality going around that every team needs a mega, and obviously a lot of people will automatically gravitate towards the strongest one. If Khan gets banned, there's simply no other Mega Pokemon that really stands out to me as being massively more powerful than anything else.

Furthermore, even if more megas do get banned, it's illogical to think that we'll eventually ban even MOST Mega forms. Nearly all of them have some sort of weakness or conventional and common counter that's not hard to stick into any team.

Mega Lucario has already been mentioned as the next to go if Khan gets banned, but the thing is frail as shit and its priority moves are nowhere near as powerful. It's also has two more weaknesses (both very common) than Khan.

Mega Lucario's priority isn't THAT much weaker than Megakhan's. It makes up for a lack of Parental Bond with a considerably higher Attack stat and a lack of 80 BP with STAB Adaptability. Add increased reliability and the option to use either Vacuum Wave or Mach Punch or even Extremespeed (allowing for significant versatility regarding the priority options Mega Lucario has available) and their priority power is relatively comparable.