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Keldeo

Discussion in 'Dream World' started by New World Order, Jan 23, 2012.

  1. New World Order

    New World Order Licks Toads
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    Keldeo is one of the premier Rain abusers in DW OU, and for good reason too. It occupies the same Speed tier as other fellow OU Fighting-type compatriots Terrakion, Infernape, and Virizion. However, Keldeo also boasts a 129 base Special Attack. If a Pokemon doesn't have a Water resistance alongside decent Special bulk, or an outright immunity, and isn't named Chansey or Blissey, chances are they are going to go down to Hydro Pump. What complicates this is that Keldeo has access to a signature move, Secret Sword, which is a slightly more powerful Fighting-type Psyshock. This means that even widely regarded Special walls have difficulty walling the kind pony.

    [​IMG]
    Base Stats:
    HP: 91
    Atk: 72
    Def: 90
    SpA: 129
    SpD: 90
    Spe: 108

    Perhaps the only thing holding Keldeo back is its shallow movepool. But it already has most of the tools it needs. It has access to a wickedly powerful Rain boosted Hydro Pump, and a signature STAB move, Secret Sword, which grants it coverage allows it to bypass many dedicated Special walls. It also has Calm Mind to burgeon its ridiculous Special Attack to sky-high levels. While it must rely on Hidden Power for further coverage, Keldeo is still a threat to be reckoned with. Oh yeah, and a resisted Rain boosted Hydro Pump does about as much as a super effective Hidden Power. Here are its most prominent sets.

    Keldeo @ Life Orb / Leftovers
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Hydro Pump / Surf / Scald
    - Secret Sword
    - Hidden Power Ghost / Hidden Power Ice

    And here we have one of the most powerful Calm Mind sweepers in the tier. Offensive Calm Mind Keldeo can power through all but a select few Pokemon, such as Latias and Celebi, with just its two STAB moves and a Hidden Power for coverage. The Life Orb variant just punches holes left and right, and with Rain support, a +1 Hydro Pump can blast through many Water-resists as well. Secret Sword is just icing on the cake, as Blissey and Chansey, the bane of most Special sweepers, are swiftly disposed of. Leftovers, Surf, and Scald are all inferior options offensively, but allow the user to play it more safely.

    Keldeo @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk) or Modest Nature (+SpA, -Atk)
    - Hydro Pump
    - Surf / Scald
    - Secret Sword
    - Hidden Power Ghost / Hidden Power Ice

    Power, power, power. That's what this set is all about. Although it retains the same coverage moves as the Offensive Calm Mind variant, 9/10 times you'll just be clicking Hydro Pump. Very few Pokemon in the tier can survive a 2HKO from a Rain boosted Specs Hydro Pump, coming off 129 base Special Attack. Secret Sword is pretty much exclusively for the pink blobs, while Hidden Power is used to hit those that can take both of Keldeo's STAB moves.

    Keldeo @ Leftovers
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 4 Hp / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Substitute
    - Hydro Pump / Surf / Scald
    - Secret Sword

    So Keldeo is very difficult to tank hits from. With great coverage and Special Attack, you would probably be better off trying to status Keldeo and cut its effectiveness. This is where Substitute comes in. Although Keldeo loses coverage in Hidden Power, keep in mind that a resisted Rain boosted Hydro Pump is not much weaker than a super effective Hidden Power. While Keldeo is now walled cold by Jellicent, the ability to dodge status ailments could prove clutch.

    Counters:

    Latias: Latias is about as close as you can get to a true counter to Keldeo. Thanks to its impressive Special bulk and a defensive typing that grants it resistances to both Water and Fighting, it is one of few Pokemon in the tier that can come in and take Keldeo's hits comfortably. Latias can also Roar out the blue pony should it accumulate too many Calm Mind boosts.

    Celebi: Celebi is in much the same boat as Latias. Its stats and typing allow it to take most of what Keldeo can throw at it, while it can respond with a powerful Grass STAB of its own. Celebi can also defeat last man stat-upper Keldeo in a pinch with Perish Song if need be.

    Jellicent: Jellicent may wall most of Keldeo's sets, thanks to an immunity to both its STABs, the problem is it can't do much in return. So yeah, Jellicent could probably burn it or something with Scald or Will-O-Wisp, but beyond that, it becomes a waiting game.

    Sun: This is probably the best way to stop the merry go round. Without its precious Rain, Keldeo's combat prowess becomes severely limited. Whereas the powerful Chlorophyll sweepers commonly found on Sun teams can make mincemeat out of it. However, keep in mind that Keldeo users wont let Politoed go down that quickly.

    Discuss
  2. Hawkstar

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    I'm a huge fan of the Specs set, but I use a Modest nature to get an extra 50 or so SAtk points. The loss of Speed hurts, but the ability to 2HKO everything in the metagame with SR up and a rain-boosted Hydro Pump except for Ferrothorn and Tentacuel really makes up for it.
  3. PrimeMinister

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    Lovin the specs set, but do you think that keldeo's average speed and good Sp atk could grant a scarf slash?

    Also with specs, I don't think scald deserves a slash because you're going for maximum offense, and it's power is beaten by surf and Hydro pump. Keldeo also wields respectable defenses, which means keldeo doesn't really need to carry stall. Maybe just slash surf and hydro pump?
  4. Tobes

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    So I tried the Specs set with rain support for a bit and goddamn does it hit like a nuke. Just about anything that does not resist Water is flat-out OHKO'd by rain-boosted Specs Hydro Pump. You're pretty much limited to Lati@s, Serperior, Jellicent, etc. to take one and not kneel over dead. Weather starters can mitigate the effects but none of them like taking STAB Secret Sword to the face (same goes for BlissChan), although that does make you Chandelure bait (not that your average Chandelure is ballsy enough to switch into Keldeo but you get the point). Hydro Pump / Secret Sword / HP Ice / Surf seems to me to be the best moveset, but if you're weak to Jellicent or Toxicroak you could go for HP Ghost / HP Psychic respectively (I don't really recommend that though). It's more suited for hazard dependent teams that CM Keldeo, since it focuses on pummeling things right off the bat. Spin support is cool too since this version switches out far more frequently than CM Keldeo.
  5. LighTz911

    LighTz911

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    Why not just slash Substitute in at the Calm Mind set instead of making a whole new one?

    Anyway, I could see stall teams in decline because of this, and yeah, the Specs set KOs almost anything which is scary...
  6. New Age Retro Hippie

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    why is aqua jet never mentioned when discussing rarity...er...i mean keldeo?
  7. NatGeo

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    Frankly, SD Keldeo isn't really the best idea in the world because you only have like 72 Attack, which is just god awful even with SD boosting its attack. You don't really KO much to be frank, and there are so many better sets Keldeo can run like Calm Mind or Choice Specs, which have much more attacking potential.
  8. jrrrrrrr

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    Yeah exactly Nat....Aqua Jet doesn't really hit anything, and the things it WOULD hit are better dealt with by other things in the tier. Excadrill can be taken out by Breloom etc, Chandelure can be taken out by Tyranitar etc...Aqua Jet isn't nearly as useful as that third attack/substitute
  9. Vemane

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    Imo, keldeo should only be using hp ice (unless your team needs otherwise)

    It comes down to hittin jellicent (for mediocre damage) or hitting the flying dragons (i think the obvious answer is apparent)

    Hp shouldnt be used for nuetral coverage. That would be like using mud shot for nuetral coverage... it's too weak. It should be used for se coverage
  10. V0x

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    I find that the flying Dragons (really only Dragonite) are usually prepared for (as in most teams carry Ice moves to the point that it won't be a huge issue) and they do not hinder a Keldeo sweep, whereas Jellicent is a huge annoyance trying to switch in to (throwing around status), has Recover, and thus harder to eliminate with other Pokemon. HP Ghost, if only for Jellicent and the Lati@s, is worth it IMO.
  11. Omicron

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    HP Ice hits the Lati twins just as hard as HP Ghost :P

    Basically, if you're running Keldeo without a way to deal with Dragonite, then you're using it wrong.
  12. shrang

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    Jellicent is easy to remove and isn't a very threatening at all. All you do is slap Choice Specs on your Chandelure and watch pringles get destroyed. Either that or you just grab a CB Tar and get to work. Dragonite, on the other hand, can sweep pretty much whenever it wants and is definitely something you'd want to get rid of ASAP. Jellicent? I keep it alive so you can set up on it with other stuff, lol.

    Just saying for the OP:
    - SubCM Keldeo loves Toxic Spikes. With two layers up, all Jellicent can do is stare at Keldeo's fine looking Sub and fail to do anything to it while it just dies from Toxic.

    Not to mention Latias can switch into anything from Keldeo, even a super effective Hidden Power, even with an offensive spread, and OHKO with Psyshock.
  13. V0x

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    The fact that Dragonite is so deadly means most of the time I myself over-prepare for it, and by the time I'm ready for Keldeo it isn't an issue. Jellicent on the other hand, is not so pressing that it's dead when Keldeo comes around, so I like having a way to eliminate it without switching. (Besides, Specs Hydro Pump maims DNite).
  14. Phobiaphobia

    Phobiaphobia

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    Considering all the hype Keldeo's been getting, I thought I'd give my two cents' worth on the subject.

    Personally, I feel Hidden Power shouldn't be present on Keldeo's movesets as far as possible. Sure, Specs/Scarfed (hype about Scarf Keldeo has been significantly less intense) sets can run HP - it's going to essentially be a filler move anyway, much like the third and fourth moves on Banded/Scarfed Terrakion, a rampant threat in the current metagame. Calm Mind Keldeo though, should avoid running Hidden Power.

    Keldeo has a dearth of counters, but what counters there are do their job. Dragonite, Jellicent (strictly speaking this is more of a check) and Celebi are 3 of the most frequently brought up ones. In theory, Keldeo runs HP to get around these counters, allowing it to continue sweeping unhindered. Unfortunately, this won't work out in practice - Dragonite eats HP Ice with Multiscale in effect; it's also worth noting that Roost causes HP Ice to become a mere x2 effective. Especially when used in conjunction with Multiscale, and with Dragonite having powerful physical attacks and Dragon Dance at its disposal, Keldeo will be hard-pressed to get this particular counter out of the way, HP or not. As for HP Ghost, x2 effectiveness on Celebi, Jellicent and Lati@s isn't going to prevent those threats from surviving one and retaliating with Giga Drain/Leaf Storm, status and Psyshock/Psychic respectively. One would be better off including solid counters to the aforementioned Keldeo-counters in their teams (any decent team should be able to acheive this); this opens up CM Keldeo's last moveslot to possible alternatives.

    And CM Keldeo does have alternatives, notably Roar, Psych Up, and Taunt. Roar should ideally be used with proper prediction and entry hazard support; it handily sends hopeful Keldeo-counters right back at the opponent. Psych Up can be used to get past certain (other) Calm Mind users, allowing one to proceed from there. Taunt shuts down several common Pokémon (we're not just limited to Jellicent here) who are only too happy to riddle Keldeo with status and cripple its sweeping capabilities. Safeguard and Toxic are lesser, but not improbable options.

    Anyway, about Keldeo's counters, there're actually more of them then we might think. Scarfed Rotom-W gives Keldeo trouble with Volt Switch. Although it's rather sad flavor-wise, Virizion is also a solid Keldeo counter. Jolteon handily Thunderbolts non-Scarfed Keldeo for the kill. Vaporeon and Tentacruel work like lesser Jellicent in this context. Reaching down into UU, Slowbro walls Keldeo's guts, much as it walls Terrakion. Well-played Sun teams make Keldeo cry (going off-tangent, Sand teams are going to plummet in usage in the incipience of Keldeo's release - it slaughters Ttar).

    All-in-all, Keldeo is largely a one-trick pony, but that absolutely does not mean it should be taken lightly. That being said, it's far more vulnerable than what current opinions about it might suggest. I anticipate its release with some distaste.
  15. Omicron

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    Keldeo may be a one-trick pony, but a lot of what you've said about its abilities are completely incorrect. First of all, on Choice sets, you need to run the most coverage you can get unless there is absolutely no better option. Keldeo does not get Trick, Perish Song, or anything of that nature, so a Choice set with Hydro Pump / Secret Sword / HP Ice or Ghost / Surf is perfectly fine. Secondly, Dragonite will never be able to Roost before Keldeo uses Hidden Power Ice unless it has a boost from Dragon Dance, and Stealth Rock is incredibly prevalent in the metagame, meaning that Multiscale will more often than not, be broken. Keldeo is also not KOed by an unboosted Outrage, meaning that it can 2HKO with Hidden Power Ice if Dragonite does not use Dragon Dance on the first hit. And even then, this is assuming that Multiscale is active, which won't always be the case. Specially Defensive Dragonite does do a number on Keldeo with Thunder Wave / Dragon Tail to phaze, however. Jellicent cannot do jack-shit to Keldeo besides Will-O-Wisp or Toxic, while Keldeo just sets up with Calm Mind. Celebi is a similar case; unless it runs 252 SpA investment AND Leaf Storm, it isn't getting past a +1 Keldeo, who can just continue to boost up and take less and less damage except from (lol) Swords Dance Celebi. In addition, Celebi is a non-existent sight in Dream World due to the overbearing presence of Pokemon such as Shadow Tag Chandelure and Genesect. Latias and Specially Defensive Dragonite are probably your best "counters" to Keldeo.

    As for your sentiments towards CM Keldeo, the alternatives you listed are much less useful than either Substitute or Hidden Power. Roar is usually used on defensive Pokemon / sets, and while Keldeo has decent bulk, it really should be taking advantage of that sexy base 129 Special Attack and base 108 Speed. Psych Up is a terribly gimmmicky move, and shouldn't be considered on any serious competitive team. Taunt has its uses, such as preventing phazing, but Substitute is more useful in general, as it also blocks status, and after a few boosts, the Substitutes are difficult to break through with special attacks. Safeguard and Toxic are also usually used on defensive Pokemon / sets, and Keldeo does actually have a third coverage move choice in Hidden Power, or Substitute to block status etc.

    The counters that you suggest are hardly counters at all. Counters are defined as Pokemon who can easily switch in without taking much damage, take another hit, and strike back. Rotom-W, Virizion, Jolteon, and Slowbro all do not fit this definition. Rotom-W cannot switch into Secret Sword safely, as it takes upwards of 50% while switching in, and it cannot OHKO after a Calm Mind boost. Virizion takes Hydro Pumps with ease, but like with Rotom-W, it gets destroyed by Secret Sword thanks to its measly Defense stat. Jolteon can definitely revenge kill Keldeo, but it cannot switch into any of its attacks, especially Hydro Pump, as it will easily OHKO. Slowbro may resist Keldeo's STAB moves, but it is handily slaughtered by a boosted Hidden Power Ghost or even Hydro Pump in the rain. Vaporeon and Tentacruel are decent "checks," but in no way are they "counters." Vaporeon can soak up Hydro Pump with Water Absorb, although it cannot do anything if Keldeo carries Calm Mind and Substitute, as its only hope is to Toxic it. From there, Keldeo can boost up until it can KO Vaporeon with Secret Sword. Tentacruel is in the same boat as Jellicent - it takes little from Keldeo's attacks, but it literally cannot do anything in return.

    A few more things, your reasoning about "well-played sun teams make Keldeo cry" is not really applicable, because now you are just theorizing what could happen in a battle. I could just as easily say that a well-played Keldeo can destroy a sun team, but I don't say that, because that means you are predicting battles, which is completely irrelevant to a Pokemon's capabilities. In addition, Keldeo can easily destroy Tyranitar, but that doesn't mean sand teams are completely incapable of doing anything - sand teams consist of far more than just Tyranitar, and Keldeo cannot hope to take down an entire team by itself. In fact, if you look at the usage statistics, sand is extremely popular in this metagame, more so than sun and maybe even rain.

    I apologize for the long response, but I felt the need to clarify a few things about Keldeo that you didn't seem to understand. Seems like you are a bit new to the metagame, as several "checks" you mentioned are non-existent in this metagame.

    Otherwise, tl;dr, welcome to Smogon!
  16. Phobiaphobia

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    Heh yes, it probably shows through that I'm a newb to this metagame; in fact I'll confess I my previous post was made in a standard OU rather than Dream World context. Didn't help that I used the term "counter" very loosely too; "check" was what I meant most of the time, and upon actually looking at this metagame, some of the stuff I rambled on about is indeed non-existent in DW. That being said, I'll stick to my sentiment of not running HP on Keldeo and having solid counters to Keldeo's counters (that's a mouthful) when teambuilding.

    Considering I'm new but quite enthusiastic about this metagame, I have lots of catching up to do. :P
  17. blarajan

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    Hey I would just like to make a suggestion...I've been playing around with ChestoResto Keldeo a lot and I have to say it's phenomenal. Just take a toxic, set the fuck up, Rest, and go to town on their team. It's pretty damn good!
  18. ala

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    That sounds really cool actually, I barely use hp Ice anyway :3
  19. blarajan

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    Calm Mind / Rest / Surf / Secret Sword @ Chesto Berry, if it wasn't obvious.
  20. Tobes

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    I can see that doing really well with Toxic Spikes support, as that's your only way of beating Jellicent. Amoonguss would likely still be annoying but you could easily stall it out of Giga Drain PP with enough Calm Minds under your belt just by doing Rest cycles, though that of course leaves you more vulnerable to well-timed switches to things like Serperior.

    I'm really considering trying that right now, but Specs Keldeo is just so good on offensive rain that I'm having a hard time convicing myself to do it. Maybe I'll make a team with Tentacruel support or something later.
  21. Zarco

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    Tried out specs Keldeo- yeah, don't underestimate this set. It's a lot like CB terrakion (who's already a monster in his own right, probably the hardest pokemon to switch into in OU) and give it water STAB (better neutral coverage than Fighting), a rain boost on hydro pump, sacred sword to break through most resists and kill off special walls (though you can actually 2hko blissey in the rain with hydro pump with modest, and at least some of the time with timid), and no defense drops from CC, in addition to water being a much better defensive type than rock and not weak to any priority. Few safe switch-ins, throw in a hidden power (I'd probably go ice, but ghost or grass hits Jellicent) and scald for an 100% accurate STAB that can burn random things, and there's really nothing safe from it. Of course, it can't set up like the CM set can, but you can break down walls fantastically. I'd pack a cleric and/or wish-passer to keep Keldeo around, because, similar to CB Terrakion, every time it comes in, you have a huge possiblity for taking KOs. It also helps rain get past Ttar and Ferro, which is hella nice.
  22. Aurora

    Aurora am checking again lol!
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    yeah the LO set is absolutely legendary; it can punch holes in just about everything
    the other day i was playing around and experimented with this set:

    Keldeo @ Leftovers
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
    Nature: Bold (-Atk, +Def)
    - Substitute
    - Calm Mind
    - Toxic
    - Hydro Pump

    it's awful...
    never use keldeo as a wall
  23. LizardMan

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    I OHKO'd a Breloom with a Spec'd rain Hydro Pump from Keldeo today. It gets so much neutrality.
  24. NixHex

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    What else would you expect? 120 x 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 / 2 = 202 against Breloom.
    NatGeo pointed this fun fact out to us a few months ago when the Keldeo silhouette was revealed:
    Modest Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump in rain + Stealth Rock to Offensive Dragon Dance Dragonite (4 SpD): (74.3 - 87.3%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    No Stealth Rock? Hydro Pump: 120-141 (37.15 - 43.65%) [Multiscale] = guaranteed 2HKO.
    252 HP? Hydro Pump: 120-141 (31.08 - 36.52%) [Multiscale] = guaranteed 3HKO, possible 2HKO (not a huge chance, cbf to do the exact percentage).

    Dragonite cannot switch into Keldeo AND set up without being severely crippled before it tries to sweep.

    Oh, and for shits and giggles, against 4 HP Breloom: Hydro Pump: 363-427 (138.54 - 162.97%)
  25. lostaurora

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    I feel that Hidden Power Bug is a viable option on the three attacks + CM set for the pony, if you want to be able to take a mix of the threats that Ice/Ghost allows you to. Although it's generally not as good as Ice, you can still hit Lati@s, Starmie, Slowbro, and the odd Shaymin/Serperior hard. Most notably, it allows Keldeo to have a good chance to OHKO Celebi after one CM, which is primarily why I've used it in the past. However, it does mean that you lose out against the Dragons, Amoonguss, Venusaur, Jellicent, and Virizion (although Keldeo doesn't like taking on the latter few in any case.)

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