1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

DPP OU Kevin Garrett Stall

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by Kevin Garrett, Sep 13, 2010.

  1. Kevin Garrett

    Kevin Garrett is a competitor
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 12 Championis a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2008
    Messages:
    3,292
    Kevin Garrett Stall

    [​IMG]

    Written by Kevin Garrett. Art by Cartoons!.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Introduction:

    As you know, I have been a defensive minded player for a long time and realized I have not posted a stall team yet. A lot of stall teams look similar. This has probably been used by other people, including people I have forwarded this team to. The main reason why I am posting this RMT is to share my battling philosophy with the community. I have undoubtedly spent the most amount of time using this and tweaking it than anyone else over the years. Don't think because I put my name in the title means I came up with this combination first because I don't know the answer to that question. This is a showcase for how to form and play stall, though suggestions are welcomed since stall is constantly a work in progress. There is always a different trend in the metagame that demands slight alterations in the team. I will be giving a full analysis of the team because I want anyone to be able to succeed with it. You don't have to read it all if you find it tiring, but I didn't want to spare any details.

    For battling strategy, when I play a game of Pokémon I like to have the advantage. A lot of times you hear players talking about needing better prediction. My style in DPP does not demand prediction. If I execute properly I will have the advantage. Having a poor team matchup will result in me having to execute at a higher level. To look at it another way, if you need to predict every move then you don't have the advantage. You are just guessing. By executing at a high level you can know what you are doing because it is less reliant on what move your opponent makes. Then it comes down to moving according to best move your opponent can possibly make. If they move that way, you will maintain the advantage. If they do something else, it is not the best move they could have made anyway and doesn't change the tide of the battle.

    I will present you with a successful formula for making stall. In Battling 101, I give users a formula for making teams that breaks it down into Pokemon #1-2, #3-5, and #6. The same idea holds true to form for stall, but the roles are slightly different. Pokemon #1 should be a Pokemon that can lay down Stealth Rock and/or Spikes. You want to keep the opponent off balance from the first turn and that is the best way to do it. Pokemon #2 should be your Spin blocker in order to fulfill functional synergy between the two in your lineup. Pokemon #3-5 is the core of your synergy and more importantly for stall, the backbone of your team. Within this part of the team, you should have another Pokemon to lay entry hazards, depending upon what you had on your lead, a cleric for keeping the team healthy and free of status, and at least one phazer. I prefer having two to minimize the amount of time the opponent can set up. Pokemon #6 is a Pokemon that fills the needs of whatever your team struggles against. This is the piece that changes most drastically between stall teams.

    The basic concept of this team is to lay down entry hazards while I deal with the opponent's threats. The reasons why I chose each Pokémon to fill a certain role will be explained in the Closer Look section. Especially in the case of Pokemon #6, I will explain the various changes that have been made throughout my use of this team. I will also show the different EV spreads and move sets I have used for each Pokemon. This team has been very successful for me. I used quite a few versions of this team in Smogon Frontier, where I had an all-time high 90 wins out of 127 games as a Frontier Brain in the last season alone. It also did well on ladder by climbing to #1 on Smogon University's leaderboard with a CRE over 1650. It would have been much higher if my deviation and volatility weren't so low. Disregarding the peak numbers, I have been a fixture in the top 5 of the leaderboard for the last two years and this team has been a major part of my continued success in DPP. Since BW is right around the corner, I figured this would be the perfect time to share my thoughts on this with the community. Enough of the intro, though. Here is the team!

    Closer Look:

    [​IMG]
    Hippowdon @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Careful nature (+SpD, -SpA)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Roar
    - Slack Off

    Hippowdon is a good lead for this team to start the game with because it handles all the common leads in conjunction with the rest of the team. Stealth Rock is the most limiting of the entry hazards because it instantly makes players avoid going to Pokémon with a Rock-type weakness early. If they do decide to go to one early, it will have to contend with a stall team at full health. That is far from ideal for sweeping. I generally switch out against leads like Azelf and Aerodactyl since they usually use Taunt on the first move. In certain situations I will stay in since it is not a guarantee they will use it. It depends upon the person I am playing.

    For Azelf, Tyranitar is the Pokémon of choice to switch in because Stealth Rock versions will be forced into a corner by the threat of being out sped and the loss of their Focus Sash from Sandstream. I move a similar way for both Aerodactyl and Machamp. The first move I make is a switch to Gyarados. For Aerodactyl, I will use Waterfall as they either use Stealth Rock or a damaging Rock-type move. On the next turn I will go to Forretress for Rapid Spin, in which they will be killed on the same turn if they stay in. For Machamp, I go back to Hippowdon for what is usually Stone Edge since Dynamicpunch only gets 8 PP and they won't waste them so hastily after Gyarados comes in to take one for less than a fifth of its health. After which, I proceed to Stealth Rock.

    I like Hippowdon as opposed to Swampert to use Stealth Rock because of Slack Off and bulk. I don't mind losing the ability to hit Flying-types and Levitators to be able to recover the whole game. I am able to depend on it to take more hits than just about anything else on this team. What this set lacks in attacking ability it makes up for in support. Hippowdon is important to have down the stretch of games against offensive teams because it can PP stall weak sweepers to the point where they Struggle and take hits to force switches that will give me the edge in the final moves. Having an extra Sandstream user is also helpful in eliminating Hail teams as well.

    Most of the time I used this team I used an EV spread of 252 HP / 146 Def / 108 SpD / 4 Spe with an Impish nature (+Def, -SpA). The first thing you probably noticed when you saw this set is that I am running a lot of Special Defense. I recently switched to it to mess around with lead Heatran, which have increasing begun to hold Choice Specs and Life Orb. The team has been more successful with it overall. The more I used it, the more useful I found it to be. Pain Split Gengar doesn't come close to beating this, which lessens the amount of critical switching I need to make in order to defeat them. Switching into Jirachi is also a lot easier since boosted Psychic attacks do such a small amount. LO Dragonite is now a lot easier to handle as well since it can't 2HKO it at full health without Outrage.

    The final point I will make is that this team has a good amount of Defense and Hippowdon's value is still big enough to fend of Dragon Dance Tyranitar as long as it isn't holding Life Orb. Life Orb is easily beaten down by repeated Intimidates on turns it boosts in conjunction with entry hazards, especially with Toxic Spikes out. I am not losing much coverage on physical Dragonite because my normal protocol for defeating it involves a combination of Gyarados, Forretress, and Blissey. The details of which will be explained later. Choice Band Dragonite will manage a 2HKO on Hippowdon, even if it has more Defense EVs, so it's not like I'm losing an option to switch in on it. And finally, Breloom is undoubtedly a common physical attacker in the metagame right now. I rarely used Hippowdon on Breloom due to the amount of damage Seed Bomb would do. In general, Hippowdon sees more opportunities using this spread than it would otherwise.

    [​IMG]
    Rotom-H @ Leftovers
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
    Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Shadow Ball
    - Thunderbolt

    These days there isn't much of a question who your Spin blocker should be on a defensive team. Rotom-H is perfect for the role because it is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes and has a movepool that is threatening to a lot of the Rapid Spinners out there. I prefer Shadow Ball over Will-O-Wisp for several reasons. It makes a great switch into other Rotom-A with Will-O-Wisp since they can't do anything to touch you. It is helpful against opposing Stall teams because for most of the game Rotom-A is one of, if not, the most important member of the team. Another reason is because it allows Toxic Spikes to take effect on everything that sensitive to it. The luxury of running two STAB attacks on Rotom-H is that when you use Sleep Talk there is not as much risk involved seeing as though you are more likely than not to use one of them.

    Rotom-H is usually my first option against Breloom. I prefer to have Gyarados kept awake for a few reasons. One of those reasons being that it can Roar Breloom out right after it uses Substitute, which is the best way to damage incompetent Breloom users. Another reason is because Gyarados is my first option to go to for a slew of threats and if I am unable to clear Stealth Rock from the field, I have more control over what I can cover when Gyarados is awake or only stuck with a two turn sleep from Rest. Once again, the concept of having dual STAB helps having Rotom-H asleep for more turns because it generally isn't crucial if I get either move. In contrast to Gyarados, who sometimes desperately needs to pull off a Roar. I can't let it roll on a 1/3 chance.

    Rotom-H is my first or second option for switching into Gyarados. The reason why I say second is because when my opponent doesn't have Stealth Rock up against me and I see their Gyarados isn't holding Leftovers, I will typically go to my own Gyarados and switch around with Forretress to build up Spikes or Toxic Spikes while their health whittles away. If anything else, it eliminates the possibility of boosted Gyarados 2HKOing Rotom-H with Waterfall after a first turn flinch. I won't go into any more detail over it because Rotom-H is as close to a sure thing of a Gyarados counters as you can get on this team. Just like with Gyarados, Rotom-H is also an optional second option for switching into Scizor. Gyarados is the best if there is no Stealth Rock since it can get off an Intimidate, which comes in handy if they are a Swords Dance set. When Stealth Rock is up and I am holding out on switching Gyarados in, I will go to either Rotom-H or Forretress to take a hit.

    The biggest thing Rotom-H does for this team is pose a major threat to opposing Skarmory. A lot of times in stall vs. stall matchups, Rotom-H is crucial for down the stretch. When I keep it healthy and force it on my opponent late game, there is no way they can win. And there have been times I have had it taken out from a critical hit or flinch and I found I really wanted it back late game. That's not to say this team can't beat Skarmory with Rotom-H, it just takes a lot more effort on my part and it results in a longer game. It comes down to keep entry hazards off my side of the field and having it use up all its Roosts while not allowing it to set up anymore Spikes. For other defensive Pokemon it can handle, if Rotom-H is Rested and I still have Forretress around, Taunt Toxic Gliscor isn't a problem at all. And yet another usefulness of Shadow Ball is being able to threaten defensive Celebi.

    In more risky business, sometimes when there is a skilled player using a strong offensive team, I will need to use Rotom-H to handle some threats in unconventional ways. The most notable is that if I have shown that I have Scarf Tyranitar and they have shown they have Pain Split Gengar, I will Shadow Ball on the first turn because they don't want to be caught attacking for little damage. Following that, I will switch out to Tyranitar. The temptation for them to use Shadow Ball at this point is great. If they should Substitute again, it's just a matter of biding more time with Hippowdon or Blissey and having it Pain Split the weakest Pokemon at the time. I don't understand how people say Pain Split Gengar beats Blissey because not everyone plays linearly. If you never switch it will, but it's very clear what Gengar needs to do and to move accordingly.

    [​IMG]
    Forretress @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
    Careful nature (+SpD, -SpA)
    - Spikes
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Payback

    Forretress is a vital member of the team because it is the main source of entry hazards. The reason why I use Forretress over Skarmory in this team is because it has two things Skarmory doesn't have: Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin. The team functions worse without Forretress around. It does a little bit of everything between setting up Spikes, taking a resisted attack, or keeping my side of the field clear with Rapid Spin. Payback is obviously there for Rotom-A, but I don't tend to overuse it. I only use it in certain situations because it's not like this team can't beat Rotom-A and in the short and long term I will benefit more from an extra layer or squeaking out a Rapid Spin when they expect me to predict a Rotom-A switch. Sometimes I will even stay in on Rotom-A if they show Leftovers because they will likely just Thunderbolt or Will-o-Wisp and I can get an extra layer in for free and only take a minimal amount of damage. Blissey can take care of the burn with Aromatherapy.

    One of my favorite ways to use Forretress is against Taunt Toxic Gliscor. They always think they have this team beat until I start switching around and wasting their PP. The ideal combination against Gliscor is Gyarados and Forretress since Gyarados gets Intimidate on it to drop its Attack to the point where it will run out of Earthquake PP before Forretress is anywhere near weak. Since Gliscor has to stay in to Taunt Forretress, getting off a Rapid Spin is easy. The reason why they stay in is because you can potentially get one or more layers set up for free if they don't. Worst case scenario is that I don't have anything Rested to switch around with against Gliscor. In that case I use a larger combination of Pokemon, usually including Hippowdon, Rotom-H, and Blissey. Forretress is always the centerpiece to this strategy because it requires Gliscor to use Earthquake eventually.

    I like to run max Special Defense on Forretress because it gets so much more out of it than if I had a bunch of Defense EVs. Just like Hippowdon, Forretress is naturally a defensive wall even without much additional support. The Steel-typing makes it even better at this than Hippowdon. The things I gain out of having max Special Defense are more opportunities to use Spikes or Rapid Spin. A standard defensive Vaporeon becomes bait for Forretress to come in and do whatever it wants. It also lives most Hidden Power Fire attacks from things like Shaymin, Celebi, and Roserade. Magnezone is obviously a problem, but if they are Substitute with only Thunderbolt, I usually end up getting the advantage out of the situation because I get to set up multiple layers. You might ask why I would stay in on those. I would if I critically need one more layer of something or need to Rapid Spin. Other benefits are being able to switch into Choice Specs Jolteon for anything but Thunderbolt and setting up whatever I need.

    In terms of Defense, Forretress is no pushover. My protocol for handling Kingdra is by going to Gyarados for the initial Intimidate drop and then switching out to Forretress to take the Outrage. Sometimes they will Dragon Dance again if they don't think I will Roar, but I'm still not in a bad position against a +1 Kingdra with Forretress. Depending upon the circumstances of the game, I can do a number of things. Usually I just go back and forth between it and Gyarados until its health is low enough to finish it off or for them to Rest. If they have Leftovers, I can't entirely depend on Forretress unless Toxic Spikes are out since Payback doesn't do a lot of damage. Forretress is also my first option for switch to against Choice Band Dragonite since everything else would be taken out in two hits by Outrage.

    You can't measure Forretress' achievements in this team by how many kill it gets or how many things it walls. Forretress basically assists on every kill this team gets because the Spikes and Toxic Spikes are invaluable. That's its primary function. I like to lay down Spikes first because they are generally more useful. There are only a few things that require you to lay Toxic Spikes first: against Rain Dance teams or when the opponent has Shaymin or Blissey. The defensive attributes it has are only a bonus to what it does for team support. Forretress is a very important piece to keep healthy in a game against another stall team. You can't win unless they are taking more damage than you. That's why when you use this you need to make sure you are bringing it in at the right time and doing the best thing in the long term. It may look good to Rapid Spin a lot because you can crush an opposing team if you have entry hazards and they don't, but you don't want to end up having less or none in the long run. It's not Forretress' life that is crucial to your success against other stall teams, but it's what it accomplishes and leaves the rest of your team with to fight.

    [​IMG]
    Blissey @ Leftovers
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
    Calm nature (+SpD, -Atk)
    - Seismic Toss
    - Softboiled
    - Aromatherapy
    - Toxic

    When you are looking for a cleric on your stall team, it's hard to look past Blissey. Its bulk is incredible to put it simply. You don't have to concern yourself over special attacking threats. The only things Blissey can't defeat on its own are ones that have recovery like Suicune and Jirachi, which they don't all the time. The only one I have to worry about getting too many boosts in is Jirachi because if it becomes too powerful I have no way of phazing it. Gyarados can always switch into Suicune and pull of a Roar if it only has Surf or is asleep. That is why I usually leave Calm Mind Jirachi for Hippowdon because it can finish it off easy enough if it hasn't been able to set up. The only other special sweeper Blissey can't beat on its own is Pain Split Gengar seeing as though I only have Seismic Toss and Toxic.

    There is one Pokemon in particular that you never need to worry about as long you maintain the entry hazards on your side of the field and make sure you keep Blissey alive. That Pokemon is Empoleon. Even with Torrent and Petaya Berry, Empoleon can't 2HKO Blissey with Hydro Pump. I do like to keep Blissey healthy against Empoleon users because there have been a few rare occurrences of critical hits leading to a 2HKO. As long as you have at least three quarters of your health, Blissey is in fine shape. Empoleon is an important threat for stall to cover because it is one of those threats that can slip your mind, but if you aren't prepared for it, it can annihilate you. As you will read later in the Past Members section, there was a time I used Shaymin over Blissey and Empoleon was one of things that made me face palm when it would get set up.

    One thing you might notice about this Blissey moveset is that I use Softboiled and Aromatherapy instead of Wish and Protect. This is just my personal preference. Wish may work better with Forretress and setting up Spikes, but I find so much use for Aromatherapy that I stick with it. If I didn't use it as much, I would likely switch because Wish and Protect can stall out Gengar on its own. However, by having Aromatherapy, it helps Forretress set up because it can take a Will-o-Wisp and I will get a free layer up for just 12% damage. It also supports Tyranitar if there should be some kind of status inflicted on it. If Blissey had Wish and Protect, it would require me to be a lot more conservative when it comes to letting my team switch into Toxic Spikes and other things. As it stands now, I can switch in whatever I want, use Rapid Spin, and heal the status of the team.

    Blissey's major defensive assignment, besides those already mentioned, is to deal with pesky Grass-types like Shaymin and Celebi. They irritate the rest of the team, especially Shaymin since I have nothing that is super effective against it. My main defense against them is poison, whether it be from Toxic or Toxic Spikes. I prefer to have it come from Toxic Spikes because it puts them on a timer right away and doesn't require any additional moves from me, which they can use to get healthy with Leech Seed. I could go on and on about how Blissey stop every individual special sweeper, but I'll save the rest of them for the threat list. What I will say in closing this thought is that I like to go to Blissey against defensive Rotom-A and Heatran since neither of them threatens Blissey's life. I specifically mention those two because their other sets can ruin Blissey if misplayed.

    Blissey's defensive merit goes beyond that of the special spectrum, though. It can take on Choice Scarf Flygon like a champ as long as it doesn't switch into an attack. It can successfully recover against Earthquake or Outrage, forcing a switch. Toxic is one of my favorite moves to use with Blissey because it can cripple opposing Dragon Dance Dragonite. Make sure its Attack isn't boosted when you do this. That won't work out for obvious reasons. Other things I like to get Toxic on that I haven't mentioned are Swampert and Hippowdon. Blissey can take both of their Earthquakes like it's nothing. As I have already mentioned, some lesser experienced players switch their Breloom into Blissey on a Seismic Toss and get 2HKO'd while only doing about 50% damage with one Seed Bomb.

    [​IMG]
    Gyarados @ Leftovers
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
    Impish nature (+Def, -SpA)
    - Waterfall
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Roar

    Gyarados is arguably the most valuable player on this team. It handles a bulk of the defensive responsibility. Intimidate is one of the best abilities in the game. Couple that with Gyarados' excellent defensive potential and you have a real menace on your hands. Gyarados is my best answer to most of the heavy sweepers in the OU metagame. Swords Dance Lucario with Life Orb falls short of dealing 40% damage to Gyarados at +1 Attack. I only see Stone Edge on variants with four attacks so that is never a concern for me. Gyarados is also my first option to go to for Infernape. Depending upon its moves, my next course of action can vary. For Swords Dance sets, I will switch to Hippowdon since Stone Edge is the obvious move on their part. Depending upon my health, I do different things against Nasty Plot sets. If I am below 75%, I have to consider going to Blissey and scouting for Close Combat. If they do have Close Combat, then they most likely lack Vacuum Wave, which means Tyranitar can finish it off. For mix sets, I stay in to Waterfall.

    I also like to go to Gyarados against Dragon Dancers. The first one I will mention is Dragonite. Depending upon the item, I handle it different ways. If it has Lum Berry, which I assume it has if it doesn't show Leftovers or Life Orb, then I either try to trap it into Outraging Forretress or Roar it away. If it is a Life Orb set, I will not just settle for a Roar. If Dragonite has Leftovers and Roost, then I will usually limit its damage through the game and get some Toxic on it with Blissey at the end of the game. Opposing Gyarados is a slightly different story because I only go to my own Gyarados if they show no Leftovers, as I already stated in the summary for Rotom-H. Kingdra I will only go to if Gyarados is in good enough shape to drop an Intimidate on it since Forretress can do a pretty good job handling them. Tyranitar is the only one I am leery about sending Gyarados into since it can do some significant damage if I don't do it right. I only go to Gyarados if the attack they would use on the Pokemon I have out would be resisted by Gyarados and then I would switch to Hippowdon immediately.

    The reason why I say Gyarados is so valuable is not only because of its ability to handle a majority of offensive threats, but because of its function on the team. It is the fastest user of Roar on this team. There are obviously faster in the game, but for the purpose of creating a great niche, Gyarados works like a charm. Its defensive attributes compliment those of Hippowdon nicely. The things they can use Roar on are typically different, although there is an overlap of what they cover. Just to point out another great aspect of this set, when Gyarados is asleep and selects Roar with Sleep Talk, it takes place before the opponent's move if Gyarados outspeeds. This has come in handy countless times. Just like with Rotom-H, I feel confident in Sleep Talk selecting a move I need because Roar is usually just as good as, if not better than, Waterfall.

    Another one of the significant threats Gyarados can take on is Breloom. I usually like to let Rotom-H take the Spore so Gyarados can come in before the Substitute to get Intimidate on Breloom and Roar it out before it can recover too much of the damage it took from forming the Substitute with Poison Heal. There are circumstances that I like to have Gyarados asleep for it, though. The way I decide it is by what I can see of the opponent's team at the time. If I need to be using Gyarados a lot in that game, I will let them put Rotom-H asleep. If the situation somehow changes, I can use Aromatherapy with Blissey and alter my strategy. The same thing goes for if I see Rotom-H would be better suited to take on Breloom with its moveset. By this I mean if Breloom has Facade or Stone Edge for some reason, then I would switch things up as I already stated.

    When I see a lead Machamp, the first thing I do is switch to Gyarados. They always use Dynamicpunch or Substitute, normally the former. From there I go back to Hippowdon to Stealth Rock. I also use Gyarados as part of the protocol for beating Taunt Toxic Gliscor as I already stated in the Forretress summary. I use it whether it's asleep or not because Intimidate is invaluable for stalling out Gliscor's Earthquake PP. Besides being able to Rest at a later time, I could also squeeze in Aromatherapy with Blissey if it should become poisoned. Gyarados is one of my first options for Jirachi because most of them pack physical moves. If they Calm Mind, then I will go right to Hippowdon. Finally, I like to switch Gyarados into Heatran because it is a more dynamic answer than Blissey. Blissey has to worry about Explosion, but Gyarados doesn't have to worry about dying to it thanks to Intimidate and all its Defense EVs.

    [​IMG]
    Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Sand Stream
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly nature (+Spe, -SpA)
    - Crunch
    - Stone Edge
    - Pursuit
    - Superpower

    Tyranitar acts as the failsafe to the rest of the team. In some instances, where taking another hit could upset the defensive balance of the team, so Tyranitar can step in and either scare or finish off a threat. A good example to illustrate this point is Mix Dragonite. If I had something slower then I would have to do some careful switching, but with Tyranitar I can just proceed to Stone Edge, Crunch, or Pursuit, depending upon the situation. The same thing applies to Choice Band Dragonite, which can still hit like a truck even when the attack is resisted. The only form of Dragonite Tyranitar can't take on is Dragon Dance if Dragonite already has a boost. I should note that Tyranitar can finish off Dragonite with Dragon Dance, Roost, Outrage, and Fire Blast as long as I get an Intimidate on it.

    Aside from late game sweeping, Tyranitar plays a crucial role in the middle of a game with its typing and Speed. If someone has a Life Orb Heatran and I am expecting them to use Fire Blast or Overheat, then Tyranitar is a really good switch in this position. Between entry hazards and Life Orb, Heatran gets to within range where I can consider using Stone Edge, which would completely ruin a switch out to Gyarados, Dragonite, Gengar, Rotom-A, etc. Additionally, I don't have to worry about an Explosion since I outspeed it. If I were to go with Blissey or Gyarados in this situation, I would be playing a risky game of determining the amount of time I can stay in. It greatly depends on the Pokemon the opponent has already seen and what they need to get rid of in order to win. With Tyranitar, that is one position I can avoid.

    The most notable thing Choice Scarf Tyranitar does in the current metagame is check and revenge kill Lucario. Obviously, some people use Bullet Punch knowing this, but the majority of players still use Extremespeed. There is much less merit using Bullet Punch on Swords Dance Lucario when you consider the amount of things you can take out with Extremespeed. Aside from Bullet Punch, Tyranitar completely owns Lucario as long as it has a decent amount of health remaining. Another Fighting-type threat I use Tyranitar to revenge kill is Infernape. However, unlike Lucario, I am less comfortable sending Tyranitar in against Infernape since moves like Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave are way more common. As I already stated, I use Gyarados are my primary option. Once I have seen some of its moves I can get a good feel for whether or not it has priority.

    I have yet to mention my favorite part of Tyranitar on this team, though. The best thing it does is eliminate opposing Rotom-A. This isn't always done by blindly sending it in the first time I see it. That will lead to you taking a lot of burns from Will-o-Wisp. The first thing I look for against a Rotom-A is what its item is. Sandstorm is extremely valuable in this department. If I see it doesn't have Leftovers, then Tyranitar is my first option. It is possible it could have Will-o-Wisp; I have seen it before. More often than, not they either attack or use Trick, leading to their instant removal by Pursuit. The other thought that contributes to the decision is what form it is. If it is Rotom-W, I may be more leery to send it in on the first sight of it. That would depend on the game's circumstances. As for Rest Talk Rotom-A, what I like to do is uncover its moveset. If it doesn't have Shadow Ball, I can just leave it to Rotom-H. Otherwise, what I will do is get some damage on it either by attacking or getting some Toxic on it with Blissey. Once it's either nearing a Rest or asleep from it, I will spring Tyranitar on it. Keep in mind you have Aromatherapy on Blissey, so switching into a burn is not the end of the world. It's just ideal to back it into a corner and trap it.

    There are many things Tyranitar can snipe when they are not entirely healthy. I will go over them all later. For this last part, I will touch on the significance of having two Sand Streamers on a team. First of all, Hippowdon and Tyranitar make great partners against opposing Azelf leads. As I have already said, most of them will run Taunt with Stealth Rock. Focus Sash Azelf are in for a lot of trouble with this combination. Gengar is another important Pokemon Tyranitar can pick off with some smart switching. As I have said before, I can bait it to Shadow Ball with Rotom-H or switch in when it has to use Pain Split to force the issue. Another thing to consider is the amount of success generated by these two against opposing weather teams. Having a backup Sand Streamer is useful beyond words. It makes it virtually impossible for the standard Rain Dance team to win, which can sometimes give stall teams difficulty. Hail and Sun are not seen as much as Rain, but the same idea applies to them as well. It is hard to maintain any form of whether against this team and attempting to set it up usually results in me being able to set up more entry hazards.

    Past Members:

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    I have used Celebi and Shaymin in the 6th slot of this team. Celebi was the original member before I switched to Tyranitar. I used two different movesets with it: Perish Song and Calm Mind. Celebi was a Bold nature (+Def, -Atk) with an EV spread of 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD. On the Calm Mind set I used Energy Ball and Thunder Wave. Shaymin is something I have experimented with more recently. I used it in place of Blissey and Tyranitar, preferring the latter version. For Shaymin, I ran a Timid nature (+Spe, -Atk) with an EV spread of 252 HP / 36 SpA / 220 Spe. The move set was Seed Flare, Earth Power, Leech Seed, and Rest. This team was used for a portion of Smogon Frontier. The idea behind it was that there were a lot of people running more Grass-types and Gliscor so I figured I would reinforce my defense against those. It was also a nice surprise for all the people running Earthworm's stall team with Heatran. Ultimately, Tyranitar proved to be the most valuable 6th member, but both of these Pokemon served their purpose at the time.

    Conclusion:

    As I stated before, the main reason why I am posting this now is to showcase my favorite team of DPP. I have used more successful teams in the short term with peak numbers, but nothing has been as consistent over a long period of time. I get people asking if I'm still using the same team as I was when they saw me playing a year ago. I tend to stick with success teams for as long as they are good and I am using this all the way to the end of the generation. That says the most about this team. I encourage everyone give stall a chance because it's a wonderful playstyle. Even though this team is almost entirely defensive, you can apply the team building structure I explained in the Intro and build a more balanced version of stall if that suits your interests. I would just like to say thank you to a few people here. I could give a shout out to all my friends, but I will just keep them relevant to the team at hand. Mainly I would like to thank august because we always spent a good amount of time chatting about strategies and team structure. I would also like to thank imperfectluck because watching him play and subsequent practice helped mold me into a proficient stall user. Finally, I would like to thank Pride and twash for helping me proofread this team.

    Defensive Threats:

    Blissey: Opposing Blissey are handled by a combination of getting my entry hazards out and pressuring it. I pressure it mainly with Gyarados since it can do a good amount of damage with Waterfall to whittle away PP for their recovery move or Roar it out. I can use Tyranitar to take it out, but I will only do that when I know it won't end up leaving me in a disadvantage to something they could switch to. In other words, I would go to Tyranitar if they have a full team left unless it was severely weakened and it would either die to my attack or entry hazards the next time it would come in. I also like to use my Rotom-H against them because it can't touch me. Even though I can't touch it, they can't Wish to anything that they need to and I will win the PP battle. All of these options are situational, though.

    Bronzong: Bronzong are set up bait for Forretress to put it simply. Unless they are the lead, I will always go to Forretress and get in some entry hazards or Rapid Spin. Bronzong can't touch this team. The best thing it does is not die against me. Unless they willingly use Explosion or switch it into something that will kill it, this thing will require me to PP stall it. I obviously don't have difficulty against it.

    Celebi: As you will read later, I handle Celeb the same way I do Shaymin. Toxic Spikes is the bane of this Pokemon since it is on a timer as soon as it comes in. With just one layer out, it is susceptible losing against Rotom-H with Shadow Ball or Tyranitar with Crunch. Blissey can stall out any version without Leech Seed. If it has Leech Seed I either need to go to another Pokemon so it doesn't recover so much HP every turn or get two layers of Toxic Spikes up so it really has to switch out. These are never really a problem.

    Cresselia: I don't see these very much, but I like when I do see them. It's almost always set up bait for Forretress to lay entry hazards and Rapid Spin. Aside from the standard Thunder Wave Ice Beam sets, I see a few that set up Rain Dance and screens. Both of those are completely useless against this team. I have two Sand Streamers so the Rain is easy to get rid of and my strategy for beating offense is not to attack them. Setting up screens only allows me to set up more with Forretress to make my Roars with Gyarados and Hippowdon more successful. Rotom-H and Tyranitar can finish off Cresselia if it's weakened, but killing them is never really a problem.

    Donphan: Donphan is probably my favorite Rapid Spinner to see from my opponent. It does nothing to Rotom-H and its Toxic Spike weak to boot. There isn't much it can do against this team. Gyarados can finish it off if its weak enough for Waterfall to kill. Otherwise, I will always go to Rotom-H for safe measure. Shadow Ball does a good amount of damage to be able to take it out in a few attacks.

    Dusknoir: Dusknoir isn't a problem to face. It is weak to Toxic Spikes and every one of these things I see has Pain Split. Normally, I try to work its health down and then spring either Rotom-H or Tyranitar on it. Not many people use Dusknoir so there isn't much to say. It is not threatening at all. I don't always go for the kill the first time I see it. Sometimes it's easier to phaze it with Hippowdon or Gyarados and then when it comes in later it is a sitting duck.

    Forretress: Forretress are fun to play against because they make you think about every move of the game: current and future. Each game demands a different action so I won't go into every protocol I use. I will say that I like to go to my own Forretress and either use Spikes, Rapid Spin, or Payback. It all depends on the condition in the particular game. I am usually not paranoid about keeping my side of the field free from Spikes as much as I am with Stealth Rock. Even then in a stall vs. stall match, I may not mind having them up longer if that means they will have to deal with more layers them self. The way I handle Forretress is by trapping it in a web. Make it have too many hazards around it to keep coming in and not overplay my own Rotom-H to leave me vulnerable to their will the whole match. I will get it in when it needs to be there and can make the biggest impact in my favor. Aside from Rotom-H, all other Pokemon on this team can finish off a weakened Forretress besides my own Forretress.

    Gliscor: I love playing against Gliscor. Everything always thinks I am up the creek without a paddle against these until they figure out what I do against it. Taunt Toxic Gliscor rarely defeats this team even though people think they bust stall. They do more damage to semi-stall teams than full stall. As soon as I see a Taunt Gliscor I will get either Rotom-H or Gyarados asleep with Rest whenever possible. I prefer Gyarados. Then what I will do is switch between Forretress and Gyarados until it has no PP left. I don't have to worry about them having Stealth Rock up because I am able to Rapid Spin when they Taunt my Forretress. The reason why Gyarados is better than Rotom-H is because Gyarados has Intimidate, which makes Earthquake entirely useless against Forretress. If I have Rotom-H asleep, it requires a few additional teammates to take hits from Earthquake to ensure that Forretress won't die from it before they run out of PP. Hippowdon is ideal for that position.

    Gyarados: Gyarados is one of the best phazers for stall teams. Sometimes stall vs. stall matches can come down to who gets better execution with their Gyarados to maximize the effectiveness of their entry hazards. This may even be a speed tie. I have Rotom-H to scare off opposing defensive Gyarados with Thunderbolt. Tyranitar can also threaten it if it is in a weakened state or is asleep with Stone Edge. However, since defensive Gyarados is mainly only used on stall teams, this doesn't always lead to the best outcome. I prefer to go for the best long term way to defeat it rather than trying to take it out early. If you jump on it too early you could have setbacks later on. It's not always the one who takes an early lead in a stall vs. stall game who ends up winning.

    Hippowdon: Opposing Hippowdon are not a problem at all. I can get Toxic on it with either Blissey or Toxic Spikes and it can't do much to my team. Hippowdon's best use is against offensive threats thanks to its great bulk. Against a stall team that is planned to get residual damage on you, it is not a big problem. It can be used to stall PP and get some crucial Roars in, but that's the worst of it.

    Heatran: Defensive variants of Heatran are usually not a problem on their own. Gyarados and Blissey handle it so well because they don't mind taking Will-o-Wisp or Lava Plume. The only time I struggle against these is when I play against someone of Earthworm's caliber because he gets the most of using its typing to limit the amount of possible times Forretress can be used successfully. Since these things are usually only seen on stall teams, the first two options I mentioned are normally all I use. Tyranitar could be used against it, but then they can go to Rotom-A, Skarmory, or some other thing and take control of the game.

    Jirachi: I hate this thing and not because it beats me on paper. I can handle Jirachi quite well with this team. It is that is promotes an incredible amount of luck. I have a tab of at least 50 games where this thing has beaten me with odds less than 2% to win. It's absolutely crazy. The bottom line is that it really can't do too much to my team. Choice Scarf versions are my favorite to fight against because they are guaranteed to die after so many switches in. Mixed sets are handled well by Rotom-H. Sometimes I will get some Intimidate on them with Gyarados to waste the PP of Iron Head. The only way Iron Head can win if it flinches 90% of the time and gets a few critical hits along the way. Sadly that has happened a lot when I have Gyarados, Rotom-H, and Hippowdon healthy. Finally, Calm Mind variants are handled by Hippowdon as long as they don't have Grass Knot. +1 Grass Knot doesn't OHKO so it isn't a huge setback, but then I have to devise a plan of using Blissey and Tyranitar to take it down.

    Rotom-A: Rotom-A is an interesting Pokemon to face. There are so many things it can do so you really need to know what you are up against. If it doesn't have Leftovers, then the first option is to go to Tyranitar. The only exception to this is if their form is Rotom-W. Then you might want to hang tight with Forretress to see what it does. It is always situational so I can't tell you the formula for success in this one paragraph. My own Rotom-H works well against other versions that don't have Shadow Ball, which is quite a few. Otherwise, some combination of Hippowdon and Blissey will PP stall it and also scout the full set of moves it wields so I don't make a regrettable mistake. I am well set up against them.

    Skarmory: Skarmory is killed solely by Rotom-H on my team. In a stall vs. stall matchup, Rotom-A is a very important piece of the team. It's something you need to play thoughtfully if you want to win. If you are to lose Rotom-H somehow, that doesn't mean you automatically lose. If they no longer have their Spin blocker, then I can use Forretress on it all day to Rapid Spin and have Gyarados get some Intimidate on it to make Brave Bird very weak. That's the beauty of having Tyranitar on this team because that scenario is likely. In that case, then you just have to keep your side of the field clear from entry hazards and force it to use its other moves eventually until it no longer has any PP. If you watch me play, you know I win a lot of games through PP stalling.

    Snorlax: Snorlax is never usually a problem. The most standard set, Curse, can be played around with Gyarados, Forretress, and Hippowdon. The reason why I say Forretress is because it takes little damage from Body Slam or Return and sets up some Spikes. That's where Gyarados and Hippowdon come in. I never let it get too many boosts in and then I send it flying out with Roar. Unlike with Suicune, which I will touch on in the next paragraph, after just one time into entry hazards and this thing is not looking so well against my team. Tyranitar is very threatening with Superpower. Another contrasting quality with Suicune is that if I Roar Snorlax in with Gyarados or Hippowdon, I can attack it for a good amount of damage.

    Suicune: Suicune can be tricky, but I am normally good at playing against these. What I do is make sure I get up a few layers of everything and phaze it around a bit until it's left in a tough situation between having its health weakened and facing Rotom-H without a boost. I always use Blissey early in the game because it doesn't take much damage from it and gets it to Rest if they have it. Once that is done I can get to work with my plan. If worst comes to worst, I can weaken it and have Tyranitar finish it off if it has less than 40% health.

    Swampert: I haven't seen as many Swampert around lately, but most of them are Stealth Rock leads. I see a few Curse sets every now and then, but with the rise in the usage of Celebi and Shaymin, it isn't a consistent strategy. I don't have a problem with them. Forretress can Rapid Spin away the Stealth Rock; Gyarados can get a drop in on it and outspeed it with Roar. Rotom-H does more with Shadow Ball than Swampert does with Ice Beam. Finally, Blissey can get some Toxic on it and stall it out with Softboiled. The only way it will lose is if Earthquakes scores a critical hit.

    Tentacruel: I generally like facing Tentacruel since it is a pastime of stall teams. They really don't work the same way they used to ever since Platinum. Rotom-H leaves it at a disadvantage and Surf doesn't do enough damage to divert your from switching it in, unlike with Starmie. Toxic Spikes don't hurt my team too much, depending upon what the rest of their team is. I get the feeling the biggest thing they want to take out with it is Blissey and I use Aromatherapy so that's a wasted effort if they are looking for a late game sweep with a special sweeper.

    Vaporeon: Vaporeon are usually a joy to play against. I get free set up with Forretress since I don't take much more than 30% per hit. By being able to set up on it, it reduces the reliability of their Wish since it limits the amount of things that can actually receive it. Blissey can get some Toxic on it and it takes nothing in return. If they have Toxic too, it's just a matter of switching out. Rotom-H does a number on Vaporeon with Thunderbolt. Gyarados is also fine to stall out Vaporeon as long as it doesn't have Hidden Power Electric.

    Zapdos: Defensive Zapdos isn't a huge deal for this team. The most annoying thing is Substitute with Toxic, but Rotom-H and Blissey can stall it out easily. Sometimes I will go to Forretress to have them blow a Toxic and I can either get in a free Rapid Spin or layer of entry hazards. Normally I can sneak a Toxic on it with Blissey with careful attention given to when I use Seismic Toss. Finally, since most Toxic Zapdos carry a lot of Special Defense, Tyranitar can usually scare it away or finish it off with Stone Edge.

    Offensive Threats:

    Azelf: For lead Azelf, I normally switch right to Tyranitar. If someone shows Choice Band, I will remember them and alter my strategy to either stay in with Hippowdon or switch to Rotom-H. I have a good sense of what they will do after the first game and every time after that I have the advantage. Most lead Azelf still use the standard Taunt with Stealth Rock sets so Tyranitar works just fine. More and more people have been using Colbur Berry for Tyranitar's Crunch. I can't help but feel partially, if not, significantly responsible for this. After years of using this strategy against every player I see I would hope they would somehow adapt. Azelf are my favorite Stealth Rock users because they are taken out early and Forretress can clear my side of the field early, if it even needs to, and have a game without needing to worry about limiting Gyarados' appearances. All non-lead Azelf are no problem from what I have played against.

    Breloom: Breloom are annoying to face. They are fine on their own. This team has no trouble with Breloom alone. Mixed with some good offensive pieces around it, there can be a problem. But since threat lists and team rating isn't about saying you lose to a, b, and c, or if you lose x, y and z beat you. Basically, Rotom-H and Gyarados manhandle this thing. One of them can take the sleep and the other can precede to dealing damage or phazing it, which will lead to it coming back into Spikes. Tyranitar can revenge kill them after they have come in on Spikes a few times. A lot of people will switch Breloom into Blissey after they already put something to sleep on my team and end up eating way more damage than they anticipated with Seismic Toss. Seed Bomb takes a few hits to kill so sometimes people are success in doing what I want for me.

    Dragonite: Dragonite is a menace in the metagame now that Latias and Salamence are gone. It is strong, but this team is well protected against Dragonite. I used this team back when Latias and Salamence were around so just imagine how well it handles Dragonite. Dragon Dance sets are stalled out with a combination of Gyarados and Forretress. If they have Roost, I am required to get Blissey in when it is at +0 Attack and get some Toxic on it. Hippowdon takes on Mix Dragonite well. The most powerful variant of Dragonite, Choice Band, can cause some problems if I don't have Stealth Rock up against them. Otherwise, it's opportunities are limited and it can't do much damage. Either way, Forretress can take on Outrage. It will do a lot of damage, but between all the residual damage taking place, they don't finish the team by itself. It should be noted that Tyranitar can revenge kill Dragonite as long as it doesn't have too much Speed after Dragon Dancing.

    Dugtrio: Choice Band Dugtrio is the only thing that ever bothers this team since it can 2HKO Blissey. Every other set is pretty much a joke to battle against unless it catches Blissey in a weakened state. Blissey is basically the only thing I have to worry about when thinking about Dugtrio. Any other thing it comes in on will leave me in an advantagous situation by either being able to Roar with Gyarados to spread some damage with entry hazards or set up more entry hazards with Forretress if they came in on Gyarados and tried to Stone Edge. As you know, you can't counter Dugtrio unless you are levitating so there is little point in explaining this further.

    Electivire: These things are always very predicted because most skilled players don't go near Electivire with a steel pole. I don't mind if it gets a speed boost from Rotom-H because my own team, bar Tyranitar, is slower than Electivire on its own. Rotom-H takes nothing from Electivire and the worst case scenerio there is if I have to Rest, which isn't a huge issue. I will frequently switch Gyarados in when Thunderpunch or Thunderbolt isn't a realistic move to use just to stall it out without taking much damage at all. Hippowdon can take Electivire on well and Forretress can come in for anything except Flamethrower. As I already mentioned, Tyranitar can revenge kill it if it hasn't received a Motor Drive boost.

    Flygon: Gyarados, Forretress, Rotom-H, and Hippowdon take care of Flygon. Gyarados takes the least amount of damage from Flygon's common attacks. The only one that does a decent amount of damage after an Intimidate is Stone Edge. Forretress is very good at defeating Flygon. The only bullet to dodge is Fire Blast, but considering that Fire Blast does nothing to the rest of the team, it's a move that is only seen when they need to get rid of Forretress to have a chance at winning. Rotom-H can take on all of Flygon's moves, but when I'm forced to Rest it is a risky situation because they can still use Outrage through confusion. Nevertheless, no Flygon wants to be against a Rotom-H to decide a game. Hippowdon takes on every set Flygon can use, but it can't do anything in return besides let it hit itself in confusion. Finally, Blissey can take hits from Choice Scarf variants as long as it doesn't switch into an Outrage or Earthquake.

    Gallade: Gallade isn't a problem at all. I face these occasionally and unless they get massive luck I am always in better shape than I was before I saw it. It is similar to Heracross in that the Swords Dance set can be powerful, but I don't have to worry about Guts. I usually use a mix of Gyarados, Rotom-H, Forretress, and Hippowdon. There isn't much to say about it.

    Gengar: What's there to talk about besides Substitute with Pain Split? That is basically the only Gengar you will see nowadays and the only one you should care about because the other versions only sting. Blissey can stall it out for a while, as well as Hippowdon. It can't take out either one so it is never really a problem. The worst thing it does is weaken a few things on my team. If the player is smart enough to save it for late game, I usually end up sacrificing a Pokemon that that it can't Pain Split and goes down with it. Since I know what my opponent has at such a late stage in the game, this is a strategic maneuver. Overall, these things are really cool, but it doesn't get the job done on its own.

    Gyarados: I like to go to one of two things against Gyarados, either go Rotom-H or my own Gyarados. If I see they have no Leftovers, I will try going to my Gyarados and stall it out between Sandstorm and Life Orb recoil while getting some Spikes set up and getting Intimidate on it. That also reduces the likelihood of losing Rotom-H to a flinch. Rotom-H is the way to go against Leftovers variants because they often times have Taunt, which gives Rotom-H a free switch without taking damage. If not, they can't 2HKO with Waterfall when Rotom-H is near full health so even a flinch doesn't leave me in shambles.

    Heatran: I have three good options to go to against Heatran: Blissey, Gyarados, and Tyranitar. I have altered my Hippowdon to deal with all lead variants of Heatran. It may not seem ideal to have Hippowdon take a chunk of damage from Heatran to kill it, but my switching options are sometime limited. If I see Leftovers on Heatran, I will stick with either Blissey or Gyarados. Normally, I will choose Gyarados in this scenario because there are fewer things that can easily switch in. The only time I would avoid going to Gyarados is if they can 2HKO with Fire Blast on the switch or have a Breloom or something waiting in reserves. I have seen an increase in Hidden Power Electric Heatran, so Blissey is looking like a better option every time I see one. Tyranitar only takes a good amount of damage if they use Earth Power or Hidden Power Grass, both of which are not usually used because they do nothing to the rest of the team.

    Heracross: I have two good Pokemon for countering Heracross. Both Gyarados and Rotom-H do a wonderful job of coming in on Heracross' STAB attacks. Gyarados has the benefit of taking less from Megahorn and slowing down Swords Dance versions, but Rotom-H takes no damage from Close Combat and it's only weak against Pursuit. Heracross is a less threatening version of Scizor because it has no long term potential for taking out the whole team on its own. Both Hippowdon and Gyarados can Roar it out if need be and entry hazards are not friendly. I don't think I ever see these things with Leftovers so it will always die. The only way it's doing much of anything is if it gets a Guts boost from Toxic Spikes.

    Infernape: My first switch into Infernape is normally Gyarados. The worst thing it can do is Thunderpunch, and after Intimidate that only does about 50%. But if you look at my team, using Thunderpunch on a random hunch won't bring you successful results since it can backfire if it is wrongly predicted. Stone Edge is the most common thing I see Infernape trying to hit Gyarados with. Hippowdon makes an excellent synergy partner against Infernape in this way. It doesn't live very long considering there are entry hazards and Sandstorm mixed in with its recoil from Life Orb of lack of Leftovers. Anything can switch into an attack from Infernape depending upon what the expected move is and Tyranitar can revenge kill it as long as it doesn't have Mach Punch or Vacuum Wave.

    Jolteon: Jolteon does not do well against this team at all. Blissey can't be touched by it and Hippowdon blocks Charge Beam with its Ground-typing. Hippowdon isn't even taken out in two hits from Life Orb Hidden Power Ice or Grass and can either set up Stealth Rock, stall with Slack Off, or finish it off with Earthquake. Forretress makes a good switch into Jolteon from Hippowdon as it will be hit by either a resisted Shadow Ball or Hidden Power Ice or Grass. Then I can proceed to Rapid Spin, set up Spikes, or switch to something that won't take much damage from Thunderbolt.

    Kingdra: My first switch into Kingdra is normally Gyarados. I will sometimes go to Forretress or Rotom-H, depending upon the conditions of the game. Kingdra can't do much with Toxic Spikes down and if it is on a Rain Dance team, I wish it luck going against a team with two Pokemon that have Sand Stream a defensive core like it has. The Dragon Dance with Rest sets are usually the hardest to face, but not in terms of potential. It normally doesn't do much more damage than other Kingdra, but it takes longer to take it out.

    Lucario: Gyarados is always my first options against Lucario. It can potentially be the best sweeper in the game and nothing can really switch in as well as Gyarados. The only thing Lucario can really do is pull off a Stone Edge, but so few players actually use that on their Lucario since it doesn't hit as wide of a variety of threats. Choice Scarf Tyranitar is basically a sure thing for a revenge kill as long as they show Extremespeed. Bullet Punch is still not used very much and I don't really foresee it being more popular than it is because the amount of Choice Scarf Tyranitar around are so much less than in the days Latias was in OU. Finally, Hippowdon, Rotom-H, and Forretress can take hits from Lucario to let Life Orb recoil takes its life.

    Machamp: I have a protocol against Machamp. First I switch to Gyarados to get Intimidate on it. Then I will go to either Hippowdon or Forretress depending what the circumstances of the match are. If it is a lead, I will go back to Hippowdon to get Stealth Rock up. If it is later on I will either go to Forretress to Spike or Rapid Spin or finish it off with Gyarados if it is around 30% health. Sometimes I will do the same thing, but only go to Rotom-H if it is within range for Thunderbolt to strike it down. I usually don't play around too much with getting Rotom-H in on Dynamicpunches because so many players overpredict with Payback. Its incredible how many people do that.

    Magnezone: Depending upon the situation, either Blissey or Hippowdon are my first option. Sometimes Magnezone carry Explosion, even the Substitute variants. Explosion nor Hidden Power Ice or Grass do little to Hippowdon and I can set up Stealth Rock if I haven't already. If they show they have Hidden Power Ice or Grass, I will go to Blissey. Most of the time I see Magnezone is if they come flying in against Forretress. With all of the Special Defense on Forretress, I can usually manage to set up a few layers of Spikes or one layer and Rapid Spin as long as they don't have Hidden Power Fire. Finally, Rotom-H can handle most Magnezone sets well if necessary, but that isn't my option of choice.

    Mamoswine: Gyarados is usually my first line of defense against Mamoswine. It gets Intimidate on it and is immune to Earthquake. After I get an Intimidate on it, Forretress can handle it much better because it takes much less from Earthquake. That will lead to me being able to set up. Rotom-H can also handle Mamoswine well because it is also immune to Earthquake and hits it for quite a bit of damage with Shadow Ball. Finally, Tyranitar can revenge kill Mamoswine with Superpower, Crunch, or Stone Edge, depending upon how much health it has remaining.

    Metagross: I usually Stealth Rock against lead Metagross on turn one. On the second turn I will use Earthquake. The finally, on the third turn I will switch to Rotom-H for the Explosion. Most of the time this is the sequence you will get against lead Metagross. If I see something else happen, I will alter my strategy against that one specific person. I have had people use Explosion turn one because they either scouted my team or simple don't want Stealth Rock up against them. Agiligross are generally easy to handle between Hippowdon, Rotom-H, and Forretress. Of all the things that Stealth Rock, this is one of my favorites to play against since their life doesn't last very long consider the way the majority of players use it.

    Porygon-Z: Porygon-Z alone can't hurt this team badly. The worst thing is can do to Blissey is Trick a Choice item to it. But then Tyranitar outspeeds thanks to Choice Scarf and Rotom-H doesn't take much damage from anything barring Dark Pulse or Shadow Ball. The same applies to Forretress, except it generally takes everything well. Blissey is my first option unless it really looks like Trick set. If Forretress is Tricked, that's not a problem because I usually end up using the same move on consecutive turns.

    Roserade: Against lead Roserade, I like to switch to Blissey to take the Sleep Powder or Leaf Storm. If they should use Toxic Spikes, I can switch to Tyranitar without worrying about being put to sleep. From there, it can either Crunch or Pursuit. For bulkier Spikes variants, I like get its health to below 70% so they are threatened by Tyranitar. Depending upon how much it has already set up, I will either Crunch or Pursuit. The bulky versions can be annoying, but they can be played around and clear its entry hazards with Rapid Spin afterwards.

    Scizor: Scizor is never a very threatening Pokemon against a defensive team. The worst thing that Choice Band Scizor can do is swing momentum in their favor at a crucial point late in the game. Since I normally get at least a few layers of everything up, it doesn't get many appearances in. The hardest versions to fight are usually Leftovers, Roost with Swords Dance sets. That requires me to trap it into an unpleasant situation for them in which they don't have much health left or have to face the full power of my defensive core. Gyarados is my favorite option for taking of Scizor. If Stealth Rock is up and I'm trying to be conservative with Gyarados, Rotom-H is also a great option. If I sense they will U-Turn with Stealth Rock up, I will usually let Forretress take the hit unless I need a certain amount of health to pull off an extra layer of Spikes or Rapid Spin.

    Shaymin: These things are tough to face. The biggest problem I have is against the Leech Seed variants if they have Hidden Power Fire. With the increase in Water, Fire, Grass cores, whenever I see something like Starmie and Heatran together my first instinct is to lay down some Toxic Spikes. That is the bane of Shaymin. It can Rest it off and be fine, but the downtime is murder against a stall team. I can efficiently set up a few layers of Spikes or Roar it out, allowing me to put the pressure back on my opponent. Life Orb versions are simple to play against with Blissey and Forretress.

    Starmie: Starmie is an interesting Pokemon to face since you are never quite sure if it will be a fully offensive version or one with Rapid Spin. Usually I determine this based on the opponent and the item it shows. Blissey is the perfect switch as long as it isn't a Trick variant. If it is a Rapid Spinner, whether it is Life Orb or Leftovers, I usually show it either Rotom-H or Tyranitar, depending upon how easy it would be to set the entry hazards back up. If it will be easy, I will usually go for the juggernaut and finish it off with Choice Scarf Tyranitar. Otherwise, I will sacrifice Rotom-H to get a revenge kill with Tyranitar. Thus, ensuring the entry hazards will stay on the field.

    Togekiss: This thing was never really a problem to begin with since Rotom-H, Blissey, and Tyranitar don't take much from it at all depending upon the set. Since I have added extra Special Defense to Hippowdon, it is even easier to handle and gives me a good chance of getting Stealth Rock up early where I used to have to switch if I was flinched turn one against a lead variant. The worst version I see of these is Thunder Wave with Nasty Plot, but Blissey can usually squeeze a Toxic in or I can have Tyranitar revenge kill it if it once it is a little bit weaker.

    Tyranitar: Tyranitar can be scary, but the collective synergy and strength of this team stands up to it well. Dragon Dance Tyranitar gets it's attack weakened by Gyarados and Hippowdon can take hits from it as long as it isn't over +1 or has Life Orb. If it has Life Orb then it is on a timer and doesn't pose a huge threat to sweep my team. Additionally, it has to contend with Toxic Spikes, which it really doesn't appreciate. Worst case scenario is that I have a speed tie with my Choice Scarf Tyranitar. Since not all Tyranitar run max Speed, that isn't always a bad thing. Choice Band is the only other scary version, but it can't take out anything in one shot, bar Rotom-H.

    Weavile: Weavile is pretty easy to deal with. My first option is Gyarados as long as Stealth Rock isn't up. If it is up, I will have to assess what my opponent's remaining team is and see if it is the right time to spring Gyarados in. If not, then Forretress handles it pretty well. It has to be careful of Swords Dance Low Kick, but then I can easily pull of a Rapid Spin and reduce its Attack with Gyarados. Weavile doesn't see much action against a team like this since it takes so much damage from every entry hazard.

    Yanmega: Yanmega isn't much of a problem at all. Blissey takes care of pretty much every set. Hippowdon doesn't take much damage from leads and I can set up Stealth Rock. Rotom-H resists both STAB moves, but if it is Tinted Lens then it will take a lot more than I bargained for. Tyranitar can deal with those variants, but this really isn't seen much. Nor does it do much damage to this team.

    Zapdos: Offensive Zapdos is a joy to play against. Blissey is obviously the first choice to switch to since it takes nothing from it. Hippowdon can also take on Zapdos quite well and decently before I added all the Special Defense. Hippowdon is my option if I either don't have Stealth Rock up for some reason or if Blissey is no longer around. Tyranitar can also deal with offensive Zapdos, but I rather not take much damage from something that can do much to the team in general.
  2. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,159
    This team is pretty darn solid. It is not perfect, however, because you flat out lose to last Pokemon Cursers (CurseLax), CroCune, and ESPECIALLY Cradily, who doesn't even have to be a last Pokemon. Because of this, you should consider a user of Perish Song or Haze. Celebi is the most reliable user of Perish Song and Milotic is the most reliable user of Haze. Milotic could theoretically work over Gyarados, but then you are a bit more weak to Nasty Plot Ape and LO Dragonite.

    Good luck!
  3. ssbbm

    ssbbm

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    1,020
    The main problem I see with this team is its weakness to NP Ape. It OHKOes everything on your team bar Gyarados, and if your Gyarados is weakened already, then you pretty much have to rely on trying to wear it down using LO Recoil + Sandstorm.
    To remedy this, I recommend running 160 SpD EVs on Gyarados. This allows it to survive a NP Boosted Fire Blast after 2 SR switch-ins and 1 turn of leftover recovery. Admittedly, though, Gyarados is used on your team to check a bunch of physical offensive threats.
    All in all, very nice team.
  4. Kevin Garrett

    Kevin Garrett is a competitor
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 12 Championis a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2008
    Messages:
    3,292
    Curselax and Crocune are no problem because I can phaze them and force them to enter the battle late either asleep or badly damaged. Cradily can only beat me if it uses Seed Bomb since Hippowdon can stall Rock Slide out all day. Luckily, Cradily is a pretty random threat that isn't used much.
  5. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,159
    You won't be able to Roar out CroCune if it's the last Pokemon. Seriously, if someone has CroCune and figures out that you don't have a Trick or Perish Song user, they can let everything on their team die, and bring out CroCune and sweep. That's at least what I usually do, ha. It doesn't help that nothing on your team hurts it.
  6. Kevin Garrett

    Kevin Garrett is a competitor
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 12 Championis a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2008
    Messages:
    3,292
    You don't understand, all I need to do is phaze it out when I have all my Spikes out to make it weak. It will have to Rest at some point or be taken out by Rotom-H or Tyranitar at the end.
  7. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,159
    All right...

    Also, beware of Gliscor Baton Pass teams. They are becoming more common and you have no way to stop them, especially if it has dual screens. Of course, those teams are designed to shit on stall, so I wouldn't be surprised if you have trouble with them.
  8. Curtains

    Curtains

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,123
    Enough of the noob rates, baton pass gliscor? come on guys. This is a great team and i played you under many alts on ladder and won 1 and lost many,and there is not much to say.This team has all threats covered well. Just watch out for gyarados plus scarf ttar combo's. I would give rotom some special defense ev's to take on starmie better.The defense is all ready there with gyara and hippo so you might can lighten up on the def because rotom cant take many hits with hydro pump.This team is a 6-0 machine. Nice team.
  9. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,159
    All right, so mentioning a legitimate threat to this team is a "noob rate"? Uh, ok. Most stall teams that I have faced have an Ice Beam user somewhere to limit the amount of boosts an opposing Gliscor can pass, so he should consider giving Blissey Ice Beam to help handle them. This also has utility in the fact that it is able to break substitutes of things like Sub-Split Rotom and Gengar, who are not exactly easy for this team to face.
  10. Curtains

    Curtains

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,123
    Tell me.. What the flyin fuck is going to sweep this team?
  11. Kevin Garrett

    Kevin Garrett is a competitor
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 12 Championis a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2008
    Messages:
    3,292
    Nasty Plot Ape is dangerous, but the good thing about it is that it can't have every move to beat me. It suffers from the four move slot syndrome. It needs Stealth Rock on the field and Grass Knot to realistically beat Gyarados. It needs Vacuum Wave to beat Tyranitar and Close Combat to beat Blissey. Since they all run Fire Blast, it will be missing something.
  12. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,159
    Uhhh, how about +4 Metagross with a moveset of Meteor Mash, Zen Headbutt, Earthquake, and ThunderPunch. This thing is practically a staple on Gliscor Baton Pass Teams, and absolutely nothing is stopping Gliscor from passing Swords Dances to it. Ice Beam would be wise on Blissey over Toxic, not only for this, but for Substitute Rotom, Gengar, as well as a way of hitting Dragonite for 4X super effective damage.
  13. Curtains

    Curtains

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,123
    And kg will use splash for 7 turns of set up? Have you played with stall?Gyarados pounds gliscor with waterfall and hits its switch in w/spikes damage. Any team thats relying on this strategy is probably not well made and will get 6-0ed easily by this team. If gliscor was the 1 man army against stall then superluigibro9098 would be #1 on leaderboard and gliscor and metagross would be bucking for position for 1 and 2 usage. Its not a threat.
  14. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    2,430
    Dual Screen --> Gliscor ---> Metagross WILL sweep this team all day.. but I gathered that strategy is "cheap" and frowned upon. There really isn't anything that can be done against it here.

    Other than that, this is probably THE best and most current "heavy" stall team I've seen! Love the EV spread choices, and pretty much everything is covered. I normally always play Reflect over Shadow Ball but you said it works for Breloom, which is reason enough to keep it.

    Also, other stall teams will be a bitch to take out.. but stall vs. stall comes down to the batter player usually. Personally I always try to keep one super bulky stat up sweeper for situations like that, but there is no room for it on this team.

    Be weary of last man Crocune however. It sweeps pretty easily since you can't damage it for shit unless you use excellent prediction to pressure it out for spikes damage. Probably the only real threat I see.
  15. Brammi

    Brammi

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Messages:
    1,769
    I can see this team being littered around the ladder and tour from now until the very end of DPP. I've played it once where I got embarrassed as it is the kind of team, which as you stated in the intro, just gets the upper hand and is unrelenting. Super Mario Bro does raise an important issue for this team and one that can cause trouble for every player. That is the completely stupid and situational threats that can cause trouble. What happens if you see a no recoil Mamoswine using Blizzard which unleashes a superpower onto your Blissey? (Sorry that was a stupid one but I hope it relays the message)

    Basically what I am saying is that this team could lose to the very reason why it is so good. That is that it has a set answer to everything and every variation of that thing to the point where it is so clinical it appears to be unable to adapt. I see alot of stall teams that have a panic button. Something that can transform into a last ditch effort to get the upper hand and snatch a victory from the jaws of defeat.

    Basically the crux of what I am saying is that giving this team out to the greater community could be both a blessing and a curse. A blessing that such a good team has been released into the public arena and a curse that in your descriptions there is no adaptability in the team should something accidentally fall. Well I'm sure there is, but it isn't outlined in the RMT which means that the readers hoping to pick this team up and use it to great success as seems to be your wish are going to be stuffed if things don't go with the precision that they think it will.


    That is a great team. Well Done.
  16. Denchura

    Denchura

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2010
    Messages:
    27
    I have some questions, what do you do without perish song?

    That's the main reason i gave up on stall, once my celibi died it turned into a pp stall out for 20 minutes, not fun.

    Also, your Opinions on milotic and jirachi for a stall team?
  17. Brammi

    Brammi

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Messages:
    1,769
    How is a PP stall not fun. It is a true battle of wits because often it comes down to working out what the logical sequence of moves is.
  18. Towelie

    Towelie

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    Messages:
    665
    this is a pretty awesome team obviously, but it makes me sad that electivire made your threat list but lo aerodactyl didnt :(
    it basically 2hkos everything on your team, and what it cant 2hko (hippo, forry) get fucked over by taunt and with roost its a pretty big deal. ya, you can pp stall it out of stone edge, but taunt alone screws over blissey, hippo, and forry. i know no one uses it but it is a threat but youre good enough to play around it through pp stalling stone edge with intelligent switches. anyways, awesome team and congrats on your success w/ it.
  19. mtr

    mtr

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2009
    Messages:
    1,773
    Not much to say here, after all this is the definitive stall team of the Post-Dragons era.

    I would use CM/Wish Jirachi over Tyranitar: it is a jack of all trades, checking Crocune, passing Wish to Gyarados to heal it of Stealth Rock and various other damages, passing Wish to Forry to try to give it more longevity, acting as a makeshift stallbreaker in a pinch, and so on.

    But then again, it makes it harder for you to spin, which is huge.
  20. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Messages:
    8,144
    ***** I freaking love this (and I'm an offensive player). I also LOVE the chess pieces-- brilliant!

    After this I think it's ironic that whether you go with Super-heavy offense or the extreme will stall, the goal is to take the advantage and minimize prediction-- one by always finding outs to any situation, and the other by trying to destroy the opponent no matter what he does. Anyway, great write up!
  21. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,246
    The old NP MixApe handily sweeps you if TTar is down. Even Gyarados isn't safe due to Grass Knot OHKOing it after SR. Thankfully, they aren't that common any more (I really wonder why), but if they give you problems, just stick 152 SpD EVs so Grass Knot can never OHKO you after SR. The new EV spread should look like 252 HP/104 Def/152 SpD with the same nature. Anyways, great team.
  22. Playa

    Playa
    is a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    Messages:
    438
    Hello user Kevin Garrett.

    This is obviously quite a solid stall team although I would like you to convert to Earthworm’s build as it is much better. This would mean replacing Tyranitar for Heatran, moving Forretress to the lead position and using Will-o-wisp on Rotom, as other than that, it’s an exact replica. I guess at such a high level every top player is bound to run similar teams. Anyway, the Heatran set is:

    Heatran @ Leftovers
    Flash Fire | Calm
    252 HP / 4 SpAtk / 252 SpDef
    Roar | Protect | Flamethrower | Earthpower

    Heatran will suit this team much better as it gives the team a solid switch in to all forms of Jirachi and utilising Roar and Protect really builds up residual damage. Heatran just works better.

    If I could rate I would give this 3 stars. Very nice work indeed.
  23. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Messages:
    8,144
    They're not common because of scarf users (and pokemon who are simply faster) Infernape simply does not have the speed to make use of NP. Not even Azelf has the speed to make good use of NP. The only pokemon who succeeded with Swords Dance/Nasty Plot in Gen 4 without Priority/Speed Boost were Garchomp and Manaphy, and they had speed AND toughness to make it work, while having Dragon and Water STAB respectively (the best 2 STAB types in the game).

    NP Infernape is frankly not that good, and really not all that relevant a threat to consider imo.
  24. Heist

    Heist
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winneris a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    1,317
    Actually, you cannot rule out a team being weak to a threat because it is "not that good". Electivire is not that good, but on the ladder it is still a legitimate threat.
  25. Conflict

    Conflict And who are you, the proud lord said That I must bow so low?
    is a Pre-Contributoris a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2009
    Messages:
    701
    Yeah KG that team you have here is pretty much standard stall right now (first 5 members + Filler most of the time) and it looks overall comprimising.
    The Pokes and sets are all wonderfully complementing each other.

    The only thing i can do now is to primarily improve some of your Ev-Splits:

    Forretress: EVs: 252 HP/16 Def/240 SDef; Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)

    I find this EV-Spread much more effective since you gain the maximum overall stats. This spread is made by husk - i believe - so it has to be good!

    Blissey: 24 HP/252 Def/232 SDef; Calm

    Maybe consider this spread for Blissey since it gives you a Leftovers-number. Eh and you can run Wish, Protect/Softboiled, Healbell, Seismic Toss on Blissey (its legit with HGSS) when you dont use Toxic often....

    Gyarados: I encourage you to not use that ineffective EV-Spread from Shrang. Use this much more effective Spread: 248 Hp/196 Def/64 SDef; Careful Nature.

    ---------
    Some suggestions:

    Have you ever considered:
    - using Crunch on Hippowdon over Roar? (Azelf, Ggar, etc. pp.)
    - using Ice Beam/Shadow Ball/Flame thrower on Blissey over Toxic? (Gengar °,°, more PP against Substallzappy or such stuff in pinch situations.)
    - using Resttalk-Raikou instead of Tyranitar in the last slot? (Deals with Crocune, CMRachi, Starmie, Gengar, etc. - but more vulnerable against Curselax albeit somewhat rare)
    - using Choice Scarf Heracross (with Pursuit) over Tyranitar? (Moar Power! And helps against pesky Grass types.... and it works better against SubGar!)
    - using Spiritomb with Pursuit and Curse instead of Tyranitar? (Pursuit so it can deal with the Ghosts and Psychciy like Ttar did and Curse for.... laste Poke-SetUppers.)

    Just some ideas i am throwing out here....

    Just my 50 cent....

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)