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kd24's BW Hall of Fame

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by kd24, Jun 13, 2013.

  1. kd24

    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Dec 21, 2007
    Much like Bill Simmon's BBOB, I think it'd be a good exercise to try and build a Hall of Fame for 5th gen Pokemon, and you start at the top, so I'm going to list my top 12 Pokemon of 5th Gen based on criteria almost adopted from BBOB. To be considered the true class of Gen 5, the Pokemon need to pass most, or all, of the following:

    - Did the Pokemon introduce new concepts to the game, did it shape the future of the game? [This really hurts B/W2 Mons]

    - How important was the Pokemon in high levels of play? Could it be successful against good opponents/teams, as much as it was against bad ones?

    - Did the Pokemon make a difference on good teams?

    - Did it absolutely dominate a point in time of the game? Was it ever a suspect?

    - How much did opposing players need to adapt their teams to deal with the Pokemon? Would the game change without its presence and how?

    That last question in particular is perhaps the most important, it questions the presence the Pokemon had and what it changed by being there. But all in all the goal is simply:

    Could I show a complete stranger these 12 Pokemon with short 5th gen blurbs and could they come up with a reasonable idea of what 5th gen was all about?

    I'm going to get a TON of flak for my list and choices, but the goal is you guys come up with your own pantheons so we can accurately describe and summarize 5th gen. Trust me when I say you're going to say this list is awful, but I simply just used my own criteria, memory, and blurbs about the past metagames (logs, RMTs, and discussion threads). I'd rather my list be bad and get some solid discussion about Gen 5's history and development than nothing at all.

    12.] Rotom-W

    This was really a huge debate for me. I originally had Haxorus here, typed up my feelings, read it, and just felt that I was wrong. Haxorus definitely was the first powerhouse role player of 5th gen, weakening walls and completely redefining the concept of Dragon Spam and Offensive teams (Haxorus was top 15 in usage at one point, and usually hovered around top 20). You had to deal with Haxorus and you had to bring Steel-types or a team of fast shit that couldn't let it break you apart.

    But when I was reading that, I realized that Rotom-W was the real role player of 5th gen. Not only was it far better competitively, but it molded Volt-Turning, which is far more influential than what Haxorus did, despite how dominant it was. You want to speak about dominant? I think Volt-Turn was single-handily the most dominant strategy when it first caught on and it completely had some players at a loss on how to beat it. Add on the dominant broken Pokemon that it was volt-turning to, and now you're in a position where Rotom-W is definitely among the best of the best Pokemon. It had fantastic typing and stats, and just partnered AND dealt with threats. It forced players to adapt to the fast paced style of Volt-Turn, rather than a switch around style, and that is one of the very first aspects that changed Stall and turned B/W into a much faster and ferocious metagame. You take Rotom-W away, and Volt-Turn never takes off, teams never feel that pressure, certain threats are never fully realized as the powerhouses they are (Blaziken and Excadrill benefited huge off Volt-Turning, you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise).

    11.] Dugtrio

    Dugtrio was molded by weather, but its importance in B/W cannot be understated. It single-handily was the key difference in winning the "weather war" AND it aided teams that were relying on Latias, Latios, etc. 40% of Heatran are carrying Air Balloons, and Dugtrio plays a large role in that. I can't stress enough how much some of B/W was decided simply on who was better at using Dugtrio (switching it in efficiently). You take Dugtrio away, you completely change a portion of BW - I can't even begin to predict how it would have turned out during that missing time. It's existence shaped how the metagame continued, especially in tournament play.

    If you want to play the "did it make teams better" card, again, I just point to the teams that were using it. It made ANY weather team better, and it made ANY team abusing shit like Latios or Tornadus better (Just Dugtrio here, revenging Jirachi/Heatran/Blissey, no big deal!). It was even key in busting Genesect with U-Turn -> Dugtrio being pretty much the best thing ever. In a Gen 5 Hall of Fame, Dugtrio is definitely in the top 12 IMO.

    10.] Reuniclus

    This was one of the best Pokemon and one of the most metagame defining. Unlike the other Pokemon listed so far, not only did Reuniclus influence stall teams (and in many instances, shatter them), but it completely altered offensive teams as well. You couldn't play the game of Glass Cannons when a bulky and obscenely powerful recoil and status free Life Orb Trick Roomer was hanging around. Both Reuniclus sets could fit onto any team because they both handled business so well, which made it even scarier.

    It was even put on as a Suspect, which basically means it fits all criteria. I can still see paralysis teams that could use a CM Reuniclus to simply sweep through anything at the end of games, or defensive teams that got the jump on opposing stall by just bringing in their Reuniclus. It's taken a serious hit overtime, almost being non-existent in today's metagame, which takes it down a few spots, but it was still a premiere Pokemon that quickly shifted the focus of the metagame into what it was to become. I am fully convinced Reuniclus jump-started BW development by just existing.

    9.] Latios

    Another blow to stall but just all-around important in the metagame. It again, jump-started our metagame by ditching notions of "Safe-switching" by abusing a Life Orb and Specs set better than it previously could have thanks to Psyshock. The game got faster and turned towards Jirachi quickly as a means of checking threats like Latios, Reuniclus, and Tornadus. Underrated aspect? Latios + Latias double team dominated the metagame for a short amount of time and Latios is part of the dominant aspect of Dragon-type spam. You take away Latios, BW is a completely different game until B/W2 comes around because you've taken away the best 1 for 1 artist in the game. Dragon spam becomes less popular, you've lost a valuable check for a lot of threats because you've taken away something that just held so much power.

    8.] Volcarona

    This has to be in the top 12 because of Stealth Rock and how teams are shaped. Volcarona is one of two Pokemon that absolutely DEMANDS Stealth Rock and Choice Scarfers (the other is number 4 on this list!). It dominated competitive games completely, just abused multiple sets, and made us dedicate team slots. It had more 6-0s in tournament games than any Pokemon I ever saw. If Volcarona was removed from the game, I think things change drastically. We aren't as concerned with Scarfing Terrakion or Landorus in BW1, and we're definitely not looking at Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Forretress as possible liabilities. Mew, Latias, Jirachi, Celebi all become far more popular far sooner and the metagame shifts to a more defensive game than it is.

    7.] Excadrill

    The only banned Pokemon on this list (I'll get to why at the end), it fits all criteria but let's talk about what happened when it was there - Sand was the dominant weather without question, Entry Hazards were not as important, Choice Scarf was meaningless, Conkeldurr shot up so high in usage that it took forever for it to drop back down to normal [also blame Darkrai for this] and even Azumarill got usage. Rock Polish Terrakion was a thing (lol) and Gliscor had to have been top 10 at a few different points (which is ridiculous) and that ride probably lasted even post ban of Excadrill. NOTHING else that was banned ever shaped a metagame like Excadrill did, we saw the results of taking it away first-hand. It completely changed the game.

    6.] Jellicent

    This was an elite Pokemon. It wasn't a suspect, but if you consider shaping the metagame, let's look at what removing Jellicent does:

    Takes away the best Ghost-type in the game, completely opening the doors again for Rapid Spinning. Without a reliable way to stop Spinning, Volcarona and Dragonite usage combined with Spinners go up because they really don't have an option against you anymore. To keep this in check, Terrakion rises to the top as the best Pokemon in the game because it can check the Stealth Rock weak Pokemon, Starmie becomes 1st in usage because it can Spin reliably even against Gengar and checks Terrakion. Ferrothorn keeps Starmie in check and can punish it for Spinning, causing Ferrothorn usage to skyrocket as a means of somewhat keeping stuff in check while it lays down Stealth Rock. But Volcarona and Fire Punch Dragonite shit on Ferrothorn, causing them to only be used more and the cycle continues. Somewhere down the road, the metagame becomes teams of Starmie/Ferrothorn/Terrakion/Dragonite/Volcarona/Wildcard because why use anything else when you can use 2 of the top 5 sweepers in the game, knowing that they have ZERO way to stop Rapid Spin. The threat of Jellicent is what kept these 2 in check.

    Yeah, it's somewhat dramatized, but are you telling me you couldn't totally see this scenario happening down the road when people realize "hey, Volcarona is really fucking good when you can Spin Stealth Rock easily every single game".

    Then you have it completely being the face of let's shit on stall teams with Taunt/Recover/Burn move. It checked Rain as well, and just played a huge part in planning and team construction.

    5.] Landorus

    You have almost as much Volt-Turn force as Rotom-W here, but then you also have the game's best Choice Scarfer in BW1 and best LO sweeper in BW2. Disagree all you want, but Landorus hasn't missed a beat. You take him away, and EVERYTHING suffers in BW1. He was keeping Sun, Sand, Volca, D-Nite, etc all in check. And if anything else, he has a bit of history in BW1, being suspect because of an incorrect calculation of PO, causing him to gain 1.5x attack rather than 1.3x for his ability. That needs to be chronicled through time as a cautionary tale of DOING DAMAGE CALCS!

    4.] Dragonite

    Take everything I said with Volcarona, then give it the option of running the best Choice Band set in the history of the game to that point because ExtremeSpeed is ridiculous, coupled with one of the best abiltiies ever made. You have to mention how Dragonite would have roamed without Stealth Rock and probably would have been banned without it. IIRC, it was a suspect as well, which means it easily passes every criteria. You take away Dragonite and the obsession of Steel-types, of Bulky Waters, of HP Ice Scarfers, of Scarf Terrakion, it all deteriorates somewhat. It has my vote as the BEST Pokemon of Gen 5 so in a Hall of Fame, it has to count for something.

    3.] Venusaur

    I put this way over Ninetales. You could easily argue that it's easily replaced by Victreebel but I don't see it at all. Venusaur IS sun teams. It is without a doubt THE BEST Pokemon on sun-teams and it single-handily forces you to keep it in mind when building a team. Those Choice Scarfers I mentioned weren't just for Dnite and Volcarona, they also were needed for Venusaur. Venusaur is a summary of everything wrong with Gen 5 in reality. It abuses a busted Sleep mechanic. It turns a weather advantage into an unfair advantage. It destroys Speed Tiers. It has a ridiculous Boosting move if it wants it, akin to Quiver Dance or Shell Smash. It can change its moveset around to cover any threat, making games decided on Team Match-up. You remove it, and you remove Sun imo. Replace it with Victreebel if you can, but it isn't even close to a replacement with those stats. I think it needs to be recognized in the Hall of Fame because it has brute strength AND it's a case study on the worst traits.

    2.] Ferrothorn

    Number 1 is obvious, but this is game-defining because it is the best hazard layer, the best game stopper, the best everything. Consider the ramifications of taking this away:

    - Hazards are nowhere near as good
    - Dragon-type attacks can hardly be checked, Latios doesn't have to use shitty HP Fire until Rain is banned. Hell, Latios is probably banned.
    - Thunder Spam becomes popular on Rain teams, Jolteon is a thing again. Politoed loses a huge check and Rain is banned.
    - Sun becomes far too powerful without Rain, is also banned.
    - Choice Banded everything can run rampant, how are you deterring just an onslaught of everything.
    - kd24 wins the Secret Santa Tournament last year instead of losing to Iron Barbs

    This is the biggest chain reaction, everything changes and BW is never the same. I can't even imagine the metagame. With how good it actually is during the game too, it is without a doubt in the Hall of Fame and as number 2.

    1.] Politoed

    Ferrothorn is game-defining...Politoed is generation defining. We could all write essays about how Politoed and Drizzle changed BW and BW2, the fact of the matter is that it definitely did. Everything was changed. The viability of some Pokemon, the factoring of resistances, the strength of sweepers, it all was there. This was akin to Leftovers in GSC and natures in ADV, everything changes completely with the introduction of Auto-Drizzle in OU. Good or bad, Politoed is the face of my Hall of Fame.

    What missed the cut:

    Deoxys-S/D: Hazard setters, they didn't play a role like Ferrothorn did. We've seen the result of them being banned, less heavy offense but everything stays the same basically. They're both really amazing but that's it.

    Kyurem-B: By the time BW2 rolled around, Haxorus already showed the wallbreaker aspect, the role player aspect, the freight train aspect, Kyurem-B was just much better in every way at it. Same with Keldeo, Genesect, and Tornadus-T: they rose usage of Pokemon as checks, but they didn't define anything. They're just very strong but we saw that already in BW1. Had they come out in BW1, they would be on the list no question.

    Thundurus: We saw it banned, and the metagame didn't change much. IMO, Latios/Volcarona are all-around better as well. You could say it made stall worse, but we have that with other Pokemon on this list already.

    Ninetales: I don't even think Sun is that big of a deal. Politoed shows time and time again that you remove the pieces, and Rain stays as dominant as ever. With Sun, I think you remove Venusaur and it isn't anywhere close to being as good.

    Tyranitar: It just doesn't click with me the way the other ones do. You take away Tyranitar, Scizor usage goes up a lot to cover some stuff, Hippowdon rises up in usage to abuse Terrakion and Landorus, and that is about it. Rain already had the advantage of Sand, that doesn't change with Tyranitar leaving, it just means sand is weaker.

    Blaziken: What even changed when it was banned? Slowbro usage went down a bit, same with Azumarill. It was just another broken Pokemon that got to enjoy a long stay without really affecting games other than "Blaziken is broken, pray it doesn't kill you"

    I would consider Keldeo > Dugtrio but Dugtrio's importance in certain eras of the game make it hard to drop.
  2. Haruno

    Haruno Too cute to kill people :]
    is a Tutoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Jun 29, 2012
    Just out of curiosity why isn't scizor on the list? I also find it ironic how you didn't list ninetales because sun isn't a "big deal" but yet you list venasaur, a mon that is completely worthless without ninetales.
  3. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 6, 2009
    Im really surprised you didnt mention terrakion, as i personally consider it the epitome of "physical attacker". The speed, power, stab coverage, SR resistance, able to cheerfully play cb wallbreaker, cs revenge killer, setup sweeper or SR lead effectively also make it highly unpredictable. Its remainee consistently excellent throughout the generation.
  4. Grey Knight

    Grey Knight

    May 25, 2013
    I think keldeo and terrakion worth a place especially keldeo, the high ladder runs amok with those two.
  5. christos21


    Oct 24, 2010
    I am really surprised that nobody mentioned Genesect ; this thing surely changed the meta more than dugtrio did.It was too versatile,excellent movepool and offensive stats.Tornadus-T was also quite meta-changing due to its speed tier and ability.Terrakion and Keldeo could have been in the pantheon too,IMO.However,I can't say I disagree with your choices since all of them had a serious impact on the meta.
  6. Schpoonman

    Schpoonman formerly Lord of Bays

    Oct 3, 2010
    There was a topic like this back shortly after Genesect was banned and he kept getting snubbed by people who said that he wasn't here long enough to make that big of an impact. Obviously horseshit given that Genesect was probably the best Pokemon released this gen and we felt it, but hey, this is kd's topic.
  7. Nyara


    Nov 5, 2012
    Where Garchomp is? The Pokémon who caused more bans along the most suspects, one of most used and one of the best representation of the offensive in the current generation. I think he deserve more a place than... Rotom-H at least. Most of the same goes to Terrakion, too, he's just the best offensive juggernaut with almost flawless power, speed, STABs and a good bunch of options.
  8. Schpoonman

    Schpoonman formerly Lord of Bays

    Oct 3, 2010
    Once Sand Veil was gone, Garchomp plummeted in usage. Sand Veil was better than he was. I do agree with everyone asking about Terrakion. He was certainly the face of BW's power creep, and I'd like to hear kd's reasoning on not including him.
  9. Soul Fly

    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Jan 16, 2013
    I'd definitely consider Terrakion and Genesect more suitable candidates than dugtrio.

    Terrakion, in particular has only grown more dangerous as the gen progressed. It started its role as (and yet his most classic) a CB wallbreaker with superb dual STABs with high Attack and really good speed. (And surprisingly specially bulky once sandstorm got up), then the Excadrill era saw the developement of the RP set which punched holes left right and centre after scizor was out, and finally towards the end of BW1 and the Dawn of BW2, the SubSD salac set was pioneered giving us THE MOST dangerous physical nuke in OU, which 2HKOes the entire metagame. Then as if to add an icing o the cake he gets stealh rocks via tutor in BW2 making him the most reliable and dangerous Sash Leads in pokemon history. You simply do NOT fuck with this guy.
  10. GCSChris


    Dec 25, 2012
    I agree with this list, but i is just interesting to note that Terrakion and Keldeo didn't make it.
  11. lordkira


    Jul 8, 2009
    SV Garchomp, in my opinion, is one of the most overpowered pokemon to have existed in the OU metagame. However, even with SV gone and his fame drastically decreasing, garchomp is still one of themost fearsome OU pokemons with high usage. I'd like to know why garchomp isn't on the list.
  12. Ehrmantraut


    Feb 24, 2013
    lol, Genesect should be #1 and it's not even on your list.

    before it was banned, the game was pretty much Genesect's OU. nothing was more game-defining and unpredictable. i cant remember the amount of times i expected a scarfed genesect and switched accordingly, only to end up swept by a rock polish set at +1.

    if there's a king of gen 5 OU, it was genesect.
  13. kd24

    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Dec 21, 2007

    I don't see what it brought to the game that was revolutionary. This is the summary of a "it's so busted Pokemon that everything takes a hit because this exists". It wasn't even introduced until BW2 which really hurts it, we had seen Volt-Turn -> Dugtrio to help weather, and we had seen Rock Polish Life Orb coverage sets take off before (Even Lucario in DPP was doing this far before Genesect).

    When Genesect was banned, how did the game actually change? Yeah, it brought our attention to other deserving threats that should have been suspect tested, but its removal didn't change how we viewed the game or played it.

    It definitely qualifies in aspects 2-4, but its limited time in the game followed by what I posted above makes me want to keep it out of the top 12. If I include it, its Hall of Fame blurb would read something like "Incredibly broken, could abuse Rock Polish sets, and Scarf set with U-Turn to get by counters like Heatran with Dugtrio. Was eventually banned." I don't think it gives good insight into 5th gen anymore than the other broken threats (reminder for king of gen 5 OU that were eventually banned, we had Deoxys-A, Shaymin-S, Darkrai, Manaphy, etc. I don't know if I would put Genesect as the king)


    Admittedly, all-around great but Landorus's bio sums up everything I feel about Terrakion and I don't know if I'd put Terrakion above anything else on this list. They're all too important. Some key notes on Terrakion that COULD influence me including him on a revised version of my list:

    - First key player to explore the use of the Gems, Rock Gem was a very real thing
    - Showed off Double Dance
    - 2nd Best Choice Scarfer in the game

    I would definitely consider it, it was very close to making the cut, and I could see it there over Latios (who I've grown iffy about now)
  14. Stratos

    Stratos Banned deucer.

    Aug 26, 2010
    You're missing the point if you think this thread simply exists to catalog powerful threats. Garchomp is certainly a strong Pokemon, but he "follows the rules"—strong attacker with a couple hard counters (Skarm, Ferro), which every playstyle can answer without much trouble. Same with Keldeo (Jellicent, Latias) and for the most part Terrakion (gliscor, skarm, slowbro unless SD rock gem). They're all powerful threats, to be sure, but if you asked someone who just came back to the game after gen IV to make a team, those three wouldn't catch them off guard. This thread is for Pokemon that either A) forced us to literally redefine Pokemon in order to adapt or B) would make an entirely different metagame if they were banned. "Standard Sweepers" do neither—though I could make an exception for Keldeo, as 2hkoing bulky resists makes you a non-standard sweeper.

    That's the same problem with people suggesting Genesect. He was good as hell, yes, but we'd already learned how to deal with VoltTurn by the time he came around. The only thing that kept him from just being another mark in VoltTurn's favor was his ability to lure Heatran for Dugtrio to crush.

    Overall, kd's list does a good job at portraying the metagame:

    12) is the influence of VoltTurn
    11) is the poster boy for weather wars
    10) is singlehandedly responsible for the death of stall
    9) epitomizes the BW power creep and the uselessness of neutral bulk
    8) is why every team needs a scarfer
    7) took what I just said about 8) and threw it out the window. With every other threat in OU forcing you to run an offensive team, how do you counter a Pokemon that poops on offensive teams? It forced us to think offense-defensively (stupid phrase I know), a skill that basically stuck throughout BW.
    6) The first of the Pokemon that didn't change much, but would if it were banned. Self-explanatory.
    5) The only one on the list I disagree with; landorus seems to be to be another typical sweeper/wallbreaker like chomp/keld/terrak.
    4) is why every team needs SR.
    3) See 7), but he's unbanned.
    2) see 6)
    1) lol

    edit: whoops, ninjad by kd
  15. Meru

    Meru the pay back
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a defending SPL Champion

    Aug 7, 2005
    Good summary of BW1/BW2 game changers. Looking at our current meta now, it is soooo weird to think there used to be a time when almost nobody ran Choice Scarfers, but that is pretty much what the Excadrill meta was.

    Also love the Jellicent mention. That thing ALWAYS gets a slot on my stall teams just because it is tailor made to be a spinblocker.
  16. Ehrmantraut


    Feb 24, 2013
    i respectfully disagree with that. genesect was revolutionary because nothing had the combination of great typing, phenomenal coverage, good ability, decent speed and bulk. it was the total package in a lot of ways. being the king of OU for at least a while, much longer on PO should give it a spot
  17. MikeDawg

    MikeDawg Pita

    May 30, 2013
    Lots of things have that package

    And that's why they are in ubers.

    Although I wasn't around to /play/ in the genesect era, I saw all of the discussions, and it seems like nothing more than a newly introduced poke that took its sweet time getting bumped to ubers.

    Should we put darkrai in? It was in ou for a bit and it really defined it!

    There is no point in putting ubers into the list

    Because their ability to fit into this list is derived from the fact that they are broken.

    Excadrill is the only controversial exception because it ran a long course and its ban is still controversial and it basically sums up the idea of swift swimmers+sand rushers+etc: Strong ass mons that scarfers can't kill
  18. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio Over9000
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Aug 16, 2007
    I think Terrakion (and later Keldeo) are important to the list simply because they absolutely re-define the definition of "Speed." Fuck, they re-define the definition of "survivability" (bulk + Speed on an attacker). They're basically the sole reason "100" is almost meaningless-- the Landorus and Garchomp's Speed stats, which were so clinche before, are almost indifferent from 100, just because of Terrakion and Keldeo.

    Until DPPt, something like Garchomp was completely un-precidented (top-tier bulk + total troll Speed Tier). It re-defined what an offensive Pokemon could be in DPPt. However, I'd argue that Terrakion (+Keldeo) took that even one step forward. To have something as bulk and insanely powerful as Terrakion running around at 108 Speed with potential Sand boosts completely changed how all teams had to be built. The fact that Terrakion, while one-dimension in coverage and offensive type (compared to something like Infernape), was sooo sooo flexible in execution (scarf, band, double dance, sub sets, the salac set, etc. etc.) had a huge impact on how people built teams-- and what Pokemon were even good.

    while it was never as efficient without U-Turn, once Scarf Terrakion became popularized, this issue of Speed was compounded even more-- to the point where almost nothing else even bothered carrying a scarf in any real frequency afterwords. Even Pokemon like Haxorus and Landorus-I who defined scarfing fell off the map as scarfers-- fuck even Garchomp-- just because they'd never catch up to Terrakion. And there was Tyranitar to make sure Latios didn't get any funny ideas (and never got too popular with a scarf).

    Dunno, I think Terrak really did shape the game-- though it's true he was never suspected.

    Not that there's anything on the list I'd say doesn't belong there. Maybe Reuniclus, just because it kind of fizzled as time went on (and after Alakazam showed up). Jellicent too is... well, of course the whole meta revolves around it being there, but I have a hard time really respecting this poke when I can't help but think Rotom-A was better, and would have been better overall had it gotten to keep its ghost type in some forme.
  19. Sam

    Sam regular belle
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Tiering Contributoris an Administratoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
    UU Leader

    Nov 9, 2011
    Honestly I do think Genesect deserves a spot on here. Yes, it wasn't around very long. But undeniably, its time in OU was certainly Genesect's metagame. It single handedly dropped GOOD pokemon such as Celebi almost out of the tier, while forced a lot of changes on some other ones (a lot more Latios carried HP Fire when Genesect was around, and Scarf Latios also became a bit more popular at this time).

    Genesect most certainly did also affect team building at the time. Genesect greatly increased Sun's viability, so first and foremost a lot of teams had to be more prepared for the 'GeneSun' teams, and Sun in general. Genesect greatly increased the usage of Heatran, and the GeneSun team archetype even made some unusual sets viable (RestTalk Shed Shell Heatran, anyone?). A lot of other threats, such as many Dragon-type mons took a hit in usage as Genesect was too good of a dragon-killer to really justify their usage most of the time (besides those that could outspeed, such as scarf Mence, which arguably became more viable because of this). Not to mention the sheer power of the LO RP set, which again could only be reliably stopped by Heatran for the most part. Because of Scarf Genesect, there was a bigger focus on entry hazards as well, as they were a (unreliable) way of stopping Genesect.

    Overall, Genesect really shaped the metagame at an unprecedented level. It took a long time for things to stabilize after that (Celebi was still low in usage for a while despite being a very good answer to Keldeo, and some pokemon such as Haxorus and Reuniclus never really reached the usage levels they were at before Genesect came along, though I suppose this could just be part of the BW2 transition). It is most certainly in the OU HoF, in my opinion.
  20. FreeFormJazz


    Apr 23, 2012
    I agree with the frog being number 1, but Genesect absolutely needs a place
  21. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio Over9000
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Aug 16, 2007
    ^Not really. I don't think Genosect did any more in BW2 than Darkrai, Shaymin-S, or Drizzle + Kingdra did in round 1 of BW.
  22. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Banned deucer.

    Jan 26, 2011
    Well, Genesect was the only one that forced teambuilders to drop IVs or run negative natures to avoid certain download boosts. (I don't think that's enough to buy a slot on this list, especially when it is already so difficult to find anything that could be removed)
  23. MikeDawg

    MikeDawg Pita

    May 30, 2013
    Yeah, switching 4 evs from hp to spdef isn't all that significant of an effect :P

    Really, what did genesect do? Bar have pokes tweak some evs it basically rampaged through the tier, looking at past usage statistics it didn't really centralize anything or keep anything major in check or anything that the current members do. It just swept and contributed to the already prevelant volt-turn. (Plus it's not in ou)
  24. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

    Mar 2, 2011
    Excellent list kd24, the only one I am unsure about is Dugtrio, and I think Rotom-W and Excadrill should be a tad bit higher IMO.

    The Genesect meta, while memorable, was also extremely short, if Genesect actually stayed around, it might have been a stronger force, but at the end of the day it was banned after a few months.

    On Terrakion, it never got its chance to really shine as the true monster it is, during the Excadrill meta it was easily checked by Excadrill and a lot of teams were much more defensive than today to counter Excadrill. When the Excadrill was banned, Terrakion was overshadowed by the omnipresent Volt-turn that was much more prevalent than it is today, and finally in BW2 it became a bit overshadowed by the numerous powerhouses introduced.
  25. Vertex

    Vertex formerly ballislife
    is a Pre-Contributor

    May 2, 2013
    Nice list kd24, but I think Tornadus-T should be a bare make-it. Surprised. It truly made rain a frightening force. One would just put Tornadus-T, Keldeo, Politoed and Entry Hazard stacking core and you could say GG. Not to mention, when it was banned, Zapdos dropped a ton, same with Slowking and Blissey a little bit.

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