Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]

[Azure Demon]

Ok I am actually at a stand still for this because I do understand how extremely powerful this guy is and I'm honestly leaning toward the uber vote but I also think if we gave it time we may be able to adapt.

As I said I am primarily going ubers and my reason for it is it's simply too powerful of a sweeper. Mega kanga has a free life orb, a damage dealing stat boosting move that Is a sure fire boost every time, multi hit properties making subs irrelevant and also abilities that require full life are also shut down (multi scale, sturdy), and MK is at the 100 base speed mark which is really great for a powerful priority user. At the 100 base speed mark anything slower than it gets either set up on via power up punch then hit with a ridiculous return, earthquake, crunch or whatever and most things faster than it are also frail and susceptible to be destroyed by a sucker punch especially after being boosted.

Return is an absolute nightmare at +2 destroying any and everything even massive walls like skarm get two shotted by it (if adamant without rocks or with rocks if jolly) that is an absurd amount of power for one of OU's premier defensive walls.

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 151-178 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 138-162 (41.3 - 48.5%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Jaiho]

I think it would be better to have a testing period, like how we did it in Gen 4 and onward. It is one thing to post calcs on a board, but another to test it. No offense to people here, but to me the Smogon community seems a bit ban-happy...

Plus it'll build us better as a community and such. Plus hype too...

This is the quick-ban period, where only clearly broken things is considered for a ban. The same thing happened at the beginning of last gen, with Shaymin-S, Darkrai, Manaphy, and others being sent straight to ubers.

 

[SuperMeep]

Can we have some calcs that show khan at about 60% hp against priority if we are going to include Khan with +2 attack. Also some calcs on how Conkledurr and his priority friends take a plus 2 sucker punch. Cause i know luc can.

 

[Rexxx]

My opinion is clear, banned.

MKanga is probably the most solid sweeper in the actual Metagame with good Atk and respetable Spe, Def and SpDef and a very good movepool with access to Sucker Punch.

The fact is his ability, Parental Bond which means that is a banded Pokemon without been blocked in one move, taking off Focus Shash, Substitutes and Sturdy abilities.

With only 1 weekness and 1 inmunity, Kanga could come to a week attack and then Mega Evolve with a Power Up Ounch, which means +2 to Atk. MKanga is one of few Mon that can Boost while attack the enemy, so with two attacks means +4 that is threatening.

Someone could think about Aegislash, however, MKanga learns earthquake so his coverage is incredible. Also, it is dificult to Revenge Kill because of double Sucker punch, and a +4 or even a +2 Sucker Punch with priority is no joke.

Spanish version:

Mi opinión es clara, Baneado.

MKanga es probablemente el sweeper más sólido del Metagame debido a sus parámetros en ataque, velocidad y defensas muy bien equilibrados todos, además de un gran movepool que le da la posibilidad de tener una gran cobertura.

La cuestión es su habilidad, Parental Bond, que le permite golpear dos veces y hacer el mismo efecto que con una cinta elegida es decir X1.5 con el bonus de atacar dos veces y por ende romper sustitutos, bandas focus y pokemon con la habilidad Robustez o similares activa.

Con sólo una debilidad y una inmunidad, Kanga tiene muchos momentos para entrar debido a su bulk natural y recibir un ataque de baja potencia o cuando el rival ponga un sustituto para luego Mega evolucionar y romperle el sustituto atacando con Puño Incremento y subiéndose el ataque dos veces, el mismo efecto que danza espada. Si vuelve a atacar con puño incremento significa que tienes a un pokemon con +4 al ataque, algo que ya no es broma.

Alguien podría pensar en Aegislash como counter o check, sin embargo, MKanga tiene perlas como terremoto, por lo que Aegislash se vuelve inútil ante él. También es difícil de darle revenge kill debido a Golpe Bajo, y hago hincapié, un golpe bajo con +4 o incluso +2 al ataque es peligroso, y lo mismo va por retroceso (return).

 

[Ranevski]

You could make the case that MegaKangaskhan is one of (if not the best pokemon) in Pokebank OU and deserves to be banned. I am going to elaborate on what I believe to be the grossly under-represented side: that it should be OU.


It absolutely disgusts me how many people think Kangaskhanite should be banned for the wrong reasons. Not having counters/having counters has got nothing to do with warranting a ban. Demolishing walls after you let it set up does not warrant a ban. Incentivising you to run something you didn't used to run (Rocky Helmet instead of Leftovers) does not warrant a ban. MegaKangaskhan doesn't always know what you're going to swap in (or stay in) and can't always predict the right move to use, it doesn't spam Return and hit everything Super Effective. It also has 4MSS but even if it had 8 moves the point is that sometimes it tries to Scrappy PuP (predicting your ghost switch-in) and instead you just stayed in and attacked it, killing it or at least chunking it hard enough that you can now revenge kill it. Sometimes it tries to Crunch the incoming ghost and instead you brought in Terrakion. The reality is that 99% of the people on the pro-ban side have no idea why this thing deserves a ban, and frankly don't know how to play pokemon.

The main reason I think that Kangaskhanite should be left OU is that none of my teams ever run something niche to beat it. MegaKangaskhan is one of the many large threats in Pokebank OU and I don't have more trouble with it than the others. I honestly have more trouble with niche things like Tornadus-T, Deoxys', Rotom-W, etc because these are pokemon you either need something very specific to stop, or pokemon that you can't 'stop' doing what they do because they're just great at their jobs. Meanwhile the tools you use to beat MegaKangaskhan teams are the same tools that are simply good in general. Pokemon like Ferrothorn/Garchomp with RockyHelmet/IronBarbs/RoughSkin are just great pokemon in this metagame. Ghosts with Substitute/WoW are just great pokemon in this metagame. Revenge killers with Extremespeed/other fast priority/scarfers like Genesect are just great pokemon in this metagame. There are plenty of other pokemon that can run away with the game if you give them a turn to set up, or you didn't keep your best checks healthy enough, or you made one bad decision. With team preview there is no excuse to not know which pokemon you need to keep healthy, or how dumb it is to lock into a choiced move early, or any similar setup fodder.

I just don't see how being the best pokemon, or having the best risk/reward, or whatever means that it is suddenly ban worthy. I am under the impression that we only ban things that truly break the game, rendering it unplayable as it was intended to be unless we all run said pokemon. Mewtwo is the classic case of this, you bring Mewtwo on your RBY team or you lose to any good player with Mewtwo on their team. Anyone who thinks MegaKangaskhan is that level of mandatory is crazy as you can witness people above 1850 constantly winning games without MegaKang against teams with MegaKang.

I think DPP Gyarados is incredibly similar to MegaKangaskhan. The Waterfall/Return/Taunt/DD set could always find a way to come in and get off a DD or two, and then run away with the game. It was too strong, too bulky, too fast, had a bunch of viable items, and it's typing was too good. This was DPP, there was no Ferrothorn, the best checks were things like Skarmory with Whirlwind and Taunt turned them all into setup fodder. Nothing could consistently stop him and if he somehow didn't get to set up you still had to fear StoneEdge/IceFang/Bounce coming out of left field to blow by your supposed answer. He was easily one of if not the best pokemon in DPP and played soooo similarly to how MegaKangaskhan plays today that I honestly find the MegaKang tears hilarious.


TLDR: Kangaskhanite should be OU because the tools you use to beat it are the same tools you run to beat everything else. To me banning Kangaskhanite is akin to banning Gyarados in DPP. Yes, its a fearsome sweeper that often runs away with the game, but ban-worthy? Please.

 

[AOPSUser]

I think it would be better to have a testing period, like how we did it in Gen 4 and onward. It is one thing to post calcs on a board, but another to test it. No offense to people here, but to me the Smogon community seems a bit ban-happy...

Plus it'll build us better as a community and such. Plus hype too...

We have all either tested or faced it (most of us with good posts anyways), and we know by experience that this thing is broken. This thing is a lot better of a sweeper than BLAZIKEN was, and that's saying quite a lot. You do not even revenge kill easily (CB Talonflame does 50% with Brave Bird haha), period. Sucker Punch makes this even more true, and not even things like Terrakion can switch in on it.

In my experience, a MegaKhan using the most common set (Return/PuP/EQ/SuckerPunch) is very easy to deal with, especially with a bulky ghost type such as Trevanent or Gourgeist. However, if it goes out of its way to fit crunch onto the set (ex. replacing Sucker Punch with Crunch) it is not even beaten by priority. At +2, MegaKhan still threatens to OHKO priority users with Crunch and STAB Return with most priority failing to OHKO.

+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 585-690 (144.8 - 170.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 120-142 (34.1 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 318-375 (92.4 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 162-192 (46.1 - 54.7%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 257-304 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 228-270 (64.9 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 508-598 (122.7 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I support the ban of Kangaskhanite with some suspect testing. I doesn't exactly feel right without testing it first. Right now I feel we're just theorymoning.

The best set is actually Return/PuP/Crunch/Sucker Punch IMO. You give up EQ but it's not like you actually needed that for much anyways. Also most of us have been playing very extensively, and we know how good it is.

Why do we just assume khan would be at +2 with NO PRIOR DAMAGE. Thats unrealistic. What is more realistic is khan getting a power punch up, taking damage, killing something and being revenged by something like Lucario, conkledurr or breloom. Thats it. Its also about as centralizing as Keldeo was last gen. The reason we ban things is because they break the metagame. Such as M-gars ability to freely pick off mons. Khan just has a lot of power, and can break subs. If we are worried about something with mediocre bulk breaking subs then go ban Mega-Heracross, or Cloyster. Thats a reduntant point.

So I switch Kangaskhan in after foddering a mon to your Tyranitar. Your Ghost is already dead. At this point, PuP will either KO Tyranitar and boost Attack, or hit something else and boost Attack. There is nothing you can do at this point.

If you are being smart, you are going to do something like that to set up your PuPs.

 

[salamences]

since everyone seems to be focusing on what kangaskhan hits instead of what can hit it, here's some calcs I ran through:

252+ SpA Accelgor Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 240-284 (68.3 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (I know he's not common, but thats precisely the point)
252+ SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 162-192 (46.1 - 54.7%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Weavile Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 226-268 (64.3 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 262-310 (74.6 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 322-380 (91.7 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 235-277 (66.9 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 338-398 (96.2 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 390-462 (111.1 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 414-488 (117.9 - 139%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 351-413 (100 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 318-375 (90.5 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 196-231 (55.8 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 220-259 (62.6 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 361-429 (102.8 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 234-277 (66.6 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 284-336 (80.9 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 218-258 (62.1 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and megas
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan in Sun: 313-370 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 271-321 (77.2 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Force Palm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 326-386 (92.8 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (this is a joke do you see what I am doing here)
252+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 186-219 (52.9 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Manectric Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 204-240 (58.1 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 160-189 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 368-436 (104.8 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252- Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Power-Up Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 172-204 (49 - 58.1%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO (seriously I mean c'mon)
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 314-370 (89.4 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

and oh brother, the list you'd get if you counted choice scarves!!

the thing I'm trying to get across here is: don't specifically focus on what can wall her. she can be revenge killed with ease by many common OU threats and even some uncommon ones. the lateral view seems to be "she has so much power" but no one seems to be focusing on her speed: 100. she can be outsped by plenty, and, if I were to include choice scarves, which she cannot wear, and trick room setups, which she cant deal with, then her utility is significantly lowered. power output isn't everything in pokemon, there's also strategy y'know.

 

[neooo]

The real issue with Kanga is the fact that it has the bulk of bulky Pokemon without any investment, and the ability to OHKO Sashed Pokemon without moves that normally hit multiple times.

I don't need to list a bunch of damage calculations--you guys have already done a splendid job demonstrating how obscene this delinquent duo is. I've only been playing prebank OU, and Kanga can even run over things that should be able to hard counter it with a little luck (or prediction--do Kanga users need even do this?).

Anyway, most everything else I could say has already been said. I was genuinely surprised Mega Gengar got removed before Mega Kanga, but I'm glad to see it's judgement day is coming. Good riddance, hopefully we'll see a return to normalcy, and not have to design all of our teams around this creature.

 

[Ash Borer]

Why do we just assume khan would be at +2 with NO PRIOR DAMAGE. Thats unrealistic. What is more realistic is khan getting a power punch up, taking damage, killing something and being revenged by something like Lucario, conkledurr or breloom. Thats it. Its also about as centralizing as Keldeo was last gen. The reason we ban things is because they break the metagame. Such as M-gars ability to freely pick off mons. Khan just has a lot of power, and can break subs. If we are worried about something with mediocre bulk breaking subs then go ban Mega-Heracross, or Cloyster. Thats a reduntant point.

because kanga ohkos countless shit with sucker punch or return so it forces a switch. Who is dumb enough to click power up punch when you can cleanly ohko what youre staring down, and your opponent has a good kanga check? Offensive kanga checks arent non existent, we ackknowledge this, just most are shaky and there are few.

 

[avsimone]

I know everyone wants to discuss this more, do more damage calcs, discuss possible counters or checks, but it seems that everyone who's been up against a mega-kangaskhan and responds to this thread thinks the same way, and says this: can we just ban this thing already?
so I ask politely to the smogon administrators who see that mega kang's incredibly broken, can you please quick ban this thing? soon?

 

[Ryolain]

The idea that the metagame just needs time to adapt makes no sense, short of GameFreak completely retconning half the stuff in OU to be able to check/counter it there's nothing we'll gain with time that we don't already know. The strongest walls available are 2HKO'd by it, not even just in OU but in Ubers, too. There isn't going to be some magic set that no one has thought of yet - and even if there is some magical 1 Poke that appears to beat it, that will bring its number of 100% reliable counters up to 2.

 

[lopsided]

Genghis Khan's rule is estimated to have been responsible for the deaths of 40 Million people.
There's a beautiful irony that something named in his honour could bring the entire metagame to its knees.
Cut this single mother off the child support.

 

[Skyblade12]

and oh brother, the list you'd get if you counted choice scarves!!

the thing I'm trying to get across here is: don't specifically focus on what can wall her. she can be revenge killed with ease by many common OU threats and even some uncommon ones. the lateral view seems to be "she has so much power" but no one seems to be focusing on her speed: 100. she can be outsped by plenty, and, if I were to include choice scarves, which she cannot wear, and trick room setups, which she cant deal with, then her utility is significantly lowered. power output isn't everything in pokemon, there's also strategy y'know.

Until you realize that Mega-Kangaskhan has 120 BP Priority in the form of Parental Bond Sucker Punch. Add that and watch that list suddenly become a whole lot shorter.

 

[SuperMeep]

because kanga ohkos countless shit with sucker punch or return so it forces a switch. Who is dumb enough to click power up punch when you can cleanly ohko what youre staring down, and your opponent has a good kanga check? Offensive kanga checks arent non existent, we ackknowledge this, just most are shaky and there are few.

It does NOT OHKO breloom, conkledurr, or lucario the 3 most common priority fighting users.

 

[ROBx4]

How I kill every mega kahn.
1. Keldeo with +1 behind a sub has kahn enter on him. That happens with unskilled players.
2. I burn it with Heatran who takes the first powerup punch easily thanks to def evs, and then I spam protect and switch between Heatran and Amoonguss until one of the two die and Scizor enters to revenge.
Those are the ONLY way I can kill Mega Kahn safely, if you call purposely sac'ing a wall safe. I paralyzed it once, and that turned out to be less effective than burning it. Oh, and of course that's when I'm lucky enough for it to NOT have earthquake. Why not spore you say? Gee, I hope he stays asleep long enough for me to enter Thundurus without getting him sucker punched. On the other hand, how many mons can enter on Return as well as defensive steels can? Basically, if mega kahn enters things will die regardless of where I stand in the battle.

Insta-ban? I'm not sure, I mean I DO manage to kill the thing over 50% of the time but on the other hand... what is this insane gimmick strategy?

How I kill every pokemon +6 att, def, spdef, duel screens, sub, rocks, spikes, tspikes, engrain and a super effective att. If every pokemon is so easy to kill why even have an uber teir?

 

[Jayd]

Why do we just assume khan would be at +2 with NO PRIOR DAMAGE. Thats unrealistic. What is more realistic is khan getting a power punch up, taking damage, killing something and being revenged by something like Lucario, conkledurr or breloom. Thats it. Its also about as centralizing as Keldeo was last gen. The reason we ban things is because they break the metagame. Such as M-gars ability to freely pick off mons. Khan just has a lot of power, and can break subs. If we are worried about something with mediocre bulk breaking subs then go ban Mega-Heracross, or Cloyster. Thats a reduntant point.

So what you're saying is this Pokemon gets a guaranteed KO, and can possibly be revenged by fighting types with speed or priority if it came in on something with such typing, speed, and current HP to survive a PuP.

Translation: it's uncounterable and can only be stopped with the joint effort of multiple checks (one of which has to be KO'd) with specific typing. That's an Uber my friend. Drop the banhammer.

 

[Ajwf]

Hello all! I got like a week break of arguing and I'm right back and ready to kick this in to gear again! Don't expect me to respond to anything/be vigilant of points already made since this thread is going to move like a Japanese bullet train. I also type like a six year-old.

So first off, I am going to be pro-ban for the duration of this thread. The reasons shall be thoroughly (I would hope) justified and explained below.

Let's talk about the stats.

On the defensive side, we have a 105/100/100, normal typing. This grants, as you all know, one weakness (fight) and one immunity (ghost) as well as being resisted by rock and steel and cannot touch ghost. The trade offs is it doesn't resist any types, but as a sweeper this is fine. We're not talking about a wall. A sweeper with the ability to be threatened by only one type for SE damage (And in that, one priority type) is a good sweeper in deed.

As I generally care more about defenses, let's talk about other pokemon in that same defensive tier.
Celebi, Jirachi, Ferrothorn and Heatran all are really solid defensive pokemon. In fact, in the terms of walls/tanks, you can't ask for too much more. But Celebi and Jirachi already have less bulk. Heatran and ferro have different styles, so let's see how they stack up:

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ferrothorn: 108-127 (30.6 - 36%) -- 48.2% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 163-193 (39.3 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Uninvested?
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 163-193 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 66% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 135-159 (32.6 - 38.4%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Heatran: 102-121 (26.4 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Uninvested?
252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 135-159 (38.4 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Uninvested in defense, mega kangaskhan holds his own with both these epic tanks of the OU class. While yes, he lacks many of the resistances that these carry, he also lacks the weaknesses. Khan has more freedom to switch in and isn't meant to wall, so this bulk suits him exceptionally well to protect him from priority and the few pokemon that can outspeed him without fearing an OHKO by sucker punch. Remember, he is doing this effortlessly in a job I'm not even investing him for, he just carries bulk because bulky khan does it's job fairly well.

On the offensive side, we'll ignore the special stat. 125 attack with an essential choice ban bonus and 100 speed. Again, both stats are good, but nothing game-breaking by themselves. The 125 attack, however, might as well be recognized henceforth as 125x1.5 or (252 invested Jolly, since low balling makes better arguments) 523.5 (including parental bond boost). For an idea, this is more than Kyurem's adamant set without a band (since obviously base 125 with band is essentially parental boost).

But this attack in itself, while more than Mega-gengar's was unboosted, isn't even that bad since it gets worse. Mega kan's boosting move will give it +2 with relative ease, sending it only comparable to mawile after a swords dance (and actually more...)

1356 is Mega Mawile's +2 attack.
1396 is Mega kan's +2 attack.

That, dear players, is madness.

How? Parental bond acts like a choice band and therefore gives you an extra step. Don't believe me? Test it out. Band Mega Kan+2 will do the same as parental bond +2 but more than Mega kan (no parental bond) +3. The damage is actually equal to non-parental bond Kan +4.

Remember Mawile's flaw is speed, semi-limited move pool and 4mss. Kan runs base 100, a good speed tier to say the least given he also has priority to boot. Kan also can get near-perfect coverage and has a move pool to hit what he wants to (and basically everything with a dark/fight/normal set) for at least neutral damage. If heatran is an issue, Kan simply adds earthquake. Ferrothorn/Skarm? Fire punch. Cofagrigus and other ghosts trying to stop him? Crunch. He's so damn versatile, it is really a hard pokemon to even determine a decent switch to after preparing.

You've seen the damage calculations, there isn't much to argue there. This is just a simple explanation of why it is. Previously, the only other way to achieve this was to be tricked a choice band onto a +2 or to baton pass +2 to a band.

In a good sweeper for OU, sweepers generally have one or two of the following requirements:

Good->Great attack
Can find time to set up
Can outspeed multiple targets that could kill it
Can take hits from priority
Has priority
Great coverage

Other sweepers (just a few of the good):
Alakazam: Great attack, takes one hit, doesn't set up, but can outspeed most targets. Very good coverage
Garchomp: Can generally set up, very nice attack, can outspeed targets and might take a hit or two. generally good coverage (EdgeQuakeRage)
Lucario: Great attack, has trouble finding time to set up, has priority, does not take hits. Doesn't outspeed much, either. Very good coverage (Fight/Steel/Dark currently unresisted afaik) (mega lucario is different, but I suspect we'll be debating him soon...)
Gyarados: Good attack, doesn't outspeed before attack, can force a switch with intimidate (situational...), no priority, can take some hits. Coverage is meh... (EQ/Waterfall/Bounce or possibly just two...)

In megas?
Lucario-mega: Outspeeds a lot, still struggles to take hits, sets up easy and great coverage. Good priority. (But this is an ubers candidate as well, so). Has to come in safely to set up.
Garchomp-mega: Slow, same coverage, a bit bulkier, monstrous attack, no priority, still revenged easily enough. Before mega, must find safe switch.
Alakazam-mega: Fast, fantastic attack, no prioirty, basically dies to anything faster, still good coverage. Always must have safe switch.
Gyarados-mega: Bulky, decent coverage, slow, no priority, good attack (average for mega), doesn't necessarily need a safe switch.

All above has some flaws. Khan not only does all of what was listed, he also effortlessly plays wall breaker along with his sweeper set. His natural bulk, I feel I've adequately showed. His attack, I've also showed him stacked to mega mawile. And dark/fight/normal's resists? N/A.

So how have people been countering mega-kangaskhan? I sure hope you've been reading the main kan thread, but the general consensus was sableye for his prankster willowisp. The other options, cofagrigus, ferrothorn, skarmory, all take SE from some hit so Ferro and skarm have rocky helmets to prevent boosting on them. Cofagrigus can hard stop him with mummy and that insane physical stat, but how many people really actively like using cofagrigus?

Sure, rocky helmet garchomp/ferrothorn are decent stops, but how hard are either to take out without having kan do it for them? And should you realistically HAVE to run a rocky helmet garchomp/ferrothorn? Are these sets decently viable outside their job to basically sacrifice themselves so khan recoils himself to death? Not really. I don't remember signing up to have essentially a thorny porcupine slot on my team.

The amount of shifting and unconventional counters needed to possibly stop khan are also rather unfair. Skarmory, ferro aren't bad pokemon to use but when I have to run them with helmets simply to their job, that seems a bit defining. Wasn't I suppose to run shed shell skarmory to stop mega gengar from trapping me, and now I want rocky helmet to stop khan from killing me...

Checking isn't much better. You have to have a faster user who resists dark and outspeeds to kill it. Why? Because priority mach punch isn't killing khan.

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 283-335 (80.6 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The faster pokemon than Kan possessing fight are: Mega lucario, infernape, the musketeers. Lucario can OHKO.

However, Keldeo cannot in the timid set needed to ouspeed mega kan. Virizion's stronger special side (using inconsistent focus blast) cannot guarantee it. Nor can Cobalion.

252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 278-330 (79.2 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Virizion Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 306-362 (87.1 - 103.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 306-362 (87.1 - 103.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

This leaves terrakion, Mega-lucario and infernape (who goes 96-100+ with cc) to OHKO Kan consistently while resisting sucker punch.

I think this evidence adequately shows that Kangaskhan is just to much for OU.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Mega Lucario's priority isn't THAT much weaker than Megakhan's. It makes up for a lack of Parental Bond with a considerably higher Attack stat and a lack of 80 BP with STAB Adaptability. Add increased reliability and the option to use either Vacuum Wave or Mach Punch or even Extremespeed (allowing for significant versatility regarding the priority options Mega Lucario has available) and their priority power is relatively comparable.

Mega Lucario's priority moves are 3/4 the power of Khan's Sucker Punch, though you can predict Sucker Punch and instead put up a Sub or something to soften the second turn's blow (since the second hit will rarely OHKO anything by itself.)

At any rate, Lucario is a lot frailer and has two additional weaknesses that can be exploited.

 

[sofaturtles]

The best set is actually Return/PuP/Crunch/Sucker Punch IMO. You give up EQ but it's not like you actually needed that for much anyways. Also most of us have been playing very extensively, and we know how good it is.

Then I support the ban 100%.

 

[SuperMeep]

IT gets a guarentee KO about as often as any pokemon who gets a set up first. Also, how well does Conk or Breloom take a +2 sucker punch. Cause if Khan has taken prior damage, its gonna dies to those hits, which it almost always takes while setting up with PUP

 

[Chaoswalker]

How I kill every pokemon +6 att, def, spdef, duel screens, sub, rocks, spikes, tspikes, engrain and a super effective att. If every pokemon is so easy to kill why even have an uber teir?

If it's not clear from my post, I'm leaning ban, or at least test.

 

[Hannah]

That thread should mostly show the majority leaning towards banning it

While this may not be Pokemon Online, the metagames are fairly similar. It is obvious that Mega Kangaskhan is too big of a threat in the tier that is simply unhealthy to keep around. Much like Landorus-I in the previous generations, it doesn't need to setup to break through Pokemon, the equivalent of banded hits with amazing bulk and speed is enough to run rampant through the tier.

The biggest reason it's leaning towards broken is Power-Up Punch. A swords dance boost within an attack is too amazing of an advantage in any tier, yes running ghosts prevent the boost, but that's it. The checks given are simply ran through with proper prediction.

Get rid of Mega Kangaskhan to let a healthy tier flourish.

 

[Ryolain]

Why do we just assume khan would be at +2 with NO PRIOR DAMAGE. Thats unrealistic. What is more realistic is khan getting a power punch up, taking damage, killing something and being revenged by something like Lucario, conkledurr or breloom. Thats it. Its also about as centralizing as Keldeo was last gen. The reason we ban things is because they break the metagame. Such as M-gars ability to freely pick off mons. Khan just has a lot of power, and can break subs. If we are worried about something with mediocre bulk breaking subs then go ban Mega-Heracross, or Cloyster. Thats a reduntant point.

In the same post that you said MGar was banned for freely picking off at least one Poke, you're going to say that MKang isn't broken while giving an example of it freely picking off at least one Poke in order for you to revenge kill it? How the hell does that make any sense? MKang may not have Shadow Tag, but it's a trapped all the same in the sense that 1 thing is going to die, minimum. It either kills what's currently in, or it kills the switch.

 

[TROP]

Too lazy to write a lot for this thing so TL;DR version:

• It has basically guaranteed set up no matter what before it Mega Evolves, and will still find a lot of chances to set up after it mega evolves.
• Hits insanely hard, even without a boost, with literally 0 of the drawback other strong as fuck moves/pokemon have.
• The only real risk with this thing is losing the speed tie with other Mega Kangaskhan(i'm serious)
  
• Revenge Killing it is a Nightmare because literally only Fighting types will survive Sucker Punch(more like Mienshao, Terrakion, and Keldeo; Loom can't guarantee OHKO after SR) and are not that hard to stop with let's say an Aegislash, while other choices like regular Alakazam get obliterated because parental bond will make its focus sash useless.
• IT IS ABLE TO BEAT BASICALLY ALL OF HER CHECKS AND COUNTERS BY HERSELF WITHOUT LOSING TO A LOT OF THEM WHEN DOING THAT. Seriously, when this thing uses Fire Punch or Crunch, the only way to reliably beat it are bulky rocky Helmet Garchomp(because Ferro and Skarmory might lose to Fire Punch kanga) and maybe Sableye who still has a lot of issues and suffers of being easy to stop with good partners for Mama Kanga like Heatran. At least things like Garchomp and Keldeo still lost to some of their checks/counters when going for a move to eliminate the most common ones and some of their partners still lost sometimes to the things they are supossed to beat for them.
  
• It is way too bulky for something this powerful. At least things like Mega Lucario still have below average defenses.
• It can literally carry bad teams by herself. It is this good
• Its super creative sets like Wish+Seismic toss are still insanely destructive and literally 2hko everything not named Cofagrigus(who isn't that good in OU anyway).
  
• Uh...does this thing have a flaw? I can't find one

Can we have some calcs that show khan at about 60% hp against priority if we are going to include Khan with +2 attack. Also some calcs on how Conkledurr and his priority friends take a plus 2 sucker punch. Cause i know luc can.

252+ Atk Iron Fist Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 182-216 (51.8 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And no one smarter than a rock should be hitting a Conk with sucker Punch ever. And if anyone is staying on a Lucario that already Mega Evolved when they have a Kanga out, that person...I don't know what to say here without getting my post deleted for being too rude.

since everyone seems to be focusing on what kangaskhan hits instead of what can hit it, here's some calcs I ran through:

Sorry, most of those are really supbar moves, mons that are not really viable in ou, and a lot of those lose to unboosted sucker punch. As someone said back in the Keldeo suspect thread, Calc spam means nothing. I can easily do calc spam for something that should never be allowed in OU like Xerneas in an attempt to make it look balanced.

Genghis Khan's rule is estimated to have been responsible for the deaths of 40 Million people.
There's a beautiful irony that something named in his honour could bring the entire metagame to its knees.
Cut this single mother off the child support.

lol'd

 

[SuperMeep]

In the same post that you said MGar was banned for freely picking off at least one Poke, you're going to say that MKang isn't broken while giving an example of it freely picking off at least one Poke in order for you to revenge kill it? How the hell does that make any sense? MKang may not have Shadow Tag, but it's a trapped all the same in the sense that 1 thing is going to die, minimum. It either kills what's currently in, or it kills the switch.

It gets a free kill as oftenly as any mon left in front of a sweeper who has just set up and has neutral coverage. KHAN TAKES PRIOR DAMAGE WHILE SETTING UP. For example, khan is volt switched in against mon A, it takes A HIT from mon A, and then sets up with Pup, probably killing mon a if it stayed in. Conk proceeds to switch in, then murder it with Mach punch, taking sucker punch, and easily killing it thanks to the prior damage it undoubtedly took while setting up.