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Keldeo (Analysis) (QC 3/3) (GP 2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Harsha, Jul 9, 2012.

  1. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    ------------------------------------------------
    QC Approvals: PK Gaming, shrang, Nachos
    GP Approvals: Engineer Pikachu, Mafeking
    Status: Copyediting
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    [​IMG]
    Keldeo

    [Overview]

    <p>Keldeo may arguably be the cutest Pokemon in the OU tier, but that's not all there is to this pretty pony! With a great base 129 Special Attack and a good base 108 Speed, it has all the tools it needs to punch holes in opposing teams with relative ease. With Secret Sword, it becomes one of the only special attackers in the entire metagame capable of getting past Chansey and Blissey with ease. With all of these pros, it's hard to imagine that there are reasons to not use Keldeo, but sadly, this is the case. While Keldeo has great STAB coverage, especially with access to powerful moves such as Hydro Pump and Secret Sword, it has a very shallow movepool. In fact, what walls Keldeo is usually determined solely by the moves it runs. Keldeo is usually limited to running its STABs and a Hidden Power of choice for coverage, but this pony certainly isn't one-sided. With a great boosting option in Calm Mind, the ability to run power-boosting items such as Life Orb or Choice Specs, and the ability to speed up with Choice Scarf, Keldeo can definitely wreak havoc on opposing teams.</p>

    [INSERT CHOICE SCARF SET HERE!]

    [SET]
    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 3: Secret Sword
    move 4: Hidden Power Ghost / Hidden Power Ice
    item: Leftovers / Life Orb
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Keldeo's Calm Mind set is fairly straightforward&mdash;essentially, the goal is to attain enough Calm Mind boosts and then sweep. With great STAB moves, Keldeo can often do just that. Keldeo's high Special Attack in conjunction with its base 108 Speed allows it to outspeed every relevant threat, bar Latios, Latias, and Starmie, and sweep with relative ease. Hydro Pump has tremendous power, especially under rain, and while Surf has less power, it is a viable alternative. Secret Sword is another STAB move, and while it lacks the power of Focus Blast, its value lies in its effect: it hits the opponent's Defense instead of Special Defense. This allows Keldeo to bypass some standard special walls, such as Chansey and Blissey, which is invaluable to its sweeping. Both Hidden Power Ghost and Hidden Power Ice have their uses; the former deals damage to Jellicent—who walls Keldeo otherwise—and Latias on the switch-in, while the latter allows Keldeo to hit Dragon-types much harder.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs of the set maximize Keldeo's Special Attack and Speed, the two tools that it needs in order to sweep effectively. While Modest may seem like a decent choice as a nature, the benefits of Timid far outweigh the perks of Modest&mdash;generally, tying Terrakion, Infernape, Cobalion, and beating out Thundurus-T, Salamence, Garchomp, and other Speed demons that plague the OU metagame is a far more important job.</p>

    <p>Leftovers allows Keldeo to be a sturdier sweepers&mdash;one that can take a few resisted hits without worrying too much about health&mdash;while Life Orb provides a major source of power that all Pokemon must fear, especially under the rain. If these two items don't intrigue you, Lum Berry can always be used, as it avoids Toxic from Jellicent and can nab an extra turn of setup. In order to appreciate just how powerful a +1 Life Orb Hydro Pump in the rain from Keldeo is, a few calcs may be necessary:</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculation">
    <li>+1 Hydro Pump (rain) vs. 4/0 Dragonite 87.96% - 103.7% (Multiscale broken)</li>
    <li>+1 Hydro Pump (rain) vs. 4/0 Salamence 115.1% - 135.5%</li>
    <li>+1 Hydro Pump (rain) vs. 88/0 Gyarados 80.7% - 95.2%</li>
    <li>+1 Hydro Pump (rain) vs. 4/0 Garchomp 181.8% - 214.5%</li>
    <li>+1 Hydro Pump (rain) vs. 252/0 Tentacruel 67.0% - 78.8%</li>
    <li>+1 Hydro Pump (rain) vs. 252/0 Chansey 52.1% - 61.5%</li>
    <li>+1 Hydro Pump (rain) vs. 4/252+ Blissey 51.1% - 60.4%</li>
    </ul>

    <p>Okay, you probably get the point now. Keldeo is super powerful. While all of these calculations are in rainy conditions, one can use Keldeo effectively on sand or hail teams as well. However, one has to be very careful when running Keldeo with a Life Orb in one of these weathers, as Life Orb and weather damage will add up quickly. Keldeo appreciates spinners a lot, as they can rid the field of Toxic Spikes and allow Keldeo to set up more easily. Keldeo also enjoys the company of Politoed, as rain support can be deadly when paired with Keldeo. Oddly enough, Tyranitar is a great partner for Keldeo as well, as it can demolish Latios, Latias, Celebi, and Jellicent, all the Pokemon that give Keldeo a hard time.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Hydro Pump
    move 2: Secret Sword
    move 3: Hidden Power Ghost / Hidden Power Electric
    move 4: Icy Wind / Surf
    item: Choice Specs
    nature: Timid / Modest
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>While Keldeo's other sets are mainly based around sweeping, Choice Specs Keldeo is meant to break down walls. However, that's not to say it cannot sweep&mdash;if all Pokemon on an opponent's team are slower than Keldeo, the immediate power granted by Choice Specs certainly can allow Keldeo to smash through teams. Generally, the move Keldeo will use most often is Hydro Pump, and Secret Sword provides a solid secondary STAB attack that allows Keldeo to rip through Chansey, Blissey, Kyurem-B, and other Pokemon that won't be hit for too much damage by Hydro Pump. The choice between Hidden Power Ghost and Hidden Power Electric is dependent on what your team needs; Hidden Power Ghost surprises Jellicent and Celebi, but Hidden Power Electric can still hit Jellicent and take down opposing Water-types such as Politoed and Gyarados. However, Hydro Pump hits most Water-type Pokemon hard even if they resist it, so one should take all relevant damage outputs into account before making a choice. Icy Wind in the last moveslot allows Keldeo to hit Latias that try and switch in super effectively, with the added effect of lowering their Speed. Some variants of Latias are 2HKOed, while Latios will face the same fate as long as they don't hold a Choice Scarf. Surf provides a reliable STAB move to use in the late-game though, so the last moveslot depends on preference.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Choice Specs Keldeo's EVs are standard for any special attacker. Like always, a Timid nature and 252 Speed EVs allows Keldeo to tie all opposing base 108 Speed Pokemon and beat out anything slower. However, a Modest nature is also viable on this set because it simply allows Keldeo to pack more power&mdash;this can be important if Keldeo is the primary wallbreaker for the team. Speed isn't as necessary on this set unless one wants to sweep with it in the late-game, but the presence of Tornadus-T and other speedy Pokemon makes sweeping with Keldeo much harder.</p>

    <p>Rain support really allows this set to shine, as it provides another boost to Keldeo's already-powerful STAB Hydro Pump. Even most Dragon-types that resist Water-type attacks will fall to Keldeo's onslaught. Because Keldeo will do a lot of switching as a result of being locked into one move, having a spinner to remove entry hazards is very helpful, though not always necessary as Spikes are not too common and Toxic Spikes are even less common. However, the durability of this set is greatly raised when one pairs it with a spinner, so Rapid Spin should always be considered. As far as other options go, Hidden Power Grass is viable to smite Gastrodon, but it doesn't really provide much other than that. The moveset is much looser for Choice Specs Keldeo than any other Keldeo set because it simply is supposed to break walls, so depending on the walls you need to remove, you can mix and match moves.</p>

    [SET]
    name: SubCM
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Calm Mind
    move 3: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 4: Secret Sword
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Keldeo's SubCM set is not very different from the Calm Mind set, but it does have some notable pros and cons that set it apart. Substitute grants immunity to status-inducing moves, such as Will-O-Wisp and Toxic, and also protects Keldeo from potential revenge killers, so Keldeo can clean fairly effectively. On the other hand, Substitute prevents Keldeo from being able to even touch Jellicent, and Keldeo's already-limited coverage becomes even thinner. If one is willing to look past that, though, SubCM Keldeo can be fearsome, as its limited coverage provides just enough to hit a majority of the metagame hard. Once Keldeo is able to nab a few Calm Mind boosts, Secret Sword and Hydro Pump (or Surf, if you like to play it safe) provide all the tools one needs for an effective sweep.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs allow Keldeo to tie opposing base 108 Speed Pokemon and beat out anything slower, so it outpaces the majority of the metagame. While running a Modest nature is tempting, a Timid nature is necessary in this Speed-dependent metagame. One can attempt to edit the EV spread and allot more EVs into HP to survive Amoonguss's Giga Drain after a boost or two, but this is generally inefficient and harmful to Keldeo's sweeping ability. Leftovers is the item of choice because it allows Keldeo to heal up damage that Substitute inflicts, but more daring people can run a Life Orb. However, doing so will make Keldeo very vulnerable to weather, and it may not be able to sweep for as long as one might like.</p>

    <p>Keldeo remains walled eternally by Jellicent if it runs this set. Other counters to Keldeo will also have a good time because of the lack of Hidden Power coverage. For this reason, your team needs to have a good way of removing opposing Jellicent, Celebi, Latias, and other problematic Pokemon; Choice Band Tyranitar is an excellent candidate for this job if you don't mind the weather. Scizor also does well in this role, though it's a bit less effective in removing Jellicent. If one does not want to run Tyranitar, rain support is also an option. With rain, Keldeo's Water-type STAB move will be much more powerful; however, this comes with the drawback of having even more of a Jellicent weakness. Toxic Spikes support works wonders against some of Keldeo's counters because it can calmly boost behind a Substitute while it's primary check loses a lot of health to poisoning. On the flip side, Keldeo needs to have Toxic Spikes removed because they will hamper its sweep immensely by stunting its longevity.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Keldeo's other options are almost as shallow as its movepool. While Keldeo has access to a great boosting move in Swords Dance, its low base Attack doesn't do it many favors. If you aren't using one of the above sets, there is probably a Pokemon that you should be using instead of Keldeo.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Keldeo's counters are generally split into two groups: those that can wall it no matter what, and those that can wall some of its sets, but not all. Perhaps the best Keldeo counter out there is Slowking; despite its lower tier status, it remains a very effective way to always beat Keldeo (provided it runs Psyshock). However, other options to take down Keldeo do exist. Amoonguss does very well, and with Regenerator, it can constantly switch out to regain health. However, should Keldeo be behind a Substitute and have a sufficient amount of boosts to where Giga Drain will not break the Substitute, the Amoonguss user is in bad condition. The same applies to Celebi, as specially defensive versions with Perish Song completely shut down Keldeo; however, with Leaf Storm, Celebi can do much more damage and deal with Keldeo more quickly. Latias with Psyshock can generally switch into Keldeo, and with a 252 HP / 252 Spe spread and a Timid nature, it won't be 2HKOed by Keldeo's Choice Specs Icy Wind. For this reason, it remains a good check to Keldeo, but it won't be able to take on another Pokemon reliably after the skirmish. Jellicent is in the same boat&mdash;it's a great check to Keldeo as it is immune to both of Keldeo's STAB attacks with Water Absorb and can badly poison Keldeo with Toxic, but many Keldeo run Hidden Power Ghost to take on Jellicent, so one should be wary. It should be noted that Keldeo's SubCM set cannot touch Jellicent at all, though it can attempt to stall out the jellyfish.</p>

    <p>Keldeo has many more checks than counters, though. With a great base 108 Speed, one probably should wonder why&mdash;this is because there are many faster Choice Scarf Pokemon that can easily prey on our favorite pony's weaknesses, and with other faster threats looming, Keldeo cannot always sweep as quickly as it would like. Alakazam, Latios, and Starmie are great users of Psyshock that can get by Keldeo with ease, even if it happens to be at +6. Additionally, Tornadus-T and Tornadus-I both outspeed Keldeo, and with Hurricane, they can decimate it; Jolteon does the same with Thunder or Thunderbolt. Most dedicated revenge killers can get by Keldeo, including, but not limited to, Thundurus-T, Salamence, Terrakion, and Rotom-W. However, one must keep in mind that most of these Pokemon cannot switch into Keldeo, and even though many resist Keldeo's attacks, rain-boosted, STAB, Choice Specs-boosted Hydro Pump will mercilessly annihilate all of them. Of course, most of these Pokemon are not checks to Keldeo at all if it chooses to carry a Choice Scarf, so one must be wary and scout out the Keldeo set before attempting to revenge kill it.<p>

    <p>Finally, a few more Pokemon can stand up to Keldeo's wrath. Even at +1, Roserade can OHKO Keldeo with Leaf Storm. Swords Dance Virizion can attack Keldeo's unboosted Defense with Leaf Blade, though Secret Sword will do a big chunk of damage should Keldeo win the Speed tie. Tentacruel with Toxic can wear down any Keldeo set except for SubCM set, which will actually beat Tentacruel. Similarly, Toxic Spikes do a number to hamper Keldeo's survivability, and the setup sweeper sets find it very hard to play through Toxic. Finally, Dragonite does well against Keldeo, but one always needs to be wary of Hidden Power Ice; also, one should remember that even though Dragonite resists Hydro Pump, Choice Specs and rain are two factors to keep in mind before attempting to tank!</p>
  2. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    Hey Harsha for the Specs set it can look like this:

    move 1: Hydro Pump
    move 2: Secret Sword
    move 3: Hidden Power Ghost / Hidden Power Ice
    move 4: Icy Wind / Surf

    Icy Wind is there because it allows you to beat Latias because it 2HKOes with Psyshock and you 2HKO with Specs Icy Wind, and since Icy Wind lowers Latias's Speed, Keldeo can KO it. It can also nail Tornadus-T on the switch-in for the 2HKO. Of course, the added power of Hidden Power Ice is also notable, and the main reason to use Icy Wind is actually to have a Ghost-type move for perfect coverage and an Ice-type move for Dragon-types. Surf would still be viable because it has perfect accuracy. It would be mentioned to be HP Ghost + Icy Wind and HP Ice + Surf.

    You could put Scarf in OO. Oh yeah and maybe mention that SD is really bad.
  3. complete legitimacy

    complete legitimacy Honko's Happy Funtime With Men
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    I wouldn't say Swords Dance is really bad, although it's definitely OO. It's a pretty good lure set, since it can hit Salamence and Dragonite with Stone Edge or Celebi with X-Scissor. Otherwise, it doesn't really beat anything that the other sets can't since Keldeo checks are used for their resistances anyway. But the main reason why it would be OO in my opinion is because it's outclassed by Virizion, which has higher Attack and better typing both offensively and defensively for a Swords Dance set.
  4. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    SD can't lure anything unless you put Secret Sword on there for some reason. It's telegraphed because Keldeo will have its normal form. Also that attack is really dreadful.

    Anyway, agreeing that Icy Wind should be slashed on the specs set, for the coverage more than anything else.

    edit: it doesn't matter how it is on the sims. It's like that in the actual game, which is what matters.
  5. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    If we are digging out of the barrel for swords dance, scald also deserves a mention for some sort of bulk set.
  6. complete legitimacy

    complete legitimacy Honko's Happy Funtime With Men
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    In all my experiences with Keldeo using Secret Sword on PO neither I nor my opponent has ever been forced to change to Keldeo-R or have it done automatically, although I don't know if that's the case on PS!

    EDIT: Ok yeah, if it's blatantly obvious that you're not running Secret Sword then there's no point to even using SD as a lure. Sorry about that.
  7. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    We should assume that Keldeo behaves like on the cartridge at all times. I firmly stand at that SD should be warned against and the downside of the forme without Secret Sword. Bulky CM could get OO I guess, something like Calm Mind / Secret Sword / Scald / Substitute and 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpA Timid. On second thought, mention it in the AC of the SubCM, it could go there.
  8. SlimMan

    SlimMan

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    Hey Harsha. This looks great, but as an avid used of Specs Keldeo, that set needs some changing. Mainly, the set should be as follows:

    Hydro Pump
    Secret Sword
    Hidden Power Electric / Hidden Power Ghost
    Icy Wind / Surf

    Whether you use HP Electric and Icy Wind, or HP Ghost and Surf, you'll get perfect neutral coverage. But the first two options are very preferable because they offer much better super effective coverage. HP Electric 2HKOes Jellicent and Tentacruel, while OHKOing Gyarados. Honestly, I can't even say how easy it is to predict those switch-ins. And while HP Electric leaves you helpless against Lati@s, Icy Wind is an easy 2HKO on them, assuming you hit them on the switch-in (which is also fairly obvious). Icy Wind also OHKOes Salamence, and Dragonite (after Multiscale is broken) In tandem, HP Electric and Icy Wind are the best moves for the 3rd and 4th slots.

    However, HP Electric offers very mediocre neutral coverage. It needs Icy Wind to pair up with, in order to handle most of Keldeo's checks. If you're not using Icy Wind, then you definitely want HP Ghost for the perfect neutral coverage.

    Also on the Specs set, mention Volcarona as an amazing partner. What counters Volcarona? Jellicent, Tentacruel, Gyarados, Dragonite, and to a lesser extent, Salamence. That list is almost identical to Keldeo's list. Specs Keldeo basically forces your opponent to play those Pokemon early on, leaving them too weak to stop a Volcarona sweep. It's awesome. Basically Volcarona's only other counter is Heatran which gets wrecked by Keldeo. So yeah, mention the incredible offensive-synergy that goes on between Specs Keldeo and Volcarona.

    Lastly, add Scarf Keldeo to OO. Mention that it's viable due to 108 Spe and 129 SpAtk, and it can clean up lategame, but that Keldeo's STABs don't hit any noteworthy sweepers, which is why Terrakion is a much better revenge-killer.
  9. asterat

    asterat

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    Why use hidden power ghost when hidden power dark gets an additional IV in both physical and special defense. I know it loses coverage against toxicroak but a resisted secret sword hits 91% as hard ajnd toxicroak is really uncommon.
  10. EonX

    EonX The One and Only
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    Justified boosts is the main thing. Terrakion, Virizion, and Lucario would then all get Justified boosts and Virizion is already one of the few that can stomach a Hydro Pump, so it wouldn't be a complete shock to see it come in.
  11. Omicron

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    Hidden Power [whatever] won't be getting too much use anyway. Specs Keldeo like to simply spam Hydro Pump everywhere unless there is something like Gastrodon or Jellicent on the opposing team. It's not particularly important.

    I would also add that Toxic Spikes support can be extremely helpful in dealing with Jellicent on the SubCM set, as Jellicent can no longer wall Keldeo effectively, dying to toxic poison damage while Keldeo sets up all over it. SubCM also sets up on Tentacruel and even Amoonguss. With a few CM boosts under its belt, Amoonguss fails to break the sub with Giga Drain, and therefore cannot Clear Smog away the boosts.

    Keldeo can quite possibly run a more defensive set, something along the lines of Scald / Toxic / Calm Mind / Sub or w/e idk

    Probably OO material
  12. dice

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    I like the current arrangement since it gives the option of running Surf as well as icy wind. maybe slash lum on the cm set
  13. ginganinja

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    Don't actually know where you got that from. Giga Drain does 32.19 - 39% after a Calm Mind, which means that any Substitute you make get broken, and if you attempt to Calm Mind then Amoonguss hits you with a Spore or Clear Smog. Your Sub is still broken at +2 ffs, so I am pretty sure you cannot set up on it, unless you have something like perfect prediction or w.e
  14. Princess Bubblegum

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    Not entirely true:

    (24.69 - 29.62%) -- possible 4HKO

    There is a good 18% chance that it fails to break the sub at +2. I was going to bring this up in the Amoonguss thread, but a simply 28 special attack evs stops that from ever happening.

    I don't want to lose to sub CM keldeo, but I think I should bring this up:

    0 Gigadrain Amoonguss vs 252 / 0 +2 Keldeo(20.72 - 24.87%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

    Avoids breaking subs at +2.
  15. dice

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    I feel as though its going to create a power creep where keldeo will start making more bulky subs and in return more spa on amoonguss etc..
  16. asterat

    asterat

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    Yeah, no one else runs my weird sets
    I use spore/seed bomb/HP ice/stun spore on my amoonguss
  17. shrang

    shrang I AM CHAMPION CHRISTMAS!!
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    Okay, I've tested SubCM Keldeo in BW2 and it's still pretty good. Yeah, it's countered more easily by stuff like Jellicent that hard wall it, but it can get past many checks that other Keldeo sets can't get past, like Tentacruel. It's definitely worth its own set, IMO. The EV spread is perfectly usable, although there may be a more efficient one out there, but I haven't tested any others.
  18. PK Gaming

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    Don't forget to mention a possible SD set in OO.
  19. shrang

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    Yeah, this looks fine, although I'd like to see the checks and counters section to be a bit more comprehensive. Stuff I think you missed:

    - Slowking (Should be mentioned this is the BEST counter, lol, there is no way Keldeo will EVER break through a Slowking carrying Psyshock).
    - Latios - You mentioned Latias, but Latios can revenge kill Keldeo just fine with Psyshock too, even though he can't switch in anywhere near as easily.
    - Tentacruel - Needs Toxic to wear down CM and Specs, while it can't do anything to SubCM.
    - Tornadus-I
    - Starmie - A bit like Latios from the fact that it resists both Water / Fighting and can easily revenge kill with Psyshock
    - Jolteon
    - SD Virizion can speed-tie with Keldeo and smite it with Leaf Blade
    - Roserade can OHKO through Calm Mind with Leaf Storm
    - Dragonite for HP Ghost variants

    Other than that,
    [​IMG]

    QC APPROVED 2/3
  20. Nachos

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  21. yee

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    Hidden Power Grass needs a mention in the OO of the specs set because otherwise physically defensive Gastrodon can hard counter.
  22. Harsha

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    shrang, I took into account everything you said and implemented it, though the reason I didn't include everything at first is because some of them are shaky against Choice Specs Keldeo in the rain (e.g. Dragonite can get 2HKOed iirc, but meh). However, I'd agree that they're all pretty decent vs Keldeo so I'm fine writing them in. Thanks for the quick approvals everyone, I'll write this up shortly.

    Got your Hidden Power Grass too yee.
  23. Worldtour

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    I just realized something kind of important for a Swords Dance set that makes it even more annoying to use... Keldeo always has its Resolution Form when it has Secret Sword. Since every special Keldeo should be running that move, it cannot even lure anything in. When someone sees Keldeo without its resolution form, they know it is probably a Swords Dance set.
  24. lmitchell0012

    lmitchell0012 Wi-Fi Blacklisted

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    Sorry if this sounds stupid, but is it possible to use HP dark instead of HP ghost?? Because if you're running HP ghost, it's impossible to have max speed, correct?? The only real difference would be that you wouldn't hit virizion as hard (and possibly give it a boost). But, it would also mean that you'd no longer be slower than terrakion or virizion.
  25. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Hidden Power Ghost is perfectly legal with a Speed IV of 31; if it didn't, did you think it'd be such a good decision on the QC's part? ;)

    Also, we're not choosing Hidden Power Dark due to Keldeo having more overall coverage with a Ghost-type move, enabling it to hit Toxicroak whenever required. Additionally, Hidden Power Dark raises the Attack of Justified users, especially Virizion and Terrakion, both of whom can win the speed tie and KO with their respective STAB moves.

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